OK, muddled through my 1987 copy of the National Electric Code and surmised
that I can hook up my wife's three electric kilns (since there is no 120
volt component in the kilns) by running only three wires. 2 hot leads and
one neutral. These three wires come from a secondary panel that has both
neutral and ground. One panel back, is the main panel where the neutral and
ground are bonded together.
Question: As long as I am doing this, I would like to drop of a fourth
outlet, should I ever need to use my welder at this location of the shop. I
have an old Miller TIG and an old Solar MIG. The leads on these machines
are 50 amp three wire. Should I be bringing over a ground wire from the
panel for the welders? What do I do with this "fourth" wire? The
receptacles and welder plugs only have three wires? Is the neutral wire
sufficient to serve as ground? etc.

BTW, I ran #4 awg to these outlets. I know it's overkill, but, found 3 - 75
ft. brand new pieces at a garage sale for only $ 4.00.

Please help with my confusion!!

Ivan Vegvary

If your welders have only three wires, I am pretty sure they are two
hots and a ground.

I expect your wifes kilns are the same way. Two hots and a ground.
Not two hots and a neutral.

To check look and see where the ground or neutral connects on the kilns
and welders. If it connects to the chassis, it is a ground. If it
connects with a path to one of the hot wires, it is a neutral.

Dan

If you have 4 wires(single phase), it is 2 hots, neutral and ground.
Neutral should NOT be used as a ground. Yes, it is theoretically the
"same", but the ground is intended to a redundancy and would present a
safety issue if it ever failed.

If you are not using 120, then there is no need for the neutral(your
4th wire).

As for overwiring, the only reason not to use big(ger) wire is expense
and hassle of handling it. On longer runs it is recommended to upsize
at least one(1) size. For what you paid, it's a no brainer to overkill
it a little.

JW

In article cnCte.1$G4.0@trnddc09, Ivan Vegvary says...

OK, muddled through my 1987 copy of the National Electric Code and surmised
that I can hook up my wife's three electric kilns (since there is no 120
volt component in the kilns) by running only three wires. 2 hot leads and
one neutral.

You should be saying "two hots and a ground" not neutral.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Note: I'm not an electrician. However, I have recently reviewed the 2002
NEC, since I am working on a major home project that involves a lot of
240V wiring. Yes, I pulled a permit, it will be inspected soon.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:43:52 +0000, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

OK, muddled through my 1987 copy of the National Electric Code and
surmised that I can hook up my wife's three electric kilns (since there
is no 120 volt component in the kilns) by running only three wires. 2
hot leads and one neutral. These three wires come from a secondary
panel that has both neutral and ground. One panel back, is the main
panel where the neutral and ground are bonded together.

It's 2 hot wires and ground, not neutral. Even though they're bonded at
the main panel, they are different. Neutral is meant to carry current in
normal use, ground is not. Ground is always bonded to the frame, neutral
is not in new wiring.

So for the kilns, you are good with three wires - two hot, one ground.

Question: As long as I am doing this, I would like to drop of a fourth
outlet, should I ever need to use my welder at this location of the
shop. I have an old Miller TIG and an old Solar MIG. The leads on
these machines are 50 amp three wire. Should I be bringing over a
ground wire from the panel for the welders? What do I do with this
"fourth" wire? The receptacles and welder plugs only have three wires?
Is the neutral wire sufficient to serve as ground? etc.




Double check that the welders don't have a 120V fan motor. If there is no
120V component, then you do not use a neutral wire. The welders must be
grounded with the GROUND wire. You cannot use the neutral for grounding.

If there are 120V components in the welders, you might need to re-wire
them so that ground and neutral are separated (4 wires - 2 hot, 1 neutral,
1 ground). As best as I understand it, there is no exception in the NEC
for old welders, only dryers and ranges on existing wiring. Since you're
running new wiring, you can't legally ground the welder frame through the
neutral wire. I could very well be wrong on this, you should check with
your local inspector.

--
Ron DeBlock N2JSO
If God had meant for Man to see the sunrise,
He would have scheduled it later in the day.

Please for your sake and the sake of others learn the difference
between "ground" and "neutral".
For simplicity look at it hs way. Neutral is normally a current
carrying conductor. Ground is like the safety chains when pulling a
trailer. Rarely used but there in case things go wrong. And if things
do go round find out why, correct the condition and start again.

The neutral is connected to the ground system at one point. This is a
safety measue to keep the system from floating more than the potential
of the line voltages. In this case 110 and 220. Single point connection
also minimizes ground loops to just one which are killers for
electronic equipment.
Bob AZ