dean wrote:

I'm looking for a way to run the deep well pump, I don't know how much
HP is it, but I think its on a 40 amp circuit at 220V. I've looked for
a 220V inverter, but I can't find anything online.

Is there ANY other way to start a well pump, without buying a large
generator?

Not practically. It's probably otoa 2 hp if it's in the 200ft range.

I'm looking for a way to run the deep well pump, I don't know how much
HP is it, but I think its on a 40 amp circuit at 220V. I've looked for
a 220V inverter, but I can't find anything online.

Is there ANY other way to start a well pump, without buying a large
generator?

According to dean :
I'm looking for a way to run the deep well pump, I don't know how much
HP is it, but I think its on a 40 amp circuit at 220V. I've looked for
a 220V inverter, but I can't find anything online.

Is there ANY other way to start a well pump, without buying a large
generator?

Short of finding a _big_ (at least 3-4 times the wattage rating of
the pump - ie: at least 2500W) 240V inverter (they _are_ available),
no.

40A at 240V is 9600W. That's a honking big inverter. You could
just about buy a new car for how much one of those costs.

[And it'd draw 800A from a 12V battery. Oooch!]

[The pump probably draws somewhere between 5 and 10A at 240V,
depending on rating. You NEED to know this before buying
an inverter or generator.]

Inverters just aren't an economical choice for driving
AC motors 1/6HP or so.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:

....
40A at 240V is 9600W. That's a honking big inverter. You could
just about buy a new car for how much one of those costs.
....

And a honkin' big pump as well as I noted elsewhere. The actual pump is
unlikely to be 2 hp if this is just a residential well. I don't have
a clue as to why it would be on a 40A circuit unless there's another
branch circuit feeding the pump itself or it is, in fact, a much larger
well.

Hi Dean,
You should be able to tell what amperage you need by just looking at
the circut breakers that are presently supporting your well pump ... I have
a 5000 watt Honda Generator that I use for camping and possible power
outage.What do you consider a LARGE generator? The one I have I can carry by
myself...it's heavy...but managable.
I also am on a well system and my pump is 220 volts, on a pair
of breakers that read 15 amps.
I bought an emergency transfer switch for any long power outages. It
will give me six 110 volt circuts or can be wired to give one 220 volt
circut with four 110 volt circuts...I bought the one seen he

http://www.emergencyswitch.com/yspecsf.html?id=16
It works great and am actually disapointed that I haven't been able to
use it yet...powers always on....!...Jim





"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm looking for a way to run the deep well pump, I don't know how much
HP is it, but I think its on a 40 amp circuit at 220V. I've looked for
a 220V inverter, but I can't find anything online.

Is there ANY other way to start a well pump, without buying a large
generator?

Well I've been reading about Low Switching Frequency inverters that can
handle large start-up loads, but looking for them online is a bit of a
nightmare.

I run my sump pump on a 1000W inverter and it runs fine on and off all
night. Not sure how many HP it is I will look tonight.

Dean

In article ,
Duane Bozarth wrote:
And a honkin' big pump as well as I noted elsewhere. The actual pump is
unlikely to be 2 hp if this is just a residential well.

Not true. We have a 3 HP well pump (750 foot deep well), and also a 3
HP pressure booster pump (required because our county requires fire
sprinklers inside the house, so our pump hast to make 50 gpm at 60
psi). One of our neighbors has a 5 HP pressure pump (larger house,
more sprinklers). Admittedly, such large pumps and such deep wells
are somwhat rare in a residential setting, but not unheard off in
areas where the aquifer is deep underground.

I don't have
a clue as to why it would be on a 40A circuit unless there's another
branch circuit feeding the pump itself or it is, in fact, a much larger
well.

That is the big question here. With a 40A circuit, it could be a 5 HP
well; starting that on any consumer-grade inverter is not possible.
There are inverters that can do it (typically used for people who live
off-grid, using wind turbines, solar cells, and big battery banks);
expect to pay 5-figure $$$ amounts for them.

But a 40A circuit could also mean that it is a really small well pump
(1 HP maybe), and a clueless electrician, or an amateur electrician
who likes to overengineer things. The really scary thing might be
that it is a 40A breaker found in the parts bin, feeding a 15A circuit
using 14 gauge wire and a 1 HP pump. I suggest checking out what the
heck is going on (size of pump, current draw, size of wiring) before
making any dangerous moves.

And "Jim & Lil" wrote:
You should be able to tell what amperage you need by just looking at
the circut breakers that are presently supporting your well pump

NO DON'T TRUST THAT. You can only trust the circuit breaker size, if
you are 100% sure that the circuit breaker was installed by a
competent electrician, using the usual rules of thumb, and not
modified since. It would be legal (but wasteful and unusual) to use a
very large circuit breaker and very large wiring for a small well
pump. It is unfortunately common for people to use oversize breakers,
for example for emergency repairs. Standard joke: The 15A breaker
kept tripping, so I put a 40A breaker in, and it didn't trip any more,
instead my house burned down.

Example: One of our neighbors just discovered that his 3 HP well (30A
240V breaker) had been wired by the previous owner using underground
feeder cable, with 12-3 cable (two 12-gauge hot conductors, neutral,
and ground). This is slightly wrong, because the neutral is useless.
And it is dangerously wrong, because a 12-gauge cable can't handle
30A, in particular not on a 1000-foot run. Fortunately, our neighbor
noticed it, not because the cable fried or the house burned down (this
setup had been used for about 20 years without problems), but because
he was digging a hole in another place, and unexpectedly tore the
cable up (it wasn't buried where one would expect it). It first
sparked a bit, then it stopped sparking, the well stopped working, and
the 30A breaker popped. Very strange, isn't it. That neighbor is
currently busy digging a new trench, laying conduit, and installing
8-gauge wire for his well.

--
The address in the header is invalid for obvious reasons. Please
reconstruct the address from the information below (look for _).
Ralph Becker-Szendy

"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm looking for a way to run the deep well pump, I don't know how much
HP is it, but I think its on a 40 amp circuit at 220V. I've looked for
a 220V inverter, but I can't find anything online.

Is there ANY other way to start a well pump, without buying a large
generator?

The inverter, batteries and associated equipment for a 40 amp circuit are
going to cost considerably more than a generator.

motor starting current is 6 times FLA or full load amps.

Best place to start is from what exactly you have, then look for a solution.
Guessing in the beginning,........ garbage in garbage out.

I was really hoping there was something built for just this purpose, to
start a motor, for example a bank of capacitors or something like that.

You not only need to start it, you need to run it too. And there is no
practical solution to run a 220V well pump off of a 120V generator.
Getting the right generator is the solution.

Ok look, I don't mean to moan, but I have a generator already, I'm not
going out to buy a 10000W monster just to start my well pump, I'm only
doing a little searching to see if there was anything other cheap and
quiet option. If not, then that's fine, I will be water-conservative
those black days and put up with it.

According to dean :
Ok look, I don't mean to moan, but I have a generator already, I'm not
going out to buy a 10000W monster just to start my well pump, I'm only
doing a little searching to see if there was anything other cheap and
quiet option. If not, then that's fine, I will be water-conservative
those black days and put up with it.

Chances are that you can run the pump on a 3500W generator, but there's
no way to know for sure without knowing the FLA of the pump. Doing that
with an inverter will cost about 4x as much (as in $2000+), and not run
very long before you have to recharge the batteries.

Have you thought of setting aside a few 5 gallon carboys of water
for those times?

That's what we do.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

dean wrote:

Ok look, I don't mean to moan, but I have a generator already, I'm not
going out to buy a 10000W monster just to start my well pump, I'm only
doing a little searching to see if there was anything other cheap and
quiet option. If not, then that's fine, I will be water-conservative
those black days and put up with it.

I'm still curious as to why a residential well pump is on a 40A circuit?

John Gilmer wrote:

"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well I've been reading about Low Switching Frequency inverters that can
handle large start-up loads, but looking for them online is a bit of a
nightmare.

It might be possible to combine an off the shelf converter with an off the
shelf Variable Frequency Drive (VFD).

The VFD has a "front end" something like the front end of a PC (computer)
power supply. It just converts the incoming AC to DC. The rest of the
electronics converts the DC back to AC (and in the PC, back to DC again.
Believe me, it really makes sense to do it that way.)


I run my sump pump on a 1000W inverter and it runs fine on and off all
night. Not sure how many HP it is I will look tonight.

You must have a very small pump.

My pump is on a 20 amp circuit and draws 11 amps.

And OP said his was on a 40A (!) circuit and didn't know how much it
draws...

"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well I've been reading about Low Switching Frequency inverters that can
handle large start-up loads, but looking for them online is a bit of a
nightmare.

It might be possible to combine an off the shelf converter with an off the
shelf Variable Frequency Drive (VFD).

The VFD has a "front end" something like the front end of a PC (computer)
power supply. It just converts the incoming AC to DC. The rest of the
electronics converts the DC back to AC (and in the PC, back to DC again.
Believe me, it really makes sense to do it that way.)



I run my sump pump on a 1000W inverter and it runs fine on and off all
night. Not sure how many HP it is I will look tonight.

You must have a very small pump.

My pump is on a 20 amp circuit and draws 11 amps.



Dean

"dean" wrote in message
ups.com...
Ok look, I don't mean to moan, but I have a generator already, I'm not
going out to buy a 10000W monster just to start my well pump, I'm only
doing a little searching to see if there was anything other cheap and
quiet option. If not, then that's fine, I will be water-conservative
those black days and put up with it.

There's probably plenty of options, but without knowing the specifics on the
pump (actual amps and volts the motor's rated for), it's fairly impossible
to help. Although it's a 220v circuit, that doesn't mean the motor itself
requires 220v. My garage is wired with a 50a 220v circuit, but I'm only
using one side for 110v gear. I wired it this way so in the future I can
easily add another circuit or run 220v gear. It's quite possible the well
pump circuit is also powering other plugs and whatnot. You really need to
check the motor itself. All the specs should be there, and it's good to
know anyway.

Anyway, inverters are probably not an option for anything much over 10 amps.
At this point they're too expensive and require most than just a couple car
batteries to run for any significant time, approaching the cost of a
generator.

If power outages are frequent enough to worry about this, and assuming you
do have a 220v 40a pump, your options are either a larger generator or
smaller 110v well pump. I doubt a smaller well pump is going to be
satisfactory, unless you want a large tank sitting around for a water
reserve, which would probably solve your problems by itself with your
current pump.

I'd keep an eye out for a used generator for sale or trade.

By the way, if your well pump is very old, you may want to consider
replacing it anyway. Newer motors run on much less power than ones built
just 10 years ago. In fact, that 40a circuit may have been put in for an
older pump, and yours may not be rated anywhere near that high, if it's been
replaced since the circuit was installed.

Pagan

On 19 Oct 2005 07:39:34 -0700, "dean" wrote:

Ok look, I don't mean to moan, but I have a generator already, I'm not
going out to buy a 10000W monster just to start my well pump, I'm only
doing a little searching to see if there was anything other cheap and
quiet option. If not, then that's fine, I will be water-conservative
those black days and put up with it.


As near as we can tell from your description, you want to
drive a 240V circut at 40A, for what, 5 minutes at a time?,
so that's 9600 VA.

APC sells a UPC that will drive that:
Symmetra PX 10kW Scalable to 40kW N+1, 208V.

It only costs about $20,000, an you can
probably cut that in half, if you hunt
around. :-)

So a battery powered system is apparently not
an option.

On the other hand, pressure tanks are cheap, depending
on how much total water you expect to need before getting
power back. A Battery of pressure tanks will store the
water, and if you run low, use the generature to run
an AIR pump to force more water out of the pressure tanks,
if you're thinking in the vicinity of 200 gallons or less.
If you're thinking more than that, then a non-pressurized
cistern, and a surface pump would probably work better.
If you want to be REALLY cool, you can get a 5000 gallon
fiberglass storage tank, and a fire hydrant.

"By the way, if your well pump is very old, you may want to consider
replacing it anyway. Newer motors run on much less power than ones
built
just 10 years ago. "

You'd have to pump a hell of a lot of water for any difference in pump
efficiency to make up the cost of a new submersible pump, including
installation.

In article ,
Duane Bozarth wrote:
I'm still curious as to why a residential well pump is on a 40A circuit?

Maybe because his well is very deep? Our well is 750 feet deep, and
has a 3HP pump (14.5A when running) on a 240V 30A circuit. I have
heard of people in the area with 1000 foot deep wells using 5HP pumps;
those would require either 40A or 50A circuits.

Or maybe because he needs lots of water? For example, in our area the
county requires a well to yield 3 GPM before they will permit
construction of a house. If the house has a lot of landscaping that
wants to be irrigated, a small holding tank, and a really good well,
then a 5HP well pump is the cheapest way to get enough water quickly.
A big set of yard sprinklers can run through 30 or 50 GPM in a hurry,
and some wells will give you that much water, but you need a serious
pump to move that water around.

Or maybe because the person who built the circuit had no clue, or had
parts for a 40A circuit sitting around, or was planning to add other
loads to the circuit later (whether legally or illegally is another
question). Or maybe the circuit was planned with addition of a larger
well pump later on in mind.

You are right: For the typical east coast / midwest aquifer (which
often needs a 30 foot driven well with a 3/4 HP jet pump), a 40A
circuit is quite ridiculous. Once you are into deep well with
submerged pumps (common in the west), the situation is different.

--
The address in the header is invalid for obvious reasons. Please
reconstruct the address from the information below (look for _).
Ralph Becker-Szendy

According to :
"By the way, if your well pump is very old, you may want to consider
replacing it anyway. Newer motors run on much less power than ones
built just 10 years ago. "

You'd have to pump a hell of a lot of water for any difference in pump
efficiency to make up the cost of a new submersible pump, including
installation.

Neither electric motors nor the laws of physics have changed much in the
past few decades. At most, it could be a few percentage points
more efficient. Absolutely NO reason to replace a decent working
pump on that basis.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to :

We have a fantastic well (30GPM draws down the level to about 90',
but of course the house pump can't pull that much...). We do irrigation
(peaking at about 13GPM) on a mere 1/2HP pump (a jet pump at that!).
Can even have showers and run the DW at the same time as the irrigation
system is running.

Or maybe because the person who built the circuit had no clue, or had
parts for a 40A circuit sitting around, or was planning to add other
loads to the circuit later (whether legally or illegally is another
question). Or maybe the circuit was planned with addition of a larger
well pump later on in mind.

Chances are that the thing was setup by a succession of idiot
"handymen" who didn't have a clue of any sort and set it up any
old way that "works".

A friend of mine discovered that his pump got its 240V from bridging
two _completely_ unrelated circuits (separate cables from different
panels!!!!), which were also feeding 120V to the oil furnace,
UV sterilizer, general lighting and outlets. That was shortly
after finding out that the metal sheath on the BX cable running
through the low headroom ceiling was live (melted the hook on
the serviceman's trouble light).

The original poster will simply have to figure out what the rating
of the pump is. If he's lucky, the control box will be accessible,
and say what the rating is. Or perhaps the previous owner left
an invoice with a model number. Or something. Otherwise, he's
going to need an ammeter to measure it (and add lots of head room).
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

wrote:

In article ,
Duane Bozarth wrote:
I'm still curious as to why a residential well pump is on a 40A circuit?

Maybe because his well is very deep? Our well is 750 feet deep, and
has a 3HP pump (14.5A when running) on a 240V 30A circuit. I have
heard of people in the area with 1000 foot deep wells using 5HP pumps;
those would require either 40A or 50A circuits.

Or maybe because he needs lots of water? For example, in our area the
county requires a well to yield 3 GPM before they will permit
construction of a house. If the house has a lot of landscaping that
wants to be irrigated, a small holding tank, and a really good well,
then a 5HP well pump is the cheapest way to get enough water quickly.
A big set of yard sprinklers can run through 30 or 50 GPM in a hurry,
and some wells will give you that much water, but you need a serious
pump to move that water around.
....

Maybe, certainly. I just asked because OP didn't say and it means a lot
to know what he actually has.

I'm certainly familiar w/ large capacity wells---the house well is 200'
(we're fortunate to be on top of the Ogalalla aquifer) and pumps 20 gpm
or so w/ which we irrigate a good sized lawn and garden area and water
up to 1500 head or so of cattle. The serious irrigation wells pump a
minimum of 600 gpm and are typically set closer to 300 ft and run a
whole 1/4-section (160 A) center pivot. They are mostly gas although
there are a lot that are diesel and some that are electric. Just
noticed the local REA co-op is setting a new pole in the feedlot's field
on the other side of the road--I presume that means they're getting
ready to put a new pump in on that quarter.

First thing you need to know is the starting current and run current of the
well pump. The amperage can be used to calculate the wattage needs of the
generator.

Second, a Coleman generator (about 5000 watts) can be had a the discount
houses for about $500. And does have a 220 volt outlet on it.

--

Christopher A. Young
Do good work.
It's longer in the short run
but shorter in the long run.
..
..


"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm looking for a way to run the deep well pump, I don't know how much
HP is it, but I think its on a 40 amp circuit at 220V. I've looked for
a 220V inverter, but I can't find anything online.

Is there ANY other way to start a well pump, without buying a large
generator?