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  #1   Report Post  
Clarke Echols
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

I have received requests to post my observations about dust collection
to the WRECK for the benefit of the requesters and others readers of the
group.

I see a lot of discussion about bag-type dust collectors, overhead
dust filters, and trash-can separators. Most of these discussions
ignore the severe health hazards that come from not properly collecting
and processing the extremely fine dust that comes from table saws,
sanding, and other wooodworking activities.

I was looking for an inexpensive bag-type collector last year when
I encountered Bill Pentz's web site at

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworki...lone/index.cfm

and read of his experience with severe asthma and his near-fatal encounter
with fine wood dust. My experience with cutting MDF on my Unisaw quickly
convinced me he was not exaggerating at all, and I decided to build a
cyclone using his design. I commend his site to everyone's careful
perusal. EVERY woodworker, serious or casual hobbyist, owes to himself
(or herself), spouse, family, and others to be well-informed about the
DANGERS to life and health that come from working with wood and being
around wood dust!

After working with Bill, who has done more research on the subject
than probably nearly anybody on planet earth, for much of the last
year, I have a radically broadened view of dust collection, and am
now manufacturing kit cyclones at his invitation that are based on
his exceptional design work. I am the only person authorized to do
so (other than if one builds his design for personal use):

( http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworki...larkesKits.cfm )

After firing up my own cyclone and actually using it, I have some
observations from the "real world".

AVOID AIR FILTER "SOLUTIONS"! Putting an air filter up to recirculate the
air and filter it as it passes through is like taking a 5-gallon bottle
of muddy water, pumping it through a filter at one pint per minute, then
returning the filtered water to the bottle. How long would it take for
the water to be perfectly clear if you have an agitator in the water that
keeps the dirt from settling out? With one water-change per 40 minutes,
how many water changes to get it all out? A very many! Yet that's
what you are doing to the air in your shop when you rely on an air filter
unit to clean up the air. It is virtually impossible to eliminate dust
from your shop air by using an overhead air filter. You might reduce
it, but the fine dust is more dangerous to your health than the course
dust caught by bag-type dust collectors!

The ONLY way to get rid of dust in the shop and properly protect your
lungs is to have an ADEQUATE collector that separates the dust from the
air (only cyclones can do this very well), then filters the air at not
more than 0.5 micron, or better yet, 0.3 or 0.2 micron with filters
that are at least 99.97% efficient. If the cyclone doesn't remove nearly
all of the micro-fine dust before it goes to the blower, the fine dust
will plug the filters in short order, and if it doesn't have especially
low static pressure loss through the cyclone, you won't have much
left to power the system, especially if you don't have a 14" blower that
can carry at least 1000 CFM against 9 or 10" of static pressure (which
requires a 5-HP motor, not a 1-1/2 or 2-HP blower -- you can't violate
the fundamental laws of physics).

A 10" table saw requires at least 900 CFM (500 CFM or more below
and 300 or more above) to capture enough air around the machine to
keep fine dust from getting into the external air in the room. The
dust-laden air can then be processed, cleaned and returned to the room
without filling the air with fine dust. (Bill's site has a page on the
required CFM for various kinds of tools and machines.)

The units I've been designing and manufacturing under license from Bill
Pentz use highly effective air-flow management to get the really fine
dust out inside the cyclone so it can be used with high-efficiency micro-fine
filters. The design also minimizes static pressure (some competing
cyclones have internal static-pressure drops ranging from 2-4 times
as much pressure loss as this design), and excessive static pressure
loss through the cyclone really damages the ability of the system
to perform as it must.

The cost for a complete installation of a quality system is about
what you'd pay for a new Kirby or Rainbow household vacuum cleaner, if
even that much. If a good system were to save a few weeks in the
hospital allow you to escape spending the rest of your life suffering
from asthma, allergies, emphysema, or cancer, it would be a priceless
value.

Whether you get my system or another is not important. What IS important
is that you take some serious time and really understand the importance
of doing the job RIGHT the first time (it's always cheaper that way in the
long run), even if you have to postpone buying some other neato tool
you just HAVE to have. Take a few hours and study the material on Bill's
site and get informed about the real issues related to dust collections,
and understand the principles behind proper dust collection before you
start spending your hard-earned cash.

If you have other questions, feel free to contact me by private email.

Clarke
  #2   Report Post  
Ed Clarke
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

In article , Clarke Echols wrote:

and read of his experience with severe asthma and his near-fatal encounter
with fine wood dust. My experience with cutting MDF on my Unisaw quickly
convinced me he was not exaggerating at all, and I decided to build a
cyclone using his design. I commend his site to everyone's careful
perusal. EVERY woodworker, serious or casual hobbyist, owes to himself
(or herself), spouse, family, and others to be well-informed about the
DANGERS to life and health that come from working with wood and being
around wood dust!


[snip]

I'm using a bag type collector to get the large scale sawdust and a JDS
style collector to filter out the fine dust (eventually). This combination
keeps the place clean enough to do some finishing work. As mentioned in
your posting, this is not sufficient to protect ME. For that I use an
airmate powered unit. This gives me a hard hat, a face shield and dust
protection.

I'm considering buying organic cartridges for the unit also because I'm
unhappy with what I read on MSDS labels for thinners, solvents and strippers.
Your cyclone won't help at all with airborne chemical hazards and most masks
don't work worth a damn for those of us who have hair that has migrated
down from our head and onto our face.
  #3   Report Post  
Bob S.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

Clarke,

Some friendly criticisms that may be helpful to you in the future and
hopefully you'll accept them in that tone.

Someone may in-fact have asked you to make this post. Would you care to
inform us who it is that is so interested in our health so we can thank
them?

Your cause is time honored and a worthy one - good ole free-enterprise
riding on the back of someone else's work.

Several observations for you to consider. Fine-tune your marketing skills;
shorten your sales-pitch; and simplify your web site presentation. You have
about 3 seconds to capture our attention with your web presence or we're
gone. Think about adding some informative pictures or graphics, succinct
descriptions and some white-space.

A quick synopsis of your web site: $190 gets you a bag of bolts, and some
formed sheet metal, plans and its called a kit.

No motor, no fan, no mounting hardware, filters, ducting, wiring etc.
Perhaps I missed it, your site can be confusing but what is the final cost
of a cyclone of yours as compared to an Oneida and others of similar size -
all decked out and ready to go?

You may have an excellent product and the price may be a great deal for what
you're selling but you don't make it easy to figure that out. Some of us
don't want to know everything there is to know about air filtration and how
to extract the last micron of dust. We want a system and would like to see
some real-world comparisons since not to many hobbyist woodworkers get the
opportunity to compare DC systems. As you're well aware, info is sometimes
sketchy or overly technical, it can be hard to correlate to real-world needs
and comparisons are expected.

Tell us why yours is better (prove it), what features it has, available
options, warranty, availability, and costs. Present it so it doesn't sound
like a mad scientist is trying to tell us we're all going to die because we
have some dust-bunnies in our shops.

Some infomercials actually do convey useful information. I think you missed
the mark but I sure am willing to read a post that is presented properly and
fairly. If you think you have a better mouse trap - I'm interested in
learning more about it but I really don't need any more snake oil today -
thank you.

Bob S.


"Clarke Echols" wrote in message
...
I have received requests to post my observations about dust collection
to the WRECK for the benefit of the requesters and others readers of the
group.

I see a lot of discussion about bag-type dust collectors, overhead
dust filters, and trash-can separators. Most of these discussions
ignore the severe health hazards that come from not properly collecting
and processing the extremely fine dust that comes from table saws,
sanding, and other wooodworking activities.

I was looking for an inexpensive bag-type collector last year when
I encountered Bill Pentz's web site at

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworki...lone/index.cfm

and read of his experience with severe asthma and his near-fatal encounter
with fine wood dust. My experience with cutting MDF on my Unisaw quickly
convinced me he was not exaggerating at all, and I decided to build a
cyclone using his design. I commend his site to everyone's careful
perusal. EVERY woodworker, serious or casual hobbyist, owes to himself
(or herself), spouse, family, and others to be well-informed about the
DANGERS to life and health that come from working with wood and being
around wood dust!

After working with Bill, who has done more research on the subject
than probably nearly anybody on planet earth, for much of the last
year, I have a radically broadened view of dust collection, and am
now manufacturing kit cyclones at his invitation that are based on
his exceptional design work. I am the only person authorized to do
so (other than if one builds his design for personal use):

( http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworki...larkesKits.cfm )

After firing up my own cyclone and actually using it, I have some
observations from the "real world".

AVOID AIR FILTER "SOLUTIONS"! Putting an air filter up to recirculate the
air and filter it as it passes through is like taking a 5-gallon bottle
of muddy water, pumping it through a filter at one pint per minute, then
returning the filtered water to the bottle. How long would it take for
the water to be perfectly clear if you have an agitator in the water that
keeps the dirt from settling out? With one water-change per 40 minutes,
how many water changes to get it all out? A very many! Yet that's
what you are doing to the air in your shop when you rely on an air filter
unit to clean up the air. It is virtually impossible to eliminate dust
from your shop air by using an overhead air filter. You might reduce
it, but the fine dust is more dangerous to your health than the course
dust caught by bag-type dust collectors!

The ONLY way to get rid of dust in the shop and properly protect your
lungs is to have an ADEQUATE collector that separates the dust from the
air (only cyclones can do this very well), then filters the air at not
more than 0.5 micron, or better yet, 0.3 or 0.2 micron with filters
that are at least 99.97% efficient. If the cyclone doesn't remove nearly
all of the micro-fine dust before it goes to the blower, the fine dust
will plug the filters in short order, and if it doesn't have especially
low static pressure loss through the cyclone, you won't have much
left to power the system, especially if you don't have a 14" blower that
can carry at least 1000 CFM against 9 or 10" of static pressure (which
requires a 5-HP motor, not a 1-1/2 or 2-HP blower -- you can't violate
the fundamental laws of physics).

A 10" table saw requires at least 900 CFM (500 CFM or more below
and 300 or more above) to capture enough air around the machine to
keep fine dust from getting into the external air in the room. The
dust-laden air can then be processed, cleaned and returned to the room
without filling the air with fine dust. (Bill's site has a page on the
required CFM for various kinds of tools and machines.)

The units I've been designing and manufacturing under license from Bill
Pentz use highly effective air-flow management to get the really fine
dust out inside the cyclone so it can be used with high-efficiency

micro-fine
filters. The design also minimizes static pressure (some competing
cyclones have internal static-pressure drops ranging from 2-4 times
as much pressure loss as this design), and excessive static pressure
loss through the cyclone really damages the ability of the system
to perform as it must.

The cost for a complete installation of a quality system is about
what you'd pay for a new Kirby or Rainbow household vacuum cleaner, if
even that much. If a good system were to save a few weeks in the
hospital allow you to escape spending the rest of your life suffering
from asthma, allergies, emphysema, or cancer, it would be a priceless
value.

Whether you get my system or another is not important. What IS important
is that you take some serious time and really understand the importance
of doing the job RIGHT the first time (it's always cheaper that way in the
long run), even if you have to postpone buying some other neato tool
you just HAVE to have. Take a few hours and study the material on Bill's
site and get informed about the real issues related to dust collections,
and understand the principles behind proper dust collection before you
start spending your hard-earned cash.

If you have other questions, feel free to contact me by private email.

Clarke



  #4   Report Post  
Han
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

I, too, have repeatedly gone to Clarke's site, and left it again because I
can't figure what to get.

I REALLY am about to get myself a DC, question is which one? I am a just a
hobbyist with a jointer (maybe soon a planer), and a tablesaw as major wood
destroyers, with of course drills, and sanders as well.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
  #5   Report Post  
Larry Laminger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!



Bob S. wrote:

Clarke,

Some friendly criticisms that may be helpful to you in the future and
hopefully you'll accept them in that tone.

snip

Bob S.


"Clarke Echols" wrote in message
...

I have received requests to post my observations about dust collection
to the WRECK for the benefit of the requesters and others readers of the
group.

infomercial attempt snipped
Clarke


Thanks for sorting all that out Bob...thought I was just tired and
missed something. I went to the site with credit card in hand, ready to
buy myself cyclone kit...but never could quite figure out what I was
going to get for my money. The best I can figure is that I'm supposed
to buy a really good dust collector from (somebody?), destroy it, then
form up some sheet metal and buy a (pricey) bag of bolts from this site.



--
Larry G. Laminger
http://woodworks.laminger.com



  #6   Report Post  
hex
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

"Bob S." wrote in message .. .
Clarke,

Some friendly criticisms that may be helpful to you in the future and
hopefully you'll accept them in that tone.

Someone may in-fact have asked you to make this post. Would you care to
inform us who it is that is so interested in our health so we can thank
them?


Now Bob,

Clarke is probably just upset that when he actually posted to the
wreck with a subject line that indicated he was selling his
bag-o-bolts and sheet metal he didn't get much of a response back in
December. Possibly he has been learning from the best marketing
organization on the planet (Microsoft) and is now trying to spread
fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). That's not to say the dangers of
dust aren't real. However, as all good marketers do he points to the
guy who has the worst possible response to a problem. Let's face it
there are no large controlled epidemiological studies comparing
hobbiest woodworkers to other hobbiests -- we don't know what the real
level of risk is. For example, weekend auto-body guys probably do
more neurological damage due to thinners in one spray job than a
lifetime of wiping on oil finishes. Seeking to foster a knee-jerk
reaction is the technique of people who wish to sue schools for
allowing those anaphylactic shock inducing peanuts in the lunch room.
Life is a statistical crap shoot, you cannot control the outcome.
You can bias the distribution by you actions or inactions --- each
bias comes with a cost (monetary, temporal, and/or emotional).

hex
-30-
  #7   Report Post  
JLucas ILS
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

You are so right on. I can;t imagine reading all those words and then, actually
buying something. The donation paragraph is handing for "all those people who
have asked." Will make him rivj for sure...I just hope he will keep the words
up for the unbelievers.
  #8   Report Post  
Dennis M. O'Connor
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

There are some dust collection solutions that are
so effective that the people who make them _don't_
need to shill for them on USENET to sell them !
Imagine that !

Why , I myself bought an Oneida cyclonic system,
even though they _never_ shilled for it on the rec !
And you know, it really works well. I don't have
days of respiratory problems after working in the shop
anymore. It was money well spent, although once
I had all the ducting up and all, it was indeed a lot
of money: about as much as my Unisaw.

BTW, I'm pretty happy with my Unisaw, too,
especially with the overhead guard and Beisemeyer
pop-in splitter, even though I've never seen anyone
shill for those products on USENET either.
--
Dennis M. O'Connor


  #9   Report Post  
JLucas ILS
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

this example of shilling is on the same level, almost, as the SawStop and its
ability to stop cutting hot dogs. Frankly, I think there is no better way to
cut hot dogs than with a Unisaw...and safely.
  #10   Report Post  
Young_carpenter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

I was thinking along the same lines as some of the things.
The marketing strategy is built upon the idea that A. I can't take
responsibility for my own safety someone else has to come up with a device
to fix everything all at once or it is worthless.
B. By attacking a competition product, causing fear that if it doesn't work
tip top it must be bad so get rid of it.

HE references the airfilter as not doing enough so it shouldn't even be
used! However water is a bit different than air and dust. 1st Our lungs do
have a certain amount of filtering capacity, and it is exposure over time
that can cause problems. but because of how the respiratory system works
even a small exposure probably doesn't mean anything (otherwise you would
never recuperate from your cold or dust from the attic, etc.) (for the
general public not people with respiratory problems) and 2nd Muddy water
indicates bad stuff and one drink exposes you to the disease. Your chances
are even greater of getting the bacteria than having problems with filtered
air. The effect would be additive with filtered air. The big stuff doesn't
hang in the air because the collector. the filter reduces (notice the word
reduces not totally removes) the amount hanging in the air. The lungs are
no longer overwhelmed an expel the pollutants.
Even the title indicates that Dustcollectors themselves are very bad for
your health. As compared to what? Not having one at all? Come on! I
should stop wearing a dustmask too because I find some dust inside once in a
while. In the case of dust collection anything is better than nothing.
Ok enough said.

--
Young Carpenter

"Violin playing and Woodworking are similar, it takes plenty of money,
plenty of practice, and you usually make way more noise than intended"

{Put the fiddler back "on" the roof to reply}
--


"hex" wrote in message
om...
"Bob S." wrote in message

.. .
Clarke,

Some friendly criticisms that may be helpful to you in the future and
hopefully you'll accept them in that tone.

Someone may in-fact have asked you to make this post. Would you care to
inform us who it is that is so interested in our health so we can thank
them?


Now Bob,

Clarke is probably just upset that when he actually posted to the
wreck with a subject line that indicated he was selling his
bag-o-bolts and sheet metal he didn't get much of a response back in
December. Possibly he has been learning from the best marketing
organization on the planet (Microsoft) and is now trying to spread
fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). That's not to say the dangers of
dust aren't real. However, as all good marketers do he points to the
guy who has the worst possible response to a problem. Let's face it
there are no large controlled epidemiological studies comparing
hobbiest woodworkers to other hobbiests -- we don't know what the real
level of risk is. For example, weekend auto-body guys probably do
more neurological damage due to thinners in one spray job than a
lifetime of wiping on oil finishes. Seeking to foster a knee-jerk
reaction is the technique of people who wish to sue schools for
allowing those anaphylactic shock inducing peanuts in the lunch room.
Life is a statistical crap shoot, you cannot control the outcome.
You can bias the distribution by you actions or inactions --- each
bias comes with a cost (monetary, temporal, and/or emotional).

hex
-30-






  #11   Report Post  
Bob S.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

John...could you demo that on your site please......this I gotta see and
have Beth do it too....

Bob S.


"JLucas ILS" wrote in message
...
this example of shilling is on the same level, almost, as the SawStop and

its
ability to stop cutting hot dogs. Frankly, I think there is no better way

to
cut hot dogs than with a Unisaw...and safely.



  #12   Report Post  
Steve Knight
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!


Thanks for sorting all that out Bob...thought I was just tired and
missed something. I went to the site with credit card in hand, ready to
buy myself cyclone kit...but never could quite figure out what I was
going to get for my money. The best I can figure is that I'm supposed
to buy a really good dust collector from (somebody?), destroy it, then
form up some sheet metal and buy a (pricey) bag of bolts from this site.



this enterprise is still a bit new. I got my cyclone directly from bill. he was
worried about me.
it is something that you have to work for yourself. I think right now it would
be way to expensive to buy it pre made. but the kit gives you flexibility in
the motor and fan cost and filters.
but the site does need some work. but hey all you need is to trade someone a
cyclone for a new site. it sure works for me.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
  #13   Report Post  
James D. Kountz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

What is really interesting about this entire thread is that all of the
replies were much more informative, easier to read and sunk in better than
the op. Thanks guys for selling me on a dust collector. Not Clarks
necessarily but a dust collector of some kind.........which I already have
and am comfortable with.

Jim


"Bob S." wrote in message
...
John...could you demo that on your site please......this I gotta see and
have Beth do it too....

Bob S.


"JLucas ILS" wrote in message
...
this example of shilling is on the same level, almost, as the SawStop

and
its
ability to stop cutting hot dogs. Frankly, I think there is no better

way
to
cut hot dogs than with a Unisaw...and safely.





  #14   Report Post  
Rich Stern
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

I have received requests to post my observations about dust collection
to the WRECK for the benefit of the requesters and others readers of the
group.


Try this next time:

"I am selling a kit version of Bill Pentz's health-safeguarding dust collection
design. Bill is a leading expert on this topic. If you suffer from
respiratory distress or discomfort related to woodworking dust, you owe it to
your lungs to have the best possible dust collection system you can afford. My
kit, designed with Bill's expertise and guidance, is part of the foundation for
such a system, and outperforms all of the traditional dust collection solutions
on the market today. Be nice to your lungs. Please see my web site to learn
more."

By the way, while I don't doubt that significant exposure to wood dust has
negative health consequences for some people, I don't think it's as universal
as you would have us all believe. With hundreds of millions of human beings
directly inhaling burning plant exhaust (tobacco smoke), with all kinds of
chemicals added, in massive quantities, often 10, 20, 30 40 times a day, it
still takes decades to kill them, and even that is a crap shoot, and sometimes
not even because of direct damage to the lungs. Non-toxic wood dust
occassionally inhaled by hobbyists is very small abuse by comparison, unless
you have a condition that is aggravated by it, like Bill Pentz.

But nice try.


  #15   Report Post  
/..
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!

By Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:43:59 GMT, "Bob S."
decided to post " Dust Collectors: A killer health hazard!" to
rec.woodworking:

Clarke,

Some friendly criticisms that may be helpful to you in the future and
hopefully you'll accept them in that tone.

snip
Bob S.



That was an excellent critique. Good work.


/ts
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