I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
well?

Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
to 30" or so.

I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
the old fashioned laminate tops.

Why not?

I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
style.

Why not?

I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
style.

Lots of issues.

Countertop typically means kitchen. Kitchen usually means moisture.
Moisture means wood movement. Movement means cupping at least. So very
likely the counter top would buckle up or down. Also likely break the
edge glued joints eventually. Also need to think abput what to do if
you have a corner, how do you let the counter top expand properly
withouth breaking itself apart. A 30 inch wide maple panel will change
with by 0.42 inches with a 4% change in moisture, about the average
range of change over a year in a house in general, a wet counter top
likely a greater percentage.

Flat panels as countertops are just way too much trouble.

Now you mention using particle board to keep it flat. You cannot glue
a 30" wide panel to ply or particle which does not expand like solid
wood. So I guess you could do screws through slots but you will come
to find that mechanical fastners are not very well matched against the
hydraulic pressures of mother nature.

"mkr5000" wrote in message
...
I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
well?

Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
to 30" or so.

I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
the old fashioned laminate tops.

Why not?

I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
style.

I think it would deform quickly from alternate cycles of moisture/drying,
absorption of oils, natural warpage, temperatures, etc.

Steve

In article
,
mkr5000 wrote:

I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
well?

Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
to 30" or so.

I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
the old fashioned laminate tops.

Why not?

I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
style.

Not durable. There's a reason "butcher block" is edge or (more properly,
but rarely seen) end grain. Flatways, the wood is more prone to dent -
also, wide flat boards in countertop (wet, abusive) use are prone to
warp.

To make a countertop from 1" material, Cut your 1" boards into 2"
strips and glue up 30 or so strips with the 1" side up - or just buy a
butcherblock top (costs less than buying the stock to make one, most of
the time, if you shop well.)

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

mkr5000 wrote:

I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
well?

Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
to 30" or so.

I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
the old fashioned laminate tops.

Why not?

I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
style.

Reinforce maple with particle board?!?!
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

mkr5000 wrote:
I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
well?

Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
to 30" or so.

I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
the old fashioned laminate tops.

Why not?

I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
style.

If you're merely after the butcher-block "look," you might try maple (etc.)
manufactured laminate flooring.

You'll need a router to get the edges to match and some glue.

I did that with a bunch of left-over el cheapo material over a year ago. It
looks nice and works well. I figured if the stuff was designed to withstand
dirt, mud, abrasion, water, and golf shoes, it would cover the funky-looking
60's Formica quite well.

It did.

On Jan 26, 1:14*pm, mkr5000 wrote:
I see a lot of "butcher block" countertops, no doubt made of edge
glued 2 x 2 's ? -- but why can't you make a top from 1 by material as
well?

Like perhaps edge glued 1 x 8 maple, 4 boards across for the depth. 28
to 30" or so.

I suppose that making a 1 1/2" maple edge and then reinforcing the
bottom with 3/4" particle board would be the way to go -- just like
the old fashioned laminate tops.

Why not?

I haven't seen any in doing a google search -- just the butcher block
style.

Maple moves, flakeboard doesn't (assuming it doesn't
rot). Better to join the boards with splines, biscuits,
dowels, whatever you have handy. Compensate
for the boards' tendency to shrink more at the ends
by cutting the joints ever so slightly concave, or
"sprung."

*Compensate
for the boards' tendency to shrink more at the ends
by cutting the joints ever so slightly concave, or
"sprung."

Hmmmm first time I have heard a plausible reason for the sprung joint
(greater shrinkage at the ends). Till now I always thought it was such
crap. Adding tension across the entire joint just never made sense.
Even so, I am still not convinced that having tension across the whole
joint forever, is better than letting glue try to hold the end of a
joint together when it dries out.

On 1/26/2011 3:37 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Compensate
for the boards' tendency to shrink more at the ends
by cutting the joints ever so slightly concave, or
"sprung."

Hmmmm first time I have heard a plausible reason for the sprung joint
(greater shrinkage at the ends). Till now I always thought it was such
crap. Adding tension across the entire joint just never made sense.
Even so, I am still not convinced that having tension across the whole
joint forever, is better than letting glue try to hold the end of a
joint together when it dries out.

With today's modern glues the joint probably *would* hold together, but it
wouldn't surprise me if the wood split as some other location while it was
drying out.

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Well of course I would seal the surface well and use biscuits
liberally on the edges. As for the particle board, it wouldn't be seen
but be under the maple to give it added strength and dimension, just
like a standard laminate top. Plus, I could screw into the maple from
underneath for added strength and stability. ?

I like the idea of using flooring, may look into that or at least try
a sample section.

On Jan 26, 2:11*pm, mkr5000 wrote:
Well of course I would seal the surface well and use biscuits
liberally on the edges. As for the particle board, it wouldn't be seen
but be under the maple to give it added strength and dimension, just
like a standard laminate top. Plus, I could screw into the maple from
underneath for added strength and stability. *?

I like the idea of using flooring, may look into that or at least try
a sample section.

I guess you won't listen to the many reasonable reasons why this isn't
done. You did ask "Why not?" and it was clearly explained. Good luck.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 14:11:30 -0800 (PST), mkr5000
wrote:

Well of course I would seal the surface well [...snip...]

Won't matter. Humidity changes will be slowed a bit but not stopped.

As for the particle board, it wouldn't be seen
but be under the maple to give it added strength and dimension, just
like a standard laminate top. Plus, I could screw into the maple from
underneath for added strength and stability. ?


Yes but the maple will expand and contract with changing humidity and
the particle board underneath won't. The force involved is very large.
The maple will tear the screws out of position. If glued to the
particle board, the maple will break the glue bond.

Jim Weisgram wrote:


Yes but the maple will expand and contract with changing humidity and
the particle board underneath won't. The force involved is very large.
The maple will tear the screws out of position. If glued to the
particle board, the maple will break the glue bond.

I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it is with
the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has not been my
experience. At least - not to this level. I've got plenty of things that
have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the years, that have held
together just well. No extreem movement over the seasons, no splitting, no
angry reactions. To listen to a lot of what's posted here one has to wonder
just how any piece of furniture has survived over the years. Methinks this
notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.

--

-Mike-

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
...
On Jan 26, 2:11 pm, mkr5000 wrote:
Well of course I would seal the surface well and use biscuits
liberally on the edges. As for the particle board, it wouldn't be
seen
but be under the maple to give it added strength and dimension, just
like a standard laminate top. Plus, I could screw into the maple
from
underneath for added strength and stability. ?

I like the idea of using flooring, may look into that or at least
try
a sample section.

I guess you won't listen to the many reasonable reasons why this isn't
done. You did ask "Why not?" and it was clearly explained. Good luck.

SP:

As Google posts are only visible to me by replies, I ask your
indulgence for tagging on to yours.

This OP was just on rcm asking about fabricating various
varieties of something industrial like an "aluminum countertop".
First there was talk of a sheet. Then, maybe, directly butted aluminum
tiles. An interjection on the importance of grout and expansion joints
was raised without any insightful acknowledgement reaching my eyes.
But, again, the full Google feed doesn't land on the doorstep.

Someone mentioned concrete.. .the existence of books
directly relevant to his need and the distinctive problems endemic
to a countertop environment. "Concrete" became the new word
and he was off. Apparently, the windsock caught a woodchip.

I don't mean to be unkind to the OP but in his place, I would
consult written sources on topic (try ("countetop* OR "countertop
materials") and, yes, read them for a foundation that will result in
any remaining questions being a thoughtful and appropriate use
of the kind favor of time and intelligence solicited from others who
may not even win the wages of direct thanks.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

*Methinks this
notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.

Oh yeah, it is just an urban myth that several hundred years of
craftsmanship have developed specific building methods to help avoid
the problems associated with it.

The tools like the shrinkulator are just for kicks
http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm

The academic volumes on the subject are all just whooie like this one
from the feds
Moisture Relations and Physical Properties of Wood
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...chapter_04.pdf

Make up a nice flat panel out of a few pieces of oak. Lay it flat om
the concrete floor in your garage for 24 hours. Tell me what happens.
You can coat it with poly or lacquer first but then it might take 48
or 72 hours before it starts to roll up.

Build a table top out of any wood about 30" wide and add breadboard
ends using a wide tennon\mortise glued all the way across. It might
take a year or two but you'll see the breadboards remove themselves
from the table top.

dadiOH wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Jim Weisgram wrote:


Yes but the maple will expand and contract with changing humidity
and the particle board underneath won't. The force involved is very
large. The maple will tear the screws out of position. If glued to
the particle board, the maple will break the glue bond.

I keep reading about all of this wood movement and how radical it is
with the changing seasons and all, but I have to say - this has not
been my experience. At least - not to this level. I've got plenty
of things that have been glued, screwed, nailed, and spit on over the
years, that have held together just well. No extreem movement over
the seasons, no splitting, no angry reactions. To listen to a lot of
what's posted here one has to wonder just how any piece of furniture
has survived over the years. Methinks this notion of wood movement
has taken on a set of legs of its own.

Got a table - any table - with a solid top? Turn it over and see how
the top is attached to the aprons and ask yourself why it is done
that way.

You miss my point. I was speaking to the idea expressed above my comment,
about the common forces of wood. And... yes I do know how these items are
attached. Look at all of the furniture in your house and see how much of
that is attached solidly, even in cross grain situations. Yes - I do mean
solid wood.

--

-Mike-

In article 5af10434-45c6-414c-9b67-
, says...

*Methinks this
notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.

Oh yeah, it is just an urban myth that several hundred years of
craftsmanship have developed specific building methods to help avoid
the problems associated with it.

The tools like the shrinkulator are just for kicks
http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm

The academic volumes on the subject are all just whooie like this one
from the feds
Moisture Relations and Physical Properties of Wood
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...chapter_04.pdf

Make up a nice flat panel out of a few pieces of oak. Lay it flat om
the concrete floor in your garage for 24 hours. Tell me what happens.
You can coat it with poly or lacquer first but then it might take 48
or 72 hours before it starts to roll up.

Or just lay down a piece of 3/4" plywood.

Build a table top out of any wood about 30" wide and add breadboard
ends using a wide tennon\mortise glued all the way across. It might
take a year or two but you'll see the breadboards remove themselves
from the table top.

J. Clarke wrote:
In article 5af10434-45c6-414c-9b67-
, says...

Methinks this
notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.

Oh yeah, it is just an urban myth that several hundred years of
craftsmanship have developed specific building methods to help avoid
the problems associated with it.

The tools like the shrinkulator are just for kicks
http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm

The academic volumes on the subject are all just whooie like this one
from the feds
Moisture Relations and Physical Properties of Wood
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...chapter_04.pdf

Make up a nice flat panel out of a few pieces of oak. Lay it flat om
the concrete floor in your garage for 24 hours. Tell me what happens.
You can coat it with poly or lacquer first but then it might take 48
or 72 hours before it starts to roll up.

Or just lay down a piece of 3/4" plywood.

Build a table top out of any wood about 30" wide and add breadboard
ends using a wide tennon\mortise glued all the way across. It might
take a year or two but you'll see the breadboards remove themselves
from the table top.

None of the comments above address my original comments. Oh well...

--

-Mike-

On 1/27/2011 9:17 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
In article5af10434-45c6-414c-9b67-
, says...

Methinks this
notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.

Oh yeah, it is just an urban myth that several hundred years of
craftsmanship have developed specific building methods to help avoid
the problems associated with it.

The tools like the shrinkulator are just for kicks
http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm

The academic volumes on the subject are all just whooie like this one
from the feds
Moisture Relations and Physical Properties of Wood
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...chapter_04.pdf

Make up a nice flat panel out of a few pieces of oak. Lay it flat om
the concrete floor in your garage for 24 hours. Tell me what happens.
You can coat it with poly or lacquer first but then it might take 48
or 72 hours before it starts to roll up.

Or just lay down a piece of 3/4" plywood.

Build a table top out of any wood about 30" wide and add breadboard
ends using a wide tennon\mortise glued all the way across. It might
take a year or two but you'll see the breadboards remove themselves
from the table top.

None of the comments above address my original comments. Oh well...

If you are the original poster, I believe the consensus of 1000's of
years of wood working experience and the poster to your question is it
is a bad idea.

EDWARD --

Get over yourself.

I love newsgroups for hands on feedback from folks -- that's why I'm
here.

The stuff you can't get in a book.

I like to be thorough -- so what? Every project I've pursued has
ultimately been 100% and often BETTER than pro. I've done my share of
woodworking, have a complete
metalworking shop complete with CNC -- blah blah blah.

I've never built a countertop other than laminate and I've done
several that way -- again I'M HERE for "personal experiences" on
materials I haven't used for this application.


Don't be a girl.
And stop already with your pompous English.

knuttle wrote:
On 1/27/2011 9:17 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
In article5af10434-45c6-414c-9b67-
, says...

Methinks this
notion of wood movement has taken on a set of legs of its own.

Oh yeah, it is just an urban myth that several hundred years of
craftsmanship have developed specific building methods to help
avoid the problems associated with it.

The tools like the shrinkulator are just for kicks
http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm

The academic volumes on the subject are all just whooie like this
one from the feds
Moisture Relations and Physical Properties of Wood
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...chapter_04.pdf

Make up a nice flat panel out of a few pieces of oak. Lay it flat
om the concrete floor in your garage for 24 hours. Tell me what
happens. You can coat it with poly or lacquer first but then it
might take 48 or 72 hours before it starts to roll up.

Or just lay down a piece of 3/4" plywood.

Build a table top out of any wood about 30" wide and add breadboard
ends using a wide tennon\mortise glued all the way across. It might
take a year or two but you'll see the breadboards remove themselves
from the table top.

None of the comments above address my original comments. Oh well...

If you are the original poster, I believe the consensus of 1000's of
years of wood working experience and the poster to your question is it
is a bad idea.

I am not the original poster. I believe the consensus of 1000's of years is
that wood has successfully been joined without the catastrophic predictions
put forward. To quote one of the regulars here - look underneath some of
your furniture and ask yourself how in the hell did that piece not rip
itself apart. According to the guys on the newsgroup, this thing should
have exploded by now.

--

-Mike-

mkr5000 wrote:
EDWARD --

Get over yourself.

I love newsgroups for hands on feedback from folks -- that's why I'm
here.

The stuff you can't get in a book.

I like to be thorough -- so what? Every project I've pursued has
ultimately been 100% and often BETTER than pro. I've done my share of
woodworking, have a complete
metalworking shop complete with CNC -- blah blah blah.

I've never built a countertop other than laminate and I've done
several that way -- again I'M HERE for "personal experiences" on
materials I haven't used for this application.


Don't be a girl.
And stop already with your pompous English.

It always helps if you leave the attributes and the quoted text in place
when posting a reply.

--

-Mike-

knuttle wrote:


If you are the original poster, I believe the consensus of 1000's of
years of wood working experience and the poster to your question is it
is a bad idea.

Ok - to be more fair to knuttle's response...

As I said, I am not the OP. I'm just the guy that said that this whole
topic of wood movement has taken on legs of its own. To hear the people
here, one would think that any form of joinery is going to result in
movement forces so great that they will shear screws that are part of the
joinery. It is that point with which I take exception.

Certainly wood moves. The problem here is that when a person makes an
extremem statement and it is challenged, voices pop out of the woodwork
quoting the experience of a thousand years. Yawn. People tell you to look
at furniture in your house. Yawn. Do that. Look at that furniture and you
will be shocked to discover how much of it should have been warped into a
pretzel by now, according to the rhetorical expertise that gets thrown
about.

A lot of guys here throw out expertise based upon what they have read and
not based upon what exists around them, or what they have actually done and
experienced. I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential.

I have dining room furniture that is not assembled according to the
recommendations that the outspoken voices proclaim must be - and after over
100 years, guess what - it's still solid, level and flat.

I simply encourage people who jump to quick answers to look around and see
what their furniture is built like. Don't just jump into some often quoted
technique about breadboard ends, as if that explains everything. Think
about the application being discussed, about the problem at hand, about the
evidence in front of your eyes.

It does no good to suggest throwing a build up of oak boards on the garage
floor - or even a piece of plywood on the garage floor. Is that what you
are building? Is that where it will be used?

A lot of guys here like to think of themselves as "craftsmen" becuase they
do things a certain way - regardless of whether that way was even called
for. Oh well. The fact is that the real craftsmen (myself not included in
that term) have figured out when to apply the principles of wood movement,
and when not to worry about it. And... to what extent. There is an awful
lot of unwarranted alarmist theory prvelent here that is just not well
founded woodworking practice. At a point, after it's gone on long enough...
it takes on a life of it's own. That though, does not make it accurate.

--

-Mike-

On 1/27/11 3:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
knuttle wrote:


If you are the original poster, I believe the consensus of 1000's of
years of wood working experience and the poster to your question is it
is a bad idea.

Ok - to be more fair to knuttle's response...

As I said, I am not the OP. I'm just the guy that said that this whole
topic of wood movement has taken on legs of its own. To hear the people
here, one would think that any form of joinery is going to result in
movement forces so great that they will shear screws that are part of the
joinery. It is that point with which I take exception.

Certainly wood moves. The problem here is that when a person makes an
extremem statement and it is challenged, voices pop out of the woodwork
quoting the experience of a thousand years. Yawn. People tell you to look
at furniture in your house. Yawn. Do that. Look at that furniture and you
will be shocked to discover how much of it should have been warped into a
pretzel by now, according to the rhetorical expertise that gets thrown
about.

A lot of guys here throw out expertise based upon what they have read and
not based upon what exists around them, or what they have actually done and
experienced. I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential.

I have dining room furniture that is not assembled according to the
recommendations that the outspoken voices proclaim must be - and after over
100 years, guess what - it's still solid, level and flat.

I simply encourage people who jump to quick answers to look around and see
what their furniture is built like. Don't just jump into some often quoted
technique about breadboard ends, as if that explains everything. Think
about the application being discussed, about the problem at hand, about the
evidence in front of your eyes.

It does no good to suggest throwing a build up of oak boards on the garage
floor - or even a piece of plywood on the garage floor. Is that what you
are building? Is that where it will be used?

A lot of guys here like to think of themselves as "craftsmen" becuase they
do things a certain way - regardless of whether that way was even called
for. Oh well. The fact is that the real craftsmen (myself not included in
that term) have figured out when to apply the principles of wood movement,
and when not to worry about it. And... to what extent. There is an awful
lot of unwarranted alarmist theory prvelent here that is just not well
founded woodworking practice. At a point, after it's gone on long enough...
it takes on a life of it's own. That though, does not make it accurate.


I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
dust by now.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:


I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
dust by now.

Dude - I owe you a beer. Oh wait - you're a drummer... How about I just
send you a free metronome?

--

-Mike-

You miss my point. *I was speaking to the idea expressed above my comment,
about the common forces of wood. *And... yes I do know how these items are
attached. *Look at all of the furniture in your house and see how much of
that is attached solidly, even in cross grain situations. *Yes - I do mean
solid wood.

--

-Mike-
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nobody misses your point. We should just realize by now you are
hopeless in your denial.

A 30" wide piece of wood is going to vary by more than 1/4" in width
over the span of a year in any environment with changing weather.
Maybe somewhere in mid-California you can be consistent enough this
won't happen. When that wood changes size, it will break things if it
can't find some way to accommodate that expansion or contraction. I
have seen it as have millions of intelligent woodworkers over the
centuries.

On 1/27/11 3:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:


I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
dust by now.

Dude - I owe you a beer. Oh wait - you're a drummer... How about I just
send you a free metronome?


I'll take the beer..... metronome ends up getting turned off half way
through the first verse anyway, because the lead vox has no drums in her
monitor.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/27/2011 3:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

As I said, I am not the OP. I'm just the guy that said that this whole
topic of wood movement has taken on legs of its own. To hear the people
here, one would think that any form of joinery is going to result in
movement forces so great that they will shear screws that are part of the
joinery. It is that point with which I take exception.

Certainly wood moves. The problem here is that when a person makes an
extremem statement and it is challenged, voices pop out of the woodwork
quoting the experience of a thousand years. Yawn. People tell you to look
at furniture in your house. Yawn. Do that. Look at that furniture and you
will be shocked to discover how much of it should have been warped into a
pretzel by now, according to the rhetorical expertise that gets thrown
about.

A lot of guys here throw out expertise based upon what they have read and
not based upon what exists around them, or what they have actually done and
experienced. I have a complete set of cupboards that have doors made out of
1x6 T&G with cleats glued and screwed on the back side. Guess what -
they've held true for over 25 years in the seasonal changes of Central NY
state, where humidity does vary enough to be considered consequential.

I have dining room furniture that is not assembled according to the
recommendations that the outspoken voices proclaim must be - and after over
100 years, guess what - it's still solid, level and flat.

I simply encourage people who jump to quick answers to look around and see
what their furniture is built like. Don't just jump into some often quoted
technique about breadboard ends, as if that explains everything. Think
about the application being discussed, about the problem at hand, about the
evidence in front of your eyes.

It does no good to suggest throwing a build up of oak boards on the garage
floor - or even a piece of plywood on the garage floor. Is that what you
are building? Is that where it will be used?

A lot of guys here like to think of themselves as "craftsmen" becuase they
do things a certain way - regardless of whether that way was even called
for. Oh well. The fact is that the real craftsmen (myself not included in
that term) have figured out when to apply the principles of wood movement,
and when not to worry about it. And... to what extent. There is an awful
lot of unwarranted alarmist theory prvelent here that is just not well
founded woodworking practice. At a point, after it's gone on long enough...
it takes on a life of it's own. That though, does not make it accurate.

What he said ...

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

SonomaProducts.com wrote:
You miss my point. I was speaking to the idea expressed above my
comment, about the common forces of wood. And... yes I do know how
these items are attached. Look at all of the furniture in your house
and see how much of that is attached solidly, even in cross grain
situations. Yes - I do mean solid wood.

--

-Mike-
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nobody misses your point. We should just realize by now you are
hopeless in your denial.

You have no clue at all.


A 30" wide piece of wood is going to vary by more than 1/4" in width
over the span of a year in any environment with changing weather.

Go look at your dining room table or other furniture you may have. I have
more than one 30" glue up in my garage right now that were intended for
other purposes, and that are currently 4-5 years old, and do not exhibit
your proposed symptoms. Kindly explain that phenonenom. In fact - your
statement above is only true in a context, but in generality... untrue.

Maybe somewhere in mid-California you can be consistent enough this
won't happen.

And that has what to do with Central NY state? You - like many, quote
irrelevant distractions in attempt to pursuade others that you have some
unique knowledge.


When that wood changes size, it will break things if it
can't find some way to accommodate that expansion or contraction.

Again - something besides theoretical rhetoric. I gave you a real world
experience. Counter that in like terms. Look at the furniture in your
house before you reply.

I
have seen it as have millions of intelligent woodworkers over the
centuries.

I am not sure you have understood the conditions under which they speak.

--

-Mike-

-MIKE- wrote:
On 1/27/11 3:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:


I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
dust by now.

Dude - I owe you a beer. Oh wait - you're a drummer... How about I
just send you a free metronome?


I'll take the beer..... metronome ends up getting turned off half way
through the first verse anyway, because the lead vox has no drums in
her monitor.

My kind of drummer!!! Just as long as me (lead guitar) and you can see each
other from time to time.

--

-Mike-

SonomaProducts.com wrote:
You miss my point. I was speaking to the idea expressed above my
comment, about the common forces of wood. And... yes I do know how
these items are attached. Look at all of the furniture in your house
and see how much of that is attached solidly, even in cross grain
situations. Yes - I do mean solid wood.

--

-Mike-
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nobody misses your point. We should just realize by now you are
hopeless in your denial.

BTW - the evidence of shearing screws? I think you've fallen off the track.


--

-Mike-

..

On 1/27/11 4:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 1/27/11 3:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:


I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
dust by now.

Dude - I owe you a beer. Oh wait - you're a drummer... How about I
just send you a free metronome?


I'll take the beer..... metronome ends up getting turned off half way
through the first verse anyway, because the lead vox has no drums in
her monitor.

My kind of drummer!!! Just as long as me (lead guitar) and you can see each
other from time to time.


I hope you're not one of those lead guys who thinks time is a magazine. :-)

What do you throw a drowning lead player?
His amp.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:


I hope you're not one of those lead guys who thinks time is a
magazine. :-)

It isn't??????? Holy ****! But - I'm an open minded player. Speak to me
brother... Actually no - I'm one of those lead players who really syncs up
with the drummer. Some very large percentage of my dynamics are derived
there.


What do you throw a drowning lead player?
His amp.

Ohhhhhhh..... you never should have thrown that one out there. But, I'm
going to resist. Shows how nice a guy I really am, don't it? I'm biting my
tongue, but I'm going to be a nice guy. After all - my mom told me never to
make fun of the handicapped...
xis

On 1/27/2011 3:37 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

A 30" wide piece of wood is going to vary by more than 1/4" in width
over the span of a year in any environment with changing weather.

Well, realistically, that might be too much, or way too little.

In order to say that with any accuracy one would also have to specify
the species of wood and its cut/whether the shrinkage is radial,
tangential or a combination thereof, the expected change in RH from
equilibrium moisture content/initial moisture content at start of the
change.

One also needs to consider that wood shrinkage tables are based on an
"average", which means there are extremes on both ends.

IOW, and although it is a good place to start, if you plan for just the
average based on a table and with no prior experience factor, you could
well err significantly either way, to the detriment of the project.

Mike is not saying to ignore the dimensional instability of your project
wood, but that all to often what is meant as a guide is taken as gospel
.... IOW, the difference between an in-depth understanding of the issue,
and mistaking opinion as knowledge.

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 27, 4:15*pm, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:

I bet they're not made of oak or those screws would have corroded to
dust by now.

Dude - I owe you a beer. *Oh wait - you're a drummer... How about I just
send you a free metronome?

--

-Mike-



Oooooooooooo

Go look at your dining room table or other furniture you may have. *I have
more than one 30" glue up in my garage right now that were intended for
other purposes, and that are currently 4-5 years old, and do not exhibit
your proposed symptoms.

MEASURE THE WIDTH OF THAT GLUE-UP EVERY DAY FOR A YEAR AND TELL ME
WHAT YOU SEE.

And that has what to do with Central NY state? *You - like many, quote
irrelevant distractions in attempt to pursuade others that you have some
unique knowledge.
CALIFORNIA EVEN HUMIDITY AND TEMPERATURE ALL YEAR = MINIMUM
DIMENSIONAL CHANGE. NY = LOTS OF CHANGE IN WINTER WHEN HEATER DRYS OUT
HOUSE. LOTS OF CHANGE IN SUMMER WHEN HUMIDITY RUNS HIGH.



Again - something besides theoretical rhetoric. *I gave you a real world
experience. *Counter that in like terms. *Look at the furniture in your
house before you reply.
OK, BUILD YOURSELF A KITCHEN WITH COPE AND STICK DOORS WITH SOLID WOOD
PANELS. LEAVE ZERO CLEARANCE AND GLUE IN THE PANELS AT ALL SIDES.
WRITE BACK IN A YEAR OR TWO.


have seen it as have millions of intelligent woodworkers over the
centuries.

I am not sure you have understood the conditions under which they speak.

DON'T QUITE FOLLOW YOUR MEANING

BTW - the evidence of shearing screws? *I think you've fallen off the track.


DONT RECALL MENTIONING SHEARING SCREWS PERSONNALY. HAVE SEEN BENT
ONES. A SCREW IS NO MATCH TO EXPANDING WOOD. USUALLY SOMETHING MORE
LIKE CRACKS, BROKEN GLUE JOINTS, ETC.

Mike is not saying to ignore the dimensional instability of your project
wood, but that all to often what is meant as a guide is taken as gospel
... IOW, the difference between an in-depth understanding of the issue,
and mistaking opinion as knowledge.

NOT TALKING OPINION, JUST FACT. HOW ABOUT THE SLED WITH A PERFECTLY
FIT OAK RUNNER FOR THE TABLE SLOT. STARTS GETTING TOO TIGHT TO USE.
SANDED AWAY TO FIT, 3 OR 4 TIMES OVER A PERIOD OF A FEW WEEKS. SIX
MONTHS LATER IT IS SO SLOPPY IT IS UNUSABLE. I GUESS MAYBE THE CAST
IRON SLOT WAS EXPANDING AND CONTRACTING.

On 1/27/11 4:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
I hope you're not one of those lead guys who thinks time is a
magazine. :-)

It isn't??????? Holy ****! But - I'm an open minded player. Speak to me
brother... Actually no - I'm one of those lead players who really syncs up
with the drummer. Some very large percentage of my dynamics are derived
there.


Maybe we'll get to jam together one day. That would be cool.



What do you throw a drowning lead player?
His amp.

Ohhhhhhh..... you never should have thrown that one out there. But, I'm
going to resist. Shows how nice a guy I really am, don't it? I'm biting my
tongue, but I'm going to be a nice guy. After all - my mom told me never to
make fun of the handicapped...
xis


I have literally heard them all. I'm on the committee.

Did you hear about the band who locked their keys in the van?
It took them 2 hours to get the bass player out.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/27/2011 6:56 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Mike is not saying to ignore the dimensional instability of your project
wood, but that all to often what is meant as a guide is taken as gospel
... IOW, the difference between an in-depth understanding of the issue,
and mistaking opinion as knowledge.

NOT TALKING OPINION, JUST FACT. HOW ABOUT THE SLED WITH A PERFECTLY
FIT OAK RUNNER FOR THE TABLE SLOT. STARTS GETTING TOO TIGHT TO USE.
SANDED AWAY TO FIT, 3 OR 4 TIMES OVER A PERIOD OF A FEW WEEKS. SIX
MONTHS LATER IT IS SO SLOPPY IT IS UNUSABLE. I GUESS MAYBE THE CAST
IRON SLOT WAS EXPANDING AND CONTRACTING.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...chapter_13.pdf

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KarlC@ (the obvious)