I would have to agree. I have stopped all subscriptions. I find that
they just repeat the same old stuff... Rarely anything of value.
I am more interested in furniture catalogs, to get ideas, and stuff.
How to build it, well the magazines rarely get into anything heady...
So it very basic. Finishing... They never really go deep. Tools... they
miss the mark so many times it's amazing. I think the advertising skews
them...

I will admit that sometimes I see a neat tip in the tips section, but
usually it's recycled over and over.

Most mags are just advertising.. rehashing... and sometimes bad
suggestions...


On 10/21/2011 2:22 PM, m II wrote:
Right here!

But **sigh** not my concern. I look at the magazine rack and see over 18
magazines at any given time and 'round 'ere, they run $10-$18 each. Not
even a chance when the main article is "How I built My Workbench for
under $500" . I have bought my share of mags in my day but when all I
can do it ick holes in somebody's woodworking guessing articles, it is
not worth the bucks or time.

You'll get there and looks like you have started.

My magazines are hand picked and not many have an article I want to pay
for, anymore.


-------------
"Bill" wrote in message ...
Maybe we should be cc'ing all our posts to
".

Someone must have the nerve, where's m II???

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:33:10 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:50:39 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/21/2011 9:15 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 10/19/2011 7:02 PM, Bill wrote:
My recent issue arrived with a separate page explaining that "this is a
special issue and that it will count as two of your subscriber issues,
and the duration of your subscription will be adjusted accordingly."

I got the same subscription. The difference is in how you use it

My MIL apparently thinks, because I have more "tools" than anyone else
she knows, that I'm a "handyman", that that is what I do, and therefore
the subscription to TFHM she blesses me with yearly, for the last ten
years just tickles me to death, which it indeed sometimes does.

Appropriately, the mag goes straight to the ****ter each month, where it
uniquely belongs. Much better than the Sears catalog when you find out
at the last minute that the pups have chewed up the TP, again ... just
wrinkle it real good and you're in business.

That extra twenty pages was a BIG plus in that regard.


WOW! You should submit those comments directly to the magazine. I bet
they would appreciate hearing from a reader that gets so much use out of
their publication...

Now I dare you to do so. ;~)

I don't believe that he utilizes the magazine for that particular use.
Glossy stock is a crappy crapper paper.

My research revealed this: The Oct issue had 57ish pages of ads in a
108 page mag. The controversial Nov issue had 47ish pages of ads in a
128 page mag. So, content pages totaled 47.2% in the Oct issue and
56.5% in the Nov issue. They want double the "price" for a measly
9.3% content increase (which they touted as double)? Feh!

Your calculations are correct, but meaningless since they just compare the
percentage of ad pages in two issues. You want to compare the total number of
content pages, regardless of total pages in an issue. Using your figures and
some cyphering I calculate the Oct issue had 51 pages of content and the Nov
issue had 81.

The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while the total pages
increased 18.5%. The over all content is actually much better, but is still not
the double you are being charged for.

IMO, you've already got the best advice, which is to cancel the subscription and
demand a cash refund and tell them why. I had a subscription to the magazine
sometime back in the 70's. I let it lapse after a year or two. I wish now I'd
spent the money back then on a Fine Woodworking subscription instead.

tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com wrote in
news
I would have to agree. I have stopped all subscriptions. I find that
they just repeat the same old stuff... Rarely anything of value.
I am more interested in furniture catalogs, to get ideas, and stuff.
How to build it, well the magazines rarely get into anything heady...
So it very basic. Finishing... They never really go deep. Tools... they
miss the mark so many times it's amazing. I think the advertising skews
them...

I will admit that sometimes I see a neat tip in the tips section, but
usually it's recycled over and over.

Most mags are just advertising.. rehashing... and sometimes bad
suggestions...

I dropped another magazine (not woodworking related) for the same reason.
Some blame the Internet for killing off print, but what's really killing
them is their coverage is as glossy as their pages. Remember when color
was expensive and photographs were rare? Ideas had to be communicated
with 26 letters, 4 or 5 main punctuation marks and that was it.

If magazines want to survive, they have to be willing to go in depth with
a subject. A reader should have a sense of "I can do that" instead of
"That's how they do it."

Puckdropper

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:45:25 -0500, Roy wrote:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:33:10 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:50:39 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/21/2011 9:15 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 10/19/2011 7:02 PM, Bill wrote:
My recent issue arrived with a separate page explaining that "this is a
special issue and that it will count as two of your subscriber issues,
and the duration of your subscription will be adjusted accordingly."

I got the same subscription. The difference is in how you use it

My MIL apparently thinks, because I have more "tools" than anyone else
she knows, that I'm a "handyman", that that is what I do, and therefore
the subscription to TFHM she blesses me with yearly, for the last ten
years just tickles me to death, which it indeed sometimes does.

Appropriately, the mag goes straight to the ****ter each month, where it
uniquely belongs. Much better than the Sears catalog when you find out
at the last minute that the pups have chewed up the TP, again ... just
wrinkle it real good and you're in business.

That extra twenty pages was a BIG plus in that regard.


WOW! You should submit those comments directly to the magazine. I bet
they would appreciate hearing from a reader that gets so much use out of
their publication...

Now I dare you to do so. ;~)

I don't believe that he utilizes the magazine for that particular use.
Glossy stock is a crappy crapper paper.

My research revealed this: The Oct issue had 57ish pages of ads in a
108 page mag. The controversial Nov issue had 47ish pages of ads in a
128 page mag. So, content pages totaled 47.2% in the Oct issue and
56.5% in the Nov issue. They want double the "price" for a measly
9.3% content increase (which they touted as double)? Feh!

Your calculations are correct, but meaningless since they just compare the
^^^^^^^^^^^

Let's substitute the word 'misleading' for meaningless, and then nominate me for
Pompous Ass Of The Week for that post. Thought I'd changed it, but it's pretty
obvious I didn't.

"There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and amateurs who think they know a
little bit about statistics" to paraphrase a wise man.



percentage of ad pages in two issues. You want to compare the total number of
content pages, regardless of total pages in an issue. Using your figures and
some cyphering I calculate the Oct issue had 51 pages of content and the Nov
issue had 81.

The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while the total pages
increased 18.5%. The over all content is actually much better, but is still not
the double you are being charged for.

IMO, you've already got the best advice, which is to cancel the subscription and
demand a cash refund and tell them why. I had a subscription to the magazine
sometime back in the 70's. I let it lapse after a year or two. I wish now I'd
spent the money back then on a Fine Woodworking subscription instead.

Exactly! Years ago the computer magazines started the "for full listing
of code see www.bahblahblah.com"instead of putting it in the magazine
and interfering with their advertising space. heaven forbid they would
have to increase their postage a cent by making the magazine fatter or
reducing advertising space. Those days nobody I knew was even on the
Internet. I used a "modem muff" at 300 baud to talk to University
"hunnybun" mainframe. They pushed it to the point of ruining their
publications and promoting the Internet to their own demise.

The magazines appear to have become only teasers to sell you more
information. Front end sales.


---------------
"Puckdropper" wrote in message
eb.com...
I dropped another magazine (not woodworking related) for the same
reason.
Some blame the Internet for killing off print, but what's really
killing
them is their coverage is as glossy as their pages. Remember when color
was expensive and photographs were rare? Ideas had to be communicated
with 26 letters, 4 or 5 main punctuation marks and that was it.
If magazines want to survive, they have to be willing to go in depth
with
a subject. A reader should have a sense of "I can do that" instead of
"That's how they do it."


Puckdropper
tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com wrote in
news
I would have to agree. I have stopped all subscriptions. I find that
they just repeat the same old stuff... Rarely anything of value.
I am more interested in furniture catalogs, to get ideas, and stuff.
How to build it, well the magazines rarely get into anything heady...
So it very basic. Finishing... They never really go deep. Tools...
they
miss the mark so many times it's amazing. I think the advertising
skews
them...

I will admit that sometimes I see a neat tip in the tips section, but
usually it's recycled over and over.

Most mags are just advertising.. rehashing... and sometimes bad
suggestions...

On 2011-10-19 21:03:30 -0400, Bill said:

Mike Marlow wrote:

Consider yourself lucky you got anything out of them. Your letter to them
made no sense at all.


Well, technically it made me about 100 sense I hardly care about. I
wonder how much it improves their bottom line for the year...I'm hoping
in the end, not much. If they can't treat their customers with respect
and stay in business, they won't have one.

My guess* is that they're already foundering. I'm willing to bet you
won't see all of the [10] remaining issues in your sub.

*based on nearly 40 years' experience in advertising, publishing, and
printing...

On 2011-10-21 22:34:23 -0400, "m II" said:

Exactly! Years ago the computer magazines started the "for full listing
of code see www.bahblahblah.com"instead of putting it in the magazine
and interfering with their advertising space. heaven forbid they would
have to increase their postage a cent by making the magazine fatter or
reducing advertising space. Those days nobody I knew was even on the
Internet. I used a "modem muff" at 300 baud to talk to University
"hunnybun" mainframe. They pushed it to the point of ruining their
publications and promoting the Internet to their own demise.

The magazines appear to have become only teasers to sell you more
information. Front end sales.

Close, but you haven't managed to light your cigar.

In general, print publishing has two revenue streams: circulation and
advertising. In my newspaper days, the rule of thumb was that 40% of
the revenue came from subscribers/newsstand. That paid for your
production costs. Advertising paid everything else, including salaries
and profit for the owners/investors.

Percentages may have flucuated since then, but as example, what is the
impact of a cost increase in paper? Yes, production costs have risen.
So, do you A.) raise the price of the paper, or B.) cut the space
devoted to news, reallocating that space to ads as your "revenue
enhancer"?

Before you choose one or the other, consider the impact of each choice.
Cutting the "news hole" makes the paper less vital as a news source,
and will probably result in a drop in subscribers. Raising the price
will probably result in a number of subscribers deciding the damn
thing's too expensive, even if the amount of news space remains the
same.

But selling more ads will bring more revenue... until the circulation
decline convinces the advertisers they're no longer reaching the number
of readers that justifies the current ad rates. Hence, the publisher
will trumpet lower rates -- making them "a better advertsing value than
ever!"

Back in the day, there wasn't choice C.) rehance the reader's value
with your on-line presence... but there was the good old editorial
calendar. "Let's see," the publisher tells the sales manager, "January,
we can do finishes; February will be our "annual" tool issue; March
will feature projects the reader can build to take advanage of the
April showers... Now get your bos out there and sell some ads, because
we're going to give those advertisers' products some excellent
editorial support!"

We do now have choice C, but a certain fine woodworking magazine has
chosen to SELL its on-line presence to its readers. Now, that's ****ed
off a certain percentage of readers who "know" on-line should be an
enhancement, rather than a revenue stream. Conversely, it's convinced
some readers they no longer need the printed offering.

Well, this does keep the bean counters in jobs -- for now, anyway --
determining which option or combination of options will result in the
greatest revenue, or at least in the least damage to current revenue
models.

The trick remians the same: offer a product that will draw readers (and
advertisers, most likely), find a way to pay for it, and keep the
plates spinning on those spindly little sticks.

BTW, with Chris Schwartz having left Popular Woodworking, that plate's
looking a little wobbly. I hope Schwartz' new publishing venture is
successful, because it looks like his books will be high quality
informational sources tergeting (probably) a small readership. I
imagine his definition of success will likely be quite different from
PW's -- the ability publish a "sturdy" product, to keep the family fed
and the lights on as opposed to filling the shareholders' pockets.

On 2011-10-21 21:45:25 -0400, Roy said:

Your calculations are correct, but meaningless since they just compare the
percentage of ad pages in two issues. You want to compare the total number of
content pages, regardless of total pages in an issue. Using your figures and
some cyphering I calculate the Oct issue had 51 pages of content and the Nov
issue had 81.
The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while the total pages
increased 18.5%. The over all content is actually much better, but is
still not
the double you are being charged for.

See my response to Bill upthread. Having run the numbers, you've merely
solidified my gut notion: this magazine is circling the drain.

I'm not celebrating this because I'm sure someone values this
publication. But they'd best reinvent themselves and their business
model damn fast.

Maybe you can explain why the magazine subscriptions sell for less than
quarter the newsstand price when they have to add shipping (postage
usually) and additional packaging (wrapper)

Do advertisers think that newsstand copies are not read by consumers,
trashed, and only subscriptions count?


---------

"Steve" wrote in message
ng.com...
Close, but you haven't managed to light your cigar.

In general, print publishing has two revenue streams: circulation and
advertising. In my newspaper days, the rule of thumb was that 40% of
the revenue came from subscribers/newsstand. That paid for your
production costs. Advertising paid everything else, including salaries
and profit for the owners/investors.

Percentages may have flucuated since then, but as example, what is the
impact of a cost increase in paper? Yes, production costs have risen.
So, do you A.) raise the price of the paper, or B.) cut the space
devoted to news, reallocating that space to ads as your "revenue
enhancer"?

Before you choose one or the other, consider the impact of each choice.
Cutting the "news hole" makes the paper less vital as a news source,
and will probably result in a drop in subscribers. Raising the price
will probably result in a number of subscribers deciding the damn
thing's too expensive, even if the amount of news space remains the
same.

But selling more ads will bring more revenue... until the circulation
decline convinces the advertisers they're no longer reaching the number
of readers that justifies the current ad rates. Hence, the publisher
will trumpet lower rates -- making them "a better advertsing value than
ever!"

Back in the day, there wasn't choice C.) rehance the reader's value
with your on-line presence... but there was the good old editorial
calendar. "Let's see," the publisher tells the sales manager, "January,
we can do finishes; February will be our "annual" tool issue; March
will feature projects the reader can build to take advanage of the
April showers... Now get your bos out there and sell some ads, because
we're going to give those advertisers' products some excellent
editorial support!"

We do now have choice C, but a certain fine woodworking magazine has
chosen to SELL its on-line presence to its readers. Now, that's ****ed
off a certain percentage of readers who "know" on-line should be an
enhancement, rather than a revenue stream. Conversely, it's convinced
some readers they no longer need the printed offering.

Well, this does keep the bean counters in jobs -- for now, anyway --
determining which option or combination of options will result in the
greatest revenue, or at least in the least damage to current revenue
models.

The trick remians the same: offer a product that will draw readers (and
advertisers, most likely), find a way to pay for it, and keep the
plates spinning on those spindly little sticks.

BTW, with Chris Schwartz having left Popular Woodworking, that plate's
looking a little wobbly. I hope Schwartz' new publishing venture is
successful, because it looks like his books will be high quality
informational sources tergeting (probably) a small readership. I
imagine his definition of success will likely be quite different from
PW's -- the ability publish a "sturdy" product, to keep the family fed
and the lights on as opposed to filling the shareholders' pockets.

On 22 Oct 2011 01:50:41 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com wrote in
news
I would have to agree. I have stopped all subscriptions. I find that
they just repeat the same old stuff... Rarely anything of value.
I am more interested in furniture catalogs, to get ideas, and stuff.
How to build it, well the magazines rarely get into anything heady...
So it very basic. Finishing... They never really go deep. Tools... they
miss the mark so many times it's amazing. I think the advertising skews
them...

I will admit that sometimes I see a neat tip in the tips section, but
usually it's recycled over and over.

Most mags are just advertising.. rehashing... and sometimes bad
suggestions...

I dropped another magazine (not woodworking related) for the same reason.
Some blame the Internet for killing off print, but what's really killing
them is their coverage is as glossy as their pages. Remember when color
was expensive and photographs were rare? Ideas had to be communicated
with 26 letters, 4 or 5 main punctuation marks and that was it.

If magazines want to survive, they have to be willing to go in depth with
a subject. A reader should have a sense of "I can do that" instead of
"That's how they do it."

Yeah, that's why I stopped reading several magazines, too. That and
that they either doubled their price for the glossed-over crap or
halved their annual issues.

I still take PopWood and TFH because they're cheap and of occasional
interest. The ads are half the reason I continue them, too. I like to
keep up with the technology of jigs and tools, and have utilized the
concepts they bring to make my own setups or alter the way I do
things. I get 2 or 3 years of mags for $10 total on eBay.

I get several trade mags free of charge, and they're mostly worth the
price. sigh I laugh at the list price JLC (Journal of Light
Construction) wants for their scripts, but take it for a year when it
goes on 1/4 price sale. It's pretty good, as are FWW and FHB, but
they're not worth full price to me. I got the JLC mag collection on
CD for 1/4 the price FWW or FHB wants for theirs, and it feels more
germane to me than FWWs. I don't do a lot of (hah, ANY!) period
furniture with 5,000 pieces of minute adornments.

(YMMV, Leon.)

--
....in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:45:25 -0500, Roy
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:33:10 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:50:39 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/21/2011 9:15 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 10/19/2011 7:02 PM, Bill wrote:
My recent issue arrived with a separate page explaining that "this is a
special issue and that it will count as two of your subscriber issues,
and the duration of your subscription will be adjusted accordingly."

I got the same subscription. The difference is in how you use it

My MIL apparently thinks, because I have more "tools" than anyone else
she knows, that I'm a "handyman", that that is what I do, and therefore
the subscription to TFHM she blesses me with yearly, for the last ten
years just tickles me to death, which it indeed sometimes does.

Appropriately, the mag goes straight to the ****ter each month, where it
uniquely belongs. Much better than the Sears catalog when you find out
at the last minute that the pups have chewed up the TP, again ... just
wrinkle it real good and you're in business.

That extra twenty pages was a BIG plus in that regard.


WOW! You should submit those comments directly to the magazine. I bet
they would appreciate hearing from a reader that gets so much use out of
their publication...

Now I dare you to do so. ;~)

I don't believe that he utilizes the magazine for that particular use.
Glossy stock is a crappy crapper paper.

My research revealed this: The Oct issue had 57ish pages of ads in a
108 page mag. The controversial Nov issue had 47ish pages of ads in a
128 page mag. So, content pages totaled 47.2% in the Oct issue and
56.5% in the Nov issue. They want double the "price" for a measly
9.3% content increase (which they touted as double)? Feh!

Your calculations are correct, but meaningless since they just compare the
percentage of ad pages in two issues.

No I didn't. That was just one calc. Are you reading impaired, Roy?


You want to compare the total number of
content pages, regardless of total pages in an issue.

I did, and came up with percentages, which is what I was after.


Using your figures and
some cyphering I calculate the Oct issue had 51 pages of content and the Nov
issue had 81.

Huh? 47.2% of 108 pages is not 51, and 56.5% of 128 is not 81 in
anyone's book. What -are- you smoking, sir?


The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while the total pages
increased 18.5%. The over all content is actually much better, but is still not
the double you are being charged for.

Back away from the hookah and keep your hands in sight, sir.


IMO, you've already got the best advice, which is to cancel the subscription and
demand a cash refund and tell them why. I had a subscription to the magazine
sometime back in the 70's. I let it lapse after a year or two. I wish now I'd
spent the money back then on a Fine Woodworking subscription instead.

I like the mag. Why would I cancel it? They also offered to reverse
the charge for the mag to anyone who disagreed, and I'll be taking
them up on the offer and discussing it with them.


--
....in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:33:21 -0500, Roy
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:45:25 -0500, Roy wrote:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:33:10 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:50:39 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 10/21/2011 9:15 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 10/19/2011 7:02 PM, Bill wrote:
My recent issue arrived with a separate page explaining that "this is a
special issue and that it will count as two of your subscriber issues,
and the duration of your subscription will be adjusted accordingly."

I got the same subscription. The difference is in how you use it

My MIL apparently thinks, because I have more "tools" than anyone else
she knows, that I'm a "handyman", that that is what I do, and therefore
the subscription to TFHM she blesses me with yearly, for the last ten
years just tickles me to death, which it indeed sometimes does.

Appropriately, the mag goes straight to the ****ter each month, where it
uniquely belongs. Much better than the Sears catalog when you find out
at the last minute that the pups have chewed up the TP, again ... just
wrinkle it real good and you're in business.

That extra twenty pages was a BIG plus in that regard.


WOW! You should submit those comments directly to the magazine. I bet
they would appreciate hearing from a reader that gets so much use out of
their publication...

Now I dare you to do so. ;~)

I don't believe that he utilizes the magazine for that particular use.
Glossy stock is a crappy crapper paper.

My research revealed this: The Oct issue had 57ish pages of ads in a
108 page mag. The controversial Nov issue had 47ish pages of ads in a
128 page mag. So, content pages totaled 47.2% in the Oct issue and
56.5% in the Nov issue. They want double the "price" for a measly
9.3% content increase (which they touted as double)? Feh!

Your calculations are correct, but meaningless since they just compare the
^^^^^^^^^^^

Let's substitute the word 'misleading' for meaningless, and then nominate me for
Pompous Ass Of The Week for that post. Thought I'd changed it, but it's pretty
obvious I didn't.

Your nomination is approved. I'm glad that's settled.


"There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and amateurs who think they know a
little bit about statistics" to paraphrase a wise man.

Hayseuss Crisco! Your nomination is again approved.

Ta!

--
....in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 06:00:06 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



You want to compare the total number of
content pages, regardless of total pages in an issue.

I did, and came up with percentages, which is what I was after.


Using your figures and
some cyphering I calculate the Oct issue had 51 pages of content and the Nov
issue had 81.

Huh? 47.2% of 108 pages is not 51, and 56.5% of 128 is not 81 in
anyone's book. What -are- you smoking, sir?


108 minus 57ish leaves 51 pages of content, according to your original post, for
October. 128 minus 47ish leaves 81 pages of content for November. Therefor the
total content increase is 81/51 = 1.59(ish), multiply by 100 to get percent and
it becomes 159%, a 59% increase over the content pages from October.




The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while the total pages
increased 18.5%. The over all content is actually much better, but is still not
the double you are being charged for.

Back away from the hookah and keep your hands in sight, sir.

I think you're suffering from that metric system all y'all use.

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:45:31 -0500, Roy
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 06:00:06 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



You want to compare the total number of
content pages, regardless of total pages in an issue.

I did, and came up with percentages, which is what I was after.


Using your figures and
some cyphering I calculate the Oct issue had 51 pages of content and the Nov
issue had 81.

Huh? 47.2% of 108 pages is not 51, and 56.5% of 128 is not 81 in
anyone's book. What -are- you smoking, sir?


108 minus 57ish leaves 51 pages of content, according to your original post, for
October. 128 minus 47ish leaves 81 pages of content for November. Therefor the
total content increase is 81/51 = 1.59(ish), multiply by 100 to get percent and
it becomes 159%, a 59% increase over the content pages from October.

OK, amateur statistician mode acknowledged. I did it backwards.


The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while the total pages
increased 18.5%. The over all content is actually much better, but is still not
the double you are being charged for.

Back away from the hookah and keep your hands in sight, sir.

I think you're suffering from that metric system all y'all use.

LJ--carefully inching away...

--
....in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:07:42 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:45:31 -0500, Roy
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 06:00:06 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



You want to compare the total number of
content pages, regardless of total pages in an issue.

I did, and came up with percentages, which is what I was after.


Using your figures and
some cyphering I calculate the Oct issue had 51 pages of content and the Nov
issue had 81.

Huh? 47.2% of 108 pages is not 51, and 56.5% of 128 is not 81 in
anyone's book. What -are- you smoking, sir?


108 minus 57ish leaves 51 pages of content, according to your original post, for
October. 128 minus 47ish leaves 81 pages of content for November. Therefor the
total content increase is 81/51 = 1.59(ish), multiply by 100 to get percent and
it becomes 159%, a 59% increase over the content pages from October.

OK, amateur statistician mode acknowledged. I did it backwards.

Well, you can now be mathematically ****ed they were trying to pull a fast one.


The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while the total pages
increased 18.5%. The over all content is actually much better, but is still not
the double you are being charged for.

Back away from the hookah and keep your hands in sight, sir.

I think you're suffering from that metric system all y'all use.

LJ--carefully inching away...

Now doesn't that sound more natural than carefully millimetering away??

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:17:34 -0500, Roy
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:07:42 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

OK, amateur statistician mode acknowledged. I did it backwards.

Well, you can now be mathematically ****ed they were trying to pull a fast one.

Hey, I already KNEW that.


The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while the total pages
increased 18.5%. The over all content is actually much better, but is still not
the double you are being charged for.

Back away from the hookah and keep your hands in sight, sir.

I think you're suffering from that metric system all y'all use.

LJ--carefully inching away...

Now doesn't that sound more natural than carefully millimetering away??

Only because I grew up working in inches. I find both systems
workable.

--
....in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

On Oct 22, 10:06*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:17:34 -0500, Roy
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:07:42 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

OK, amateur statistician mode acknowledged. I did it backwards.

Well, you can now be mathematically ****ed they were trying to pull a fast one.

Hey, I already KNEW that.

The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while the total pages
increased 18.5%. *The over all content is actually much better, but is still not
the double you are being charged for.

Back away from the hookah and keep your hands in sight, sir.

I think you're suffering from that metric system all y'all use. *

LJ--carefully inching away...

Now doesn't that sound more natural than carefully millimetering away??

Only because I grew up working in inches. I find both systems
workable.

--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- John Ruskin

Punchline: "*singing* "Pardon me Roy. is that the cat that chewed your
new shoes?"
Weave your own joke around it....

On 2011-10-22 00:27:35 -0400, "m II" said:

Maybe you can explain why the magazine subscriptions sell for less than
quarter the newsstand price when they have to add shipping (postage
usually) and additional packaging (wrapper)

Do advertisers think that newsstand copies are not read by consumers,
trashed, and only subscriptions count?

Aggregate numbers. "We have this many readers." (holds up both hands...
with all fingers extended)

Postage is pretty cheap, and newsstands are allowed returns. Next time
you see one, read the publisher's statement, required (IIRC, by postal
regs) to run annually. You will find both annual averages as well as
stats for the issue nearest the date of the statement. You'll also find
how many copies were "free" distribution.

Bottom line: press run /= readership

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:52:42 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

Punchline: "*singing* "Pardon me Roy. is that the cat that chewed your
new shoes?"
Weave your own joke around it....

I don't understand. I've never even been -in- Tennessee.

--
....in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:52:42 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

Punchline: "*singing* "Pardon me Roy. is that the cat that chewed your
new shoes?"
Weave your own joke around it....

I don't understand. I've never even been -in- Tennessee.

There must be a catch, I wouldn't pay to watch a tennissee match.



--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

Do they light-up when you strike them, the same as other American
matches, Eddie?


Sorry... Bill.
---------

"Bill" wrote in message ...
There must be a catch, I wouldn't pay to watch a tennissee match.

m II wrote:
Do they light-up when you strike them, the same as other American
matches, Eddie?


Sorry... Bill.

I thought it sounded like something Groucho Marx might say/sing.
If you say the secret word I'll send down the duck...lol.


---------

"Bill" wrote in message ...
There must be a catch, I wouldn't pay to watch a tennissee match.

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 16:42:29 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:52:42 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

Punchline: "*singing* "Pardon me Roy. is that the cat that chewed your
new shoes?"
Weave your own joke around it....

I don't understand. I've never even been -in- Tennessee.

There must be a catch, I wouldn't pay to watch a tennissee match.


Made my day to watch the Texans kick the Tennessee Traitors ass today.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:02:00 -0400, Bill
wrote:

My recent issue arrived with a separate page explaining that "this is a
special issue and that it will count as two of your subscriber issues,
and the duration of your subscription will be adjusted accordingly."


Here is my email reply:

-------------------------
Dear The Family Handyman,

I had to laugh when I read the insert that you provided my my magazine:
" .. We are treating it as a special issue that will count towards
two of your subscriber issuses."
except for the fact that you're wasting my time.

My reason for asking you to treat it only as ONE issue for me is:
*** What the hell do you think this is??? We had a contract!!! ***

I am very unsatisfied which your magazines conduct in this matter. I
find it VERY UNPROFESSIONAL and I hope that it does not happen again.
-------------------------

If you're a subscriber, take notice and don't let them try to pull that
crap. FWIW, regular issue ~100 pages, this one was 130 and seems to
include more advertising than usual.

September's issue was 108 pages, the "big new" October was 128 pages.
I haven't yet tallied up the content v. ad space yet and written to
them, but I think I'll ream them like I did the idiot at Netflix. Who
ARE these people?


Corporate America.
--
"I'm the man who broke the bank at Monte Carlo ..."

"Steve" wrote in message
ng.com...
On 2011-10-21 22:34:23 -0400, "m II" said:

Snip of a most interesting take on publishing, for which thank
you. ----------------


BTW, with Chris Schwartz having left Popular Woodworking, that plate's
looking a little wobbly. I hope Schwartz' new publishing venture is
successful, because it looks like his books will be high quality
informational sources tergeting (probably) a small readership. I imagine
his definition of success will likely be quite different from PW's -- the
ability publish a "sturdy" product, to keep the family fed and the lights
on as opposed to filling the shareholders' pockets.


Chris Schwartz is now offering two of his books in electronic format. The
Anarchist's Toolchest is now available in an epub version and the Moxxon
book in PDF. At $16.00 the Anarchist is a steal. Like you, I wondered about
PW's future when he announced he was leaving. Who knew he chafed so much as
a Corporate Lackey? Would be nice to see him succeed.

--
"I'm the man who broke the bank at Monte Carlo ..."

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Oct 22, 10:06 pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:17:34 -0500, Roy
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:07:42 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

OK, amateur statistician mode acknowledged. I did it backwards.

Well, you can now be mathematically ****ed they were trying to pull a
fast one.

Hey, I already KNEW that.

The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while the
total pages
increased 18.5%. The over all content is actually much better, but is
still not
the double you are being charged for.

Back away from the hookah and keep your hands in sight, sir.

I think you're suffering from that metric system all y'all use.

LJ--carefully inching away...

Now doesn't that sound more natural than carefully millimetering away??

Only because I grew up working in inches. I find both systems
workable.

--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

Punchline: "*singing* "Pardon me Roy. is that the cat that chewed your
new shoes?"
Weave your own joke around it....
----------------------------------------------

That one was almost as bad as "Carp to Carp Walleting".

--
"I'm the man who broke the bank at Monte Carlo ..."

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:52:42 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

Punchline: "*singing* "Pardon me Roy. is that the cat that chewed your
new shoes?"
Weave your own joke around it....

I don't understand. I've never even been -in- Tennessee.


"long distance information ..."

"Roy" wrote:

Made my day to watch the Texans kick the Tennessee Traitors ass
today.
-------------------------------------
The list of pro sports "traitors" is quite long.

Starting with Baseball:

In no particular order:

The Braves have moved from Boston to Milwaukee to Atlanta.

The Athletics have moved from Philadelphia to Oakland with a stop some
where else I can't remember.

The St Louis Browns became the Baltimore Orioles.

The Washington Senators became the Texas Rangers with a stop some
where else I can't remember.

Another Washington team became the Seattle Mariners with a stop some
where else I can't remember.

Can't remember if the Expos were an expansion team or not but now they
are in Washington DC.

Switching to football:

The Rams started in Cleveland, then Los Angeles and now St Louis.

The Cardinals started in Chicago, then St Louis and now Phoenix.

The Colts started in Baltimore then snuck out of town in the middle of
the night to Indianapolis.

The Browns started in Cleveland then snuck out of town in the middle
of the night to Baltimore and became the Ravens thanks to Art Model.

There are more but you get the idea.

Don't follow basketball but there have been more moves than teams.

Somehow the Lakers and Los Angeles just don't seem to fit.

Lew

On 10/24/2011 2:46 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Roy" wrote:

Made my day to watch the Texans kick the Tennessee Traitors ass
today.
-------------------------------------
The list of pro sports "traitors" is quite long.

Starting with Baseball:

In no particular order:

The Braves have moved from Boston to Milwaukee to Atlanta.

The Athletics have moved from Philadelphia to Oakland with a stop some
where else I can't remember.

The St Louis Browns became the Baltimore Orioles.

The Washington Senators became the Texas Rangers with a stop some
where else I can't remember.

Another Washington team became the Seattle Mariners with a stop some
where else I can't remember.

Can't remember if the Expos were an expansion team or not but now they
are in Washington DC.

Switching to football:

The Rams started in Cleveland, then Los Angeles and now St Louis.

The Cardinals started in Chicago, then St Louis and now Phoenix.

The Colts started in Baltimore then snuck out of town in the middle of
the night to Indianapolis.

The Browns started in Cleveland then snuck out of town in the middle
of the night to Baltimore and became the Ravens thanks to Art Model.

There are more but you get the idea.

Don't follow basketball but there have been more moves than teams.

Somehow the Lakers and Los Angeles just don't seem to fit.

Lew



Lew you left out Mexico moved to the USA.

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:08:04 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message
ing.com...
On 2011-10-21 22:34:23 -0400, "m II" said:

Snip of a most interesting take on publishing, for which thank
you. ----------------


BTW, with Chris Schwartz having left Popular Woodworking, that plate's
looking a little wobbly. I hope Schwartz' new publishing venture is
successful, because it looks like his books will be high quality
informational sources tergeting (probably) a small readership. I imagine
his definition of success will likely be quite different from PW's -- the
ability publish a "sturdy" product, to keep the family fed and the lights
on as opposed to filling the shareholders' pockets.


Chris Schwartz is now offering two of his books in electronic format. The
Anarchist's Toolchest

I'll bet he made the FBI and DHS Watchlists due to that title.


is now available in an epub version and the Moxxon
book in PDF. At $16.00 the Anarchist is a steal. Like you, I wondered about
PW's future when he announced he was leaving. Who knew he chafed so much as
a Corporate Lackey? Would be nice to see him succeed.

Yes, I wish him luck, too.

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

Lobby Dosser wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Oct 22, 10:06 pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:17:34 -0500, Roy
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:07:42 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

OK, amateur statistician mode acknowledged. I did it backwards.

Well, you can now be mathematically ****ed they were trying to pull a
fast one.

Hey, I already KNEW that.

The content pages in Nov are actually 59% more than Oct, while
the total pages
increased 18.5%. The over all content is actually much better,
but is still not
the double you are being charged for.

Back away from the hookah and keep your hands in sight, sir.

I think you're suffering from that metric system all y'all use.

LJ--carefully inching away...

Now doesn't that sound more natural than carefully millimetering away??

Only because I grew up working in inches. I find both systems
workable.

--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

Punchline: "*singing* "Pardon me Roy. is that the cat that chewed your
new shoes?"
Weave your own joke around it....
----------------------------------------------

That one was almost as bad as "Carp to Carp Walleting".


That's a good one. I honestly didn't get it the first time I read it.
It wasn't until I read it a few hours later, that I could groan... : )

On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:02:00 -0400, Bill
wrote:

My recent issue arrived with a separate page explaining that "this is a
special issue and that it will count as two of your subscriber issues,
and the duration of your subscription will be adjusted accordingly."


They hired an MBA who showed them how to save money and bull**** you
about what great deal your getting. What they were attempting to do
is, tell you to go hell and make you look forward to the trip.

I watched an ad on TV where a guy claimed to have saved an olive
producer 86,000$ by leaving one olive out of the jar. In no nonsense
terms, he shorted the customer. He was so proud of himself, he was
advertising his service.

In a Ford boardroom, an MBA very seriously asked why a wheel needed
five bolts to hold a wheel on, when one would do. His remarks were
met with incredulous awe. Apparently, he demonstrated the acme of
know nothing ignorance and stupidity to the wrong crowd.

Be aware that these weasels are into everything and are part of the
corporate culture.

You could call a lawyer to find out if this breach of contract and if
so, bring a class action suit forward. If your not into that, then
spread the word to all media sources at your disposal.

P






--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ---

Ahhh class action lawsuits. Another useless thing.
The only people that get repaid are the attorneys. They get paid very
richly everyone else gets dirt.

I had an RCA TV that everyone had the same problem with. Cost me $150 to
repair it each time. All because it was missing a Heat Sink. The class
action lawsuit allowed me to reclaim a coupon for $50 off my next
purchase. So it cost me $150 twice, but I get $50 off my next
purchase??? Needless to say... no more RCA products..

I have a few of those stories. My car... The dealer pulled a fast one
and was caught. The class action suit gets me $20 off licensing my next car.
The ripoff was for $100.
I didn't get the money back, and $20 doesn't cover the loss.

Yep, the low life attorneys make out, and we .... we get the shaft.


On 10/25/2011 1:31 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:02:00 -0400,
wrote:

My recent issue arrived with a separate page explaining that "this is a
special issue and that it will count as two of your subscriber issues,
and the duration of your subscription will be adjusted accordingly."


They hired an MBA who showed them how to save money and bull**** you
about what great deal your getting. What they were attempting to do
is, tell you to go hell and make you look forward to the trip.

I watched an ad on TV where a guy claimed to have saved an olive
producer 86,000$ by leaving one olive out of the jar. In no nonsense
terms, he shorted the customer. He was so proud of himself, he was
advertising his service.

In a Ford boardroom, an MBA very seriously asked why a wheel needed
five bolts to hold a wheel on, when one would do. His remarks were
met with incredulous awe. Apparently, he demonstrated the acme of
know nothing ignorance and stupidity to the wrong crowd.

Be aware that these weasels are into everything and are part of the
corporate culture.

You could call a lawyer to find out if this breach of contract and if
so, bring a class action suit forward. If your not into that, then
spread the word to all media sources at your disposal.

P






--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ---

wrote:

Be aware that these weasels are into everything and are part of the
corporate culture.

You could call a lawyer to find out if this breach of contract and if
so, bring a class action suit forward. If your not into that, then
spread the word to all media sources at your disposal.

P


I figured if I told 2 friends, and each of them told 2 friends, etc.,
then the person/people who made the decision would be destined to regret
it. I'm not into creating litigation, but feel free.

Bill wrote:
wrote:

Be aware that these weasels are into everything and are part of the
corporate culture.

You could call a lawyer to find out if this breach of contract and if
so, bring a class action suit forward. If your not into that, then
spread the word to all media sources at your disposal.

P


I figured if I told 2 friends, and each of them told 2 friends, etc.,
then the person/people who made the decision would be destined to regret
it. I'm not into creating litigation, but feel free.


We're up to at least 19. Here are more written opinions:

http://voiceacomplaint.com/2011/10/f...magazine-scam/

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:08:04 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message
ting.com...
On 2011-10-21 22:34:23 -0400, "m II" said:

Snip of a most interesting take on publishing, for which thank
you. ----------------


BTW, with Chris Schwartz having left Popular Woodworking, that plate's
looking a little wobbly. I hope Schwartz' new publishing venture is
successful, because it looks like his books will be high quality
informational sources tergeting (probably) a small readership. I imagine
his definition of success will likely be quite different from PW's --
the
ability publish a "sturdy" product, to keep the family fed and the
lights
on as opposed to filling the shareholders' pockets.


Chris Schwartz is now offering two of his books in electronic format. The
Anarchist's Toolchest

I'll bet he made the FBI and DHS Watchlists due to that title.


HA! Hadn't thought about that. Hey, they probably bought a few copies!

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:02:00 -0400, Bill
wrote:

My recent issue arrived with a separate page explaining that "this is a
special issue and that it will count as two of your subscriber issues,
and the duration of your subscription will be adjusted accordingly."


They hired an MBA who showed them how to save money and bull**** you
about what great deal your getting. What they were attempting to do
is, tell you to go hell and make you look forward to the trip.

I watched an ad on TV where a guy claimed to have saved an olive
producer 86,000$ by leaving one olive out of the jar. In no nonsense
terms, he shorted the customer. He was so proud of himself, he was
advertising his service.

In a Ford boardroom, an MBA very seriously asked why a wheel needed
five bolts to hold a wheel on, when one would do. His remarks were
met with incredulous awe. Apparently, he demonstrated the acme of
know nothing ignorance and stupidity to the wrong crowd.

One WILL do the job. Problem being it might be more expensive than five.

Lobby Dosser wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:02:00 -0400, Bill
wrote:

My recent issue arrived with a separate page explaining that "this is a
special issue and that it will count as two of your subscriber issues,
and the duration of your subscription will be adjusted accordingly."


They hired an MBA who showed them how to save money and bull**** you
about what great deal your getting. What they were attempting to do
is, tell you to go hell and make you look forward to the trip.

I watched an ad on TV where a guy claimed to have saved an olive
producer 86,000$ by leaving one olive out of the jar. In no nonsense
terms, he shorted the customer. He was so proud of himself, he was
advertising his service.

In a Ford boardroom, an MBA very seriously asked why a wheel needed
five bolts to hold a wheel on, when one would do. His remarks were
met with incredulous awe. Apparently, he demonstrated the acme of
know nothing ignorance and stupidity to the wrong crowd.

One WILL do the job. Problem being it might be more expensive than five.

If it was a good solution, it seems like the Indy-500 racers would have
went with it, because it sounds faster!

On 2011-10-25 19:23:31 -0400, Bill said:

I figured if I told 2 friends, and each of them told 2 friends, etc.,

The old saw is that a satisfied customer tells three others; a
dissatisfied customer tells ten. Don't know of research to back this
up, but it does feel right. doesn't it?

Steve wrote:
On 2011-10-25 19:23:31 -0400, Bill said:

I figured if I told 2 friends, and each of them told 2 friends, etc.,

The old saw is that a satisfied customer tells three others; a
dissatisfied customer tells ten. Don't know of research to back this up,
but it does feel right. doesn't it?


Yeah, almost makes me feel bad about the folks that have to work
"customer care". THEY may end up with the loudest voices of all.