seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

Try Danny Proulx's "Build your own kitchen cabinets". He does both framed
and frameless. Very good book. I got it through
http://www.woodworkersbookclub.com, but I am sure you can get it at any
bookstore or try your library.

Lars


"Marshall Boykin" wrote in message
...
seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

Having installed a few different brands and not really caring for the
look, my opinion of them is somewhat negative.

There are certain challenges with installation as you have no chance
to trim the stiles (since there aren't any) to fit an out of plum
wall. You also can't mold against a wall without leaving the cabinet
away from the wall which kinda defeats the purpose of a frame less
cabinet. So, in these cases, you end up fitting some kind of filler
to the wall which also detracts from the frame less look.
Another place for concern is when a lower cabinet with a drawer is
against a wall that may have a trimmed opening close to the cabinet
run. Imagine walking through the door of a bath with a vanity to your
left. If the vanity has a drawer on the left side and the opening is
too close to the vanity, the drawer will hit the casing. In this case
again, you have to set the cabinet away from the wall.
Lastly, the face frame of a cabinet adds considerable strength to the
four sides of the carcass. Most of the frame less cabinets we have
installed are made with 3/4" particle board covered with melamine or
something similar. The bottom of the cabinet IMHO will sag over time
since you can grab it and easily flex it without much effort. Try
that with a traditional framed cabinet.
Other than those minor issues....I like them fine.

Mike O.

In article ,
"Marshall Boykin" wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

I suggest you start by learning everything there is to know about the 32
mm system. Excellent cabinets are possible with the European cabinets.
Many of the issues with that cabinet style are resolved at the time of
design. I found the best way to deal with those cabinets was to build a
4" high kick frame which I would level/scribe to the floor and hug the
wall. The wall rail would be narrower than the front rail and wouldn't
touch the floor. It would be screwed against the studs when levelled.
Then I would park the cabinets on that kick, eliminating all hassles
with the cabinets lining up. Screw them all together as a big unit and
push them against the wall, dropping shims where the screws would go
into the studs. There is no need for the cabinets to be attached to the
kick.

If you make your cabinets 23.5" deep, you'll get excellent yield from
your sheet goods as well. Uppers @ 11.5" depth

Rob.

PS, the 32 mm system works best if your zero line is the top of your
base cabinets. All dimensions either go up by 32 mm increments from
there, or down. Now that self levelling lasers are so cheap, you can put
that line higher. YMMV

Robatoy wrote:
In article ,
"Marshall Boykin" wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

I suggest you start by learning everything there is to know about the
32
mm system. Excellent cabinets are possible with the European
cabinets.
Many of the issues with that cabinet style are resolved at the time
of
design. I found the best way to deal with those cabinets was to build
a
4" high kick frame which I would level/scribe to the floor and hug
the
wall. The wall rail would be narrower than the front rail and
wouldn't
touch the floor. It would be screwed against the studs when levelled.

Then I would park the cabinets on that kick, eliminating all hassles
with the cabinets lining up. Screw them all together as a big unit
and
push them against the wall, dropping shims where the screws would go
into the studs. There is no need for the cabinets to be attached to
the
kick.

If you make your cabinets 23.5" deep, you'll get excellent yield from

your sheet goods as well. Uppers @ 11.5" depth

Rob.

PS, the 32 mm system works best if your zero line is the top of your
base cabinets. All dimensions either go up by 32 mm increments from
there, or down. Now that self levelling lasers are so cheap, you can
put
that line higher. YMMV

Good reference: Building Frameless Kitchen Cabinets, by Danny Proulx.

On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

It's crap, ugly and you Americans do it far better with face frames.

Now don't hold back Andy...

Andy Dingley wrote:


It's crap, ugly and you Americans do it far better with face frames.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

It's crap, ugly and you Americans do it far better with face frames.

I agree, but there's a ****pot full of it around, and more is built
daily.

In article .com,
says...

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

It's crap, ugly and you Americans do it far better with face frames.

I agree, but there's a ****pot full of it around, and more is built
daily.


The reason Europe has had so much for so long frameless cabinetry is
because of the high price of wood. We're catching up fast; go to any
"Grand Rapids" type furniture store and you will be amazed how little
wood is used. The same model is true for cars, with the high price of
gas we will all soon be driving Minis, although I must admit the latest
iteration of the car is kinda cute.

In article , LDR wrote:

The reason Europe has had so much for so long frameless cabinetry is
because of the high price of wood. We're catching up fast; go to any
"Grand Rapids" type furniture store and you will be amazed how little
wood is used. The same model is true for cars, with the high price of
gas we will all soon be driving Minis, although I must admit the latest
iteration of the car is kinda cute.

What, the Cooper? Man, those things are uglyyyyyyyyyyyy - they look like
a flathead catfish. Just need some curb feelers on the front end to complete
the picture.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , LDR
wrote:

The reason Europe has had so much for so long frameless cabinetry is
because of the high price of wood. We're catching up fast; go to any
"Grand Rapids" type furniture store and you will be amazed how little
wood is used. The same model is true for cars, with the high price of
gas we will all soon be driving Minis, although I must admit the latest
iteration of the car is kinda cute.

What, the Cooper? Man, those things are uglyyyyyyyyyyyy - they look like
a flathead catfish. Just need some curb feelers on the front end to complete
the picture.

The new one doesn't even smell right. It's an abomination.
At one point during my college years, I owned 6 minis at the same time.
I had one 1275 S on which every door/boot and fender had a different
colour. I found it was cheaper to buy a used 850 than to buy replacement
parts. Plus it gave me a stash of fuel pumps.

One guy in a Camaro wanted to race me.. I said: "Sure, 8 times around
the block." By lap 7 I was on his rear bumper.

The ONLY Michael Caine movie I have seen more than once, is *MY* kind of
porn: The original Italian Job.

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:

On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

It's crap, ugly and you Americans do it far better with face frames.

sez the dude who drinks warm beer. The Americans drink COLD beer so they
can tell apart from horse-****.

*ducking*

This Dutch Canadian has built quite a few of both styles.
Apples and oranges. Totally different look/customer.
I developed a taste for stark, straight lines and book-matched veneer
doors..all on one plane. Frankly, I got bored with the raised panel look
(with the exception of a proper shaker).

On Fri, 13 May 2005 14:50:37 GMT, Pat Barber
wrote:

Now don't hold back Andy...

You guys only see a rare few new installs. As they're unusual, they're
at the higher end of things. Round here every cheap flat has a kitchen
full of this stuff - it doesn't last, the materials are plain nasty and
it looks shabby in no time at all.

On 13 May 2005 07:55:45 -0700, the inscrutable "Charlie Self"
spake:


Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

It's crap, ugly and you Americans do it far better with face frames.

I agree, but there's a ****pot full of it around, and more is built
daily.

Like RAP, attorneys, and politicians, the sheer _quantity_ of
something doesn't make it RIGHT or likeable.


------
We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there.
- http://diversify.com Website Application Programming -

sez the dude who drinks warm beer.

British car owner joke. Do you know why the English drink warm beer?
They have lucas refrigerators.

On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...



Take a ride over to www.woodweb.com and use "32mm system" as a search
term on that site.

You'll find a lot of informed discussion about what you are interested
in.



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On 13 May 2005 07:55:45 -0700, "Charlie Self"
wrote:


Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

It's crap, ugly and you Americans do it far better with face frames.

I agree, but there's a ****pot full of it around, and more is built
daily.


I used a modified version of the 32mm system for a lot of my casework.

The carcases were either joined with offset tongue and groove joints
as described in Levine's book, Making Kitchen Cabinets", or were butt
joined and connected via biscuits, with pocket screws providing enough
grab so that clamps didn't need to be left on the box once it was
glued up.

It provides a quick and effective way to make the box and for built in
cabinetry it is just fine.

To me, the heart of the system is the hardware and the line boring
that goes along with it.

The better quality euro hinges allow for a good deal of adjustment and
flexibility in design.

The boxes, with their attendant overlay doors can be framed by molding
that stands proud of the edges of the box, and the use of pilasters
between the boxes, set to the front plane of the doors, or even a bit
proud will, in conjunction with a cornice and a bottom mold, make the
result indistinguishable from a face framed cabinet.

This gives a cabinetmaker a system he can use to create cabinets
quickly and for a reasonable price, with the ability to tart things up
according to the desires of the customer.

The full extension with one inch over travel drawer slides are an
absolute marvel and, if you follow the requirements of the line boring
system, are very easy to install accurately.

For a number of years I did the line boring with a template made from
pegboard that had holes drilled according to the system and this gave
me good accuracy and the ability to drill only the holes needed for
the particular job.

I liked it well enough to use it for my own kitchen and I don't think
that a casual observer could tell that the cabinets are not made in a
more traditional manner.

Certainly there are shoddy expressions of the form but that is not a
necessary result of using the system.

If I find a bit of extra energy this weekend, I'll post some
pictures.



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

I like the framless cabinetry much better... it's all a matter of taste!

I made my kitchen cabinet last year, it as relly easy.

What are you looking for?

Christian


"Marshall Boykin" wrote in message
...
seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

"Mike in Arkansas" wrote in message
ups.com...
sez the dude who drinks warm beer.

British car owner joke. Do you know why the English drink warm beer?
They have lucas refrigerators.

A tribute to the Duke of Darkness! That's a new one to me.

On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

Another option that is being offered by many cabinet manufacturers is
framed cabinets with full overlay doors. The look is very similar
(with the doors closed) but you get the superior strength of a framed
cabinet. Installation issues are pretty much the same as with a frame
less cabinet.

Mike O.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:


"Mike in Arkansas" wrote in message
ups.com...
sez the dude who drinks warm beer.

British car owner joke. Do you know why the English drink warm beer?
They have lucas refrigerators.

A tribute to the Duke of Darkness! That's a new one to me.

Please! Electrics by Lucas. Prince of Darkness!

On Fri, 13 May 2005 18:46:17 -0400, Tom Watson
wrote:

On 13 May 2005 07:55:45 -0700, "Charlie Self"
wrote:


Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

BIG SNIP

The full extension with one inch over travel drawer slides are an
absolute marvel and, if you follow the requirements of the line boring
system, are very easy to install accurately.

For a number of years I did the line boring with a template made from
pegboard that had holes drilled according to the system and this gave
me good accuracy and the ability to drill only the holes needed for
the particular job.

Please advise where I can find more detailed information on "line
boring system"
Thanks....

Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

John Hewitt, Malaga, Spain

mare wrote:
Mike wrote:

On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:57 GMT, "Marshall Boykin"
wrote:

seeking information related to european frameless cabinetry...

Another option that is being offered by many cabinet manufacturers
is
framed cabinets with full overlay doors. The look is very similar
(with the doors closed) but you get the superior strength of a
framed
cabinet. Installation issues are pretty much the same as with a
frame
less cabinet.

Framed cabinets are invented by men who don't cook, who never have to
reach into the corners to get stuff out of the cabinets. And you
often
have to remove things from the cabinet first to get to other things
that
are behind the frames.

Frameless cabinets are also so much easier to clean and to keep them
that way. Women prefer them. And some men do too.

Say what? I don't know what frame widths you have been dealing with,
but anything difficult to remove in a framed cabinet probably is a
stronog indicator that the cabinet is overloaded anyway, at least in
bulk.

If women prefer them, how come this is the first I've ever heard of it.
Hell, I'm making some new cabinets for my own kitchen, all framed, and
my wife is delighted, and has yet to tell me she'd prefer Eurocrap. If
she did, I'd build it--I must have a 32mm bit somewhere--even though I
don't like the stuff.

Easier cleaning? There, you may be right. Plain flat surfaces are
easier to clean than paneled doors, though some Euro styles now use
paneled doors, too. Ease of cleaning, though, seems to me to depend
more on the finish and its quality than on a particular design.

On Sat, 14 May 2005 11:47:11 -0400,
id.com (mare) wrote:

Framed cabinets are invented by men who don't cook, who never have to
reach into the corners to get stuff out of the cabinets. And you often
have to remove things from the cabinet first to get to other things that
are behind the frames.

If I had to guess, as I assume you did......
I would guess that framed cabinets were invented by some carpenter who
wanted a structurally sound product.
I would also guess that frame less cabinets were invented by some
designer who was more concerned with cost and/or his design idea than
with any structural issues related to cabinet making.

Frameless cabinets are also so much easier to clean and to keep them
that way.

This would be your only point with which I can agree.

Women prefer them. And some men do too.

Then why do I install about 40 kitchens a year with framed cabinets
compared to maybe one set of frame less a year? While we're guessing,
I would guess that in 90% of those kitchens, a woman picked the
cabinet style.

Mike O.

On 14 May 2005 12:51:41 -0700, "Charlie Self"
wrote:

mare wrote:

Framed cabinets are invented by men who don't cook, who never have to
reach into the corners to get stuff out of the cabinets. And you often
have to remove things from the cabinet first to get to other things that
are behind the frames.

Say what? I don't know what frame widths you have been dealing with,
but anything difficult to remove in a framed cabinet probably is a
stronog indicator that the cabinet is overloaded anyway, at least in
bulk.

Only if your definition of "overloaded" means "not leaving 4 inches of
wasted space".

Lee

On Sat, 14 May 2005 17:50:21 -0500, Mike wrote:

On Sat, 14 May 2005 11:47:11 -0400,
lid.com (mare) wrote:

Framed cabinets are invented by men who don't cook, who never have to
reach into the corners to get stuff out of the cabinets. And you often
have to remove things from the cabinet first to get to other things that
are behind the frames.

If I had to guess, as I assume you did......
I would guess that framed cabinets were invented by some carpenter who
wanted a structurally sound product.
I would also guess that frame less cabinets were invented by some
designer who was more concerned with cost and/or his design idea than
with any structural issues related to cabinet making.

Or by someone who realized that such cabinets are fastened together
and to walls and aren't being used to supplement the house framing.

Lee

"mare" lid.com wrote in
message

My kitchens don't have raised panel
doors, because I don't like it. And if the client wants that they have
to go elsewhere. If I make a kitchen it's a kitchen of 2005 and not one
like their grandmothers had. Call it a niche.

Sounds interesting. Have any photos?

On Sat, 14 May 2005 23:42:43 -0400,
id.com (mare) wrote:

If they don't know any better why won't they choose something new?
People are notorious conservative.

But I believe the comment you made was that women prefer frame less
cabinets. In my experience, that is simply not the case.

I've installed a couple of kitchens myself, all frameless, but my
clients are not the general audience. They come to me because I make
nifty kitchens with details that make them usable for cooks, and not the
same thing they can buy elsewhere. My kitchens don't have raised panel
doors, because I don't like it. And if the client wants that they have
to go elsewhere. If I make a kitchen it's a kitchen of 2005 and not one
like their grandmothers had. Call it a niche. I can't make 40 kitchens a
year though, cause I spent a little more that 1.5 weeks on a kitchen...

We build and install kitchens in new homes. My "niche" seems to be
whatever those customers want. Don't get me wrong, I would like to
build all frame less cabinets because it takes less time for us. The
bottom line is, very few of my customers want them.

BTW, with two carpenters and a helper working, building a kitchen in a
week is not much of a challenge.

Mike O.

On Sat, 14 May 2005 17:44:55 -0700, Lee DeRaud
wrote:

Or by someone who realized that such cabinets are fastened together
and to walls and aren't being used to supplement the house framing.

I will admit that I've been building mostly face framed cabinets for
20+ years and may be stuck in my old school ways. Having said that,
I'll never be convinced that the bottom shelf of a 30" frame less wall
cabinet, made of 3/4" melamine, is structurally adequate. IMHO you
can easily put enough weight on that shelf to cause visible sagging
over time.

Mike O.

On Sun, 15 May 2005 02:48:17 -0500, Mike wrote:

On Sat, 14 May 2005 17:44:55 -0700, Lee DeRaud
wrote:

Or by someone who realized that such cabinets are fastened together
and to walls and aren't being used to supplement the house framing.

I will admit that I've been building mostly face framed cabinets for
20+ years and may be stuck in my old school ways. Having said that,
I'll never be convinced that the bottom shelf of a 30" frame less wall
cabinet, made of 3/4" melamine, is structurally adequate. IMHO you
can easily put enough weight on that shelf to cause visible sagging
over time.

And that can't happen in a face-frame design? I *wish*.

I would be a lot more impressed with the claim of increased structural
integrity if I had ever seen a face-framed cabinet where the lower
rails were rabbetted to actually give that shelf some support.

If you insist on comparing hand-built custom face-frame cabinets with
stuff from Ikea, you might be able to win this argument. But that is a
question of quality of workmanship and materials, *not* the inherent
design.

Lee

On Sun, 15 May 2005 07:31:00 -0700, Lee DeRaud
wrote:

I would be a lot more impressed with the claim of increased structural
integrity if I had ever seen a face-framed cabinet where the lower
rails were rabbetted to actually give that shelf some support.

If you glue a piece of 1 1/2" x3/4" thick hardwood to the front of a
3/4" melamine shelf you actually believe it is no stronger than
without the hardwood?
Try this, find your nearest face framed cabinet and grab hold of the
top rail and do a chin up. Now, try that with a melamine frame less
cabinet.

I have no question that the framed cabinet is stronger and I doubt
many here would disagree with that. The question is, are they strong
enough? Obviously some people believe they are.

Mike O.

On Sun, 15 May 2005 14:33:15 -0500, Mike wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 07:31:00 -0700, Lee DeRaud
wrote:

I would be a lot more impressed with the claim of increased structural
integrity if I had ever seen a face-framed cabinet where the lower
rails were rabbetted to actually give that shelf some support.

If you glue a piece of 1 1/2" x3/4" thick hardwood to the front of a
3/4" melamine shelf you actually believe it is no stronger than
without the hardwood?

Glued and clamped up like I would making a wide panel? Sure. But how
well is the typical kitchen cabinet faceframe actually attached to the
box?

Try this, find your nearest face framed cabinet and grab hold of the
top rail and do a chin up. Now, try that with a melamine frame less
cabinet.

I'd guess either one will simply pull out of the wall: I weigh a lot
more that the typical set of dishes.

I have no question that the framed cabinet is stronger and I doubt
many here would disagree with that. The question is, are they strong
enough? Obviously some people believe they are.

And my point was that the frameless boxes are already more than strong
enough. If you like the framed style enough to tolerate the functional
compromises, go for it, just don't use irrelevant arguments to justify
your decision.

Lee