Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte. |
Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
Not talking about job workshops, but
working with friends on projects at home shop. Looking for some advise or experiences. My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets hurt doing something. What do you do to keep from possible legal problems associated with an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer drawn up contract with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of making sure they know how to use tools safely but what else. CC |
#2
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
On Jun 30, 12:42*am, "CC" wrote:
My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets hurt doing something. What do you do to keep from possible legal problems associated with an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer drawn up contract with them? The sad but easy answer is to refrain from having people work at your shop or on your premises. It is easy for an attorney to sue you, even if the incident was an accident. Simple questions will be asked: - WHO was it that decided this person was qualified to use the tools in question? - Did you know the risks before you let him use the XXXX saw? Did you make him aware he could lose an eye/finger? Did he UNDERSTAND completely the risks involved? - Since you were the one with the tools, the one that checked him out to work with your tools, did you supervise him? Who watched him while you went to the bathroom/got a cold drink/checked on dinner/talked to your kids, etc.? - And BTW - who died and made you the King of all power tools and their use? Did you specifically tell and demonstrate him the correct approach to using the tool that cut off his finger? ********************* It goes on and on and on. There is NO way for you to dodge liability, even it was an accident. You or your insurance will be liable, and YOU possibly face the evils of subrogation. Even in the face of it being an actual accident, if it is an expensive injury your insurance company will make all efforts to recoup their medical, legal, processing and case monitoring costs. I have been coached well in this by my insurance agent. Further by my sister that is an underwriting trainer and claims supervisor for a large company. My answer to my neighbors is sorry, can't do it. And remember this; the larger the accident, the more likely they will be to sue, just from the sheer economics of the cost of medical treatment, deductibles, time off work, etc. A legal contract simply will not protect you. Worse, if they can prove simple negligence on your part (cords not grounded correctly, no safety glasses, no gloves, no ground faults, no dust collections or masks, adequate workspace, etc. ) you could be open to civil liability as well. Robert |
#3
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
CC wrote:
Not talking about job workshops, but working with friends on projects at home shop. Looking for some advise or experiences. My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets hurt doing something. What do you do to keep from possible legal problems associated with an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer drawn up contract with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of making sure they know how to use tools safely but what else. CC Do you have good homeowner's insurance and will it cover friends using your tools in your shop? Do your friends have good medical insurance? Do you have a good lawyer, and plenty of savings to pay that lawyer if something goes wrong? If the answer to all these questions is "yes" then maybe you'll be okay even if someone gets hurt. But if somebody is injured on your property and decides to sue you, or if an insurance company hit with a claim decides to sue you, then your retirement fund is going to be depleted first by your legal bills and then perhaps by a judgment against you. It might be worth a couple of hundred bucks to talk to a lawyer about this. But I have a couple of friends who are lawyers and I bet I know what they would have to say about the idea--don't do it unless you enjoy the feeling of rolling the dice. |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
wrote:
My answer to my neighbors is sorry, can't do it. Unfortunately, Robert's comment above is about the only safe way to CYA in our litigious society. Lew |
#5
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
CC wrote:
Not talking about job workshops, but working with friends on projects at home shop. Looking for some advise or experiences. My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets hurt doing something. What do you do to keep from possible legal problems associated with an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer drawn up contract with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of making sure they know how to use tools safely but what else. Lots and lots and lots of liability insurance. Or have it be generally known that you're so poor that even if they sued you and won and you sold everything you had they wouldn't get back legal fees and court costs. |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
CC wrote:
Not talking about job workshops, but working with friends on projects at home shop. Looking for some advise or experiences. My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets hurt doing something. What do you do to keep from possible legal problems associated with an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer drawn up contract with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of making sure they know how to use tools safely but what else. It's been interesting reading the comments to this. I'm up in Canada so maybe things are different here, but I haven't heard of anyone suing a friend because they were injured in a friend's shop. It's probably happened, but I haven't heard of it. Chris |
#7
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
Good Lord! How did we do this to ourselves?
I spent 2 months in southern California during the late 1980's and couldn't understand how the locals could let gangs take over the LA area. A few years later they were doing the same thing in Wichita, Ks. But sometimes I think we have let lawyers do as much damage as gangs. RonB |
#8
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
"CC" wrote in message ... Not talking about job workshops, but working with friends on projects at home shop. Looking for some advise or experiences. My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets hurt doing something. What do you do to keep from possible legal problems associated with an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer drawn up contract with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of making sure they know how to use tools safely but what else. CC Can you even buy home woners insurance with out coverage for some one getting hurt on your property? If you don't have home owners insurance you are asking for trouble. For that matter, a guest could slip on a spill in your kitchen, or fall in the the bath tub, or trip over a garden hose, or cut himself on a broken glass, the list goes on. It would be wise to consult you insurance agent. |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
Leon wrote:
.... Can you even buy home woners insurance with out coverage for some one getting hurt on your property? If you don't have home owners insurance you are asking for trouble. If one has a mortgage, that's undoubtedly a requirement. The problem generally isn't that there is a policy; it's that the limits are too low (by far)... I don't know if the shop would qualify as the "attractive nuisance" hazard since it isn't outside tempting the neighbor kids as the pool but certainly the possibility of a potentially serious (read "expensive") accident is raised w/ power tools. The facts are that "friends" and/or even more likely w/ "just neighbors" is that the friendship or acquaintanceship will disappear if there is an accident of any consequence and the insurance companies get involved. At that point it becomes a case of what the actual legal liabilities are, friendship or no. That said, I'd not say unequivocally "no", but I would surely recommend the blanket umbrella policy of at _least_ $1M and make clear from the underwriter it covers such activity. -- |
#11
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
On Jun 30, 9:55 am, dpb wrote:
I don't know if the shop would qualify as the "attractive nuisance" hazard since it isn't outside tempting the neighbor kids as the pool but certainly the possibility of a potentially serious (read "expensive") accident is raised w/ power tools. It isn't an attractive nuisance. It is considered something far worse, which thankfully, the name escapes me. But it has to do with you holding meetings/get togethers or what ever you want to call them in unsafe or unsupervised conditions. I will personally guarantee that sight unseen I could go into anyone's shop, mine included and find a half dozen OSHA violations in just minutes, rendering them unsafe. And if you know they exist (loose rung on a ladder, poor dust ventilation, ungrounded plug, etc.) then you could be found negligent. All an attorney has to do in open court is to get you to admit that you knew you had a frayed wire, a plane with a worn out frog that lets the blade slip, a saw with a guard doesn't return to cover the blade in a crisp manner, and you are toast. If you admit to one thing, it is the same as admitting you knew all along there were unsafe conditions in your shop, thus making it a unnecessarily dangerous place. You will be questioned as well as to who trained you (and their qualifications) if someone gets hurt while using tools under your tutelage. Believe me, the "I learned it from an old fella that had been doing it for 30 years" won't count. You won't believe what a dumbass you will feel like when they ask you, "how did you learn to use this tool?" and make you state you had no "formal" training. Knowing you didn't take a class to use a circular saw, the (attorneys) will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way, the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?" As important, the question will be asked concerning your "plan" for first aid. What was it? Did you know people can get hurt using edged or powered tools? You knew that, right? OK.... then what were you prepared to do about it? Do you even have the proper sized first aid kit for 3-4 people in the shop? And the worst sin possible? To sell anything that you make in the shop/not shop. That defines it as a commercial enterprise. I think you actually have to sell a dollar amount, but it's pretty low. Can anyone here tell I have been sued more than once? The facts are that "friends" and/or even more likely w/ "just neighbors" is that the friendship or acquaintanceship will disappear if there is an accident of any consequence and the insurance companies get involved. At that point it becomes a case of what the actual legal liabilities are, friendship or no. Absolutely true. And the insurance companies don't care who was friends or not. They will take all responsibility, common sense, and well meaning efforts out of the equation. The key here is to understand that the insurance companies will take control of who pays what, who sues who, and how it all comes together completely away from the homeowner. They will do what they need to do to protect their own interests, with or without your participation or input. In some high ticket settlements, they will sue each other just to mitigate the losses they face. You will have absolutely no control whatsoever in their actions. For example, my insurance my and I were talking about this situation, and he went to a class to renew his license a few years ago. An example they studied was where the insureds were doing exactly as CC described. But in his case study, the example folks had a rule of putting in $5 a week for refreshments and to contribute a couple of bucks for the use of the facility (aka - the garage). Since they ragged each other to make sure they collected so they would have money in the kitty for cold drinks, a possible lunch, and maybe a cold beer at the end of a hot summer day, they were considered dues. Dues were defined very simply as a set amount, collected at a specified time, by a certain person that kept record of who paid and who didn't. Further, they called themselves something stupid thanks to a wife that thought the nearly weekly assembly was "cute". They were "The Termites", "Nahmies" something like that. Now we have a club. 1) It was an organized meeting ("we try to meet around 6:30 or so in the evening, either Tuesday or Thursday during the week") with 2) dues to be paid, and 3) it even had a name. I am sure they would have sealed their own fate if someone got them tee shirts. A "club" meeting in the house violated his homeowner insurance description of coverage, so the injury that brought these conditions to light was denied by his own insurance. No coverage. Everyone sued everyone in an attempt to hold each other responsible and to collect, and in the end only the attorneys were made whole. So... if anyone wants to play that game, go ahead. It's like running through the house with a kitchen knife in your hand; no big deal unless you trip. Robert |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
wrote:
will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way, the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?" Left some blood (less than many, more than most) on foreign soil, supposedly to "defend" this country and what it(once) stood for. Now, just "why" was that again ...?? -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 10/22/08 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
"Swingman" wrote in message news wrote: On Jun 30, 12:42 am, "CC" wrote: My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets hurt doing something. What do you do to keep from possible legal problems associated with an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer drawn up contract with them? The sad but easy answer is to refrain from having people work at your shop or on your premises. See!! I knew damn good and well I was correct in having sympathy for the guy, capture on News video a few years ago, chasing his lawyer around a tree and shooting him ... Noble pursuit ... -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 10/22/08 KarlC@ (the obvious) Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the system is now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build something for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about if are you going to loose everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant evening. Also shows what can happen if an accident happens to someone other than yourself and the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of your hands Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was hoping for but I wanted to know the reality of what could result. CC |
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
"RonB" wrote:
Good Lord! How did we do this to ourselves? I spent 2 months in southern California during the late 1980's and couldn't understand how the locals could let gangs take over the LA area. A few years later they were doing the same thing in Wichita, Ks. For starters, think "DRUGS". Look at what is going on right now in Mexico. Lew |
#15
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
CC wrote:
.... Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the system is now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build something for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about if are you going to lo[o]se everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant evening. Also shows what can happen if an accident happens to someone other than yourself and the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of your hands Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was hoping for but I wanted to know the reality of what could result. Well, it's just as true if you invite the neighbors over for a wienie roast and somebody were to step off the stoop so don't get _too_ uptight despite the "what if's" and "could be's". The upshot is in my estimation to live your life but _do_ be sensible. Make sure you do have sufficient coverage for liability and ensure that the coverage includes shop tools. If one were to try to be totally risk-averse there would be nothing one could do. -- |
#16
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
"CC" wrote in message ... Not talking about job workshops, but working with friends on projects at home shop. Looking for some advise or experiences. My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets hurt doing something. What do you do to keep from possible legal problems associated with an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer drawn up contract with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of making sure they know how to use tools safely but what else. CC It discourages "friends" from asking when I inform them that before using any tool they must read and demonstrate to me that they understand all the information in the owners manual. (Exam follows) G Max (who has an umbrella liability policy) |
#17
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
"dpb" wrote in message ... CC wrote: ... Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the system is now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build something for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about if are you going to lo[o]se everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant evening. Also shows what can happen if an accident happens to someone other than yourself and the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of your hands Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was hoping for but I wanted to know the reality of what could result. Well, it's just as true if you invite the neighbors over for a wienie roast and somebody were to step off the stoop so don't get _too_ uptight despite the "what if's" and "could be's". The upshot is in my estimation to live your life but _do_ be sensible. Make sure you do have sufficient coverage for liability and ensure that the coverage includes shop tools. If one were to try to be totally risk-averse there would be nothing one could do. -- I think it has to do with the individuals involved too. If I were over at a friends shop working on a project with them, and something happened to me, I wouldn't be looking to sue them or anyone else for that matter. As far as equipment goes, I wouldn't try to use a power tool that I didn't know anything about until shown or read the manual on how to use it. But some people have different ideas of how to live and interact with others. There are some that I know that I'd not want over to a weenie roast or anything else for that matter. It'd be my fault if they choked on a hotdog. Those types, you want at a distance CC |
#18
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:42:49 GMT, "CC" wrote:
Not talking about job workshops, but working with friends on projects at home shop. Looking for some advise or experiences. My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets hurt doing something. What do you do to keep from possible legal problems associated with an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer drawn up contract with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of making sure they know how to use tools safely but what else. CC When someone is making a long rip cut on the tablesaw, don't get behind him, cover his eye, and say "Guess Who?" Really, the shop is no place for distractions of any kind. One guest turned on my bandsaw (without permission) with the blade loosened. Since then I don't allow visitors. |
#19
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
CC wrote:
Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the system is now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build something for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about if are you going to loose everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant evening. Also shows what can happen if an accident happens to someone other than yourself and the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of your hands Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was hoping for but I wanted to know the reality of what could result. For the lawyers to take over, they usually have to have a living plaintiff (nudge-nudge, hint-hint). Failing that, the deceased's estate gets involved (nudge-nudge, know-what-I-mean? know-what-I-mean?). Eventually, the search for heirs will peter out. |
#20
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
HeyBub wrote:
CC wrote: Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the system is now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build something for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about if are you going to loose everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant evening. Also shows what can happen if an accident happens to someone other than yourself and the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of your hands Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was hoping for but I wanted to know the reality of what could result. For the lawyers to take over, they usually have to have a living plaintiff (nudge-nudge, hint-hint). Failing that, the deceased's estate gets involved (nudge-nudge, know-what-I-mean? know-what-I-mean?). Eventually, the search for heirs will peter out. Better make sure it isn't Kevin Bacon you let in your shop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Kevin_Bacon -- Froz... |
#21
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
As I recall, a $1M umbrella policy supplement to your homeowners insurance
is not all that expensive. Talk to your insurance agent. David Merrill "dpb" wrote in message ... snip I would surely recommend the blanket umbrella policy of at _least_ $1M and make clear from the underwriter it covers such activity. -- |
#22
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
CC wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ... CC wrote: ... Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the system is now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build something for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about if are you going to lo[o]se everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant evening. Also shows what can happen if an accident happens to someone other than yourself and the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of your hands Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was hoping for but I wanted to know the reality of what could result. Well, it's just as true if you invite the neighbors over for a wienie roast and somebody were to step off the stoop so don't get _too_ uptight despite the "what if's" and "could be's". The upshot is in my estimation to live your life but _do_ be sensible. Make sure you do have sufficient coverage for liability and ensure that the coverage includes shop tools. If one were to try to be totally risk-averse there would be nothing one could do. -- I think it has to do with the individuals involved too. If I were over at a friends shop working on a project with them, and something happened to me, I wouldn't be looking to sue them or anyone else for that matter. As far as equipment goes, I wouldn't try to use a power tool that I didn't know anything about until shown or read the manual on how to use it. But some people have different ideas of how to live and interact with others. There are some that I know that I'd not want over to a weenie roast or anything else for that matter. It'd be my fault if they choked on a hotdog. Those types, you want at a distance .... All the above is true and I've no disagreement at all. The only other comment I would make is that even someone you've known long time can become very different person in the event of serious accident and injury. I don't do other than you're outlining above, but I am pretty stiff in the "who" doesn't stay at a distance. I have the potential issues of employees, of course, but as farm rather than industrial there's a fair amount of leeway as opposed to some of the guys here who are actually running commercial shops. -- |
#23
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
David Merrill wrote:
As I recall, a $1M umbrella policy supplement to your homeowners insurance is not all that expensive. Talk to your insurance agent. .... Typically not much, agreed. I forget the exact kicker but it's in the noise as compared to the total. -- |
#24
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
CC wrote:
I think it has to do with the individuals involved too. If I were over at a friends shop working on a project with them, and something happened to me, I wouldn't be looking to sue them or anyone else for that matter. It may not be up to you...if you are seriously injured and file an insurance claim the insurance company may sue them to recover what they spent on you. Chris |
#25
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
On Jun 30, 11:38 am, Swingman wrote:
wrote: will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way, the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?" Left some blood (less than many, more than most) on foreign soil, supposedly to "defend" this country and what it(once) stood for. Now, just "why" was that again ...?? Anymore Karl, I just don't know. I don't know. I sure don't feel like the Liberty Bell rings like it used to. I don't know if I am turning into just another grouchy old ****, or if I am just fed up with just about everything because of the way things are going, and actually have been going for some time. When I see how badly our legal system has been perverted, and how it affects even the most innocent events of our lives, I am literally confounded. I feel sometimes like I understand how things work, but certainly not why. I found out a lot of the things I mentioned in this thread because I was working with someone that wanted to teach woodworking classes in his large outbuilding. He has a nice shop, but doesn't know how to use the tools, so that's where I was to come in. We thought it would be fun (possibly make a few bucks) to teach some of the older retiring fellows woodworking as a hobby, or even perhaps a second profession. I liked working with the older guys (early-mid 70s or so) in our old woodworking club, so I thought "why not?". After several meetings with his insurance provider, we decided the liabilities would be too great. After researching the whole idea completely, we let it drop. I couldn't afford the insurance, nor could he. The recommended amount of insurance was to be $1,000,000 per person, per occurance. Also, they wanted to raise the General Liability on the home to something like $5,000,000. And the policy would only be granted after a shop inspection by an OSHA approved insurance adjuster to verify that all compliance issues were in order. The inspection fee BTW from a third party inspector was about $1000, and the property had to be reinspected once a year before renewal. As one time (one job) safety compliance officer on a construction project, I knew it would be impossible to get the guys to wear the protective equipment every minute in the shop. Besides, most older guys think safety gear is for pussies. We decided to give up the idea of a casual woodworking school. I know this isn't the same thing as CC asked about originally, but you can see the distinct parallels. And apparently, there is no end to this madness. I have seen some of the new laws proposed, and they are completely absurd and work against the public good. All they are doing with most of the new laws is to create new grounds for lucrative legal actions. Gee... with almost every politician now being an attorney, I wonder how that happened.... I think at this stage of the game in the court/legal system you would be better off to be a law breaker constantly breaking the law than to face the consequences of being a law abiding citizen that breaks the law unknowingly. Robert |
#26
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
wrote in message ... On Jun 30, 11:38 am, Swingman wrote: wrote: will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way, the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?" Left some blood (less than many, more than most) on foreign soil, supposedly to "defend" this country and what it(once) stood for. Now, just "why" was that again ...?? Anymore Karl, I just don't know. I don't know. I sure don't feel like the Liberty Bell rings like it used to. I don't know if I am turning into just another grouchy old ****, or if I am just fed up with just about everything because of the way things are going, and actually have been going for some time. When I see how badly our legal system has been perverted, and how it affects even the most innocent events of our lives, I am literally confounded. I feel sometimes like I understand how things work, but certainly not why. I found out a lot of the things I mentioned in this thread because I was working with someone that wanted to teach woodworking classes in his large outbuilding. He has a nice shop, but doesn't know how to use the tools, so that's where I was to come in. We thought it would be fun (possibly make a few bucks) to teach some of the older retiring fellows woodworking as a hobby, or even perhaps a second profession. I liked working with the older guys (early-mid 70s or so) in our old woodworking club, so I thought "why not?". After several meetings with his insurance provider, we decided the liabilities would be too great. After researching the whole idea completely, we let it drop. I couldn't afford the insurance, nor could he. The recommended amount of insurance was to be $1,000,000 per person, per occurance. Also, they wanted to raise the General Liability on the home to something like $5,000,000. And the policy would only be granted after a shop inspection by an OSHA approved insurance adjuster to verify that all compliance issues were in order. The inspection fee BTW from a third party inspector was about $1000, and the property had to be reinspected once a year before renewal. As one time (one job) safety compliance officer on a construction project, I knew it would be impossible to get the guys to wear the protective equipment every minute in the shop. Besides, most older guys think safety gear is for pussies. We decided to give up the idea of a casual woodworking school. I know this isn't the same thing as CC asked about originally, but you can see the distinct parallels. And apparently, there is no end to this madness. I have seen some of the new laws proposed, and they are completely absurd and work against the public good. All they are doing with most of the new laws is to create new grounds for lucrative legal actions. Gee... with almost every politician now being an attorney, I wonder how that happened.... I think at this stage of the game in the court/legal system you would be better off to be a law breaker constantly breaking the law than to face the consequences of being a law abiding citizen that breaks the law unknowingly. Robert I agree with you about the legal system Robert, I've been around 62 years and the changes in attitudes of people and the lawyers are making things ridiculous. Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. And at the forefront with their hands in the pockets of all concerned is the lawyers. They gonna win either way. (win or loose) The system has become as greedy as wall street and the rest of the bunch that has melted down. And with everything else going to hell... there's the legal system still raking it in from both ends CC |
#27
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
On Jun 30, 10:31*pm, "CC" wrote:
They gonna win either way. (win or loose) The system has become as greedy as wall street and the rest of the bunch that has melted down. And with everything else going to hell... there's the legal system still raking it in from both ends You bet. I couldn't agree more. Robert |
#28
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
"CC" wrote in message Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. The problem isn't that everyone is ready to sue at the drop of a hat, it's because people like your McD's coffee spill woman sue and actually win. After that happens, the incentive is there for everybody to sue. When the system decides it's easier to pay off someone than spend the money on lawyers for court proceedings, than it's exactly the same has hanging out a sign that says "Free Money". |
#29
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
wrote:
On Jun 30, 11:38 am, Swingman wrote: wrote: will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way, the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?" Left some blood (less than many, more than most) on foreign soil, supposedly to "defend" this country and what it(once) stood for. Now, just "why" was that again ...?? Anymore Karl, I just don't know. I don't know. I sure don't feel like the Liberty Bell rings like it used to. I don't know if I am turning into just another grouchy old ****, or if I am just fed up with just about everything because of the way things are going, and actually have been going for some time. It's a combination of both ... change is a constant, and elders have an age based perspective that makes it all too apparent the cheese has been moved. When I see how badly our legal system has been perverted, and how it affects even the most innocent events of our lives, I am literally confounded. Gee... with almost every politician now being an attorney, I wonder how that happened.... Has been my contention for years that the product of a US law school should be prohibited from serving in the legislative branch of government. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 10/22/08 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#30
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
CC wrote:
wrote in message ... On Jun 30, 11:38 am, Swingman wrote: wrote: will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way, the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?" Left some blood (less than many, more than most) on foreign soil, supposedly to "defend" this country and what it(once) stood for. Now, just "why" was that again ...?? Anymore Karl, I just don't know. I don't know. I sure don't feel like the Liberty Bell rings like it used to. I don't know if I am turning into just another grouchy old ****, or if I am just fed up with just about everything because of the way things are going, and actually have been going for some time. When I see how badly our legal system has been perverted, and how it affects even the most innocent events of our lives, I am literally confounded. I feel sometimes like I understand how things work, but certainly not why. I found out a lot of the things I mentioned in this thread because I was working with someone that wanted to teach woodworking classes in his large outbuilding. He has a nice shop, but doesn't know how to use the tools, so that's where I was to come in. We thought it would be fun (possibly make a few bucks) to teach some of the older retiring fellows woodworking as a hobby, or even perhaps a second profession. I liked working with the older guys (early-mid 70s or so) in our old woodworking club, so I thought "why not?". After several meetings with his insurance provider, we decided the liabilities would be too great. After researching the whole idea completely, we let it drop. I couldn't afford the insurance, nor could he. The recommended amount of insurance was to be $1,000,000 per person, per occurance. Also, they wanted to raise the General Liability on the home to something like $5,000,000. And the policy would only be granted after a shop inspection by an OSHA approved insurance adjuster to verify that all compliance issues were in order. The inspection fee BTW from a third party inspector was about $1000, and the property had to be reinspected once a year before renewal. As one time (one job) safety compliance officer on a construction project, I knew it would be impossible to get the guys to wear the protective equipment every minute in the shop. Besides, most older guys think safety gear is for pussies. We decided to give up the idea of a casual woodworking school. I know this isn't the same thing as CC asked about originally, but you can see the distinct parallels. And apparently, there is no end to this madness. I have seen some of the new laws proposed, and they are completely absurd and work against the public good. All they are doing with most of the new laws is to create new grounds for lucrative legal actions. Gee... with almost every politician now being an attorney, I wonder how that happened.... I think at this stage of the game in the court/legal system you would be better off to be a law breaker constantly breaking the law than to face the consequences of being a law abiding citizen that breaks the law unknowingly. Robert I agree with you about the legal system Robert, I've been around 62 years and the changes in attitudes of people and the lawyers are making things ridiculous. Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Oh, now you've done it. Watch--legions of people are going to be jumping in here telling you that McDonalds should not have been selling "scalding hot coffee" because all the other restaurants in the area were selling lukewarm mud. It amazes me how many people think that that suit was justified. Somebody sued Bunn, one of the major manufacturers of commercial coffee makers, on the same basis a few years later. Bunn's lawyers trotted out the ANSI spec for coffee temperature, showed that their machines complied with the spec, and that was the end of that. Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. And at the forefront with their hands in the pockets of all concerned is the lawyers. They gonna win either way. (win or loose) The system has become as greedy as wall street and the rest of the bunch that has melted down. And with everything else going to hell... there's the legal system still raking it in from both ends I am told (by drunken lawyers) that the problem lies in part with an unintended consequence. Many many years ago when the civil rights movement was in its infancy, a lawyer could decide which cases he wanted to take and which ones he didn't want to take on the basis of his judgment of the merits of the case. Most lawyers at the time were members f the white establishment and judged civil rights cases as having no merit, so it was very hard for a black person who had been wronged by a white person or by "the system" (for example with "literacy tests" that an illiterate white person would be given a passing grade but a black professor of English would not--the graders knew the race of the subject) to get justice. Somewhere along the way, in order to prevent this, the ethics rules in most states were changed so that a lawyer could not refuse to accept a case on the basis of lack of merit. The unintended consequence is that when some idiot comes to you and wants to sue McDonalds because they spilled coffee on themselves, he _has_ to take it or risk disbarment. Get some liquor into a group of lawyers and you'll often hear this complaint--many of them don't like it at all, but every time any attempt has been made to change it the do-gooders have trooped into the legislatures and given their song and dance about how it would result in cases with merit also being denied. Sooner or later democracy is going to collapse under the weight of squeaky-wheelism and interlocking constituencies. |
#31
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
J. Clarke wrote:
.... I am told (by drunken lawyers) ... I think they were _too_ far in their cups... ...Somewhere along the way, ... the ethics rules in most states were changed so that a lawyer could not refuse to accept a case on the basis of lack of merit. The unintended consequence is that when some idiot comes to you and wants to sue McDonalds because they spilled coffee on themselves, he _has_ to take it or risk disbarment. Get some liquor into a group of lawyers and you'll often hear this complaint--many of them don't like it at all, but every time any attempt has been made to change it the do-gooders have trooped into the legislatures and given their song and dance about how it would result in cases with merit also being denied. Sooner or later democracy is going to collapse under the weight of squeaky-wheelism and interlocking constituencies. I really don't believe this is true at all -- lawyers routinely refuse cases and the bar ethics rules aren't created by legislative action. -- |
#32
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
Upscale wrote:
"CC" wrote in message Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. The problem isn't that everyone is ready to sue at the drop of a hat, it's because people like your McD's coffee spill woman sue and actually win. After that happens, the incentive is there for everybody to sue. When the system decides it's easier to pay off someone than spend the money on lawyers for court proceedings, than it's exactly the same has hanging out a sign that says "Free Money". I believe the largest cost of health care is the insurance for liability protection that doctors, hospitals, manufacturers, etc. must carry to protect themselves from frivolous law suits. While people like to believe medicine is an exact science, all of the testing done to show the safety and effects of a medicine is based on statistics. While the statistic can define the general trends of the medication, any conclusions on one individual based on those statistical conclusions are not valid as each person is different. If obama wants to reform health care they will place a cap on medical liability lawsuits. They also need to define what should be considered medical malpractice. An bandage left in the patient would be malpractice, a drug not responding as expected would not. |
#33
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
CC wrote:
I agree with you about the legal system Robert, I've been around 62 years and the changes in attitudes of people and the lawyers are making things ridiculous. Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. And at the forefront with their hands in the pockets of all concerned is the lawyers. They gonna win either way. (win or loose) The system has become as greedy as wall street and the rest of the bunch that has melted down. And with everything else going to hell... there's the legal system still raking it in from both ends CC You are too harsh. It's only 95% of the lawyers that give the rest of them a bad name. |
#34
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
On Jul 1, 9:46*am, Keith Nuttle wrote:
Upscale wrote: "CC" wrote in message Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. The problem isn't that everyone is ready to sue at the drop of a hat, it's because people like your McD's coffee spill woman sue and actually win. After that happens, the incentive is there for everybody to sue. When the system decides it's easier to pay off someone than spend the money on lawyers for court proceedings, than it's exactly the same has hanging out a sign that says "Free Money". I believe the largest cost of health care is the insurance for liability protection that doctors, hospitals, manufacturers, etc. must carry to protect themselves from frivolous law suits. *While people like to believe medicine is an exact science, all of the testing done to show the safety and effects of a medicine is based on statistics. *While the statistic can define the general trends of the medication, any conclusions on one individual based on those statistical conclusions are not valid as each person is different. If obama wants to reform health care they will place a cap on medical liability lawsuits. *They also need to define what should be considered medical malpractice. An bandage left in the patient would be malpractice, a drug not responding as expected would not. It won't help. Florida did that in 2003, even though insurance companies said that capping lawsuit damages won't affect their rates. http://www.medrants.com/archives/1401 (a random link gotten by Googling: florida malpractice cap, insurance). Here's another article in which an actual malpractice insurer says caps don't help: http://www.bethjanicek.com/NEWS/4-10-26CapsUseless.htm The problem with the insurance companies is that they're being hit as hard as the rest of us in economic downturns. They're answer to maintain profitability is to raise rates. -Nathan |
#35
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
CC wrote:
Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. That case has had a lot of press, but there's more to it than "coffee is hot, deal with it". The coffee was absorbed into the woman's sweatpants and held next to her skin. McD's keeps their coffee at 185 degrees, while most other places keep theirs at 140 or so. At 155 or less, the coffee would have been cool enough to avoid causing a serious burn. At the higher temperature, it caused third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body, bad enough that she needed skin grafts. Initially she tried to settle out of court for $20000, but McD's refused. Chris |
#36
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
Chris Friesen wrote:
CC wrote: Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. That case has had a lot of press, but there's more to it than "coffee is hot, deal with it". The coffee was absorbed into the woman's sweatpants and held next to her skin. McD's keeps their coffee at 185 degrees, while most other places keep theirs at 140 or so. At 155 or less, the coffee would have been cool enough to avoid causing a serious burn. At the higher temperature, it caused third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body, bad enough that she needed skin grafts. Initially she tried to settle out of court for $20000, but McD's refused. On the other hand, McDonanlds has served 10 billion cups of coffee and she is one of very few that had a problem. Typically that proportion suggests the problem lies with the user not the provider. Same as Microsoft Windows. |
#37
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
"HeyBub" wrote in message Typically that proportion suggests the problem lies with the user not the provider. Same as Microsoft Windows. **** disturber! |
#38
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
HeyBub wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote: CC wrote: Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. That case has had a lot of press, but there's more to it than "coffee is hot, deal with it". The coffee was absorbed into the woman's sweatpants and held next to her skin. McD's keeps their coffee at 185 degrees, while most other places keep theirs at 140 or so. At 155 or less, the coffee would have been cool enough to avoid causing a serious burn. At the higher temperature, it caused third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body, bad enough that she needed skin grafts. Initially she tried to settle out of court for $20000, but McD's refused. On the other hand, McDonanlds has served 10 billion cups of coffee and she is one of very few that had a problem. Typically that proportion suggests the problem lies with the user not the provider. You could turn the argument around and say that all other coffee providers serve it at a lower temperature, so the fact that McD's is the exception shows that they may be doing something unexpected. Chris |
#39
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
Chris Friesen wrote:
CC wrote: Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. That case has had a lot of press, but there's more to it than "coffee is hot, deal with it". The coffee was absorbed into the woman's sweatpants and held next to her skin. McD's keeps their coffee at 185 degrees, while most other places keep theirs at 140 or so. At 155 or less, the coffee would have been cool enough to avoid causing a serious burn. At the higher temperature, it caused third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body, bad enough that she needed skin grafts. Initially she tried to settle out of court for $20000, but McD's refused. No, the case _is_ that coffee is hot, deal with it. The ANSI standard for coffee makers requires that the holding temperature be not less than 170F, and between 170 and 205F. Most engineers would split the difference and design to hold at 187.5, allowing the largest possible margins in both directions. Similar lawsuits brought against McDonalds in the UK have failed. A lawsuit brought against Bunn-O-Matic on similar grounds failed. As for "most other places keeping theirs at 140 or so", that would, I guess, be most other places besides Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, Wendys, and Burger King, all of which require similar holding temperatures and all of which have been sued on similar grounds. |
#40
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
friends working together in shop
Chris Friesen wrote:
HeyBub wrote: Chris Friesen wrote: CC wrote: Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to screw someone for their mistakes. That case has had a lot of press, but there's more to it than "coffee is hot, deal with it". The coffee was absorbed into the woman's sweatpants and held next to her skin. McD's keeps their coffee at 185 degrees, while most other places keep theirs at 140 or so. At 155 or less, the coffee would have been cool enough to avoid causing a serious burn. At the higher temperature, it caused third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body, bad enough that she needed skin grafts. Initially she tried to settle out of court for $20000, but McD's refused. On the other hand, McDonanlds has served 10 billion cups of coffee and she is one of very few that had a problem. Typically that proportion suggests the problem lies with the user not the provider. You could turn the argument around and say that all other coffee providers serve it at a lower temperature, so the fact that McD's is the exception shows that they may be doing something unexpected. If in fact all other coffee providers served it at the lower temperature. Starbucks doesn't. Dunkin Donuts, whose coffee is generally quite well regarded, doesn't. Burger King and Wendys don't. Further, percolators and drip coffee machines and espresso machines and most of the other kinds of device that one would use at home to make coffee don't. Chris |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
new shop working out well | Woodworking Plans and Photos | |||
new shop working out well | Woodworking Plans and Photos | |||
new shop working out well | Woodworking Plans and Photos | |||
The Perils of Working For Friends | Woodworking |