I started a new thread for this project.

I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
doors for my project.

In my newbeness, I have assumed that a face frame was just another piece
of plywood with holes cut out (and I suspect that would work if it was
going to be painted), but I am beyond that now. I just recalled that I
could go browse all of Swingman's pictures again, but since I got this
far I will ask my question:

I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
that you would proceed? Admittedly, this makes me ponder whether wood
expansion/contraction could weaken the glue joints holding the face
frame to the carcase.



BTW, I tried out my new Milwaukee jigsaw in an unrelated house repair
yesterday (cutting a few planks of Ash), and got very smoothe cuts--the
best I've experienced from a jigsaw. However, my experience has been
limited to the use of several of vintage Craftsman sabre saws, each of
which had disuaded me from the use of such saws. I found the little LED
light on the front to the Milwaukee saw very convenient too!

Bill

Bill wrote:


I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is
typically make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest
of the cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this
the way that you would proceed? Admittedly, this makes me ponder
whether wood expansion/contraction could weaken the glue joints
holding the face frame to the carcase.


Well - since that's how fine quality furnishings are constructed, one might
guess...



BTW, I tried out my new Milwaukee jigsaw in an unrelated house repair
yesterday (cutting a few planks of Ash), and got very smoothe
cuts--the best I've experienced from a jigsaw. However, my experience
has been limited to the use of several of vintage Craftsman sabre
saws, each of which had disuaded me from the use of such saws. I
found the little LED light on the front to the Milwaukee saw very
convenient too!

No doubt - your saw is in a completely different league than those old
Craftsman tools. You're going to love it more every time you use it. And -
those LED's are the ticket, aren't they?

--

-Mike-

On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:

I started a new thread for this project.

I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
doors for my project.
\
I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
that you would proceed?

More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to
skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.

Still have that Sketchup?

Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
and casework go together:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0

Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0

There are many variations on this theme, as well as many advantages for
doing it as modeled, as it is a method that has stood the test of time.
BTW, these are dynamic models, which can be re-sized to make it easier
to fill linear distances in a kitchen or built-in areas for both
planning, bidding, and building.

Often when you are building furniture that is casework based, it is
beneficial to use face frames on both sides of the casework ... I use
this method frequently, and I know for a fact that Leon uses it to good
advantage on those beautiful tall cabinets he builds.

Admittedly, this makes me ponder whether wood
expansion/contraction could weaken the glue joints holding the face
frame to the carcase.

FF's rails and stiles are generally 1 1/2" - 3" wide, so for most
species that you would use to build face frames there will not be enough
cross grain instability to cause that problem.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:

I started a new thread for this project.

I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
doors for my project.

I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
that you would proceed?

More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to
skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.

Still have that Sketchup?

Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
and casework go together:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0


Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0


Mucho-Thanks!

If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of
the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to
increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the
grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.

I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides
pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the
lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.

You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!

Bill

Bill wrote:

I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is
typically make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest
of the cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this
the way that you would proceed?

Yes, it is the norm.

Admittedly, this makes me ponder
whether wood expansion/contraction could weaken the glue joints
holding the face frame to the carcase.

Face frames are normally narrow, NP with expansion/contraction popping them
loose from the case. One can always attach them mechanically too; heck,
that is my norm...FF screwed to the case, no glue, screw holes plugged with
face grain plugs cut from same wood as the FF.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 12/2/2012 9:35 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:

I started a new thread for this project.

I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
doors for my project.

I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
that you would proceed?

More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to
skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.

Still have that Sketchup?

Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
and casework go together:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0



Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0



Mucho-Thanks!

If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of
the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to
increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the
grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.

I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides
pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the
lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.

No dominoes or tenons on the face frames as a rule. Not necessary when
using pocket joinery to make face frames.

Since the face frame will be attached to the casework, pocket hole
joinery supplies more than enough joint strength necessary for the face
frame.

IOW, both components, face frame and casework, end up with more strength
and rigidity than they possess individually.

You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!

Remember what we previously preached about "square" being the holy grail
of cabinet making?

Want to understand how cabinets in factories and large scale cabinet
shops are made consistently square, where BOTH efficiency and square are
of paramount importance?

FACT: It's much, much easier to build a perfectly square "face frame",
with fewer parts, than it is to build/assemble perfectly square,
multiple part casework, and then attempt to add the face frame to the
casework.

So, use the same methods that the big boy cabinet shops and method
engineers in the factories use to insure their products garner the
multitude of benefits and value from building square products:

Build your face frames first, complete with grooves and dadoes ...
taking care to build it perfectly square (batch cutting FF parts,
dadoes, etc).

Only then do you assemble the casework parts (end panels, floors and
partitions) ... directly _on top of_ that perfectly square face frame
.... and the grooves/rabbets/dadoes make it virtually impossible to go wrong.

Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits therefrom.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/3/12 7:49 AM, Swingman wrote:

Remember what we previously preached about "square" being the holy grail
of cabinet making?

Want to understand how cabinets in factories and large scale cabinet
shops are made consistently square, where BOTH efficiency and square are
of paramount importance?

FACT: It's much, much easier to build a perfectly square "face frame",
with fewer parts, than it is to build/assemble perfectly square,
multiple part casework, and then attempt to add the face frame to the
casework.

So, use the same methods that the big boy cabinet shops and method
engineers in the factories use to insure their products garner the
multitude of benefits and value from building square products:

Build your face frames first, complete with grooves and dadoes ...
taking care to build it perfectly square (batch cutting FF parts,
dadoes, etc).

Only then do you assemble the casework parts (end panels, floors and
partitions) ... directly _on top of_ that perfectly square face frame
... and the grooves/rabbets/dadoes make it virtually impossible to go
wrong.

Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits therefrom.


This should be in a FAQ somewhere.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/3/2012 12:06 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/3/12 7:49 AM, Swingman wrote:

Remember what we previously preached about "square" being the holy grail
of cabinet making?

Want to understand how cabinets in factories and large scale cabinet
shops are made consistently square, where BOTH efficiency and square are
of paramount importance?

FACT: It's much, much easier to build a perfectly square "face frame",
with fewer parts, than it is to build/assemble perfectly square,
multiple part casework, and then attempt to add the face frame to the
casework.

So, use the same methods that the big boy cabinet shops and method
engineers in the factories use to insure their products garner the
multitude of benefits and value from building square products:

Build your face frames first, complete with grooves and dadoes ...
taking care to build it perfectly square (batch cutting FF parts,
dadoes, etc).

Only then do you assemble the casework parts (end panels, floors and
partitions) ... directly _on top of_ that perfectly square face frame
... and the grooves/rabbets/dadoes make it virtually impossible to go
wrong.

Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits
therefrom.


This should be in a FAQ somewhere.

I agree; it's great stuff!

Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits therefrom. This should be in a FAQ somewhere. I agree; it's great stuff!


And do a final dry fit of all parts, before committing to glue-up?

Sonny

On 12/3/2012 11:57 AM, Sonny wrote:
Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits therefrom. This should be in a FAQ somewhere. I agree; it's great stuff!

And do a final dry fit of all parts, before committing to glue-up?

A quickie 'idiot check', to insure the shop dummy hasn't done something
stupid, is always in order ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/2/2012 9:35 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:

I started a new thread for this project.

I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
doors for my project.

I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
that you would proceed?

More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to
skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.

Still have that Sketchup?

Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
and casework go together:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0



Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0



Mucho-Thanks!

If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of
the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to
increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the
grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.

I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides
pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the
lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.

You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!

Bill


Bill the cabinets that I have been making lately, the last 14 cabinets
in the past 2 years actually have front and back face frames. I did not
use screws on the face frames but did use Domino's for the front and or
a combination of lap joint and domino on the back face frames. All face
frames mate with the carcase via dadoes in the mating sides.

You mentioned that this all has to fit the outer faces of the carcase
and that is very true. There is nothing wrong with using pocket hole
screws except with my back face frames the screws would show from the
front side. Additionally when you use pocket hole screws you are pretty
much locked into the where every thing fits when it comes time to mate
the carcase and the face frames. With Domino's you can use a wider
mortise setting so that you have a little wiggle room. Basically I dry
fit the carcase and also dry fit the face frame on top to insure it will
all fit together. I then remove the face frame and glue it together,
place it back on top of the of the dry fit carcase using waxed paper in
between to keep them from sticking to each other. With slightly over
sized mortices for the Domino's I get a little wiggle room, 1/8" or so.
While this does not seem like a lot of wiggle it is often a great help
especially when a single cabinet may have as many as 16 dadoes in the
carcase and both face frames that all have to come together.
Typically the wiggle room aids in assembly and disappears once all the
pieces are in place and the clamps have every thing fitting as it should
be while the glue sets.
It is imperative that that your measurements and cuts are accurate and
where they need to be.

Leon wrote:
On 12/2/2012 9:35 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:

I started a new thread for this project.

I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
doors for my project.

I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
that you would proceed?

More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to
skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.

Still have that Sketchup?

Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
and casework go together:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0




Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0




Mucho-Thanks!

If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of
the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to
increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the
grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.

I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides
pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the
lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.

You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!

Bill


Bill the cabinets that I have been making lately, the last 14 cabinets
in the past 2 years actually have front and back face frames. I did not
use screws on the face frames but did use Domino's for the front and or
a combination of lap joint and domino on the back face frames. All face
frames mate with the carcase via dadoes in the mating sides.

You mentioned that this all has to fit the outer faces of the carcase
and that is very true. There is nothing wrong with using pocket hole
screws except with my back face frames the screws would show from the
front side. Additionally when you use pocket hole screws you are pretty
much locked into the where every thing fits when it comes time to mate
the carcase and the face frames. With Domino's you can use a wider
mortise setting so that you have a little wiggle room. Basically I dry
fit the carcase and also dry fit the face frame on top to insure it will
all fit together. I then remove the face frame and glue it together,
place it back on top of the of the dry fit carcase using waxed paper in
between to keep them from sticking to each other.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. If you were going to
make two FFs, you would glue and fit them to a dry-fit carcase, and then
glue (or pocket hole screw) the carcase and the FFs together the next day?



With slightly over
sized mortices for the Domino's I get a little wiggle room, 1/8" or so.
While this does not seem like a lot of wiggle it is often a great help
especially when a single cabinet may have as many as 16 dadoes in the
carcase and both face frames that all have to come together.
Typically the wiggle room aids in assembly and disappears once all the
pieces are in place and the clamps have every thing fitting as it should
be while the glue sets.
It is imperative that that your measurements and cuts are accurate and
where they need to be.


It occurred to me today that I either need pre-dimensioned wood, or need
to hand or machine-joint my Cherry wood that I haven't got yet.
I have collected quite a few hand planes.

On 12/3/2012 6:16 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 12/2/2012 9:35 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:

I started a new thread for this project.

I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
doors for my project.

I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is
typically
make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
that you would proceed?

More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid
methods to
skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.

Still have that Sketchup?

Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
and casework go together:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0





Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0





Mucho-Thanks!

If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of
the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to
increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the
grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.

I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides
pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the
lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.

You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!

Bill


Bill the cabinets that I have been making lately, the last 14 cabinets
in the past 2 years actually have front and back face frames. I did not
use screws on the face frames but did use Domino's for the front and or
a combination of lap joint and domino on the back face frames. All face
frames mate with the carcase via dadoes in the mating sides.

You mentioned that this all has to fit the outer faces of the carcase
and that is very true. There is nothing wrong with using pocket hole
screws except with my back face frames the screws would show from the
front side. Additionally when you use pocket hole screws you are pretty
much locked into the where every thing fits when it comes time to mate
the carcase and the face frames. With Domino's you can use a wider
mortise setting so that you have a little wiggle room. Basically I dry
fit the carcase and also dry fit the face frame on top to insure it will
all fit together. I then remove the face frame and glue it together,
place it back on top of the of the dry fit carcase using waxed paper in
between to keep them from sticking to each other.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. If you were going to
make two FFs, you would glue and fit them to a dry-fit carcase, and then
glue (or pocket hole screw) the carcase and the FFs together the next day?

Close ;~) No screws at all. The carcase parts are fitted with dadoes
also. I glue the front face frames together on the dry fit carcase,
turn all that over and do the same with the back face frame. Then I
pull the face frames off, front and back, glue the dado of the carcase
sides, top, and bottom, and glue all of that to the front and back face
frame dadoes at one time. I usually use 12~16 clamps to sandwich all of
that together.



With slightly over
sized mortices for the Domino's I get a little wiggle room, 1/8" or so.
While this does not seem like a lot of wiggle it is often a great help
especially when a single cabinet may have as many as 16 dadoes in the
carcase and both face frames that all have to come together.
Typically the wiggle room aids in assembly and disappears once all the
pieces are in place and the clamps have every thing fitting as it should
be while the glue sets.
It is imperative that that your measurements and cuts are accurate and
where they need to be.


It occurred to me today that I either need pre-dimensioned wood, or need
to hand or machine-joint my Cherry wood that I haven't got yet.
I have collected quite a few hand planes.

Yes you absolutely want stock that is precisely the size you think it is.

On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:

I started a new thread for this project.

I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
doors for my project.

Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip
of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)

I found I was able to view (through Google) dozens, if not hundreds or
more, or various pictures of cabinet doors. At this point I don't see
how I could settle for cabinet doors I didn't have to agonize over! I
hope this helps someone spill their morning cofee! It makes me laugh,
sort of.

It's all fun and games until noticing that one end of the table is 3/4
of an inch higher than the other end! : )

Bill

On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 00:22:01 -0500, Bill wrote:


On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:

I started a new thread for this project.

I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
doors for my project.

Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip
of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)

Jewelcome.


I found I was able to view (through Google) dozens, if not hundreds or
more, or various pictures of cabinet doors. At this point I don't see
how I could settle for cabinet doors I didn't have to agonize over! I
hope this helps someone spill their morning cofee! It makes me laugh,
sort of.

Bill OBSESSING? Whoda thunk it? g


It's all fun and games until noticing that one end of the table is 3/4
of an inch higher than the other end! : )

Helps with the runoff during a rainfall, right? What, you say it
doesn't rain in your living room? Oh. That could be a problem.
Measure the legs, cut to fit, sand to dewobble. If you have a large
assembly table, you can stick an 80grit PSA pad down, set the table on
the assy table, and rub the long leg over it a few times, then move
over 'til the legs are all on the table. Repeat until wobble goes
away.

--
....in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

On 12/5/2012 11:22 PM, Bill wrote:
Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip
of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)

Be careful now ...these days about the only thing in the kitchen cabinet
business that screams "CHEAP" louder than lipped (partial inset) cabinet
doors is attaching a fake stile to one lipped door in a two door cabinet.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/6/2012 9:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/5/2012 11:22 PM, Bill wrote:
Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip
of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)

Be careful now ...these days about the only thing in the kitchen cabinet
business that screams "CHEAP" louder than lipped (partial inset) cabinet
doors is attaching a fake stile to one lipped door in a two door
cabinet.

It was just a lesson I picked up, I'm not married to it.

An "inset" door adds more to the aura of craftsmanship, ay?

I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took me
a few seconds to even imagine one.

After I build a carcase, I can assess whether it will be able to support
inset doors or not--or maybe just one of each! : )

On 12/6/2012 12:39 PM, Bill wrote:
On 12/6/2012 9:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/5/2012 11:22 PM, Bill wrote:
Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip
of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)

Be careful now ...these days about the only thing in the kitchen cabinet
business that screams "CHEAP" louder than lipped (partial inset) cabinet
doors is attaching a fake stile to one lipped door in a two door
cabinet.

It was just a lesson I picked up, I'm not married to it.

An "inset" door adds more to the aura of craftsmanship, ay?

I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took me
a few seconds to even imagine one.

After I build a carcase, I can assess whether it will be able to support
inset doors or not

Oops, I should have said a carcase and a *face frame*!


--or maybe just one of each! : )

On 12/6/2012 11:54 AM, Bill wrote:
On 12/6/2012 12:39 PM, Bill wrote:
On 12/6/2012 9:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/5/2012 11:22 PM, Bill wrote:
Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and
lip
of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)

Be careful now ...these days about the only thing in the kitchen cabinet
business that screams "CHEAP" louder than lipped (partial inset) cabinet
doors is attaching a fake stile to one lipped door in a two door
cabinet.

It was just a lesson I picked up, I'm not married to it.

An "inset" door adds more to the aura of craftsmanship, ay?

I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took me
a few seconds to even imagine one.

After I build a carcase, I can assess whether it will be able to support
inset doors or not

Oops, I should have said a carcase and a *face frame*!

Listen up!

preach mode

Equally important with batch cutting, and the overriding pursuit of
square, in building cabinetry and furnitu

Design parameters, and certainly the final dimensions of many components
(doors and drawers), more often than not hinge (no pun intended) upon
the hardware being used!

Rule: Decide upon the hardware you are going to use for the entire
project ...to wit: hinges and hardware for the doors; drawer slides and
hardware for the drawers.

Rule: Then purchase those hinges, drawer slides and all hardware
_BEFORE_ you begin the project; or, at a very minimum, satisfy yourself
110% that said hardware, or alternate hardware that requires the exact
same dimensions you built to, will be available upon completion.

There are NO exceptions to the two above rules ... none.

Or, more simply put: Decide upon your hardware before you design and build.

/preach mode

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Bill wrote:

I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took
me a few seconds to even imagine one.

I can't say I agree with you (or Swingman) on this. The stile isn't fake
except that it isn't part of the face frame. What it does is give you
complete access to a large, double door cabinet.

Logically, large things are stored in large cabinets and if there were a
center stile on the face frame the size of storable items would be cut way
down.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 00:22:01 -0500, Bill wrote:

I found I was able to view (through Google) dozens, if not hundreds or
more, or various pictures of cabinet doors. At this point I don't see
how I could settle for cabinet doors I didn't have to agonize over! I
hope this helps someone spill their morning cofee! It makes me laugh,
sort of.

Bill OBSESSING? Whoda thunk it? g

I think the "Kid-in-a-candyshop" analogy fits pretty well.
Lots of oohing and ahhing! : )

My mom used to hand us kids the Sears catalog, and tell us to pick
something out. Like the Red Rider BB-Gun, with the compass in the stock.

On 12/6/2012 3:59 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:

I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took
me a few seconds to even imagine one.

I can't say I agree with you (or Swingman) on this. The stile isn't fake
except that it isn't part of the face frame. What it does is give you
complete access to a large, double door cabinet.

On a properly designed, modern cabinet and properly hung/hinged doors I
can get that without a center stile, and, better yet, without having to
open and close cabinet doors in sequence:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554... 994414540946

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554... 985289451570

Thirty years ago, both those cabinets would have had partial inset doors
with a fake center stile because it was easier/cheaper to do it that
way, and took less skill.

Even worse on frameless cabinets ... ugh.

Logically, large things are stored in large cabinets and if there were a
center stile on the face frame the size of storable items would be cut way
down.

Not necessary in today's modern kitchen, as shown above.

Besides, there is little as fugly as the ubiquitous dings on the
adjacent door made by the fake stile when opening/closing in the wrong
sequence ... unless it is the ubiquitous off-the-shelf molding
traditionally used to make the lip by those without the skill set to do
a proper door.

My clients can't wait to get rid of the damned things ... and I haven't
had any one request them in longer than I can remember.

Of course, you're correct ... YMMV

--
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 12/6/2012 3:59 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:

I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took
me a few seconds to even imagine one.

I can't say I agree with you (or Swingman) on this. The stile isn't
fake except that it isn't part of the face frame. What it does is
give you complete access to a large, double door cabinet.

On a properly designed, modern cabinet and properly hung/hinged doors
I can get that without a center stile, and, better yet, without
having to open and close cabinet doors in sequence:

Very true except I like solid wood overlay doors and need an area for
expansion/contraction.

"Solid" because I like the clean look; "overlay" because I can get cleaner
by doing away with pulls by cutting a short cove in the top centers. YMMV

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[quote=Swingman;2971419]On 12/3/2012 11:57 AM, Sonny wrote:
Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits therefrom. This should be in a FAQ somewhere. I agree; it's great stuff!

And do a final dry fit of all parts, before committing to glue-up?

Agree with you and thanks for starting this tread form where I got many useful ideas regarding this tips. I also like solid wood overly doors.

Swingman,

You posted a SU drawing of assembled rails and stiles a short while back
(from your DC-WallCabinet).

I assume you knock down a wall in each of the stiles (so that the groove
is not obstructed by the side of the stile).
I assume you do this with the TS, carefully, while you're cutting the
other grooves,
as your machine will already be set-up for it after you cut grooves in
the respective rails.

If I understand your suggestions, I think a reasonable sequence of
operations (omitting the cabinet doors) is:

1. Glue faceframe parts together.

2. Cut the sides, top, and back of the cabinet to fit the face frame.

3. Glue the pieces from Step 2 together and into the face face

Please correct me if anything looks amiss! Your drawing will certainly
result in my making the "lip" on the bottom smaller
(and more sophisticated-looking)--1/8", then I would have made it. A
nice touch..

Cheers,
Bill


By the way, to my surprise I found I can get a 1/4" Cherry dowel at
Rockler for a few bucks. If I slice some notches (to avoid
glue-squeezeout) on the bottom 5/4" of a length of a dowel, will this
give me a suitable dowel for my casework joinery? I intend them for the
top and bottom in addition to the dado. I'm not sure it I need dowels
to secure the faceframe. I would prefer not to put dowels down the
front of the work unless it is suggested to help support the (heavy?)
cabinet doors. The impression I have is that glue is up to the task.

On 1/8/2013 1:18 AM, Bill wrote:
Swingman,

You posted a SU drawing of assembled rails and stiles a short while back
(from your DC-WallCabinet).

I assume you knock down a wall in each of the stiles (so that the groove
is not obstructed by the side of the stile).
I assume you do this with the TS, carefully, while you're cutting the
other grooves,
as your machine will already be set-up for it after you cut grooves in
the respective rails.

No, and AFTER assembly of the faceframe ... I almost always use my
laminate router to join the grooves in the rails with the grooves in the
stiles, and I almost always do it by hand, simply marking the lines with
a square as extensions of the existing dadoes, and routing to that line.

You can make a jig, and, IIRC, that is what Leon does, but I find I can
do it much quicker with almost the same accuracy (this operation doesn't
have to be the picture of perfection unless it is visible, in which case
I will use a chisel to mark the edges of the joining groove, then either
chisel it out or use the router by hand ... this latter method keeps the
edges nice and crisp if they are going to be visible, which they rarely are)

If I understand your suggestions,

Not "suggestions" ... this is a concise method/methodology, just as a
"method engineer" would dictate in a factory setting as a sequence of
events for fabrication of any part, including the whole.

I think a reasonable sequence of
operations (omitting the cabinet doors) is:

1. Glue faceframe parts together.

Cut your dadoes and grooves in the face frame stiles and rail BEFORE you
assemble the face frames (with the exception of the above).

When making a "cabinet", you will find assembling the cabinet's face
frame's with pocket hold joinery provides more than enough strength, and
is a quick and elegant method.

2. Cut the sides, top, and back of the cabinet to fit the face frame.

Cut ALL your end panels (sides) and floors (top and bottom, usually the
same dimension) at one time. Then

Cut all dadoes/grooves in your end panels, then

3. Glue the pieces from Step 2 together and into the face face

Lay the face frame face down on a suitably flat surface. Glue and
assemble the end panels and floors to each other, and to the face frame.
Clamp, nail, screw as needed.

4. Once the above casework is assembled (without the back), double check
your measurements for the back; cut backs to size; and glue, screw, nail
in place as desired.

Please correct me if anything looks amiss! Your drawing will certainly
result in my making the "lip" on the bottom smaller
(and more sophisticated-looking)--1/8", then I would have made it. A
nice touch..

I like having that 1/8" "lip" between the top of the bottom rail and the
floor of the cabinet, and I use it all the time, in every cabinet I
build, but it is optional ... some folks don't like it. I do.

Why? That "lip" forces the floor of the cabinet to be perfectly flat,
which can be difficult to do without the lip ... and, no matter how well
you choose your stock, plywood is not always flat, and Murphy guarantees
that the only non-flat part of the cabinet will end up where it looks
the worst.

Cheers,
Bill


By the way, to my surprise I found I can get a 1/4" Cherry dowel at
Rockler for a few bucks. If I slice some notches (to avoid
glue-squeezeout) on the bottom 5/4" of a length of a dowel, will this
give me a suitable dowel for my casework joinery? I intend them for the
top and bottom in addition to the dado.

That will work, but it is unnecessary. A properly sized, glued and
clamped dado joint will suffice. Most of the time, where you may need
some other type of mechanical fastener (screws, dowels, nails, brads),
it may well be in area that will covered by trim on the outside of the
cabinet ... in that case use an appropriately sized finish nail or brad.

Another trick to reinforce a dado joint in a cabinet is to toenail a
brad though the horizontal piece and into the vertical piece in such a
manner that is almost invisible, and being careful to not breakthrough
to the other side of the vertical pieces.

I'm not sure it I need dowels
to secure the faceframe.

Gluing the face frame to the casework will usually suffice.

I would prefer not to put dowels down the
front of the work unless it is suggested to help support the (heavy?)
cabinet doors. The impression I have is that glue is up to the task.

It is.

That said, I am one of those folks who, after handling, viewing and
observing some beautiful antique furniture from both the US and Europe,
have NO problem whatsoever using a strategically placed mechanical
fastener (finish nail/brad) in a visible part of a piece of furniture
.... what was done by the old masters is good enough for me.

I do take great care, as they did, in orderly, even placement of any
fastener, respecting the direction of the grain, and using an
appropriately colored filler that will make it almost indistinguishable
for other elements of the natural wood.

So be it ... in sixty years of making things out of wood I've not had a
single remark in that regard

And,for your Faceframes, by all means, spring for a Kreg pocket hole kit
.... you will be glad that you did.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/8/2013 10:02 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/8/2013 1:18 AM, Bill wrote:
Swingman,

You posted a SU drawing of assembled rails and stiles a short while back
(from your DC-WallCabinet).

I assume you knock down a wall in each of the stiles (so that the groove
is not obstructed by the side of the stile).
I assume you do this with the TS, carefully, while you're cutting the
other grooves,
as your machine will already be set-up for it after you cut grooves in
the respective rails.

No, and AFTER assembly of the faceframe ... I almost always use my
laminate router to join the grooves in the rails with the grooves in the
stiles, and I almost always do it by hand, simply marking the lines with
a square as extensions of the existing dadoes, and routing to that line.

You can make a jig, and, IIRC, that is what Leon does, but I find I can
do it much quicker with almost the same accuracy (this operation doesn't
have to be the picture of perfection unless it is visible, in which case
I will use a chisel to mark the edges of the joining groove, then either
chisel it out or use the router by hand ... this latter method keeps the
edges nice and crisp if they are going to be visible, which they rarely
are)

I am using a router fence/guide now to complete the unions of the
grooves on the face frames. Clean accurate cuts on this process are
more necessary for me as I commonly use "back" face frames on my
cabinets now. If the back of the cabinet is visible it is important
that the completed grooves look good. For front face frames with out a
mirror back the hand guided router is the best choice for me.

** Printed for further reflection. You're a clear writer. Thanks!!! **

Bill



Swingman wrote:
On 1/8/2013 1:18 AM, Bill wrote:
Swingman,

You posted a SU drawing of assembled rails and stiles a short while back
(from your DC-WallCabinet).

I assume you knock down a wall in each of the stiles (so that the groove
is not obstructed by the side of the stile).
I assume you do this with the TS, carefully, while you're cutting the
other grooves,
as your machine will already be set-up for it after you cut grooves in
the respective rails.

No, and AFTER assembly of the faceframe ... I almost always use my
laminate router to join the grooves in the rails with the grooves in
the stiles, and I almost always do it by hand, simply marking the
lines with a square as extensions of the existing dadoes, and routing
to that line.

You can make a jig, and, IIRC, that is what Leon does, but I find I
can do it much quicker with almost the same accuracy (this operation
doesn't have to be the picture of perfection unless it is visible, in
which case I will use a chisel to mark the edges of the joining
groove, then either chisel it out or use the router by hand ... this
latter method keeps the edges nice and crisp if they are going to be
visible, which they rarely are)

If I understand your suggestions,

Not "suggestions" ... this is a concise method/methodology, just as a
"method engineer" would dictate in a factory setting as a sequence of
events for fabrication of any part, including the whole.

I think a reasonable sequence of
operations (omitting the cabinet doors) is:

1. Glue faceframe parts together.

Cut your dadoes and grooves in the face frame stiles and rail BEFORE
you assemble the face frames (with the exception of the above).

When making a "cabinet", you will find assembling the cabinet's face
frame's with pocket hold joinery provides more than enough strength,
and is a quick and elegant method.

2. Cut the sides, top, and back of the cabinet to fit the face frame.

Cut ALL your end panels (sides) and floors (top and bottom, usually
the same dimension) at one time. Then

Cut all dadoes/grooves in your end panels, then

3. Glue the pieces from Step 2 together and into the face face

Lay the face frame face down on a suitably flat surface. Glue and
assemble the end panels and floors to each other, and to the face
frame. Clamp, nail, screw as needed.

4. Once the above casework is assembled (without the back), double
check your measurements for the back; cut backs to size; and glue,
screw, nail in place as desired.

Please correct me if anything looks amiss! Your drawing will certainly
result in my making the "lip" on the bottom smaller
(and more sophisticated-looking)--1/8", then I would have made it. A
nice touch..

I like having that 1/8" "lip" between the top of the bottom rail and
the floor of the cabinet, and I use it all the time, in every cabinet
I build, but it is optional ... some folks don't like it. I do.

Why? That "lip" forces the floor of the cabinet to be perfectly flat,
which can be difficult to do without the lip ... and, no matter how
well you choose your stock, plywood is not always flat, and Murphy
guarantees that the only non-flat part of the cabinet will end up
where it looks the worst.

Cheers,
Bill


By the way, to my surprise I found I can get a 1/4" Cherry dowel at
Rockler for a few bucks. If I slice some notches (to avoid
glue-squeezeout) on the bottom 5/4" of a length of a dowel, will this
give me a suitable dowel for my casework joinery? I intend them for the
top and bottom in addition to the dado.

That will work, but it is unnecessary. A properly sized, glued and
clamped dado joint will suffice. Most of the time, where you may need
some other type of mechanical fastener (screws, dowels, nails, brads),
it may well be in area that will covered by trim on the outside of the
cabinet ... in that case use an appropriately sized finish nail or brad.

Another trick to reinforce a dado joint in a cabinet is to toenail a
brad though the horizontal piece and into the vertical piece in such a
manner that is almost invisible, and being careful to not breakthrough
to the other side of the vertical pieces.

I'm not sure it I need dowels
to secure the faceframe.

Gluing the face frame to the casework will usually suffice.

I would prefer not to put dowels down the
front of the work unless it is suggested to help support the (heavy?)
cabinet doors. The impression I have is that glue is up to the task.

It is.

That said, I am one of those folks who, after handling, viewing and
observing some beautiful antique furniture from both the US and
Europe, have NO problem whatsoever using a strategically placed
mechanical fastener (finish nail/brad) in a visible part of a piece of
furniture ... what was done by the old masters is good enough for me.

I do take great care, as they did, in orderly, even placement of any
fastener, respecting the direction of the grain, and using an
appropriately colored filler that will make it almost
indistinguishable for other elements of the natural wood.

So be it ... in sixty years of making things out of wood I've not had
a single remark in that regard

And,for your Faceframes, by all means, spring for a Kreg pocket hole
kit ... you will be glad that you did.

Bill wrote:
** Printed for further reflection. You're a clear writer. Thanks!!! **

Thanks for the kind words, Bill. My fingers often trip over my thoughts
when typing, so if something is not clear just ask again.

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

Swingman wrote:
And, for your Faceframes, by all means, spring for a Kreg pocket hole
kit ... you will be glad that you did.


I may wish I did. How about my new plate jointer? I'll be using it,
at least, for my panels in my cabinet doors.
I can see, however, that gluing biscuits may not be as quick and
convenient as making pocket hole joints.

By the way, I did buy the 2" blade to cut slots for the FF biscuits
(encouraged by your recommendation, IIRC), but I'm not sure (yet) whether
biscuits of that size have a role in this project. Noticing that the #20
biscuits are 1" wide makes me think I would better
use the #10 which are 3/4" wide to make a butt-joint using 3/4"
plywood. I need to revisit my book on plate-jointers.

As long as my angles come out "true" (90-degrees) everything should be
okay! At least, that's the way I heard the preachin'! : )

Bill

Bill wrote:

As long as my angles come out "true" (90-degrees) everything should be
okay! At least, that's the way I heard the preachin'! : )

Bill

I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here who
help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

It's always rewarding to get feedback. And, it needs feet--how many I
don't know!

Cheers,
Bill

Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:

As long as my angles come out "true" (90-degrees) everything should
be okay! At least, that's the way I heard the preachin'! : )

Bill

I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here
who help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

It's always rewarding to get feedback. And, it needs feet--how many I
don't know!


Good job Bill. I'm curious why you feel the double layer for the top is
necessary? Have you considered corner bracing between the front rails and
the side rails (45 degree angle), which you could then drill to accept a
screw coming up from the underside into the bottom of the top? With the
dimensions of your project, a 3/4in top would be plenty strong enough
without doubling it up. Or... am I missing something in your design intent?

--

-Mike-

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 07:22:51 -0500, Bill
wrote:

Bill wrote:

As long as my angles come out "true" (90-degrees) everything should be
okay! At least, that's the way I heard the preachin'! : )

Sounds about right. I bought some of those clamp-on ABS jobbers to
help.


I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here who
help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

I dunno. I kinda like the cleaner lines of the earlier version, but
I'd add a solid back (with cable-routing holes in the bottom and hot
air escapes at the top)


It's always rewarding to get feedback. And, it needs feet--how many I
don't know!

Five. (one smack dab in the center)

--
All I want is a warm bed,
a kind word, and
U N L I M I T E D P O W E R !
--anon

Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:

As long as my angles come out "true" (90-degrees) everything should be
okay! At least, that's the way I heard the preachin'! : )

Bill

I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here who
help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

It's always rewarding to get feedback. And, it needs feet--how many I don't know!

Cheers,
Bill

Looking quite nice. A hint here. You mention that you left the
construction/measure lines visible to indicate where internal features are
located. You called x-ray. There is actually an x-ray icon normally at the
top that will actually show an x-ray view of your drawing. Located just
left of the icons that turn your color/materials off and on. The actual
x-ray view is normally better if you turn the color off and view in the
grey two tone mode. If you are not aware of the icon try it out. It
actually makes placement of lines and or components easier when you don't
normally have a clear view of where to reference attachment.

On 1/9/2013 6:22 AM, Bill wrote:
I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here who
help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Looking very good, Bill.

It's totally a matter of taste, and suit yourself, but I would put the
wider rails of your face frames on the bottom, not the top.

Also, you might want to consider making a similar base to this, with six
adjustable feet, for the TV unit to sit on:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...04288278669858

A base of this type would provide support for your span; make a nice
visual transition from the face frame; and would easily support six
adjustable feet (one in each corner, and two in the middle, front and
back) that would insure that the unit sits solidly on an uneven floor
without detracting from the visual aspect.

Although, this one is a bit more fancy with the curves, it gives the
appearance of having four feet, and if you do it like this, you will
only need four adjustable feet.

Here's the casework:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...16516513022130

Here's the casework with base attached:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...16532739249570

Here's what the base looks like from bottom side:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...16543789641538

Here's the whole enchilada trimmed out:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...16649603519954

Concept drawing, showing a wider unit than yours, sitting on a base with
four adjustable feet, with a whole lot more weight and longer span to
contend with:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...36626288014658

And, so you can orbit around something completed, here's the same model
I used to collaborate with the client, who lived a few hundred miles
away, for both the design and fabrication of the dining room set I made
for her:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0

Just some more ideas to play around with.

BTW, congratulation on your modeling. You are obviously becoming quite
proficient with SketchUp and it shows, AND, as we see here, it gives you
the ability to benefit with a bit of collaboration and swapping of ideas.

Whichever way you go, you're doing good ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Larry Jaques wrote:
I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here who
help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
I dunno. I kinda like the cleaner lines of the earlier version, but
I'd add a solid back (with cable-routing holes in the bottom and hot
air escapes at the top)
Gosh, I didn't think about hot air escapes at the top!
I just made a note of that!




It's always rewarding to get feedback. And, it needs feet--how many I
don't know!
Five. (one smack dab in the center)

--
All I want is a warm bed,
a kind word, and
U N L I M I T E D P O W E R !
--anon

Swingman wrote:
AND, as we see here, SketchUp gives you the ability to benefit with a
bit of collaboration and swapping of ideas.


You are very kind. Thank you for sharing so many ideas from your work.

Bill

Bill wrote in
:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Bill,

Not sure if you know this but you can export an image of your project
without the menu buttons by using File Export 2D Graphic.

This allows you to create an image of whatever view is on your screen at
the time without cluttering up the image. You can choose 4 different
formats for the image (jpg, tif, bmp, and png).

Hope this helps.

Steve

-Steve- wrote:
Bill wrote in
:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
Bill,

Not sure if you know this but you can export an image of your project
without the menu buttons by using File Export 2D Graphic.

This allows you to create an image of whatever view is on your screen at
the time without cluttering up the image. You can choose 4 different
formats for the image (jpg, tif, bmp, and png).

Hope this helps.
I didn't know that, and it will definitely help. Thank you!

BTW, are you the Steve from Indiana who teaches woodworking classes?



Steve

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 19:18:17 -0500, Bill
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here who
help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
I dunno. I kinda like the cleaner lines of the earlier version, but
I'd add a solid back (with cable-routing holes in the bottom and hot
air escapes at the top)
Gosh, I didn't think about hot air escapes at the top!
I just made a note of that!

It's crucial for higher powered amplifiers and such. If you have lots
of hot items enclosed, think about mounting one or more muffin fans in
there, too. Suck cool air in from the bottom or push hot air out the
top.

--
I started out with nothing and
I still have most of it left!
--anon