Lew Hodgett wrote:
Subject

If you want to show your woodworking skills, that's one thing.

If you want to shill for Disney as the price of admission to view your
work,


I went to take a peek and his site tried to get me to join the Navy. : )




then perform aerial intercourse on a rotating annular spheroid. Lew

If you want to shill for Disney as the price of admission to view your
work, then perform aerial intercourse on a rotating annular spheroid.
Lew

...."perform aerial intercourse on a rotating annular spheroid" ??
Not enough coffee yet today to visually wrap my head around this one,
but then I have a very imaginative mind so that may be a good thing.

Yeah, asking for criticism (quote: Criticism ok) then throwing a temper

tantrum when criticism is received (albeit snarky and uncalled-for criticism)

doesn't leave an observer with a good impression of Brian.



Well, I was actually the first one who jumped in with a "Flame" for Tommy boy, who had actually encouraged me to do so with his comment about expecting flames for his post. Maybe I encouraged Garage boy by coming down on his side, which isn't always the case, I have trashed his stuff before as well.

Tommy has the right to his opinion, and criticism was requested but I felt it was over the top in terms of harshness (is that a word?)and more denigrating than necessary so I jumped in to provide some defense, assuming Garage boy would likely not.

I never did see Tommy's work (can't see fricking ABPW via my Google reader) and I loved Sam Maloof, he was a sweet and talented man and I learned a few things from him over the years but I have no love for that swoopy design type stuff so likely would be unimpressed.

On 7/3/2013 12:18 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:


Yeah, asking for criticism (quote: Criticism ok) then throwing a temper

tantrum when criticism is received (albeit snarky and uncalled-for criticism)

doesn't leave an observer with a good impression of Brian.



Well, I was actually the first one who jumped in with a "Flame" for Tommy boy, who had actually encouraged me to do so with his comment about expecting flames for his post. Maybe I encouraged Garage boy by coming down on his side, which isn't always the case, I have trashed his stuff before as well.

Tommy has the right to his opinion, and criticism was requested but I felt it was over the top in terms of harshness (is that a word?)and more denigrating than necessary so I jumped in to provide some defense, assuming Garage boy would likely not.

I never did see Tommy's work (can't see fricking ABPW via my Google reader) and I loved Sam Maloof, he was a sweet and talented man and I learned a few things from him over the years but I have no love for that swoopy design type stuff so likely would be unimpressed.


I don't look at workmanship based on my taste, I look at it purely as
what went into it.

Tommy Boy produced some nice work.

I was not impressed by Brian's work, there were a few things that I
found out of place, the lacewood was beautiful, but not well done, since
the glue up put a piece that distracted.. If I had no more lacewood, I
would have move that to the outside where it would be less noticable
instead of breaking up the pattern.

I am troubled by some of Brian's machine work, especially tablesaw work.
I keep seeing the leading edge lifting, and in my opinion, his blade is
too low, leading to some of the burning we see, and a huge potential for
kick back. I keep the blade high, except with ply to avoid the
potential, and the wood near the blade never lifts..

As far as Brian's design, I had no problem with it, only the execution.



--
Jeff

On 7/3/2013 11:18 AM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:


Yeah, asking for criticism (quote: Criticism ok) then throwing a temper

tantrum when criticism is received (albeit snarky and uncalled-for criticism)

doesn't leave an observer with a good impression of Brian.





Snip I felt it was over the top in terms of harshness (is that a word?)


As much and as valid of a word as functionality and or utilization. All
can be used in their more simple form with the same meaning.

On 7/3/2013 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:


I am troubled by some of Brian's machine work, especially tablesaw work.
I keep seeing the leading edge lifting, and in my opinion, his blade is
too low, leading to some of the burning we see, and a huge potential for
kick back. I keep the blade high, except with ply to avoid the
potential, and the wood near the blade never lifts..

As far as Brian's design, I had no problem with it, only the execution.




I think I would have cut the beveled edge on the TS instead of using the
tilted router table fence.

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:59:16 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:
On 7/3/2013 12:18 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:





Yeah, asking for criticism (quote: Criticism ok) then throwing a temper



tantrum when criticism is received (albeit snarky and uncalled-for criticism)



doesn't leave an observer with a good impression of Brian.







Well, I was actually the first one who jumped in with a "Flame" for Tommy boy, who had actually encouraged me to do so with his comment about expecting flames for his post. Maybe I encouraged Garage boy by coming down on his side, which isn't always the case, I have trashed his stuff before as well.



Tommy has the right to his opinion, and criticism was requested but I felt it was over the top in terms of harshness (is that a word?)and more denigrating than necessary so I jumped in to provide some defense, assuming Garage boy would likely not.



I never did see Tommy's work (can't see fricking ABPW via my Google reader) and I loved Sam Maloof, he was a sweet and talented man and I learned a few things from him over the years but I have no love for that swoopy design type stuff so likely would be unimpressed.





I don't look at workmanship based on my taste, I look at it purely as

what went into it.

Donkey sh*t. You judge "what went into it" based on your taste.


Tommy Boy produced some nice work.

I am confident that he presented what was his hand picked favorites. I found them to be weak and uninspiring. His best of the bunch was the Maloof knock-off chair but this didn't demonstrate the very trait that he crapped on me for. Being "unimaginative".


I was not impressed by Brian's work, there were a few things that I

found out of place, the lacewood was beautiful, but not well done, since

the glue up put a piece that distracted..


Now were getting somewhere. Actual useful criticism.

Could you point out the board you find distracting? Below is a picture of the top:

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/pictu..._table/002.jpg

If I had no more lacewood, I

would have move that to the outside where it would be less noticable

instead of breaking up the pattern.

What pattern?




I am troubled by some of Brian's machine work, especially tablesaw work.

I keep seeing the leading edge lifting,

Again, useful criticism. Could you point out the videos and time frame where a board "lifted"? I remember a piece of ply lifting a little but nothing dramatic.

and in my opinion, his blade is

too low, leading to some of the burning we see, and a huge potential for

kick back.

A blade too low leads to kickback? That's news to me.

I keep the blade high, except with ply to avoid the

potential, and the wood near the blade never lifts..


A blade that is excessively high is more dangerous than one that is too low (but still cuts all the way through).

Could you elaborate here?





As far as Brian's design, I had no problem with it, only the execution.

Finally a complement (I think). Thank you








--

Jeff

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 1:25:37 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/3/2013 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:





I am troubled by some of Brian's machine work, especially tablesaw work.

I keep seeing the leading edge lifting, and in my opinion, his blade is

too low, leading to some of the burning we see, and a huge potential for

kick back. I keep the blade high, except with ply to avoid the

potential, and the wood near the blade never lifts..



As far as Brian's design, I had no problem with it, only the execution.









I think I would have cut the beveled edge on the TS instead of using the

tilted router table fence.

Why? It may be a faster maneuver but you need to swing your blade over and re-align to 90 degrees. (Here is where you tell me you trust your positive stop and we have a lengthy discussion about sawdust gumming up the works. )

Most woodworkers despise tilting their blade.

On 7/3/2013 12:36 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:59:16 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:
On 7/3/2013 12:18 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:





Yeah, asking for criticism (quote: Criticism ok) then throwing a temper



tantrum when criticism is received (albeit snarky and uncalled-for criticism)



doesn't leave an observer with a good impression of Brian.







Well, I was actually the first one who jumped in with a "Flame" for Tommy boy, who had actually encouraged me to do so with his comment about expecting flames for his post. Maybe I encouraged Garage boy by coming down on his side, which isn't always the case, I have trashed his stuff before as well.



Tommy has the right to his opinion, and criticism was requested but I felt it was over the top in terms of harshness (is that a word?)and more denigrating than necessary so I jumped in to provide some defense, assuming Garage boy would likely not.



I never did see Tommy's work (can't see fricking ABPW via my Google reader) and I loved Sam Maloof, he was a sweet and talented man and I learned a few things from him over the years but I have no love for that swoopy design type stuff so likely would be unimpressed.





I don't look at workmanship based on my taste, I look at it purely as

what went into it.

Donkey sh*t. You judge "what went into it" based on your taste.


Tommy Boy produced some nice work.

I am confident that he presented what was his hand picked favorites. I found them to be weak and uninspiring. His best of the bunch was the Maloof knock-off chair but this didn't demonstrate the very trait that he crapped on me for. Being "unimaginative".


I was not impressed by Brian's work, there were a few things that I

found out of place, the lacewood was beautiful, but not well done, since

the glue up put a piece that distracted..


Now were getting somewhere. Actual useful criticism.

Could you point out the board you find distracting? Below is a picture of the top:

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/pictu..._table/002.jpg


To easily understand, you would need to repost the original picture, the
one that this link has replaced. But it shows up better in the first
video opening shot below.

The right middle top board here.

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/video.php?video=v91

On 7/3/2013 1:01 PM, wrote:
....

Most woodworkers despise tilting their blade.

From what data did you create that "statistic/fact"????

I, for one, do it quite frequently and like Leon trust the stops (and
have never found reason not to).

--

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:17:39 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/3/2013 12:36 PM, wrote:

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:59:16 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:

On 7/3/2013 12:18 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:











Yeah, asking for criticism (quote: Criticism ok) then throwing a temper







tantrum when criticism is received (albeit snarky and uncalled-for criticism)







doesn't leave an observer with a good impression of Brian.















Well, I was actually the first one who jumped in with a "Flame" for Tommy boy, who had actually encouraged me to do so with his comment about expecting flames for his post. Maybe I encouraged Garage boy by coming down on his side, which isn't always the case, I have trashed his stuff before as well.







Tommy has the right to his opinion, and criticism was requested but I felt it was over the top in terms of harshness (is that a word?)and more denigrating than necessary so I jumped in to provide some defense, assuming Garage boy would likely not.







I never did see Tommy's work (can't see fricking ABPW via my Google reader) and I loved Sam Maloof, he was a sweet and talented man and I learned a few things from him over the years but I have no love for that swoopy design type stuff so likely would be unimpressed.











I don't look at workmanship based on my taste, I look at it purely as



what went into it.



Donkey sh*t. You judge "what went into it" based on your taste.





Tommy Boy produced some nice work.



I am confident that he presented what was his hand picked favorites. I found them to be weak and uninspiring. His best of the bunch was the Maloof knock-off chair but this didn't demonstrate the very trait that he crapped on me for. Being "unimaginative".





I was not impressed by Brian's work, there were a few things that I



found out of place, the lacewood was beautiful, but not well done, since



the glue up put a piece that distracted..





Now were getting somewhere. Actual useful criticism.



Could you point out the board you find distracting? Below is a picture of the top:



http://www.garagewoodworks.com/pictu..._table/002.jpg





To easily understand, you would need to repost the original picture, the

one that this link has replaced.

Like I told you when you originally asked - it was an artifact of the photography.

Nothing wrong with the top. It is very pleasing to look at.

But it shows up better in the first

video opening shot below.



The right middle top board here.

It's all in how the light hits the wood. It is a very pleasing top to look at.




http://www.garagewoodworks.com/video.php?video=v91

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:17:50 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/3/2013 1:01 PM, wrote:

...



Most woodworkers despise tilting their blade.



From what data did you create that "statistic/fact"????

It is admittedly a based on limited data from reading forums and commentary.

Take it for what it is but it shouldn't come as a shock.





I, for one, do it quite frequently and like Leon trust the stops (and

have never found reason not to).

Good on you.




--

On 7/3/2013 1:01 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 1:25:37 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/3/2013 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:





I am troubled by some of Brian's machine work, especially tablesaw work.

I keep seeing the leading edge lifting, and in my opinion, his blade is

too low, leading to some of the burning we see, and a huge potential for

kick back. I keep the blade high, except with ply to avoid the

potential, and the wood near the blade never lifts..



As far as Brian's design, I had no problem with it, only the execution.









I think I would have cut the beveled edge on the TS instead of using the

tilted router table fence.

Why? It may be a faster maneuver but you need to swing your blade over and re-align to 90 degrees. (Here is where you tell me you trust your positive stop and we have a lengthy discussion about sawdust gumming up the works. )

Well in all honesty, I use a tilt box to verify that the positive stops
are accurate with in .1 degrees and my rips produce square edges good
enough for glue up. This was true for my old Jet cabinet saw and my new
ICS SawStop.


Most woodworkers despise tilting their blade.

Well I will agree that many do but that is all in learning how to set
the saw up so that you can trust its settings and stops. Personally I
despise using chamfer bits on my router table. Too much set up time
vs, tilting my blade.

I understand your concerns, been there and done that, but I have quite a
bit more experience than you and have learned over the years what works
better and how to work efficiently.

On 7/3/2013 1:22 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:17:39 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/3/2013 12:36 PM, wrote:

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:59:16 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:

On 7/3/2013 12:18 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:











Yeah, asking for criticism (quote: Criticism ok) then throwing a temper







tantrum when criticism is received (albeit snarky and uncalled-for criticism)







doesn't leave an observer with a good impression of Brian.















Well, I was actually the first one who jumped in with a "Flame" for Tommy boy, who had actually encouraged me to do so with his comment about expecting flames for his post. Maybe I encouraged Garage boy by coming down on his side, which isn't always the case, I have trashed his stuff before as well.







Tommy has the right to his opinion, and criticism was requested but I felt it was over the top in terms of harshness (is that a word?)and more denigrating than necessary so I jumped in to provide some defense, assuming Garage boy would likely not.







I never did see Tommy's work (can't see fricking ABPW via my Google reader) and I loved Sam Maloof, he was a sweet and talented man and I learned a few things from him over the years but I have no love for that swoopy design type stuff so likely would be unimpressed.











I don't look at workmanship based on my taste, I look at it purely as



what went into it.



Donkey sh*t. You judge "what went into it" based on your taste.





Tommy Boy produced some nice work.



I am confident that he presented what was his hand picked favorites. I found them to be weak and uninspiring. His best of the bunch was the Maloof knock-off chair but this didn't demonstrate the very trait that he crapped on me for. Being "unimaginative".





I was not impressed by Brian's work, there were a few things that I



found out of place, the lacewood was beautiful, but not well done, since



the glue up put a piece that distracted..





Now were getting somewhere. Actual useful criticism.



Could you point out the board you find distracting? Below is a picture of the top:



http://www.garagewoodworks.com/pictu..._table/002.jpg





To easily understand, you would need to repost the original picture, the

one that this link has replaced.

Like I told you when you originally asked - it was an artifact of the photography.

Nothing wrong with the top. It is very pleasing to look at.

But it shows up better in the first

video opening shot below.



The right middle top board here.

It's all in how the light hits the wood. It is a very pleasing top to look at.

I am sure it looks great but that first picture was not as flattering as
the current.

On 7/3/2013 12:36 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:59:16 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:
....

... the lacewood was beautiful, ...
the glue up put a piece that distracted..


Now were getting somewhere. Actual useful criticism.
Could you point out the board you find distracting? Below is a picture of the top:

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/pictu..._table/002.jpg

It's not an individual board, it's that the four don't go together
well--there's too much difference in color and grain pattern between
each such that the juxtaposition is distracting.

It looks as though it were two boards and that you put one on the to
edges and the other in the middle two. W/o more material from either of
the two selections to try to match, I'd have probably veneered the top
from the board that is the two outers and, perhaps, laid it as an inset
panel framed by the cherry or some other way to even out the disparity
that shows up as is...

If I had no more lacewood, I
would have move that to the outside where it would be less noticable
instead of breaking up the pattern.

What pattern?

The continuity of similar grain/color from one piece to the next as
discussed above...


....

As far as Brian's design, I had no problem with it, only the execution.

Finally a complement (I think). Thank you
....

I think other than the above on better grain-matching it would have been
improved if it were made to look a little "lighter" on its feet--it
seems a little heavy to me.

I'd have tapered the legs a little more and certainly have lightened-up
the edges of the top by at least a chamfer if not actually thinning the
edge by a bottom taper or using a fully-shaped edge. The hard square
corners are a kick in the eyes, too, imo.

While on grain, quarter-sawn material for the legs would eliminate the
different grain pattern shown on the front and front rear legs--the rear
one looks as though it is close from what can tell; the front has face
on one side, edge on the other that doesn't match well...

Tage Frid's first book (and I think it's also in Hoadley's) has a good
demo of choosing grain direction for legs to make them nearly symmetric
from each side...

--

On 7/3/2013 1:26 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:17:50 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/3/2013 1:01 PM, wrote:

...



Most woodworkers despise tilting their blade.
....
From what data did you create that "statistic/fact"????

It is admittedly a based on limited data from reading forums and commentary.

Take it for what it is but it shouldn't come as a shock.
....

Which is, imo, worthless...unless one has a saw that is poorly made so
that stops aren't reproducible--in which case it probably isn't very
easy to rely on it for anything else, either.

I don't see why it shouldn't (be a surprise/shock, that is)...as I think
we've discussed before, there's a whole history of woodworking long
before the 'net and forums even existed and it seems most of the ones
around now are pretty much only relatively newcomers w/ little if any
actual production experience.

--

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:32:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/3/2013 1:01 PM, wrote:

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 1:25:37 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:

On 7/3/2013 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:











I am troubled by some of Brian's machine work, especially tablesaw work.



I keep seeing the leading edge lifting, and in my opinion, his blade is



too low, leading to some of the burning we see, and a huge potential for



kick back. I keep the blade high, except with ply to avoid the



potential, and the wood near the blade never lifts..







As far as Brian's design, I had no problem with it, only the execution.



















I think I would have cut the beveled edge on the TS instead of using the



tilted router table fence.



Why? It may be a faster maneuver but you need to swing your blade over and re-align to 90 degrees. (Here is where you tell me you trust your positive stop and we have a lengthy discussion about sawdust gumming up the works. )



Well in all honesty, I use a tilt box to verify that the positive stops

are accurate with in .1 degrees and my rips produce square edges good

enough for glue up. This was true for my old Jet cabinet saw and my new

ICS SawStop.





Most woodworkers despise tilting their blade.



Well I will agree that many do but that is all in learning how to set

the saw up so that you can trust its settings and stops. Personally I

despise using chamfer bits on my router table. Too much set up time

vs, tilting my blade.

Which is exactly why I didn't use a chamfer bit. Tilting the router fence and using a straight bit is much faster (In my experience) than tilting and re-aligning a fence. And an insignificant point to pick on. Agree?





I understand your concerns, been there and done that, but I have quite a

bit more experience than you and have learned over the years what works

better and how to work efficiently.

You are incredibly hung up on "experience". That's twice you've used this one.

As a Ph.D. chemist I have met some incredibly bad chemists that had more "experience" than me. And I have met M.S. level chemists that have rocked my world. It's meaningless and arbitrary and I don't understand your attraction to it.

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:34:47 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/3/2013 1:22 PM, wrote:

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:17:39 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:

On 7/3/2013 12:36 PM, wrote:



On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:59:16 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:



On 7/3/2013 12:18 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:























Yeah, asking for criticism (quote: Criticism ok) then throwing a temper















tantrum when criticism is received (albeit snarky and uncalled-for criticism)















doesn't leave an observer with a good impression of Brian.































Well, I was actually the first one who jumped in with a "Flame" for Tommy boy, who had actually encouraged me to do so with his comment about expecting flames for his post. Maybe I encouraged Garage boy by coming down on his side, which isn't always the case, I have trashed his stuff before as well.















Tommy has the right to his opinion, and criticism was requested but I felt it was over the top in terms of harshness (is that a word?)and more denigrating than necessary so I jumped in to provide some defense, assuming Garage boy would likely not.















I never did see Tommy's work (can't see fricking ABPW via my Google reader) and I loved Sam Maloof, he was a sweet and talented man and I learned a few things from him over the years but I have no love for that swoopy design type stuff so likely would be unimpressed.























I don't look at workmanship based on my taste, I look at it purely as







what went into it.







Donkey sh*t. You judge "what went into it" based on your taste.











Tommy Boy produced some nice work.







I am confident that he presented what was his hand picked favorites. I found them to be weak and uninspiring. His best of the bunch was the Maloof knock-off chair but this didn't demonstrate the very trait that he crapped on me for. Being "unimaginative".











I was not impressed by Brian's work, there were a few things that I







found out of place, the lacewood was beautiful, but not well done, since







the glue up put a piece that distracted..











Now were getting somewhere. Actual useful criticism.







Could you point out the board you find distracting? Below is a picture of the top:







http://www.garagewoodworks.com/pictu..._table/002.jpg











To easily understand, you would need to repost the original picture, the



one that this link has replaced.



Like I told you when you originally asked - it was an artifact of the photography.



Nothing wrong with the top. It is very pleasing to look at.



But it shows up better in the first



video opening shot below.







The right middle top board here.



It's all in how the light hits the wood. It is a very pleasing top to look at.



I am sure it looks great but that first picture was not as flattering as

the current.

I have a few of myself that are like that.

On 7/3/2013 1:44 PM, dpb wrote:
On 7/3/2013 1:26 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:17:50 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/3/2013 1:01 PM, wrote:

...



Most woodworkers despise tilting their blade.
...
From what data did you create that "statistic/fact"????

It is admittedly a based on limited data from reading forums and
commentary.

Take it for what it is but it shouldn't come as a shock.
...

Which is, imo, worthless...unless one has a saw that is poorly made so
that stops aren't reproducible--in which case it probably isn't very
easy to rely on it for anything else, either.

Brian has a perfectly good saw, he is just not comfortable in trusting
his stops.

On 7/3/2013 1:46 PM, wrote:




Most woodworkers despise tilting their blade.



Well I will agree that many do but that is all in learning how to set

the saw up so that you can trust its settings and stops. Personally I

despise using chamfer bits on my router table. Too much set up time

vs, tilting my blade.

Which is exactly why I didn't use a chamfer bit. Tilting the router fence and using a straight bit is much faster (In my experience) than tilting and re-aligning a fence. And an insignificant point to pick on. Agree?



LOL, I hope you meant to say,

Tilting the router fence and using a straight bit is much faster (In my
experience) than tilting and re-aligning a "blade".


We work with the methods that we get the best results.
I have been down the road you are going. You will be a much better
woodworker because of that, years down the road. You experiment, you
learn. You obviously put a great deal of thought into your tilting
router fence. You see value in using the fence that way. We were just
kicking around different methods of how we would have done some things
differently, you can learn from that. Perhaps you will realize What
tolerances are acceptable/noticeable and which are not. Some times
being AR gets in the way of efficiency, I am an expert on that. ;~)

Swingman and have built several kitchen in the past. In his shop he
cuts dado's in the backs of the rails and stiles for the face frames and
assembles the face frames. In my I cut the panels from the sheet goods
which will fit into those dado's in the back of the face frames, and the
sheet goods get dado's also. Eventually we bring all of the face frames
and cabinets panels together and assemble the cabinets. We have to
trust out machinery for the parts to fit perfectly every time.
So in that example being equally AR is a good thing. ;~)

Keep the imagination going! When I was 19 years old I had been
interested in wood working for half my life. I was self taught and at
that age designed and build a "contraption" that had a back fence to
place my wood against and it had an adjustable height moveable fence
that pivoted 180 degrees. The adjustable fence sat on top of the wood
and acted as a guide for my circular saw. Basically I was trying to
duplicate how a RAS operated. It worked great. That was 1974, long
before SCMS existed.

On 7/3/2013 1:48 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 2:34:47 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:


Snip


The right middle top board here.



It's all in how the light hits the wood. It is a very pleasing top to look at.



I am sure it looks great but that first picture was not as flattering as

the current.

I have a few of myself that are like that.



LOL... Do you recall the first time I think I ****ed you off? ;~)

You wee proudly showing off one of your earlier projects and along side
the project there you stood. I asked if your wife insisted on you being
in the shot. LOL

To this day I hate being in pictures of my finished work. I want the
audience to focus on what is important in the picture.

Now having said that, about 18 months ago Nailshooter, Swingman and
their significant others were at our house visiting at Christmas time.
Nailshooter took what I considered an embarrassing number of detailed,
up close, and personal pictures of the "big pantry cabinet" that I had
just completed. He insisted in me being in one of those pictures.

And now that I have mentioned this and if he sees this post I can
probably expect to see him post that picture. ;~(

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 3:10:45 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/3/2013 1:46 PM, wrote:









Most woodworkers despise tilting their blade.







Well I will agree that many do but that is all in learning how to set



the saw up so that you can trust its settings and stops. Personally I



despise using chamfer bits on my router table. Too much set up time



vs, tilting my blade.



Which is exactly why I didn't use a chamfer bit. Tilting the router fence and using a straight bit is much faster (In my experience) than tilting and re-aligning a fence. And an insignificant point to pick on. Agree?







LOL, I hope you meant to say,



Tilting the router fence and using a straight bit is much faster (In my

experience) than tilting and re-aligning a "blade".

Yes. I caught it after I hit send.

I'm going to end this here, unless someone really provokes me and say that the reason that I keep coming back to the wrec. (around 9-10 years ago I started posting - yeah!) is because I value yours, Swingman's and a few other's input. I should have ignored the mud throwing (which in my opinion wasn't constructive criticism or useful in any way - maybe I should have been more specific?).

I'll be back!










We work with the methods that we get the best results.

I have been down the road you are going. You will be a much better

woodworker because of that, years down the road. You experiment, you

learn. You obviously put a great deal of thought into your tilting

router fence. You see value in using the fence that way. We were just

kicking around different methods of how we would have done some things

differently, you can learn from that. Perhaps you will realize What

tolerances are acceptable/noticeable and which are not. Some times

being AR gets in the way of efficiency, I am an expert on that. ;~)



Swingman and have built several kitchen in the past. In his shop he

cuts dado's in the backs of the rails and stiles for the face frames and

assembles the face frames. In my I cut the panels from the sheet goods

which will fit into those dado's in the back of the face frames, and the

sheet goods get dado's also. Eventually we bring all of the face frames

and cabinets panels together and assemble the cabinets. We have to

trust out machinery for the parts to fit perfectly every time.

So in that example being equally AR is a good thing. ;~)



Keep the imagination going! When I was 19 years old I had been

interested in wood working for half my life. I was self taught and at

that age designed and build a "contraption" that had a back fence to

place my wood against and it had an adjustable height moveable fence

that pivoted 180 degrees. The adjustable fence sat on top of the wood

and acted as a guide for my circular saw. Basically I was trying to

duplicate how a RAS operated. It worked great. That was 1974, long

before SCMS existed.

On 7/3/2013 2:01 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 1:25:37 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/3/2013 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:





I am troubled by some of Brian's machine work, especially tablesaw work.

I keep seeing the leading edge lifting, and in my opinion, his blade is

too low, leading to some of the burning we see, and a huge potential for

kick back. I keep the blade high, except with ply to avoid the

potential, and the wood near the blade never lifts..



As far as Brian's design, I had no problem with it, only the execution.









I think I would have cut the beveled edge on the TS instead of using the

tilted router table fence.

Why? It may be a faster maneuver but you need to swing your blade over and re-align to 90 degrees. (Here is where you tell me you trust your positive stop and we have a lengthy discussion about sawdust gumming up the works. )

Most woodworkers despise tilting their blade.


Brian, a router bit will not cut like a TS will. it will leave scallops,
while a really nice blade (Forrest) will leave a finished edge.


I would tilt my blade too, rather than hold my panel like you are doing.

BTW it takes me a few minutes to tilt my TS blade, I have a contractor
table saw so I need to remove my baffles at the back... but I prefer
that to other methods.. it's why I bought a TILTING ARBOR saw in the
first place..

--
Jeff

On 7/3/2013 1:36 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:59:16 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:

found out of place, the lacewood was beautiful, but not well done, since

the glue up put a piece that distracted..


Now were getting somewhere. Actual useful criticism.

Could you point out the board you find distracting? Below is a picture of the top:

http://www.garagewoodworks.com/pictu..._table/002.jpg


That shot shows the top much better, the head on view looked like the
grain was so vastly different that it did not belong.

I now agree that it looks better.


If I had no more lacewood, I

would have move that to the outside where it would be less noticable

instead of breaking up the pattern.

What pattern?




I am troubled by some of Brian's machine work, especially tablesaw work.

I keep seeing the leading edge lifting,

I also see what I consider poor machining on the jointer. I press down
on the front of the board, and once I have enough room, both paddles are
on the front, one overlaps the blade the other well in front. I never
push from the back that way.

If you look you will see it (TS ).



Again, useful criticism. Could you point out the videos and time frame where a board "lifted"? I remember a piece of ply lifting a little but nothing dramatic.

and in my opinion, his blade is

too low, leading to some of the burning we see, and a huge potential for

kick back.

A blade too low leads to kickback? That's news to me.

I keep the blade high, except with ply to avoid the

potential, and the wood near the blade never lifts..


A blade that is excessively high is more dangerous than one that is too low (but still cuts all the way through).

Could you elaborate here?





As far as Brian's design, I had no problem with it, only the execution.

Finally a complement (I think). Thank you








--

Jeff



--
Jeff

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

To this day I hate being in pictures of my finished work. I want the
audience to focus on what is important in the picture.

There is the famous Leon Fat Ass Sag Test, LFAST. I understand that you
volunteered your wife for that test, but she refused. I thought it was
epic. A simple test. Will it hold me up? If so, it will not sag under
anything I place on this shelf. You can't get more basic (and pragmatic)
than that!

wrote:
You are incredibly hung up on "experience". That's twice you've used
this one. As a Ph.D. chemist I have met some incredibly bad chemists
that had more "experience" than me. And I have met M.S. level chemists
that have rocked my world. It's meaningless and arbitrary and I don't
understand your attraction to it.

You have a doctoral degree in chemistry and you sought donations (here)
to buy a video camera for your web site? Gee, that's pretty close to
"deception by omission".

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 4:43:07 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
wrote:

You are incredibly hung up on "experience". That's twice you've used

this one. As a Ph.D. chemist I have met some incredibly bad chemists

that had more "experience" than me. And I have met M.S. level chemists

that have rocked my world. It's meaningless and arbitrary and I don't

understand your attraction to it.



You have a doctoral degree in chemistry and you sought donations (here)

to buy a video camera for your web site? Gee, that's pretty close to

"deception by omission".

I suppose it wouldn't make a difference if you knew I've been out of work since last December eh?

Go lick a boot.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:
wrote:
You are incredibly hung up on "experience". That's twice you've used
this one. As a Ph.D. chemist I have met some incredibly bad chemists
that had more "experience" than me. And I have met M.S. level
chemists that have rocked my world. It's meaningless and arbitrary
and I don't understand your attraction to it.
You have a doctoral degree in chemistry and you sought donations
(here) to buy a video camera for your web site? Gee, that's pretty
close to "deception by omission".
Geeze Bill - that's kind of harsh. I know too many people with advanced
degrees who are either out of work, or are forced to work way below what you
or I might think they should be making. They still have all those bills to
pay, regardless of what they're able to find for work. I would not be
surprised at all if Brian's woodworking is considered his hobby in his
household, and at least some aspects of it have to pay their own way, and
not dip into the household budget. I would not consider that to be either
abnormal, or unfair. The guy had a history of posting some pretty good
videos before his plea, and he's continued to do so. In my not so humble
opinion, there's enough worth in that offering, to make his plea acceptable.

Mike, I respect your opinion. I don't expect anyone to wait for it, but
the verdict is still out on my opinion in view of the new information.
I wish Brian luck finding work. -Bill

A blade too low leads to kickback? That's news to me.



Kickback occurs when for some reason the leading edge or underside of the board catches a tooth on the blade. This can be caused by the wood pinching between the bade and fence for various reasons such as bad feed method, stressed wood, expanding wood from blade heat, etc. If the blade is low it is easier for the rising wood to get over top of the blade and missile into your crotch in a literal millisecond, maybe bringing a few fingers along with it if your real unlucky.

Yes a higher blade is safer in terms of avoiding kickback but has other dangers if you don't have a proper guard system, etc.

Lew Hodgett wrote:

If you want to shill for Disney as the price of admission to view
your
work, then perform aerial intercourse on a rotating annular
spheroid.
Lew
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Casper" wrote:


..."perform aerial intercourse on a rotating annular spheroid" ??
Not enough coffee yet today to visually wrap my head around this
one,
but then I have a very imaginative mind so that may be a good thing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How about, "Take a flying **** at a rolling donut"?

Lew

On 7/3/2013 4:18 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:




A blade too low leads to kickback? That's news to me.



Kickback occurs when for some reason the leading edge or underside of the board catches a tooth on the blade. This can be caused by the wood pinching between the bade and fence for various reasons such as bad feed method, stressed wood, expanding wood from blade heat, etc. If the blade is low it is easier for the rising wood to get over top of the blade and missile into your crotch in a literal millisecond, maybe bringing a few fingers along with it if your real unlucky.

Yes a higher blade is safer in terms of avoiding kickback but has other dangers if you don't have a proper guard system, etc.

IME raising the blade simply decreases the chance for burning. The
lower the blade the fewer exposed teeth. It is the pinching at the back
of the blade that starts the dangerous situation, the reason the riving
knife is used to help prevent that.

"Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

To this day I hate being in pictures of my finished work. I want the
audience to focus on what is important in the picture.

There is the famous Leon Fat Ass Sag Test, LFAST. I understand that you
volunteered your wife for that test, but she refused. I thought it was
epic. A simple test. Will it hold me up? If so, it will not sag under
anything I place on this shelf. You can't get more basic (and pragmatic) than that!

There is no proof that my face is on the other side of that "ass"! LOL

SonomaProducts.com wrote:

A blade too low leads to kickback? That's news to me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Leon" wrote:

Kickback occurs when for some reason the leading edge or underside
of the board catches a tooth on the blade. This can be caused by the
wood pinching between the bade and fence for various reasons such as
bad feed method, stressed wood, expanding wood from blade heat, etc.
If the blade is low it is easier for the rising wood to get over top
of the blade and missile into your crotch in a literal millisecond,
maybe bringing a few fingers along with it if your real unlucky.

Yes a higher blade is safer in terms of avoiding kickback but has
other dangers if you don't have a proper guard system, etc.

IME raising the blade simply decreases the chance for burning. The
lower the blade the fewer exposed teeth. It is the pinching at the
back of the blade that starts the dangerous situation, the reason
the riving knife is used to help prevent that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SFWIW, Cerritos College teaches:

TS blade exposure = material thickness being cut + max gullet depth +
1/2".

Designed to minimize injury damage.

(Need to give the surgeon something to sew back together)

A riving knife is worth it's weight in gold when it comes to
preventing kick back IMHO.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
SonomaProducts.com wrote:

A blade too low leads to kickback? That's news to me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Leon" wrote:

Kickback occurs when for some reason the leading edge or underside
of the board catches a tooth on the blade. This can be caused by the
wood pinching between the bade and fence for various reasons such as
bad feed method, stressed wood, expanding wood from blade heat, etc.
If the blade is low it is easier for the rising wood to get over top
of the blade and missile into your crotch in a literal millisecond,
maybe bringing a few fingers along with it if your real unlucky.
Yes a higher blade is safer in terms of avoiding kickback but has
other dangers if you don't have a proper guard system, etc.

IME raising the blade simply decreases the chance for burning. The
lower the blade the fewer exposed teeth. It is the pinching at the
back of the blade that starts the dangerous situation, the reason
the riving knife is used to help prevent that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SFWIW, Cerritos College teaches:

TS blade exposure = material thickness being cut + max gullet depth +
1/2".

Designed to minimize injury damage.

Just curious whether anyone can validate Lew's technnique. It's more
blade exposure than I would have thought required.

Bill




(Need to give the surgeon something to sew back together)

A riving knife is worth it's weight in gold when it comes to
preventing kick back IMHO.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SFWIW, Cerritos College teaches:

TS blade exposure = material thickness being cut + max gullet depth +
1/2".

Designed to minimize injury damage.

(Need to give the surgeon something to sew back together)

A riving knife is worth it's weight in gold when it comes to
preventing kick back IMHO.

Lew



Here's a short related thread from Lumberjocks:

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/11838

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 14:25:28 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Now having said that, about 18 months ago Nailshooter, Swingman and
their significant others were at our house visiting at Christmas time.
Nailshooter took what I considered an embarrassing number of detailed,
up close, and personal pictures of the "big pantry cabinet" that I had
just completed. He insisted in me being in one of those pictures.

And now that I have mentioned this and if he sees this post I can
probably expect to see him post that picture. ;~(

Why wait? Post it yourself and you can control the initial caption
that comes with the image.

On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:22:16 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Like I told you when you originally asked - it was an artifact of the photography.

Nothing wrong with the top. It is very pleasing to look at.

To your eye, but not mine the lacewoods grain is way to busy for my
tastes.

Mark

On 7/4/2013 12:05 AM, Bill wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:
....

SFWIW, Cerritos College teaches:

TS blade exposure = material thickness being cut + max gullet depth +
1/2".
....

Just curious whether anyone can validate Lew's technnique. It's more
blade exposure than I would have thought required.
....

Industrial text (don't recall it's pedigree/author/publisher otomh and
it's not handy to look) was taught from "back in the day" at uni
industrial shop was "gullet plus a little" -- anything more wasn't of
value kickback and adds to the likelihood of accidental contact.

Pretty similar although a full half-inch above clearing gullet height
would have been considered more than a little--more like quarter/maybe
3/8" would have been approved of...

Research I'm unaware of; I'd wager these ad hoc rules came from
practical application rather than any research specifically designed for
the purpose.

--

On 7/4/2013 1:30 AM, Bill wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SFWIW, Cerritos College teaches:

TS blade exposure = material thickness being cut + max gullet depth +
1/2".

Designed to minimize injury damage.

(Need to give the surgeon something to sew back together)

A riving knife is worth it's weight in gold when it comes to
preventing kick back IMHO.

Lew



Here's a short related thread from Lumberjocks:

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/11838


Bill, you do what you like,
For me it makes sense to cool the carbide.
It also makes sense that cutting down will cause less kick back than
cutting into the wood.

if for some reason you veer from the fence, you cause a bind (slight)
but the teeth are pushing toward you. When the blade is high, they are
pushing toward the table top.


Take a look at Brian's cuts, see the burning. Too low, so Brian prides
himself on a good setup and is still burning. So either he is moving too
slow or he has the blade too low.. or both..

BTW why is having the blade low safe??? you can barely see it.. you may
not cut all the way through a finger, but it can cut you good, and it
can kickback more easily. So why is it safer...

All of this is what I find better, you may find something else. That's
fine...

--
Jeff

On 7/4/2013 12:05 AM, Bill wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:
SonomaProducts.com wrote:

A blade too low leads to kickback? That's news to me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Leon" wrote:

Kickback occurs when for some reason the leading edge or underside
of the board catches a tooth on the blade. This can be caused by the
wood pinching between the bade and fence for various reasons such as
bad feed method, stressed wood, expanding wood from blade heat, etc.
If the blade is low it is easier for the rising wood to get over top
of the blade and missile into your crotch in a literal millisecond,
maybe bringing a few fingers along with it if your real unlucky.
Yes a higher blade is safer in terms of avoiding kickback but has
other dangers if you don't have a proper guard system, etc.

IME raising the blade simply decreases the chance for burning. The
lower the blade the fewer exposed teeth. It is the pinching at the
back of the blade that starts the dangerous situation, the reason
the riving knife is used to help prevent that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SFWIW, Cerritos College teaches:

TS blade exposure = material thickness being cut + max gullet depth +
1/2".

Designed to minimize injury damage.

Just curious whether anyone can validate Lew's technnique. It's more
blade exposure than I would have thought required.


Use the height you are most comfortable. You can get a kick back any
time you are cutting wood on a TS. The only written suggestion that I
have seen was by Systematic, IIRC it suggested that the bottom of the
gullet should be just above the top of the wood.