Hello.
I've watched this ng for quite some while and enjoy it immensely.
Some of the US stuff is not too relevant to UK, but I get the drift.
I'm, I suppose, a recreational woodworker. Have been so for 45 years. Decent
workshop equipped with all the tools I need. I do it for pleasure, knowledge
and recreation.
Not, or very rarely, for monetary gain. In short I enjoy what I do and I
enjoy doing it. In essence my time is not money, it's enjoyment.
I was taught how to work wood using hand tools.
Reading posts on this ng, you guys have power tools for just about anything
and everything.
I'm not in the slightest envious because I enjoy what I do. And I'm getting
too damned old.
Do you ever use hand tools?

A few things I really like about this ng:
1) few bad tempered rants.
2) Rob H's 'what is it'.
3) Good and well informed folk.
4) Very useful tips and hints.
5) General bonhomie.

I'll go and look for my old tin hat and hide beneath the parapet.

Good luck to all,
Nick.

"Nick" wrote in
:

*snip*

Do you ever use hand tools?

*snip*

Hand tools? You mean those things without cords? Sure, do that all the
time, but it's tough keeping the batteries charged! Always seems like it
goes dead halfway through a cut.

I do use human-powered hand tools occasionally. Depends on the project...
I've built things using only electric powered tools, but when it comes to
dovetails or joinery, hand tools are usually the preferred way to go. I'd
really miss my block planes if they were gone.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 4/28/2013 7:26 PM, Nick wrote:
Hello.
I've watched this ng for quite some while and enjoy it immensely.
Some of the US stuff is not too relevant to UK, but I get the drift.
I'm, I suppose, a recreational woodworker. Have been so for 45 years. Decent
workshop equipped with all the tools I need. I do it for pleasure, knowledge
and recreation.
Not, or very rarely, for monetary gain. In short I enjoy what I do and I
enjoy doing it. In essence my time is not money, it's enjoyment.
I was taught how to work wood using hand tools.
Reading posts on this ng, you guys have power tools for just about anything
and everything.
I'm not in the slightest envious because I enjoy what I do. And I'm getting
too damned old.
Do you ever use hand tools?

Nick,
I have a full shop of power tools.
But the more I have, the more I appreciate my hand tools.
I built a workbench with a solid maple top, beech legs and
stretchers/rails.. I wanted to build a euro bench, but settled on a more
english style bench (a compromise), I really didn't need the euro style,
I had just wanted it.

I cut dovetails by hands, I power joint, and plane to rough size, I hand
plane to finish, it removes the scallops. I prefer planing to sanding.
If it's bigger than my jointer handles I will joint the whole thing by hand.

I have a good set of hand planes, a router plane, some moulding planes.
I have some really nice quality hand saws. Some more than 100 years old,
some brand new but extremely high quality saws.

The more I use my hand tools, the more gratification I get. But don't
get me wrong. There are times it's all power for speed and utility.

My biggest frustration is on wood that likes to tearout. Both power and
hand.. I just bought a load of tiger maple, and even though it's my
biggest frustration (tearout), its the journey and the beauty of the
wood. So I continue to try and master the skills that will allow me to
work this difficult to tame wood.

A few things I really like about this ng:
1) few bad tempered rants.
2) Rob H's 'what is it'.
3) Good and well informed folk.
4) Very useful tips and hints.
5) General bonhomie.

I'll go and look for my old tin hat and hide beneath the parapet.

Good luck to all,
Nick.




--
Jeff

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 00:26:52 +0100, "Nick"
wrote:

Hello.
I've watched this ng for quite some while and enjoy it immensely.
Some of the US stuff is not too relevant to UK, but I get the drift.
I'm, I suppose, a recreational woodworker. Have been so for 45 years. Decent
workshop equipped with all the tools I need. I do it for pleasure, knowledge
and recreation.
Not, or very rarely, for monetary gain. In short I enjoy what I do and I
enjoy doing it. In essence my time is not money, it's enjoyment.
I was taught how to work wood using hand tools.
Reading posts on this ng, you guys have power tools for just about anything
and everything.
I'm not in the slightest envious because I enjoy what I do. And I'm getting
too damned old.
Do you ever use hand tools?

Sometimes, but Binford doesn't make any that are powerful
enough.Different strokes.

A few things I really like about this ng:
1) few bad tempered rants.
2) Rob H's 'what is it'.
3) Good and well informed folk.
4) Very useful tips and hints.
5) General bonhomie.

I'll go and look for my old tin hat and hide beneath the parapet.

On 4/28/2013 5:26 PM, Nick wrote:
Hello.
I've watched this ng for quite some while and enjoy it immensely.
Some of the US stuff is not too relevant to UK, but I get the drift.
I'm, I suppose, a recreational woodworker. Have been so for 45 years. Decent
workshop equipped with all the tools I need. I do it for pleasure, knowledge
and recreation.
Not, or very rarely, for monetary gain. In short I enjoy what I do and I
enjoy doing it. In essence my time is not money, it's enjoyment.
I was taught how to work wood using hand tools.
Reading posts on this ng, you guys have power tools for just about anything
and everything.
I'm not in the slightest envious because I enjoy what I do. And I'm getting
too damned old.
Do you ever use hand tools?

A few things I really like about this ng:
1) few bad tempered rants.
2) Rob H's 'what is it'.
3) Good and well informed folk.
4) Very useful tips and hints.
5) General bonhomie.

I'll go and look for my old tin hat and hide beneath the parapet.

Good luck to all,
Nick.



I like the *speed* of power tools unless I'm working on a small project.
I've built enough cabinets, bookcases, etc. that the *finished* product
is more important than the work on it.
On the other hand if I build a jewelry box or tool chest, the
fascination of putting one together is more important than the finished
product.
I guess the only tool I don't own is a parapet; does Lee Valley carry
them? ;-)

"Nick" wrote:

Do you ever use hand tools?
-------------------------------------
Not if I can help it.

The only exception being some sanding and/or scraping.

Welcome aboard.

Lew

Nick wrote:
..
Do you ever use hand tools?

Sure. I often use a hammer, bought it new in 1943.
..
Ditto a brace, same vintage (I mostly use it as a cordless screw driver but
occasionally make holes).

Ditto a jack plane, same vintage. Block and smooth planes too but newer,

Scrapers

Chisels

Saws but only dozukis. Well, sometimes a ryoba.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

I have a pretty well equipped shop with lots of stuff that can take a finger faster than you can say duke of Windsor. OTOH, I have a good assortment of chisels, a nifty marples trim saw and a couple of planes that refuse to be friends with me. I've been after my local Woodcraft dealer to have a couple of classes in neanderthal woodworking. My grandfather was a finish carpenter during the depression and I have his workbox and a few of his tools -- brace, bits, handsaw and a few odds and ends. I have profound respect for all who can turn a tree into something beautiful without electricity. I'm never going to get there, but I'm hoping to take a few steps down that path.

Larry


On Sunday, April 28, 2013 6:26:52 PM UTC-5, Nick wrote:
Hello.

I've watched this ng for quite some while and enjoy it immensely.

Some of the US stuff is not too relevant to UK, but I get the drift.

I'm, I suppose, a recreational woodworker. Have been so for 45 years. Decent

workshop equipped with all the tools I need. I do it for pleasure, knowledge

and recreation.

Not, or very rarely, for monetary gain. In short I enjoy what I do and I

enjoy doing it. In essence my time is not money, it's enjoyment.

I was taught how to work wood using hand tools.

Reading posts on this ng, you guys have power tools for just about anything

and everything.

I'm not in the slightest envious because I enjoy what I do. And I'm getting

too damned old.

Do you ever use hand tools?



A few things I really like about this ng:

1) few bad tempered rants.

2) Rob H's 'what is it'.

3) Good and well informed folk.

4) Very useful tips and hints.

5) General bonhomie.



I'll go and look for my old tin hat and hide beneath the parapet.



Good luck to all,

Nick.

Nick, good food for thought on your post.

In my opinion (hey... remember is worth what you paid for it!) there
are a lot of folks that are serious about woodworking, but don't have
the time to develop the skills needed to be "a neander" and go without
power.

I can't imagine spending a weekend face planing down a piece of 5
quarter rough sawn 1X8 on both faces to get it to the proper
thickness, then lining it and shooting it with the proper plane. In
building a coffee table or dining room table or any other larger piece
of furniture as a "weekend and a few nights only a week guy", it would
take a couple of months just to prep the wood!

Also, many here are professionals in the trades, or semi
professionals, and that means speed, accuracy and repeatability are
the key components when executing a project. For me, there is no joy
is boring a hole with a bit and brace. There isn't any satisfaction
from using a homemade miter box with a back saw. I don't use a
screwdriver to put on kitchen hardware, but use a small drill.

Also, tools and their designs are made to follow the current trends of
building and the available materials. With our super thin, chippy,
splintery veneered products, our poorly prepared solid wood choices,
and newer growth lumber that might be better suited as pallet wood,
power tools help make up for the deficiencies of the material.

Probably the biggest example of this trend in my mind is the
development of brad/trim guns. As a young hand 40 years ago, I was
taught to use a hammer and nails, and using a nail gun was frowned on
as a distinct lack of skill. You learned to drive nails without
hitting the wood and if the wood was hard and expensive you drilled
pilot holes for the nails.

Now, even the base boards, door trims, crown moldings, chair rail,
etc. are hard, brittle materials that crack easily. Some kind of
South American fast growing finger jointed hardwood is what you get in
paint grade and it splits like the dickens with a regular hammer and
nails as attachment devices. Most stain grade trims I see are no more
than the clear section of yellow pine which is also hard, brittle, and
sometimes painful to use. With a brad/trim gun, once you learn proper
placement you can nail away with little fear of breaking the trims.
For a contractor, using a nail gun anymore is almost self defense
because of the available materials we use.

Then add to the fact we are on about the second generation of
tradesmen on carpentry that simply can't drive a nail...

Robert

On 4/30/2013 5:07 AM, G. Ross wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
workbox and a few of his tools -- brace, bits, handsaw and a
few odds and ends. I have profound respect for all who can
turn a tree into something beautiful without electricity. I'm
never going to get there, but I'm hoping to take a few steps
down that path.

You need to think about your woodworking a little differently. A
hundred years from now, your relatives will be speaking to a computer
telling it what they want built. They will wonder how *you* built
stuff using sharp blades attached to electrically driven machines.

Or they may be huddling in a cave hacking out furniture with an axe.



That's not far off from what I've been doing.

I've carved four half-hull models this year.

It has been interesting figuring out how, but I'm happy with the results
now.

Plane cedar boards to the desired thickness (machine).

Saw out the "lifts", waterline shapes (band saw).

Glue and clamp the lifts to make a plug. (hand)

Carve out the hull (18 inch hand saw as a whittling knife and block planes)

Sand, epoxy, prime, sand, sand, sand, sand, paint, paint, sand, sand,
sand, paint, sand, paint, sand.... repeat until finished.

I'll get some pictures up somewhere one of these days.


Richard

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
workbox and a few of his tools -- brace, bits, handsaw and a
few odds and ends. I have profound respect for all who can
turn a tree into something beautiful without electricity. I'm
never going to get there, but I'm hoping to take a few steps
down that path.

You need to think about your woodworking a little differently. A
hundred years from now, your relatives will be speaking to a computer
telling it what they want built. They will wonder how *you* built
stuff using sharp blades attached to electrically driven machines.

wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
workbox and a few of his tools -- brace, bits, handsaw and a
few odds and ends. I have profound respect for all who can
turn a tree into something beautiful without electricity. I'm
never going to get there, but I'm hoping to take a few steps
down that path.

You need to think about your woodworking a little differently. A
hundred years from now, your relatives will be speaking to a computer
telling it what they want built. They will wonder how *you* built
stuff using sharp blades attached to electrically driven machines.

Or they may be huddling in a cave hacking out furniture with an axe.

--
 GW Ross 

 An unemployed court jester is no 
 one's fool. 

On 4/28/2013 6:26 PM, Nick wrote:
Hello.
I've watched this ng for quite some while and enjoy it immensely.
Some of the US stuff is not too relevant to UK, but I get the drift.
I'm, I suppose, a recreational woodworker. Have been so for 45 years. Decent
workshop equipped with all the tools I need. I do it for pleasure, knowledge
and recreation.
Not, or very rarely, for monetary gain. In short I enjoy what I do and I
enjoy doing it. In essence my time is not money, it's enjoyment.
I was taught how to work wood using hand tools.
Reading posts on this ng, you guys have power tools for just about anything
and everything.
I'm not in the slightest envious because I enjoy what I do. And I'm getting
too damned old.
Do you ever use hand tools?

A few things I really like about this ng:
1) few bad tempered rants.
2) Rob H's 'what is it'.
3) Good and well informed folk.
4) Very useful tips and hints.
5) General bonhomie.

I'll go and look for my old tin hat and hide beneath the parapet.

Good luck to all,
Nick.




From my aspect, try selling your work on a continuous basis using hand
tools. Hand tools are fine if only building for the satisfaction of
building but you will never be competitive with machine built products.

wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
workbox and a few of his tools -- brace, bits, handsaw and a
few odds and ends. I have profound respect for all who can
turn a tree into something beautiful without electricity. I'm
never going to get there, but I'm hoping to take a few steps
down that path.
You need to think about your woodworking a little differently. A
hundred years from now, your relatives will be speaking to a computer
telling it what they want built. They will wonder how *you* built
stuff using sharp blades attached to electrically driven machines.

It's worth mentioning how machines, in all of their speed,
omitted much ofthe "style"that had been a part of furniture.

Bill

Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT), "Gramp's shop"
workbox and a few of his tools -- brace, bits, handsaw and a
few odds and ends. I have profound respect for all who can
turn a tree into something beautiful without electricity. I'm
never going to get there, but I'm hoping to take a few steps
down that path.
You need to think about your woodworking a little differently. A
hundred years from now, your relatives will be speaking to a computer
telling it what they want built. They will wonder how *you* built
stuff using sharp blades attached to electrically driven machines.

It's worth mentioning how machines, in all of their speed,
omitted much ofthe "style"that had been a part of furniture.


That's very true. And not only in furniture.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:

It's worth mentioning how machines, in all of their speed,
omitted much ofthe "style"that had been a part of furniture.

That's very true. And not only in furniture.
I have no doubt that you are correct; what were you thinking of (besides
furniture)?

Computers? : )

Bill wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:

It's worth mentioning how machines, in all of their speed,
omitted much ofthe "style"that had been a part of furniture.

That's very true. And not only in furniture.
I have no doubt that you are correct; what were you thinking of
(besides furniture)?

Computers? : )

Oh, many things. Consider the architecture of the early 1900s. Lots of
details inside and out that would be exorbitantly expensive now. Not even
many who would know how to do them.

Shows too. Used to be you could get shoes in many widths (C, D, E, etc) as
well as lengths. Now medium and wide is about it.

Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted. Now it all
comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they aren't butchers -
couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it. Seen a USDA stamp on a piece
of meat recently? Try asking for a flat bone sirloin.

Much of this has nothing to do machines, it has with lowering knowledge,
skill and craftmanship to a lower common denominator in the interest of
expediency and greater profits.

Generally, there has been a decrease of elegance, an increase in crassness.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:49:14 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/28/2013 6:26 PM, Nick wrote:
Hello.
I've watched this ng for quite some while and enjoy it immensely.
Some of the US stuff is not too relevant to UK, but I get the drift.
I'm, I suppose, a recreational woodworker. Have been so for 45 years. Decent
workshop equipped with all the tools I need. I do it for pleasure, knowledge
and recreation.
Not, or very rarely, for monetary gain. In short I enjoy what I do and I
enjoy doing it. In essence my time is not money, it's enjoyment.
I was taught how to work wood using hand tools.
Reading posts on this ng, you guys have power tools for just about anything
and everything.
I'm not in the slightest envious because I enjoy what I do. And I'm getting
too damned old.
Do you ever use hand tools?

A few things I really like about this ng:
1) few bad tempered rants.
2) Rob H's 'what is it'.
3) Good and well informed folk.
4) Very useful tips and hints.
5) General bonhomie.

I'll go and look for my old tin hat and hide beneath the parapet.

Good luck to all,
Nick.




From my aspect, try selling your work on a continuous basis using hand
tools. Hand tools are fine if only building for the satisfaction of
building but you will never be competitive with machine built products.

On the other hand remember whenTom Plamann tried to use CNC instead of
carving his ornamental stairs. I actually agree with you though,
it's hard for people now to appreciate quality. For me wood working
has always been a hobby as I could always make more money with my
master electricians license. Or this morning, I'm on disability, I
gave my girl friend a bad about making almost $2500 hauling the
garbage for 3 houses out to the county road with the backhoe
yesterday. Of course since it was investment income it may be gone
today. None the less we all have to do what we think is best and very
few people could find a niche to do hand tool work. Roy get's by with
a TV show not selling to customers.

Mike M

dadiOH wrote:



Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted.
Now it all comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they
aren't butchers - couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it.
Seen a USDA stamp on a piece of meat recently? Try asking for a flat
bone sirloin.
--------------------------------------------------
Here in L/A, go into any of the major supermarket chains,
pick up a roast of choice and ask them to grind it.

Never going to happen.

BTW, they do have meat saws where they do specific tasks,
nothing special.

I know of ONE butcher shop in Orange county that will cut what you
want.

Just to put that into perspective, there are over 17,000,000
people in Southern California.

Orange county has maybe 3-4,000,000.

Call that slim pickins IMHO.

Lew

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:32:38 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Much of this has nothing to do machines, it has with lowering knowledge,
skill and craftmanship to a lower common denominator in the interest of
expediency and greater profits.

Generally, there has been a decrease of elegance, an increase in crassness.

Agreed. Most of it boils down to the cost of manual labour. I remember
reading a SciFi novel once where the hero complained about society at
the middle level building stuff by squeezing goop into a machine. It's
only the early or very advance societies that build stuff by hand.

"dadiOH" writes:

Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted. Now it all
comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they aren't butchers -
couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it. Seen a USDA stamp on a piece
of meat recently? Try asking for a flat bone sirloin.

My grocery has a butcher shop, and will make custom cuts on request.

I get USDA Prime beef at Costco.

On 4/30/2013 7:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:

It's worth mentioning how machines, in all of their speed,
omitted much ofthe "style"that had been a part of furniture.

That's very true. And not only in furniture.
I have no doubt that you are correct; what were you thinking of
(besides furniture)?

Computers? : )

Oh, many things. Consider the architecture of the early 1900s. Lots of
details inside and out that would be exorbitantly expensive now. Not even
many who would know how to do them.

Shows too. Used to be you could get shoes in many widths (C, D, E, etc) as
well as lengths. Now medium and wide is about it.

Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted. Now it all
comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they aren't butchers -
couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it. Seen a USDA stamp on a piece
of meat recently? Try asking for a flat bone sirloin.

Much of this has nothing to do machines, it has with lowering knowledge,
skill and craftmanship to a lower common denominator in the interest of
expediency and greater profits.

Generally, there has been a decrease of elegance, an increase in crassness.


You provided some interesting examples.

Even at BestBuy in the laptop section -- NONE with a solid-state drive
(which arguably most should have) and ALL with Windows 8 (except for
Apple's) which almost nobody seems to want.

Scott Lurndal wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:

Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted.
Now it all comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they
aren't butchers - couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it.
Seen a USDA stamp on a piece of meat recently? Try asking for a flat
bone sirloin.

My grocery has a butcher shop, and will make custom cuts on request.

I get USDA Prime beef at Costco.

Count your blessings.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dadiOH wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:

Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted.
Now it all comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they
aren't butchers - couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it.
Seen a USDA stamp on a piece of meat recently? Try asking for a flat
bone sirloin.

My grocery has a butcher shop, and will make custom cuts on request.

I get USDA Prime beef at Costco.

Count your blessings.

BTW, did you know there are grades within the grades? For example, there is
US Choice but there is also US Choice+ and US Choice-. Same thing in the
other grades.
http://meat.tamu.edu/beefgrading/

Want to bet which your local super market is selling as USDA
Select/Choice/Prime?

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:32:38 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Bill wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:

It's worth mentioning how machines, in all of their speed,
omitted much ofthe "style"that had been a part of furniture.

That's very true. And not only in furniture.
I have no doubt that you are correct; what were you thinking of
(besides furniture)?

Computers? : )

Oh, many things. Consider the architecture of the early 1900s. Lots of
details inside and out that would be exorbitantly expensive now. Not even
many who would know how to do them.

Because not enough want them.

Shows too. Used to be you could get shoes in many widths (C, D, E, etc) as
well as lengths. Now medium and wide is about it.

Shoes? They still come in various widths. I wear 12EEEEEE. They're
not available everywhere but they are available. Amazon, for one.

Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted. Now it all
comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they aren't butchers -
couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it. Seen a USDA stamp on a piece
of meat recently? Try asking for a flat bone sirloin.

Maybe where you live. I can get meat cut to order at any of the
supermarkets, here. There are butcher shops, too. I don't choose to,
often, because I'd rather not pay the price. Choice isn't just a cut
of beef.

Much of this has nothing to do machines, it has with lowering knowledge,
skill and craftmanship to a lower common denominator in the interest of
expediency and greater profits.

Nonsense. It's *all* economics. People choose not to pay for such
things, so they don't exist.

Generally, there has been a decrease of elegance, an increase in crassness.

Choice.

On 5/1/2013 12:22 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:32:38 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Bill wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:

It's worth mentioning how machines, in all of their speed,
omitted much ofthe "style"that had been a part of furniture.

That's very true. And not only in furniture.
I have no doubt that you are correct; what were you thinking of
(besides furniture)?

Computers? : )

Oh, many things. Consider the architecture of the early 1900s. Lots of
details inside and out that would be exorbitantly expensive now. Not even
many who would know how to do them.

Because not enough want them.

Shows too. Used to be you could get shoes in many widths (C, D, E, etc) as
well as lengths. Now medium and wide is about it.

Shoes? They still come in various widths. I wear 12EEEEEE. They're
not available everywhere but they are available. Amazon, for one.

Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted. Now it all
comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they aren't butchers -
couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it. Seen a USDA stamp on a piece
of meat recently? Try asking for a flat bone sirloin.

Maybe where you live. I can get meat cut to order at any of the
supermarkets, here. There are butcher shops, too. I don't choose to,
often, because I'd rather not pay the price. Choice isn't just a cut
of beef.

Much of this has nothing to do machines, it has with lowering knowledge,
skill and craftmanship to a lower common denominator in the interest of
expediency and greater profits.

Nonsense. It's *all* economics. People choose not to pay for such
things, so they don't exist.

I am going to call you on that one, considering furniture, I seriously
doubt that most people today realize that there is better furniture to
be had. Most people that I have dealt with think they have good
furniture. They see how I build my furniture and that is generally all
they need to see to commission me to build for them.

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

I am going to call you on that one, considering furniture, I seriously
doubt that most people today realize that there is better furniture to be
had. Most people that I have dealt with think they have good furniture.
They see how I build my furniture and that is generally all they need to
see to commission me to build for them.


Yep, that is soooo... true.

As someone who was raised on home built and second hand furniture, I did not
know how BAD conventional furniture was until I got out in the world and saw
it for the first time. I was amazed how flimsy a lit of it was. I remember
building some bookshelves that did not fit in a particular space. I gave
the bookshelves to my sister. She, and her house visitors, were amazed on
how "sturdy" the bookshelves were. That was over 25 years ago. Visitors to
her house, 25 years later, still remark on how "sturdy" those shelves are.

That only means one thing. There is a lot of crap out there and when people
run into something different, it is a bit of a revelation for them.

Another thing. I came to the big city and had access to hardware stores,
lumber yards, tools, classified ads, garage sales, etc. Far more resources
than I had growing up. So I started building. And immediately got lots of
criticism for ''too many fasteners", "too many braces", "too heavy"
furniture", etc. Apparently if you weren't building low quality, wobbly
stuff, you weren't doing it right!

People raised around crap go through a change when exposed to the good
stuff. I have been a corrupting force in this regard.

I mean, really, who sets out to build wobbly crap? Either you don't know
any better or you just don't care.

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
.com...

I mean, really, who sets out to build wobbly crap? Either you don't know
any better or you just don't care.

To expand upon this a bit. I think there is also a resource component to
these decisions... Generally, people would like book shelves made of the
most suitable materials with proven construction methods. However, the
reality is many lack deep enough pockets to make it happen... The competing
agendas of satisfying the needs for food, shelter, clothing, transportation,
education and entertainment command a higher weight in the allocation of
their finite financial resources than do book shelves. In those cases a
complete Ikea or Saunder unit, that may cost in total as much as one nice
cherry board, becomes the choice by economic necessity. Here it's a case of
satisficing versus optimizing and it can still be considered a rational
decision.

As you suggest, there is another group whom has the resources but not the
knowledge. That is where folks like us can help educate them. Perhaps not in
a know-it-all way but by example. The story here about the sturdy shelves
that people notice is a good example of that... Together the satisficing and
unknowledgeable may be guided to better, yet cost effective, solutions to
their furniture needs by folks here.

The don't cares... well... they may not be worth the breath or bytes.
However, maybe they would care if they understood better, which takes us
back to the above.

I've been giving a lot of thought to issues like this recently as concerns
my involvement with various organizations and their seemingly competing
agendas. Where I see a tremendous amount of commonality in my activities
others focus like a laser on what I see as relatively small differences that
can be ignored or influenced through discussion. I think we rec'ers can be
educators and transferors of knowledge, not only within the rec but to the
other circles in which we live.

Anyhow... enough of this thinking in bytes stuff for now. ;~)

John

On Wed, 01 May 2013 13:03:24 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/1/2013 12:22 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:32:38 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Bill wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:

It's worth mentioning how machines, in all of their speed,
omitted much ofthe "style"that had been a part of furniture.

That's very true. And not only in furniture.
I have no doubt that you are correct; what were you thinking of
(besides furniture)?

Computers? : )

Oh, many things. Consider the architecture of the early 1900s. Lots of
details inside and out that would be exorbitantly expensive now. Not even
many who would know how to do them.

Because not enough want them.

Shows too. Used to be you could get shoes in many widths (C, D, E, etc) as
well as lengths. Now medium and wide is about it.

Shoes? They still come in various widths. I wear 12EEEEEE. They're
not available everywhere but they are available. Amazon, for one.

Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted. Now it all
comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they aren't butchers -
couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it. Seen a USDA stamp on a piece
of meat recently? Try asking for a flat bone sirloin.

Maybe where you live. I can get meat cut to order at any of the
supermarkets, here. There are butcher shops, too. I don't choose to,
often, because I'd rather not pay the price. Choice isn't just a cut
of beef.

Much of this has nothing to do machines, it has with lowering knowledge,
skill and craftmanship to a lower common denominator in the interest of
expediency and greater profits.

Nonsense. It's *all* economics. People choose not to pay for such
things, so they don't exist.

I am going to call you on that one, considering furniture, I seriously
doubt that most people today realize that there is better furniture to
be had. Most people that I have dealt with think they have good
furniture. They see how I build my furniture and that is generally all
they need to see to commission me to build for them.

Sure they do but they're not willing to pay for it and it all ratchets
down from there.

"Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

I am going to call you on that one, considering furniture, I seriously
doubt that most people today realize that there is better furniture to
be had. Most people that I have dealt with think they have good
furniture. They see how I build my furniture and that is generally all
they need to see to commission me to build for them.


Yep, that is soooo... true.

As someone who was raised on home built and second hand furniture, I did
not know how BAD conventional furniture was until I got out in the world
and saw it for the first time. I was amazed how flimsy a lit of it was.
I remember building some bookshelves that did not fit in a particular
space. I gave the bookshelves to my sister. She, and her house
visitors, were amazed on how "sturdy" the bookshelves were. That was
over 25 years ago. Visitors to her house, 25 years later, still remark
on how "sturdy" those shelves are.

That only means one thing. There is a lot of crap out there and when
people run into something different, it is a bit of a revelation for them.

Stay a week in a house with and use handcrafted kitchen cabinets, then take
a stroll through a showroom at the Borgs with the KitchenMaid, et al
factory-made displays and I guarantee you will be startled by what you
missed/didn't notice the first time you saw the latter ... your eye will be
forever ruined in favor of the former.

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

On 5/1/13 5:11 PM, Swingman wrote:
Stay a week in a house with and use handcrafted kitchen cabinets, then take
a stroll through a showroom at the Borgs with the KitchenMaid, et al
factory-made displays and I guarantee you will be startled by what you
missed/didn't notice the first time you saw the latter ... your eye will be
forever ruined in favor of the former.


+10!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 5/1/2013 3:43 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
.com...

I mean, really, who sets out to build wobbly crap? Either you don't
know any better or you just don't care.

To expand upon this a bit. I think there is also a resource component to
these decisions... Generally, people would like book shelves made of the
most suitable materials with proven construction methods. However, the
reality is many lack deep enough pockets to make it happen... The
competing agendas of satisfying the needs for food, shelter, clothing,
transportation, education and entertainment command a higher weight in
the allocation of their finite financial resources than do book shelves.
In those cases a complete Ikea or Saunder unit, that may cost in total
as much as one nice cherry board, becomes the choice by economic
necessity. Here it's a case of satisficing versus optimizing and it can
still be considered a rational decision.

As you suggest, there is another group whom has the resources but not
the knowledge. That is where folks like us can help educate them.
Perhaps not in a know-it-all way but by example. The story here about
the sturdy shelves that people notice is a good example of that...
Together the satisficing and unknowledgeable may be guided to better,
yet cost effective, solutions to their furniture needs by folks here.

The don't cares... well... they may not be worth the breath or bytes.
However, maybe they would care if they understood better, which takes us
back to the above.

I've been giving a lot of thought to issues like this recently as
concerns my involvement with various organizations and their seemingly
competing agendas. Where I see a tremendous amount of commonality in my
activities others focus like a laser on what I see as relatively small
differences that can be ignored or influenced through discussion. I
think we rec'ers can be educators and transferors of knowledge, not only
within the rec but to the other circles in which we live.

Anyhow... enough of this thinking in bytes stuff for now. ;~)

John

There is one more segment that you didn't talk about, those that have
the means, but replace things every few years to change things up. They
are the fashionable types, and for them it's better to keep up then
spend on the better. The classics never go out of style...


--
Jeff

On 5/1/2013 1:48 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:


"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

I am going to call you on that one, considering furniture, I seriously
doubt that most people today realize that there is better furniture to
be had. Most people that I have dealt with think they have good
furniture. They see how I build my furniture and that is generally all
they need to see to commission me to build for them.


Yep, that is soooo... true.

As someone who was raised on home built and second hand furniture, I did
not know how BAD conventional furniture was until I got out in the world
and saw it for the first time. I was amazed how flimsy a lit of it
was. I remember building some bookshelves that did not fit in a
particular space. I gave the bookshelves to my sister. She, and her
house visitors, were amazed on how "sturdy" the bookshelves were. That
was over 25 years ago. Visitors to her house, 25 years later, still
remark on how "sturdy" those shelves are.

That only means one thing. There is a lot of crap out there and when
people run into something different, it is a bit of a revelation for them.

Another thing. I came to the big city and had access to hardware
stores, lumber yards, tools, classified ads, garage sales, etc. Far
more resources than I had growing up. So I started building. And
immediately got lots of criticism for ''too many fasteners", "too many
braces", "too heavy" furniture", etc. Apparently if you weren't
building low quality, wobbly stuff, you weren't doing it right!

People raised around crap go through a change when exposed to the good
stuff. I have been a corrupting force in this regard.

I mean, really, who sets out to build wobbly crap? Either you don't
know any better or you just don't care.





And the shame of it all, I am not really impressed with the vast
majority of the stuff being offered, even the good stuff, with one
exception. I recently ordered 6 dining room chairs from an Amish
furniture store. These are well built, comfortable,and all solid wood
chairs. Not all Amish furniture is great but the worse is typically as
good as all the others best.

Several years ago we had an upper end furniture store that sold the
Mission style, Stickley brand furniture. From the front it looked nice
but it showed signs of being mass produced and the back sides looked
terrible.

On 5/1/2013 2:43 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
.com...

I mean, really, who sets out to build wobbly crap? Either you don't
know any better or you just don't care.

To expand upon this a bit. I think there is also a resource component to
these decisions... Generally, people would like book shelves made of the
most suitable materials with proven construction methods. However, the
reality is many lack deep enough pockets to make it happen... The
competing agendas of satisfying the needs for food, shelter, clothing,
transportation, education and entertainment command a higher weight in
the allocation of their finite financial resources than do book shelves.
In those cases a complete Ikea or Saunder unit, that may cost in total
as much as one nice cherry board, becomes the choice by economic
necessity. Here it's a case of satisficing versus optimizing and it can
still be considered a rational decision.

I will have to disagree a little bit again. From repeated first hand
experience with customers, people generally would not know suitable
materials and proven construction methods if they knocked them upside
their heads. They still pay way too much for crap, I mean pretty to
look at but don't move it. As an example if you Google Amish furniture
store and go to one of those stores I believe you will find top quality
furniture that beats the pants off the pricing you would find most any
where else. I mentioned to Lee that I recently bought 6 Amish made
dining room chairs. They were $250 each. Not cheap but they come with
a life time warranty that I will probably never need and were very
competitively priced with much less quality name brand stuff.
When I was quoted the price for all 6 chairs I did not hesitate to
accept. That price above included delivery.

For twice this price, you would get it at an Amish Furniture store and
never have to worry about replacing. And again the Amish is delivered
assembled, this set is neither.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S69917334/

I know, twice as much but the much better choice.

On Wed, 01 May 2013 18:36:15 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/1/2013 1:48 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:


"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

I am going to call you on that one, considering furniture, I seriously
doubt that most people today realize that there is better furniture to
be had. Most people that I have dealt with think they have good
furniture. They see how I build my furniture and that is generally all
they need to see to commission me to build for them.


Yep, that is soooo... true.

As someone who was raised on home built and second hand furniture, I did
not know how BAD conventional furniture was until I got out in the world
and saw it for the first time. I was amazed how flimsy a lit of it
was. I remember building some bookshelves that did not fit in a
particular space. I gave the bookshelves to my sister. She, and her
house visitors, were amazed on how "sturdy" the bookshelves were. That
was over 25 years ago. Visitors to her house, 25 years later, still
remark on how "sturdy" those shelves are.

That only means one thing. There is a lot of crap out there and when
people run into something different, it is a bit of a revelation for them.

Another thing. I came to the big city and had access to hardware
stores, lumber yards, tools, classified ads, garage sales, etc. Far
more resources than I had growing up. So I started building. And
immediately got lots of criticism for ''too many fasteners", "too many
braces", "too heavy" furniture", etc. Apparently if you weren't
building low quality, wobbly stuff, you weren't doing it right!

People raised around crap go through a change when exposed to the good
stuff. I have been a corrupting force in this regard.

I mean, really, who sets out to build wobbly crap? Either you don't
know any better or you just don't care.





And the shame of it all, I am not really impressed with the vast
majority of the stuff being offered, even the good stuff, with one
exception. I recently ordered 6 dining room chairs from an Amish
furniture store. These are well built, comfortable,and all solid wood
chairs. Not all Amish furniture is great but the worse is typically as
good as all the others best.

Our dining and bedroom furniture is all Amish (Mission style) Cherry.
Nice stuff but it wasn't cheap. It was about the same price as top
end furniture store stuff (about $15K for both rooms).

Several years ago we had an upper end furniture store that sold the
Mission style, Stickley brand furniture. From the front it looked nice
but it showed signs of being mass produced and the back sides looked
terrible.

Does anyone really look at the back sides? I find that most stuff in
the furniture stores has a really cheap looking finish, even the top
of the line stuff. It seems that *dark* stain is back in, too. Ick!
That's what people want, though.

On Wed, 01 May 2013 18:53:27 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/1/2013 2:43 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
.com...

I mean, really, who sets out to build wobbly crap? Either you don't
know any better or you just don't care.

To expand upon this a bit. I think there is also a resource component to
these decisions... Generally, people would like book shelves made of the
most suitable materials with proven construction methods. However, the
reality is many lack deep enough pockets to make it happen... The
competing agendas of satisfying the needs for food, shelter, clothing,
transportation, education and entertainment command a higher weight in
the allocation of their finite financial resources than do book shelves.
In those cases a complete Ikea or Saunder unit, that may cost in total
as much as one nice cherry board, becomes the choice by economic
necessity. Here it's a case of satisficing versus optimizing and it can
still be considered a rational decision.

I will have to disagree a little bit again. From repeated first hand
experience with customers, people generally would not know suitable
materials and proven construction methods if they knocked them upside
their heads. They still pay way too much for crap, I mean pretty to
look at but don't move it. As an example if you Google Amish furniture
store and go to one of those stores I believe you will find top quality
furniture that beats the pants off the pricing you would find most any
where else. I mentioned to Lee that I recently bought 6 Amish made
dining room chairs. They were $250 each. Not cheap but they come with
a life time warranty that I will probably never need and were very
competitively priced with much less quality name brand stuff.
When I was quoted the price for all 6 chairs I did not hesitate to
accept. That price above included delivery.

For twice this price, you would get it at an Amish Furniture store and
never have to worry about replacing. And again the Amish is delivered
assembled, this set is neither.

THe Amish place we bought ours from delivers but wants $1.50/mile,
IIRC. That kinda puts it out of range, now, since it's 600mi. away.
;-) I will be ordering more pieces to fill out what we have, and
perhaps a breakfast set (pub table) but I'll have to pick it all up.



http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S69917334/

I know, twice as much but the much better choice.

Amazing. I was shocked at their kitchens when we went through the
place a couple of years ago. The stuff wouldn't last five years. It's
a good place to buy butcher block, though.

On 05/01/2013 04:53 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 18:36:15 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/1/2013 1:48 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:


"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

I am going to call you on that one, considering furniture, I seriously
doubt that most people today realize that there is better furniture to
be had. Most people that I have dealt with think they have good
furniture. They see how I build my furniture and that is generally all
they need to see to commission me to build for them.


Yep, that is soooo... true.

As someone who was raised on home built and second hand furniture, I did
not know how BAD conventional furniture was until I got out in the world
and saw it for the first time. I was amazed how flimsy a lit of it
was. I remember building some bookshelves that did not fit in a
particular space. I gave the bookshelves to my sister. She, and her
house visitors, were amazed on how "sturdy" the bookshelves were. That
was over 25 years ago. Visitors to her house, 25 years later, still
remark on how "sturdy" those shelves are.

That only means one thing. There is a lot of crap out there and when
people run into something different, it is a bit of a revelation for them.

Another thing. I came to the big city and had access to hardware
stores, lumber yards, tools, classified ads, garage sales, etc. Far
more resources than I had growing up. So I started building. And
immediately got lots of criticism for ''too many fasteners", "too many
braces", "too heavy" furniture", etc. Apparently if you weren't
building low quality, wobbly stuff, you weren't doing it right!

People raised around crap go through a change when exposed to the good
stuff. I have been a corrupting force in this regard.

I mean, really, who sets out to build wobbly crap? Either you don't
know any better or you just don't care.





And the shame of it all, I am not really impressed with the vast
majority of the stuff being offered, even the good stuff, with one
exception. I recently ordered 6 dining room chairs from an Amish
furniture store. These are well built, comfortable,and all solid wood
chairs. Not all Amish furniture is great but the worse is typically as
good as all the others best.

Our dining and bedroom furniture is all Amish (Mission style) Cherry.
Nice stuff but it wasn't cheap. It was about the same price as top
end furniture store stuff (about $15K for both rooms).

Several years ago we had an upper end furniture store that sold the
Mission style, Stickley brand furniture. From the front it looked nice
but it showed signs of being mass produced and the back sides looked
terrible.

Does anyone really look at the back sides? I find that most stuff in
the furniture stores has a really cheap looking finish, even the top
of the line stuff. It seems that *dark* stain is back in, too. Ick!
That's what people want, though.


That's why they call it "Ick-e-ah".


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

wrote:

Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted.
Now it all comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they
aren't butchers - couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it.
Seen a USDA stamp on a piece of meat recently? Try asking for a flat
bone sirloin.

Maybe where you live. I can get meat cut to order at any of the
supermarkets, here.

I'd almost bet that is true *IF* they can cut it off from a cryopak. Just
for jollies, try asking for a flat bone sirloin sometime and see what
response you get. Chances are they won't even know what it is.
____________________

Much of this has nothing to do machines, it has with lowering
knowledge, skill and craftmanship to a lower common denominator in
the interest of expediency and greater profits.

Nonsense. It's *all* economics. People choose not to pay for such
things, so they don't exist.

No, much of it is because many people don't know about such things or - if
they do - don't appreciate the difference. Same reason that many people
will never eat in a fine restaurant.

Lots of flash, little substance.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 5/1/2013 4:41 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 13:03:24 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/1/2013 12:22 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:32:38 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Bill wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:

It's worth mentioning how machines, in all of their speed,
omitted much ofthe "style"that had been a part of furniture.

That's very true. And not only in furniture.
I have no doubt that you are correct; what were you thinking of
(besides furniture)?

Computers? : )

Oh, many things. Consider the architecture of the early 1900s. Lots of
details inside and out that would be exorbitantly expensive now. Not even
many who would know how to do them.

Because not enough want them.

Shows too. Used to be you could get shoes in many widths (C, D, E, etc) as
well as lengths. Now medium and wide is about it.

Shoes? They still come in various widths. I wear 12EEEEEE. They're
not available everywhere but they are available. Amazon, for one.

Meat. Butchers used to get half beeves and cut what you wanted. Now it all
comes in cryopaks and the meat counter attendants - they aren't butchers -
couldn't cut bone in meat even if they had it. Seen a USDA stamp on a piece
of meat recently? Try asking for a flat bone sirloin.

Maybe where you live. I can get meat cut to order at any of the
supermarkets, here. There are butcher shops, too. I don't choose to,
often, because I'd rather not pay the price. Choice isn't just a cut
of beef.

Much of this has nothing to do machines, it has with lowering knowledge,
skill and craftmanship to a lower common denominator in the interest of
expediency and greater profits.

Nonsense. It's *all* economics. People choose not to pay for such
things, so they don't exist.

I am going to call you on that one, considering furniture, I seriously
doubt that most people today realize that there is better furniture to
be had. Most people that I have dealt with think they have good
furniture. They see how I build my furniture and that is generally all
they need to see to commission me to build for them.

Sure they do but they're not willing to pay for it and it all ratchets
down from there.

Actually they are willing to pay for it. I compete with furniture
stores and as I have previously mentioned in two other responses an
Amish furniture store is typically competitively priced with the even
some of Ikea's higher end stuff.

The problem is that there is a much higher profit margin when you sell
the crap so that is all that is offered in most instances. Do your
homework and shop the suppliers and you will find good furniture at very
competitive prices.

As an example, these are the chairs that I bought, I had my choice of
wood and finish and I paid $250 each, $275 with arms. for furniture
that is going to last a life time this is very inexpensive.

I am very reasonable with my pricing but would not want to compete with
this store.

On 5/1/2013 7:19 PM, Leon wrote:

A link would help. ;~)




http://www.egamishfurniture.com/dining_chairs