On Sep 3, 3:39*pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 09/03/2009 10:04 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

Pretty awesome that a better quality extension cord with molded plugs is
cheaper than buying just the wire.

Just be aware that it may not be the same cable. *Often the spooled
stuff is good to 90 degrees C, while the extension cords are only good
to 60C.

For most stuff it shouldn't be a problem.

Chris

Just like it is possible for a 10ga wire to be more flexible than a
14ga wire. Depends on alloys, strand count, and insulation materials.

On Sep 3, 7:57*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
DLB wrote:
On Sep 2, 5:05 pm, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 08:46:16 -0700 (PDT), DLB

wrote:
one hot leg at 15amps vs. two hot legs
at 7.5amps each).

Just remember those "7.5amps each" are not additive. (Robatoy, don't
look ) It's the same amps in each leg - one's coming to the motor,
the other's returning it from whence it came. Just like 120v, one
line brings the amps in, the other line takes it back.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Not additive? *Now I am back to the beginning of understanding. *Isn't
the motor running at 15amps on either 120v or 240v?

No. *If it draws 15 amps on 120 it should draw 7.5 amps on 240. *On 120 15
amps come in the hot and go out the neutral, on 240 7.5 amps go in the hot
and go out the other hot.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OK, so if I could run the motor on 60volts it would draw 30amps?

On Sep 3, 4:13*pm, DLB wrote:
On Sep 3, 7:57*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:



DLB wrote:
On Sep 2, 5:05 pm, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 08:46:16 -0700 (PDT), DLB

wrote:
one hot leg at 15amps vs. two hot legs
at 7.5amps each).

Just remember those "7.5amps each" are not additive. (Robatoy, don't
look ) It's the same amps in each leg - one's coming to the motor,
the other's returning it from whence it came. Just like 120v, one
line brings the amps in, the other line takes it back.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Not additive? *Now I am back to the beginning of understanding. *Isn't
the motor running at 15amps on either 120v or 240v?

No. *If it draws 15 amps on 120 it should draw 7.5 amps on 240. *On 120 15
amps come in the hot and go out the neutral, on 240 7.5 amps go in the hot
and go out the other hot.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OK, so if I could run the motor on 60volts it would draw 30amps?

Assuming the same horsepower motor, yes. If the motor had four
windings (instead of two, like the typical dual-voltage motor) wired
in parallel instead of series, yes. Remember 1HP ~= 750W (add for
motor inefficiency).

DLB wrote:
On Sep 3, 7:57 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
DLB wrote:
On Sep 2, 5:05 pm, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 08:46:16 -0700 (PDT), DLB
wrote:
one hot leg at 15amps vs. two hot legs
at 7.5amps each).
Just remember those "7.5amps each" are not additive. (Robatoy, don't
look ) It's the same amps in each leg - one's coming to the motor,
the other's returning it from whence it came. Just like 120v, one
line brings the amps in, the other line takes it back.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
Not additive? Now I am back to the beginning of understanding. Isn't
the motor running at 15amps on either 120v or 240v?
No. If it draws 15 amps on 120 it should draw 7.5 amps on 240. On 120 15
amps come in the hot and go out the neutral, on 240 7.5 amps go in the hot
and go out the other hot.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OK, so if I could run the motor on 60volts it would draw 30amps?

According to Ohms's Law, yes.

Current = Volatge / Resistance, resistance is a constant given the same
motor.

--
Froz...

DLB wrote:
On Sep 3, 7:57 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
DLB wrote:
On Sep 2, 5:05 pm, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 08:46:16 -0700 (PDT), DLB

wrote:
one hot leg at 15amps vs. two hot legs
at 7.5amps each).

Just remember those "7.5amps each" are not additive. (Robatoy,
don't look ) It's the same amps in each leg - one's coming to
the motor, the other's returning it from whence it came. Just like
120v, one line brings the amps in, the other line takes it back.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Not additive? Now I am back to the beginning of understanding. Isn't
the motor running at 15amps on either 120v or 240v?

No. If it draws 15 amps on 120 it should draw 7.5 amps on 240. On
120 15 amps come in the hot and go out the neutral, on 240 7.5 amps
go in the hot and go out the other hot.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OK, so if I could run the motor on 60volts it would draw 30amps?

If it's designed to run on 60 volts with the same power output as it gives
on 120, yes.

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:24:16 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

Well, if we also bring relativity and quantum mechanics into this
discussion, it would be fair to say that at any given time the current
might be flowing in any direction you'd care to choose, and what's
more, we have no way of telling so!

Doesn't matter, it's all relative.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 03:47:21 -0700 (PDT), DLB
wrote:

Not additive? Now I am back to the beginning of understanding. Isn't
the motor running at 15amps on either 120v or 240v?

No.

With 120, 15 amps are running through the motor. 15 amps are coming in
one wire and 15 amps are going out through the other.

With 240, 7.5 amps are running through the motor. 7.5 amps coming in
through one wire and 7.5 amps going out through the other.

Two wires in each case. You could almost think of it like a
waterwheel, one wire pouring in the juice, one wire draining it out,
and the juice spinning the motor as it goes through.

OK, OK, I said "almost". It's just an analogy. (;-)

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

To have zero volts and some current - all it takes is phase shift.

Phase angle between voltage and current is well known.

Eli the Ice Man
Voltage leads current in inductive (E L I ) L is inductive
ICE Current leads voltage in a capacitive circuit.

So if you attach a motor to the AC lines - The voltage will
go to zero before current does......

Martin

Larry W wrote:
In article ,
Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 09:56:47 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

Well, Tom... seeing as we're into semantics now (how unusual for this
group)
...snipped...
...current amplitude crosses zero, and with zero current,
there can be no flow direction.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA



Well, if we also bring relativity and quantum mechanics into this
discussion, it would be fair to say that at any given time the current
might be flowing in any direction you'd care to choose, and what's
more, we have no way of telling so!

Plastic is likely different as well and thus the temp spec.
Martin

Chris Friesen wrote:
On 09/03/2009 10:04 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

Pretty awesome that a better quality extension cord with molded plugs is
cheaper than buying just the wire.

Just be aware that it may not be the same cable. Often the spooled
stuff is good to 90 degrees C, while the extension cords are only good
to 60C.

For most stuff it shouldn't be a problem.

Chris

Right -

I've used 1.25" diameter of copper in a plastic cover for very high
current power supplies. It was so flexible that you could wrap it
about your arm. It carried hundreds of amps at -2V so the drop had
to be low. The sensing lines were coiled around the length to drop
the inductance and respond faster. Time can kill you and have the
power supply oscillate in pulsing current.

Oh - the wire - more than 1000 strands! - and the strands were electrical
copper - very pure and soft.

Martin

Robatoy wrote:
On Sep 3, 3:39 pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 09/03/2009 10:04 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

Pretty awesome that a better quality extension cord with molded plugs is
cheaper than buying just the wire.
Just be aware that it may not be the same cable. Often the spooled
stuff is good to 90 degrees C, while the extension cords are only good
to 60C.

For most stuff it shouldn't be a problem.

Chris

Just like it is possible for a 10ga wire to be more flexible than a
14ga wire. Depends on alloys, strand count, and insulation materials.

On Sep 3, 7:27*pm, Tom Veatch wrote:
[snipped for brevity]
, one wire pouring in the juice, one wire draining it out,

But, but, but... THEN where does it go?

OK, OK, I said "almost". It's just an analogy. (;-)


Oh... okay then... *smirk*

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 17:50:54 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

But, but, but... THEN where does it go?

Well, from industrial customers, it goes back to the electric company
and into their settling ponds for waste treatment and sanitizing
before being recycled out to the residential customers.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 03:47:21 -0700 (PDT), DLB
wrote:

On Sep 2, 5:05Â*pm, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 08:46:16 -0700 (PDT), DLB

wrote:
one hot leg at 15amps vs. two hot legs
at 7.5amps each).

Just remember those "7.5amps each" are not additive. (Robatoy, don't
look ) It's the same amps in each leg - one's coming to the motor,
the other's returning it from whence it came. Just like 120v, one line
brings the amps in, the other line takes it back.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Not additive? Now I am back to the beginning of understanding. Isn't
the motor running at 15amps on either 120v or 240v?
Nope. half the current at double the voltage is the same power.
Technially, on a 220 volt dedicated circuit there is no reason there
has to be 2 fuses.. It's just that "american" 220 is center grounded
so for safety reasons each side is fused to protect againt shorts to
"ground"

On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:04:35 -0500, Jack Stein
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:24:27 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

...harder to find, stiffer, harder to work with...
Think molded cord set.

Definitely flexible.

#10 is not as flexible as #12.

Definitely available at all the big box stores.

I've never seen one at the BORG.

I bought a 12 gage extension cord at HD and that was hard to find.
Well, they had like 50 14 gage and just ONE #12. Harder for the next guy
to find:-) Also, the extension cord was cheaper than buying the wire,
let alone the wire and plugs. I needed a new cable for my table saw.
Pretty awesome that a better quality extension cord with molded plugs is
cheaper than buying just the wire.


The miracle of Chinese Labour.

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 14:13:09 -0700 (PDT), DLB
wrote:

On Sep 3, 7:57Â*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
DLB wrote:
On Sep 2, 5:05 pm, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 08:46:16 -0700 (PDT), DLB

wrote:
one hot leg at 15amps vs. two hot legs
at 7.5amps each).

Just remember those "7.5amps each" are not additive. (Robatoy, don't
look ) It's the same amps in each leg - one's coming to the motor,
the other's returning it from whence it came. Just like 120v, one
line brings the amps in, the other line takes it back.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Not additive? Â*Now I am back to the beginning of understanding. Â*Isn't
the motor running at 15amps on either 120v or 240v?

No. Â*If it draws 15 amps on 120 it should draw 7.5 amps on 240. Â*On 120 15
amps come in the hot and go out the neutral, on 240 7.5 amps go in the hot
and go out the other hot.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OK, so if I could run the motor on 60volts it would draw 30amps?
If the motor was designed to run on 60 volts, yes. If you tried to run
the 120 volt motor on 60, no.

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 13:20:19 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

On Sep 3, 3:39*pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 09/03/2009 10:04 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

Pretty awesome that a better quality extension cord with molded plugs is
cheaper than buying just the wire.

Just be aware that it may not be the same cable. *Often the spooled
stuff is good to 90 degrees C, while the extension cords are only good
to 60C.

For most stuff it shouldn't be a problem.

Chris

Just like it is possible for a 10ga wire to be more flexible than a
14ga wire. Depends on alloys, strand count, and insulation materials.

A piece of #10 wire will not be more flexible than a #12 piece of the
same type. That's the point.

On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:35:52 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 17:50:54 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

But, but, but... THEN where does it go?

Well, from industrial customers, it goes back to the electric company
and into their settling ponds for waste treatment and sanitizing
before being recycled out to the residential customers.

I don't know why they charge so much for electricity. They get it all
back.

wrote:

Technially, on a 220 volt dedicated circuit there is no reason there
has to be 2 fuses..

Only if you are talking about a 240V/3PH/60HZ delta configuration with
one phase being tapped for the 240V.

Having said that, if you pick up a ground, you will wish there are two
(2) fuses in the circuit.

It's just that "american" 220 is center grounded
so for safety reasons each side is fused to protect againt shorts to
"ground"

AKA: 3 Wire Edison. (120/240V/1PH/60HZ)

Totally different animal.

SFWIW:

For years, the automotive industry operated the electrical control
systems of factory automation machines at 120V derived from a
transformer wired to the 480V/3PH/60HZ supply power.

This 120V control power was purposely NOT grounded

What they would do is connect two (2), 120V pilot lamps in series
across the transformer with the intermediate wire between the lamps
solidly grounded.

Under normal conditions the lamps would barely glow since they were
only seeing 60V each.

If one side of the circuit picked up a ground, one of these lamps
would go out and the other would go to full illumination since it was
now seeing 120V.

This indicated which side had picked up a ground, but did not stop
production.

The repair could be preformed on scheduled down time.

Automotive electrical control panels require a screw driver to gain
access.

The only person allowed to have a screw driver was an electrician.

Thus if you made unauthorized entry into a control panel and got
knocked on you ass, you probably got fired for violating company
policy.

Lew

"Tom Veatch" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 17:50:54 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

But, but, but... THEN where does it go?

Well, from industrial customers, it goes back to the electric company
and into their settling ponds for waste treatment and sanitizing
before being recycled out to the residential customers.


So they would have you believe. How then, do you explain those huge shunts
ahead of the settling ponds?

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 09:41:44 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

So they would have you believe. How then, do you explain those huge shunts
ahead of the settling ponds?

You mean they're cutting corners down at the 'lectric plant? Maybe
that's the reason for that bad smell and smoke that came out of my
band saw motor awhile back, recycled electrons that had been shunted
around the treatment plant.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA