I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. Wow,
start up is almost instant.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? The switch over instructions don't
mention it. Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. Am I
missing something?

.... I had the electrician put in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop ...

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. *What
happens to the gooseneck lamp?

I wired the lamp with one hot line (110v) to the center, and connected
a neutral to the outside. ( Sorry - I don't know the precise
terminology.)

As an alternative, you can find 220v lamps on line.

On Sep 1, 7:05*am, " wrote:
.... I had the electrician put in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop ...

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. *What
happens to the gooseneck lamp?

I wired the lamp with one hot line (110v) to the center, and connected
a neutral to the outside. ( Sorry - I don't know the precise
terminology.)

In most 240 circuits there is no neutral (certainly not those used for
tools). Wiring it to ground isn't a good idea either.

As an alternative, you can find 220v lamps on line.

A much better idea.

In article a317577e-a0a0-4b1b-a433-5c114f137e77
@s6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com, says...

I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. Wow,
start up is almost instant.


Heh heh, I had that kind of experience when I converted my arc welder
from 230V to 400. No more sticky electrodes! (NB: I'm not in the US,
230V is our 'normal' voltage).

I believe 400V on a thicknesser is a nice thing to have, too. My fairly
light German over and under planer/thicknesser has just about done its
dash; and it doesn't owe me much either after 26 years. I might give
that a second thought.

-P.

"Dave - Parkville, MD" wrote in message
...
I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. Wow,
start up is almost instant.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? The switch over instructions don't
mention it. Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. Am I
missing something?

I am no electrical expert but iIwould guess it will work OK. If you have
normal residental home wiring you will actually have 2- 110 volt lines going
to your BS. Add them up and you get 220 volts. The lamp will probably
continue to have 1 single 110 volt line going to it.

Electric ovens and ranges have the same set up.

On 09/01/2009 05:25 AM, Dave - Parkville, MD wrote:
I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. Wow,
start up is almost instant.

If it makes that much difference, there was probably something wrong
with the 120V circuit or wire size. If everything was sized properly
there shouldn't really be any difference.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? The switch over instructions don't
mention it. Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. Am I
missing something?

My bandsaw has a separate plug for the lamp. If it's not mentioned
they're probably using the safety ground as a neutral which you're not
really supposed to do.

Chris

"Leon" wrote in message
news

"Dave - Parkville, MD" wrote in message
...
I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. Wow,
start up is almost instant.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? The switch over instructions don't
mention it. Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. Am I
missing something?

I am no electrical expert but iIwould guess it will work OK. If you have
normal residental home wiring you will actually have 2- 110 volt lines
going to your BS. Add them up and you get 220 volts. The lamp will
probably continue to have 1 single 110 volt line going to it.

Electric ovens and ranges have the same set up.

What he said. I'm in Baltimore and on the same lines as you, Dave.

Ed

On Sep 1, 9:11*am, "Leon" wrote:
"Dave - Parkville, MD" wrote in ...

I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. *At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). *Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. *Wow,
start up is almost instant.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. *What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? *The switch over instructions don't
mention it. *Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. *Am I
missing something?

I am no electrical *expert but iIwould guess it will work OK. *If you have
normal residental home wiring you will actually have 2- 110 volt lines going
to your BS. *Add them up and you get 220 volts. *The lamp will probably
continue to have 1 single 110 volt line going to it.

Electric ovens and ranges have the same set up.

Good point Leon. I know in a 4 wire 220 supply you can have two hots,
a neutral and a ground. The outlet and plug will only have a 3 wires
(2 hots and ground). I haven't pulled the plate off of the motor yet,
maybe there is more info there. I am a bit shocked (no pun) that
Powermatic's site doesn't have much support.

On Sep 1, 8:11*am, "Leon" wrote:
"Dave - Parkville, MD" wrote in ...

I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. *At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). *Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. *Wow,
start up is almost instant.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. *What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? *The switch over instructions don't
mention it. *Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. *Am I
missing something?

I am no electrical *expert but iIwould guess it will work OK. *If you have
normal residental home wiring you will actually have 2- 110 volt lines going
to your BS. *Add them up and you get 220 volts. *The lamp will probably
continue to have 1 single 110 volt line going to it.

It'll work but it's against code and (somewhat) unsafe. To split off
120V you need a neutral.

Electric ovens and ranges have the same set up.

Electric ovens have a neutral, or at least they do now.

In article , Chris Friesen wrote:
On 09/01/2009 05:25 AM, Dave - Parkville, MD wrote:
I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. Wow,
start up is almost instant.

If it makes that much difference, there was probably something wrong
with the 120V circuit or wire size. If everything was sized properly
there shouldn't really be any difference.

Sorry, but that's not correct. At 240V, it will draw half the current that it
did at 120V. This will provide a much faster start, even if the 120V circuit
was properly sized.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? The switch over instructions don't
mention it. Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. Am I
missing something?

My bandsaw has a separate plug for the lamp. If it's not mentioned
they're probably using the safety ground as a neutral which you're not
really supposed to do.

More than "not supposed to do". It's unsafe, because it energizes the ground
conductor, thus energizing the chassis of *everything* that's plugged into
that circuit. Remember that electricity does not "follow the path of least
resistance" as many people believe; rather, it follows all possible paths.
That includes the path that goes through the grounding conductor to the
chassis of the saw to the saw table to the hands of the operator.

wrote:
....
In most 240 circuits there is no neutral (certainly not those used for
tools). Wiring it to ground isn't a good idea either.

Well, split-voltage appliances (ranges, dryers, ...) have run that way
for approaching 100 years w/o any significant issues.

Only w/ a relatively late NEC revision did the requirement for 4-wire
service come into play.

While it strictly speaking, isn't up to current Code, for a load no
larger than the work lamp there's no issue imo.

This came up not too long ago and someone noted that between an early
manual and later the particular manufacturer of his dp had dropped the
illustration/wiring diagram for the split voltage, undoubtedly to
maintain strict Code compliance from a liability standpoint. However,
they hadn't changed the wiring iiuc...

As an alternative, you can find 220v lamps on line.

A much better idea.

Take your choice; I'd just rewire it meself...

--

wrote in message
...
On Sep 1, 8:11 am, "Leon" wrote:
"Dave - Parkville, MD" wrote in
...
OK. If you have
normal residental home wiring you will actually have 2- 110 volt lines
going
to your BS. Add them up and you get 220 volts. The lamp will probably
continue to have 1 single 110 volt line going to it.

It'll work but it's against code and (somewhat) unsafe. To split off
120V you need a neutral.

Electric ovens and ranges have the same set up.

Electric ovens have a neutral, or at least they do now.


Correct, I was just trying to point out a logical picutre. Absolutely they
have neutral lines.

On 09/01/2009 08:35 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Chris Friesen wrote:
On 09/01/2009 05:25 AM, Dave - Parkville, MD wrote:
I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. Wow,
start up is almost instant.

If it makes that much difference, there was probably something wrong
with the 120V circuit or wire size. If everything was sized properly
there shouldn't really be any difference.

Sorry, but that's not correct. At 240V, it will draw half the current that it
did at 120V. This will provide a much faster start, even if the 120V circuit
was properly sized.

I agree it will draw half the current. Assuming properly sized
conductors such that voltage loss is negligible, why would 6A at 240V
behave any differently than 12A at 120V? In both cases we're drawing 1440W.

Now it's possible that the motor itself could be designed such that it
runs more efficiently at 240V than at 120V. This isn't necessarily the
case here, but if it is it would be due to the motor design, not the
higher voltage as such.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? The switch over instructions don't
mention it. Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. Am I
missing something?

My bandsaw has a separate plug for the lamp. If it's not mentioned
they're probably using the safety ground as a neutral which you're not
really supposed to do.

More than "not supposed to do". It's unsafe, because it energizes the ground
conductor, thus energizing the chassis of *everything* that's plugged into
that circuit. Remember that electricity does not "follow the path of least
resistance" as many people believe; rather, it follows all possible paths.
That includes the path that goes through the grounding conductor to the
chassis of the saw to the saw table to the hands of the operator.

It's true that electricity will follow all possible paths, but the
higher the resistance of a particular path relative to the other paths
the less electricity will flow through it. The safety ground is a
low-resistance path, so most of the electricity will flow through it
rather than through the operator.

Older electric dryers and kitchen ranges using 3-pin plugs generally run
their control circuitry and lights at 120V using the safety ground as a
neutral. Not ideal, but it's not unusual either.

Chris

Doug Miller wrote:

Sorry, but that's not correct. At 240V, it will draw half the current that it
did at 120V. This will provide a much faster start, even if the 120V circuit
was properly sized.

Woah up a second here!

That's true if the device is built to run off of 240 Volts.

But if the internal resistance is the same as it was in the 120
device, it will draw TWICE the amperage - until it "opens".

In article , Chris Friesen wrote:
On 09/01/2009 08:35 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Chris Friesen
wrote:
On 09/01/2009 05:25 AM, Dave - Parkville, MD wrote:
I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. Wow,
start up is almost instant.

If it makes that much difference, there was probably something wrong
with the 120V circuit or wire size. If everything was sized properly
there shouldn't really be any difference.

Sorry, but that's not correct. At 240V, it will draw half the current that it

did at 120V. This will provide a much faster start, even if the 120V circuit
was properly sized.

I agree it will draw half the current. Assuming properly sized
conductors such that voltage loss is negligible, why would 6A at 240V
behave any differently than 12A at 120V? In both cases we're drawing 1440W.

Higher voltage.

Now it's possible that the motor itself could be designed such that it
runs more efficiently at 240V than at 120V. This isn't necessarily the
case here, but if it is it would be due to the motor design, not the
higher voltage as such.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? The switch over instructions don't
mention it. Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. Am I
missing something?

My bandsaw has a separate plug for the lamp. If it's not mentioned
they're probably using the safety ground as a neutral which you're not
really supposed to do.

More than "not supposed to do". It's unsafe, because it energizes the ground
conductor, thus energizing the chassis of *everything* that's plugged into
that circuit. Remember that electricity does not "follow the path of least
resistance" as many people believe; rather, it follows all possible paths.
That includes the path that goes through the grounding conductor to the
chassis of the saw to the saw table to the hands of the operator.

It's true that electricity will follow all possible paths, but the
higher the resistance of a particular path relative to the other paths
the less electricity will flow through it. The safety ground is a
low-resistance path, so most of the electricity will flow through it
rather than through the operator.

Quite true; OTOH, at 120VAC 60Hz, it takes only a few tens of milliamperes to
interfere with heart rhythms, thus *any* current flowing through the operator
is a potential hazard.

In article , cavelamb wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Sorry, but that's not correct. At 240V, it will draw half the current that it

did at 120V. This will provide a much faster start, even if the 120V circuit
was properly sized.

Woah up a second here!

That's true if the device is built to run off of 240 Volts.

But if the internal resistance is the same as it was in the 120
device, it will draw TWICE the amperage - until it "opens".

I was under the impression we were talking about reconfiguring a dual-voltage
120/240 motor from 120 to 240. I don't think anybody was suggesting operating
a 120V motor at 240V.

In article , Jack Stein wrote:
wrote:

I am no electrical expert but iIwould guess it will work OK. If you have
normal residental home wiring you will actually have 2- 110 volt lines going
to your BS. Add them up and you get 220 volts. The lamp will probably
continue to have 1 single 110 volt line going to it.

It'll work but it's against code and (somewhat) unsafe. To split off
120V you need a neutral.

Just out of dumb curiosity, does this mean if you don't split off 120,
you don't need a neutral?

Exactly so. Pure 240V circuits (in North America) don't have, or need, a
neutral.

Normally, with 120 you need 2 wires plus
ground, hot, common and ground. I don't know zip about 220 but are you
guys saying 220 can have 2 wires, both hot, plus a ground (no common),

Yes.

and you connect one of the hots to the light, and what normally would be
common or neutral to the ground?

No. It will work, but it's unsafe, and violates both the U.S. and Canadian
electrical codes.

I'm in the dark here, just asking.
Doesn't 220 always need a common ground (neutral?), just like 120?

It's 240, not 220. And no, it doesn't need a neutral. 120 needs a neutral; so,
if an appliance has both 240V and 120V loads (e.g. electric stove: 240V
heating elements, 120V control circuits; electric dryer: 240V heating
elements, 120V motor) then it needs a four wires: two hots, neutral (for the
120V) and equipment (safety) ground. Pure 240V loads (e.g. a table saw or
welder) need only three: two hots and equipment ground. No neutral.

On Sep 1, 11:03*am, Jack Stein wrote:
wrote:

It'll work but it's against code and (somewhat) unsafe. *To split off
120V you need a neutral.

Just out of dumb curiosity, does this mean if you don't split off 120,
you don't need a neutral?

220V wired to a three pole socket has HOT1, HOT2, and ground.
Wired to a four-pole socket, it has HOT1, neutral, HOT2, and ground.

While generally considered poor practice, it was normal for many years
in the US for stoves and clothes dryers to have a heavy three-prong
plug for 220V 30A, and a small (fused 10A) auxiliary 110V circuit
that ran from one hot wire to ground. Safety code had an
"appliance exception" for this, and it was done because a 4-wire 30A
circuit and socket would have been excessive and expensive.

Think about it: there's gotta be a 30A ground wire for these items,
and
it carries NO current; to add a 120V 10A convenience socket, do you
want
to add a 30A neutral wire as well?

I was under the impression we were talking about reconfiguring a dual-voltage
120/240 motor from 120 to 240. I don't think anybody was suggesting operating
a 120V motor at 240V.

Dual voltage motor - correct.

Slightly OT but relevant.

I am a no nothing in terms of electrical. I can properly wire a plug
or wall sockets but don't understand the flow, grounding, etc. Just
never studied it. But on a related topic, I have always wondered why
my planer and my big sander have a 220 line to run the big moter and a
110 line to run the feed table. I asked on of the Mfg's if there was a
way to wire the 110 from the 220 and they clearly ran and hide, saying
don't ask us.

So I ask here. Is there some way to "properly" do this? Can I put an
onboard converter or something. I would really like to eliminate the
two cords scenario because I am constantly juggling machines because
of my space restrictions and it is a big hassle with two plugs.

On Sep 1, 6:56*am, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 09/01/2009 05:25 AM, Dave - Parkville, MD wrote:

I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. *At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). *Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. *Wow,
start up is almost instant.

If it makes that much difference, there was probably something wrong
with the 120V circuit or wire size. *If everything was sized properly
there shouldn't really be any difference.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. *What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? *The switch over instructions don't
mention it. *Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. *Am I
missing something?

My bandsaw has a separate plug for the lamp. *If it's not mentioned
they're probably using the safety ground as a neutral which you're not
really supposed to do.

Chris

On Sep 1, 9:38*am, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

In most 240 circuits there is no neutral (certainly not those used for
tools). *Wiring it to ground isn't a good idea either.

Well, split-voltage appliances (ranges, dryers, ...) have run that way
for approaching 100 years w/o any significant issues.

They don't anymore, and for a reason.

Only w/ a relatively late NEC revision did the requirement for 4-wire
service come into play.

For a reason.

While it strictly speaking, isn't up to current Code, for a load no
larger than the work lamp there's no issue imo.

Your opinion isn't going to matter if someone gets hurt. It's a lot
easier to wire a separate circuit.

This came up not too long ago and someone noted that between an early
manual and later the particular manufacturer of his dp had dropped the
illustration/wiring diagram for the split voltage, undoubtedly to
maintain strict Code compliance from a liability standpoint. *However,
they hadn't changed the wiring iiuc...

Their lawyers are dumber than stumps if they think paperwork is going
to get them out of the inevitable lawsuit. Do they have a compliance
(UL, etc.) mark on them?

As an alternative, you can find 220v lamps on line.

A much better idea.

Take your choice; I'd just rewire it meself...

You're perfectly within your rights to knowingly violate codes. No
"grandfather" excuse here, either.

wrote:
On Sep 1, 9:38 am, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

In most 240 circuits there is no neutral (certainly not those used for
tools). Wiring it to ground isn't a good idea either.
Well, split-voltage appliances (ranges, dryers, ...) have run that way
for approaching 100 years w/o any significant issues.

They don't anymore, and for a reason.
....

Yes, that reason is Code. Having worked on various Standards groups
over the years, there's a definite tendency to continue to make
modifications simply for the purpose of appearing to continue to do
something and thereby justify the existence of the body.

In the 100 years before, where's the overwhelming evidence it was ever a
problem????

As I said, one can choose but it's certainly not a major actual problem
or there wouldn't have been the history of successful applications (and
lord knows how many still existing appliances????) w/o any issues.

When's the last time you _EVER_ heard of it being the cause of anything?

--

On 09/01/2009 11:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Chris Friesen wrote:

I agree it will draw half the current. Assuming properly sized
conductors such that voltage loss is negligible, why would 6A at 240V
behave any differently than 12A at 120V? In both cases we're drawing 1440W.

Higher voltage.

Huh? Voltage is just potential. You need power to do work, and the
amount of power (and thus the amount of work that can be done) is the
same in each case.

Faster startup implies that the mechanical work of spinning up the motor
is done in a shorter amount of time. This means either the motor is
more efficient at 240V or else it's drawing more power. In both cases
this would be due to motor design, not simply higher voltage.

Chris

On Sep 1, 1:03*pm, Jack Stein wrote:
wrote:
I am no electrical *expert but iIwould guess it will work OK. *If you have
normal residental home wiring you will actually have 2- 110 volt lines going
to your BS. *Add them up and you get 220 volts. *The lamp will probably
continue to have 1 single 110 volt line going to it.
It'll work but it's against code and (somewhat) unsafe. *To split off
120V you need a neutral.

Just out of dumb curiosity, does this mean if you don't split off 120,
you don't need a neutral? *Normally, with 120 you need 2 wires plus
ground, hot, common and ground. *I don't know zip about 220 but are you
guys saying 220 can have 2 wires, both hot, plus a ground (no common),
and you connect one of the hots to the light, and what normally would be
common or neutral to the ground? *

You generally need a ground but only need the neutral if you are using
the split phase (the 120V part). So, 240V will usually have three
wires (if there aren't any 120V loads) or four (with 120V loads).

I'm in the dark here, just asking.
Doesn't 220 always need a common ground (neutral?), just like 120?

Be careful, "ground" and "neutral" are different things. "Ground" is
used for safety purposes only. "Neutral" is a current carrying
conductor. If there is no current in the neutral (as is the case in a
purely 240V circuit) there isn't any need for the conductor. ;-)

wrote:

I am no electrical expert but iIwould guess it will work OK. If you have
normal residental home wiring you will actually have 2- 110 volt lines going
to your BS. Add them up and you get 220 volts. The lamp will probably
continue to have 1 single 110 volt line going to it.

It'll work but it's against code and (somewhat) unsafe. To split off
120V you need a neutral.

Just out of dumb curiosity, does this mean if you don't split off 120,
you don't need a neutral? Normally, with 120 you need 2 wires plus
ground, hot, common and ground. I don't know zip about 220 but are you
guys saying 220 can have 2 wires, both hot, plus a ground (no common),
and you connect one of the hots to the light, and what normally would be
common or neutral to the ground? I'm in the dark here, just asking.
Doesn't 220 always need a common ground (neutral?), just like 120?

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Jack Stein wrote:
....
Just out of dumb curiosity, does this mean if you don't split off 120,
you don't need a neutral? Normally, with 120 you need 2 wires plus
ground, hot, common and ground. I don't know zip about 220 but are you
guys saying 220 can have 2 wires, both hot, plus a ground (no common),
and you connect one of the hots to the light, and what normally would be
common or neutral to the ground? I'm in the dark here, just asking.
Doesn't 220 always need a common ground (neutral?), just like 120?

By NEC it now does to be Code-compliant.

For roughly 100 years, split-voltage appliances such as ranges, dryers,
etc., used (and were Code-compliant!!!!) the ground as neutral for the
110V side.

Only w/ a relatively recent Code revision was this changed to require
the 4-wire connection in all cases.

While granted it's not current Code, there are zillions of appliances
still in service and certainly a fair number of drill presses and other
machine tools wired the same way. There's absolutely no evidence they
have been a major safety issue in that time period.

Hence, while granted it's no longer within _current_ Code, there's
little real justification for that change being a big deal.

$0.02, etc., etc., ...

--

On 09/01/2009 11:55 AM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Slightly OT but relevant.

I am a no nothing in terms of electrical. I can properly wire a plug
or wall sockets but don't understand the flow, grounding, etc. Just
never studied it. But on a related topic, I have always wondered why
my planer and my big sander have a 220 line to run the big moter and a
110 line to run the feed table. I asked on of the Mfg's if there was a
way to wire the 110 from the 220 and they clearly ran and hide, saying
don't ask us.

So I ask here. Is there some way to "properly" do this? Can I put an
onboard converter or something. I would really like to eliminate the
two cords scenario because I am constantly juggling machines because
of my space restrictions and it is a big hassle with two plugs.

Sure, but it might not be worth the hassle.

To do it properly you'd need a 3-conductor plus ground cable, with a
4-prong plug. Two hots, neutral, and ground. Bring the main cord into
a junction box mounted to the tool somewhere. In the junction box split
the wires out appropriately to the two motors. The main motor then gets
driven by the two hots, while the feed table gets driven by a hot and
the neutral.

The ampacity of the conductors must be suffient to provide for both the
feed table and the main motor, so you'd probably have to increase the
conductor size. You'll likely need to add a special 4-prong receptacle,
also wired with large enough conductors.

It's probably easier to just zip-tie the two cords together so that they
don't get tangled.

Chris

SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Slightly OT but relevant.

I am a no nothing in terms of electrical. I can properly wire a plug
or wall sockets but don't understand the flow, grounding, etc. Just
never studied it. But on a related topic, I have always wondered why
my planer and my big sander have a 220 line to run the big moter and a
110 line to run the feed table. I asked on of the Mfg's if there was a
way to wire the 110 from the 220 and they clearly ran and hide, saying
don't ask us.

So I ask here. Is there some way to "properly" do this? Can I put an
onboard converter or something. I would really like to eliminate the
two cords scenario because I am constantly juggling machines because
of my space restrictions and it is a big hassle with two plugs.
....
They say "don't ask us" because of the the revised NEC Code requirements
discussed in the upthread subthread sidebar discussion.

In all likelihood previously they would have simply used the three-wire
appliance-style arrangement and all would have been happy; now they
can't do that and as Chris explains the hassle of the four-wire
connections they result was they probably decided simply the two-cord
solution was the easiest for them and still meet current Code.

As for what to do; depends in large part on whether you're in a
situation where your shop does have to be current-Code-compliant or this
is a personal shop. I gather your situation is probably the former so
you probably don't want to take the expedient way out and so the only
real choice is probably to either live with it as is or rewire to the
four-conductor supply.

How much of a pain and what you would have to do physically is dependent
on the shop wiring extant now as well as the sizes of the various motors
involved.

In short, as Chris says, you can but it may not be worth the hassles
despite the other existing hassle.

--

DLB wrote:
I was under the impression we were talking about reconfiguring a dual-voltage
120/240 motor from 120 to 240. I don't think anybody was suggesting operating
a 120V motor at 240V.

Dual voltage motor - correct.

Very good.
With the net, one never quite knows...

In article , "SonomaProducts.com" wrote:
Slightly OT but relevant.

I am a no nothing in terms of electrical. I can properly wire a plug
or wall sockets but don't understand the flow, grounding, etc. Just
never studied it. But on a related topic, I have always wondered why
my planer and my big sander have a 220 line to run the big moter and a
110 line to run the feed table. I asked on of the Mfg's if there was a
way to wire the 110 from the 220 and they clearly ran and hide, saying
don't ask us.

So I ask here. Is there some way to "properly" do this? Can I put an
onboard converter or something. I would really like to eliminate the
two cords scenario because I am constantly juggling machines because
of my space restrictions and it is a big hassle with two plugs.

Yes, there is. How easy it will be depends on whether the 240V circuit (not
"220") supplying the machine has a neutral or not. If not, you'll need a new
circuit.

Assuming that you have a four-wire 240V circuit available (two hot legs,
neutral, and ground), install a 4-conductor receptacle on that circuit, and a
4-conductor plug and cord on the machine. Connect the planer motor to the two
hot wires; connect the feed-table motor to one of the hot wires (it doesn't
matter which one) and the neutral wire. Connect the ground wire to the frame
of the unit.

In article , Chris Friesen wrote:
On 09/01/2009 11:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Chris Friesen
wrote:

I agree it will draw half the current. Assuming properly sized
conductors such that voltage loss is negligible, why would 6A at 240V
behave any differently than 12A at 120V? In both cases we're drawing 1440W.

Higher voltage.

Huh? Voltage is just potential.

Yes, that's right. That's why the motor will start more quickly with higher
voltage.

Another alternative is to add a second lamp of identical wattage
and wire them in series.


--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

In article , dpb wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:
....
Just out of dumb curiosity, does this mean if you don't split off 120,
you don't need a neutral? Normally, with 120 you need 2 wires plus
ground, hot, common and ground. I don't know zip about 220 but are you
guys saying 220 can have 2 wires, both hot, plus a ground (no common),
and you connect one of the hots to the light, and what normally would be
common or neutral to the ground? I'm in the dark here, just asking.
Doesn't 220 always need a common ground (neutral?), just like 120?

By NEC it now does to be Code-compliant.

That is incorrect. Pure 240V circuits do *not* need a neutral conductor.

For roughly 100 years, split-voltage appliances such as ranges, dryers,
etc., used (and were Code-compliant!!!!) the ground as neutral for the
110V side.

Only w/ a relatively recent Code revision was this changed to require
the 4-wire connection in all cases.

No, only in those cases where the circuit supplies both 240V and 120V loads.

Thanks guys. This is my home shop but I don't want to do the 4 wire
work so I guess I'll live with it. It just seems kind of silly. Maybe
I can find some 220 fractional hp motors to run my feed tables.

On Sep 1, 10:55*am, "SonomaProducts.com" wrote:
Slightly OT but relevant.

I am a no nothing in terms of electrical. I can properly wire a plug
or wall sockets but don't understand the flow, grounding, etc. Just
never studied it. But on a related topic, I have always wondered why
my planer and my big sander have a 220 line to run the big moter and a
110 line to run the feed table. I asked on of the Mfg's if there was a
way to wire the 110 from the 220 and they clearly ran and hide, saying
don't ask us.

So I ask here. Is there some way to "properly" do this? Can I put an
onboard converter or something. I would really like to eliminate the
two cords scenario because I am constantly juggling machines because
of my space restrictions and it is a big hassle with two plugs.

On Sep 1, 6:56*am, Chris Friesen wrote:



On 09/01/2009 05:25 AM, Dave - Parkville, MD wrote:

I just had an upgrade for my electric service to a 200 Amp panel as
part of an HVAC upgrade. *At the same time, I had the electrician put
in 2 220 circuits and 2 120 circuits for my shop (lights were already
separate). *Last night I switched over my table saw to 220. *Wow,
start up is almost instant.

If it makes that much difference, there was probably something wrong
with the 120V circuit or wire size. *If everything was sized properly
there shouldn't really be any difference.

The question: I plan to switch over my bandsaw to 220 as well. *What
happens to the gooseneck lamp? *The switch over instructions don't
mention it. *Rewiring for the motor is pretty straightfoward. *Am I
missing something?

My bandsaw has a separate plug for the lamp. *If it's not mentioned
they're probably using the safety ground as a neutral which you're not
really supposed to do.

Chris- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sep 1, 10:55*am, "SonomaProducts.com" wrote:
Slightly OT but relevant.

.... I asked on of the Mfg's if there was a
way to wire the 110 from the 220 and they clearly ran and hide, saying
don't ask us.

So I ask here. Is there some way to "properly" do this?

Two ways. First, you can use a 220/110V transformer (do the voltage
conversion the hard way). Second, you can note that the motor
may have series-connected windings for 220V, one of the
motor internal wiring taps has 110V on it when the motor is
operating. That means your light goes off when the motor is
switched off, of course...

My preference would be to use a 12V halogen worklight, and get
the 220 to 12V version of transformer for it. The 12V lamps are
more vibration-resistant, and you have to have the transformer
anyhow (no real difference in cost, though some suppliers might
not price it that way).

On Sep 1, 1:00*pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 1, 9:38 am, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

In most 240 circuits there is no neutral (certainly not those used for
tools). *Wiring it to ground isn't a good idea either.
Well, split-voltage appliances (ranges, dryers, ...) have run that way
for approaching 100 years w/o any significant issues.

They don't anymore, and for a reason.

...

Yes, that reason is Code. *Having worked on various Standards groups
over the years, there's a definite tendency to continue to make
modifications simply for the purpose of appearing to continue to do
something and thereby justify the existence of the body.

The NFPA is known to write the "code in blood". Someone was injured
or killed before the code was modified. Sure, you'll likely get away
with it but it is *NOT* smart to knowingly flaunt the electrical
code. Lawyers love it, even if you don't kill anyone.

In the 100 years before, where's the overwhelming evidence it was ever a
problem????

Depends on your definition of "overwhelming". It was never a good
idea to tie a current carrying conductor to the case of a device.
That's essentially what you're advocating.

As I said, one can choose but it's certainly not a major actual problem
or there wouldn't have been the history of successful applications (and
lord knows how many still existing appliances????) w/o any issues.

Absolute nonsense! There are many dangerous practices that are no
longer acceptable. This is one.

When's the last time you _EVER_ heard of it being the cause of anything?

When I was *nailed* off my MIL's dryer (after she'd been complaining
for months I took a look at it). Had it a safety ground it would
never have shocked anyone. The code wasn't changed for this one
instance (that they never knew about).

Just don't do it, and stop telling others to violate safety codes!
You're being irresponsible!

On Sep 1, 1:02*pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 09/01/2009 11:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Chris Friesen wrote:
I agree it will draw half the current. *Assuming properly sized
conductors such that voltage loss is negligible, why would 6A at 240V
behave any differently than 12A at 120V? *In both cases we're drawing 1440W.

Higher voltage.

Huh? *Voltage is just potential. *You need power to do work, and the
amount of power (and thus the amount of work that can be done) is the
same in each case.

Power is proportional to the *square* of the potential.

Faster startup implies that the mechanical work of spinning up the motor
is done in a shorter amount of time. *This means either the motor is
more efficient at 240V or else it's drawing more power. *In both cases
this would be due to motor design, not simply higher voltage.

Not more efficient, but does have more *power* available, all else
being the same.

On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:58:01 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

This came up not too long ago and someone noted that between an early
manual and later the particular manufacturer of his dp had dropped the
illustration/wiring diagram for the split voltage, undoubtedly to
maintain strict Code compliance from a liability standpoint. *However,
they hadn't changed the wiring iiuc...

Their lawyers are dumber than stumps if they think paperwork is going
to get them out of the inevitable lawsuit. Do they have a compliance
(UL, etc.) mark on them?

I'm not sure if "dpb" was referring to me, or not, but I found that
with my DP. Motor can be rewired for 240, but the wiring harness has
no provisions for a neutral feed. The "stock" harness connects the
work lamp across the two non-ground leads so that if the DP is plugged
into a 120v circuit, the lamp socket sees 120. And if plugged into a
240v circuit, the socket sees 240v. I'd strongly suspect the OP's band
saw is similar. He'll certainly find out if he rewires the motor for
240 and his work light (with a 120v bulb) burns very brightly for a
very short time.

Several years ago, on the manufacturer's web site, the PDF manual for
the DP, as a part of the diagram for rewiring the tool for 240, showed
the work light socket being changed to connect across one hot lead and
the EGC to provide 120 to the lamp. I went back to the site at a later
date, and that part of the diagram was no longer there. It now shows
only a configuration that connects the lamp socket across the
non-ground leads with no direct connection to the EGC. I suspect the
diagram was deleted as a result of UL requirements.

Using the EGC for an operational conductor does violate the current
NEC. But, the NEC doesn't cover anything beyond the wall plug. It's
only applicable to permanent wiring, so rewiring the DP (or band saw)
to supply 120v from a 2+G 240 circuit doesn't technically violate the
NEC unless the device is hardwired into the facility wiring. That
doesn't mean it's any more or less safe, just that it's not covered by
the NEC. That's according to my understanding of the scope of the NEC.
Even if "plug in" loads was covered by the NEC, compliance would be
impossible to enforce unless you had to pull a permit and get an
inspector out every time you plugged the vacuum cleaner into the
living room wall socket.

Using the tool's EGC for a neutral return will, as stated, energize
the grounded portions of everything connected to that circuit, as well
as everything on every circuit which has an EGC connected to the
ground bus in the panel that houses that circuit. The voltage on those
energized grounds will be the product of the resistance to ground of
the panel's ground bus times the current flowing from the ground bus
to ground. May or may not be dangerous depending on the amperage and
the resistance to ground.

Incidentally that is the same condition that exists if any device
drawing current through that panel develops a short to ground. Until
the breaker trips (assuming the leakage to ground is enough to trip
the breaker) every grounded item in, or connected to, that panel will
be energized with that amps x resistance voltage.

The use of GFI breakers addresses that condition by tripping anytime
there is a very small difference in the amperage in the two non-EGC
conductors. Otherwise the fault current would have to be on the order
of the breaker rating. A DP or BS rewired to use the EGC as neutral on
a 240v circuit would certainly trip any 240v GFI breaker that
monitored the current in the two hot wires the way a 120v GFI breaker
monitors the current in the hot and neutral wires.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 13:03:42 -0500, Jack Stein
wrote:

Doesn't 220 always need a common ground (neutral?), just like 120?

No. Speaking in the context of "normal" residential, single phase
120v/240v service, circuits that supply only 240v do not need or use
the neutral. Only the 120v circuits use the neutral wire. Multiwire
circuits that supply both 240 and 120 do need the neutral to support
the 120v loads.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:48:17 -0600, Chris Friesen
wrote:

Now it's possible that the motor itself could be designed such that it
runs more efficiently at 240V than at 120V. This isn't necessarily the
case here, but if it is it would be due to the motor design, not the
higher voltage as such.

Not likely. Typical dual voltage motors are set up such that two
windings are in series for 240v and in parallel for 120v. So
regardless of the supplied voltage, the voltage drop and current in
each of the windings is the same in either case. In other words, the
working parts of the motor don't know the difference between the motor
being connected to 240v or 120v.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA