Not talking about job workshops, but
working with friends on projects at home shop.
Looking for some advise or experiences.
My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets
hurt doing something. What do you do to keep
from possible legal problems associated with
an accident. How do you protect yourself
without first making a lawyer drawn up contract
with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of
making sure they know how to use tools safely
but what else.
CC

On Jun 30, 12:42*am, "CC" wrote:

My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets
hurt doing something. What do you do to keep
from possible legal problems associated with
an accident. How do you protect yourself
without first making a lawyer drawn up contract
with them?

The sad but easy answer is to refrain from having people work at your
shop or on your premises.

It is easy for an attorney to sue you, even if the incident was an
accident. Simple questions will be asked:

- WHO was it that decided this person was qualified to use the tools
in question?

- Did you know the risks before you let him use the XXXX saw? Did you
make him aware he could lose an eye/finger? Did he UNDERSTAND
completely the risks involved?

- Since you were the one with the tools, the one that checked him out
to work with your tools, did you supervise him? Who watched him while
you went to the bathroom/got a cold drink/checked on dinner/talked to
your kids, etc.?

- And BTW - who died and made you the King of all power tools and
their use? Did you specifically tell and demonstrate him the correct
approach to using the tool that cut off his finger?

*********************

It goes on and on and on. There is NO way for you to dodge liability,
even it was an accident. You or your insurance will be liable, and
YOU possibly face the evils of subrogation. Even in the face of it
being an actual accident, if it is an expensive injury your insurance
company will make all efforts to recoup their medical, legal,
processing and case monitoring costs.

I have been coached well in this by my insurance agent. Further by my
sister that is an underwriting trainer and claims supervisor for a
large company.

My answer to my neighbors is sorry, can't do it.

And remember this; the larger the accident, the more likely they will
be to sue, just from the sheer economics of the cost of medical
treatment, deductibles, time off work, etc.

A legal contract simply will not protect you. Worse, if they can
prove simple negligence on your part (cords not grounded correctly, no
safety glasses, no gloves, no ground faults, no dust collections or
masks, adequate workspace, etc. ) you could be open to civil
liability as well.

Robert

CC wrote:

Not talking about job workshops, but
working with friends on projects at home shop.
Looking for some advise or experiences.
My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets
hurt doing something. What do you do to keep
from possible legal problems associated with
an accident. How do you protect yourself
without first making a lawyer drawn up contract
with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of
making sure they know how to use tools safely
but what else.
CC

Do you have good homeowner's insurance and will it cover friends using your
tools in your shop? Do your friends have good medical insurance? Do you
have a good lawyer, and plenty of savings to pay that lawyer if something
goes wrong? If the answer to all these questions is "yes" then maybe you'll
be okay even if someone gets hurt. But if somebody is injured on your
property and decides to sue you, or if an insurance company hit with a claim
decides to sue you, then your retirement fund is going to be depleted first
by your legal bills and then perhaps by a judgment against you.

It might be worth a couple of hundred bucks to talk to a lawyer about this.
But I have a couple of friends who are lawyers and I bet I know what they
would have to say about the idea--don't do it unless you enjoy the feeling
of rolling the dice.

wrote:

My answer to my neighbors is sorry, can't do it.

Unfortunately, Robert's comment above is about the only safe way to
CYA in our litigious society.

Lew

CC wrote:
Not talking about job workshops, but
working with friends on projects at home shop.
Looking for some advise or experiences.
My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets
hurt doing something. What do you do to keep
from possible legal problems associated with
an accident. How do you protect yourself
without first making a lawyer drawn up contract
with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of
making sure they know how to use tools safely
but what else.

Lots and lots and lots of liability insurance. Or have it be generally
known that you're so poor that even if they sued you and won and you sold
everything you had they wouldn't get back legal fees and court costs.

CC wrote:
Not talking about job workshops, but
working with friends on projects at home shop.
Looking for some advise or experiences.
My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets
hurt doing something. What do you do to keep
from possible legal problems associated with
an accident. How do you protect yourself
without first making a lawyer drawn up contract
with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of
making sure they know how to use tools safely
but what else.

It's been interesting reading the comments to this. I'm up in Canada so
maybe things are different here, but I haven't heard of anyone suing a
friend because they were injured in a friend's shop. It's probably
happened, but I haven't heard of it.

Chris

Good Lord! How did we do this to ourselves?

I spent 2 months in southern California during the late 1980's and
couldn't understand how the locals could let gangs take over the LA
area. A few years later they were doing the same thing in Wichita,
Ks.

But sometimes I think we have let lawyers do as much damage as gangs.

RonB

"CC" wrote in message
...
Not talking about job workshops, but
working with friends on projects at home shop.
Looking for some advise or experiences.
My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets
hurt doing something. What do you do to keep
from possible legal problems associated with
an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer
drawn up contract with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of
making sure they know how to use tools safely
but what else.
CC

Can you even buy home woners insurance with out coverage for some one
getting hurt on your property? If you don't have home owners insurance you
are asking for trouble.
For that matter, a guest could slip on a spill in your kitchen, or fall in
the the bath tub, or trip over a garden hose, or cut himself on a broken
glass, the list goes on. It would be wise to consult you insurance agent.

Leon wrote:
....
Can you even buy home woners insurance with out coverage for some one
getting hurt on your property? If you don't have home owners insurance you
are asking for trouble.

If one has a mortgage, that's undoubtedly a requirement.

The problem generally isn't that there is a policy; it's that the limits
are too low (by far)...

I don't know if the shop would qualify as the "attractive nuisance"
hazard since it isn't outside tempting the neighbor kids as the pool but
certainly the possibility of a potentially serious (read "expensive")
accident is raised w/ power tools.

The facts are that "friends" and/or even more likely w/ "just neighbors"
is that the friendship or acquaintanceship will disappear if there is an
accident of any consequence and the insurance companies get involved.
At that point it becomes a case of what the actual legal liabilities
are, friendship or no.

That said, I'd not say unequivocally "no", but I would surely recommend
the blanket umbrella policy of at _least_ $1M and make clear from the
underwriter it covers such activity.

--

wrote:
On Jun 30, 12:42 am, "CC" wrote:

My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets
hurt doing something. What do you do to keep
from possible legal problems associated with
an accident. How do you protect yourself
without first making a lawyer drawn up contract
with them?

The sad but easy answer is to refrain from having people work at your
shop or on your premises.

It is easy for an attorney to sue you, even if the incident was an
accident. Simple questions will be asked:

- WHO was it that decided this person was qualified to use the tools
in question?

- Did you know the risks before you let him use the XXXX saw? Did you
make him aware he could lose an eye/finger? Did he UNDERSTAND
completely the risks involved?

- Since you were the one with the tools, the one that checked him out
to work with your tools, did you supervise him? Who watched him while
you went to the bathroom/got a cold drink/checked on dinner/talked to
your kids, etc.?

- And BTW - who died and made you the King of all power tools and
their use? Did you specifically tell and demonstrate him the correct
approach to using the tool that cut off his finger?

*********************

It goes on and on and on. There is NO way for you to dodge liability,
even it was an accident. You or your insurance will be liable, and
YOU possibly face the evils of subrogation. Even in the face of it
being an actual accident, if it is an expensive injury your insurance
company will make all efforts to recoup their medical, legal,
processing and case monitoring costs.

I have been coached well in this by my insurance agent. Further by my
sister that is an underwriting trainer and claims supervisor for a
large company.

My answer to my neighbors is sorry, can't do it.

And remember this; the larger the accident, the more likely they will
be to sue, just from the sheer economics of the cost of medical
treatment, deductibles, time off work, etc.

A legal contract simply will not protect you. Worse, if they can
prove simple negligence on your part (cords not grounded correctly, no
safety glasses, no gloves, no ground faults, no dust collections or
masks, adequate workspace, etc. ) you could be open to civil
liability as well.

See!! I knew damn good and well I was correct in having sympathy for the
guy, capture on News video a few years ago, chasing his lawyer around a
tree and shooting him ...

Noble pursuit ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jun 30, 9:55 am, dpb wrote:

I don't know if the shop would qualify as the "attractive nuisance"
hazard since it isn't outside tempting the neighbor kids as the pool but
certainly the possibility of a potentially serious (read "expensive")
accident is raised w/ power tools.

It isn't an attractive nuisance. It is considered something far
worse, which thankfully, the name escapes me. But it has to do with
you holding meetings/get togethers or what ever you want to call them
in unsafe or unsupervised conditions. I will personally guarantee
that sight unseen I could go into anyone's shop, mine included and
find a half dozen OSHA violations in just minutes, rendering them
unsafe. And if you know they exist (loose rung on a ladder, poor dust
ventilation, ungrounded plug, etc.) then you could be found negligent.

All an attorney has to do in open court is to get you to admit that
you knew you had a frayed wire, a plane with a worn out frog that lets
the blade slip, a saw with a guard doesn't return to cover the blade
in a crisp manner, and you are toast. If you admit to one thing, it
is the same as admitting you knew all along there were unsafe
conditions in your shop, thus making it a unnecessarily dangerous
place.

You will be questioned as well as to who trained you (and their
qualifications) if someone gets hurt while using tools under your
tutelage. Believe me, the "I learned it from an old fella that had
been doing it for 30 years" won't count. You won't believe what a
dumbass you will feel like when they ask you, "how did you learn to
use this tool?" and make you state you had no "formal" training.

Knowing you didn't take a class to use a circular saw, the (attorneys)
will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way,
the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?"

As important, the question will be asked concerning your "plan" for
first aid. What was it? Did you know people can get hurt using edged
or powered tools? You knew that, right? OK.... then what were you
prepared to do about it? Do you even have the proper sized first aid
kit for 3-4 people in the shop?

And the worst sin possible? To sell anything that you make in the
shop/not shop. That defines it as a commercial enterprise. I think
you actually have to sell a dollar amount, but it's pretty low.

Can anyone here tell I have been sued more than once?

The facts are that "friends" and/or even more likely w/ "just neighbors"
is that the friendship or acquaintanceship will disappear if there is an
accident of any consequence and the insurance companies get involved.
At that point it becomes a case of what the actual legal liabilities
are, friendship or no.

Absolutely true. And the insurance companies don't care who was
friends or not. They will take all responsibility, common sense, and
well meaning efforts out of the equation.

The key here is to understand that the insurance companies will take
control of who pays what, who sues who, and how it all comes together
completely away from the homeowner. They will do what they need to do
to protect their own interests, with or without your participation or
input. In some high ticket settlements, they will sue each other just
to mitigate the losses they face. You will have absolutely no control
whatsoever in their actions.

For example, my insurance my and I were talking about this situation,
and he went to a class to renew his license a few years ago. An
example they studied was where the insureds were doing exactly as CC
described. But in his case study, the example folks had a rule of
putting in $5 a week for refreshments and to contribute a couple of
bucks for the use of the facility (aka - the garage).

Since they ragged each other to make sure they collected so they would
have money in the kitty for cold drinks, a possible lunch, and maybe a
cold beer at the end of a hot summer day, they were considered dues.
Dues were defined very simply as a set amount, collected at a
specified time, by a certain person that kept record of who paid and
who didn't.

Further, they called themselves something stupid thanks to a wife that
thought the nearly weekly assembly was "cute". They were "The
Termites", "Nahmies" something like that.

Now we have a club. 1) It was an organized meeting ("we try to meet
around 6:30 or so in the evening, either Tuesday or Thursday during
the week") with 2) dues to be paid, and 3) it even had a name. I am
sure they would have sealed their own fate if someone got them tee
shirts.

A "club" meeting in the house violated his homeowner insurance
description of coverage, so the injury that brought these conditions
to light was denied by his own insurance. No coverage.

Everyone sued everyone in an attempt to hold each other responsible
and to collect, and in the end only the attorneys were made whole.

So... if anyone wants to play that game, go ahead. It's like running
through the house with a kitchen knife in your hand; no big deal
unless you trip.

Robert

wrote:

will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way,
the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?"

Left some blood (less than many, more than most) on foreign soil,
supposedly to "defend" this country and what it(once) stood for.

Now, just "why" was that again ...??

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
news
wrote:
On Jun 30, 12:42 am, "CC" wrote:

My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets
hurt doing something. What do you do to keep
from possible legal problems associated with
an accident. How do you protect yourself
without first making a lawyer drawn up contract
with them?

The sad but easy answer is to refrain from having people
work at your
shop or on your premises.


See!! I knew damn good and well I was correct in having
sympathy for the guy, capture on News video a few years
ago, chasing his lawyer around a tree and shooting him ...

Noble pursuit ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the
system is
now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build
something
for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about
if are you going to
loose everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant evening.
Also shows what
can happen if an accident happens to someone other than
yourself and
the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of
your hands
Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was
hoping for
but I wanted to know the reality of what could result.
CC

"RonB" wrote:

Good Lord! How did we do this to ourselves?

I spent 2 months in southern California during the late 1980's and
couldn't understand how the locals could let gangs take over the LA
area. A few years later they were doing the same thing in Wichita,
Ks.


For starters, think "DRUGS".

Look at what is going on right now in Mexico.

Lew

CC wrote:
....
Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the system is
now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build something
for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about if are you
going to lo[o]se everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant evening. Also shows
what can happen if an accident happens to someone other than yourself and
the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of your hands
Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was hoping for
but I wanted to know the reality of what could result.

Well, it's just as true if you invite the neighbors over for a wienie
roast and somebody were to step off the stoop so don't get _too_ uptight
despite the "what if's" and "could be's".

The upshot is in my estimation to live your life but _do_ be sensible.
Make sure you do have sufficient coverage for liability and ensure that
the coverage includes shop tools.

If one were to try to be totally risk-averse there would be nothing one
could do.

--

"CC" wrote in message
...
Not talking about job workshops, but
working with friends on projects at home shop.
Looking for some advise or experiences.
My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets
hurt doing something. What do you do to keep
from possible legal problems associated with
an accident. How do you protect yourself without first making a lawyer
drawn up contract with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of
making sure they know how to use tools safely
but what else.
CC

It discourages "friends" from asking when I inform them that before using
any tool they must read and demonstrate to me that they understand all the
information in the owners manual. (Exam follows) G

Max (who has an umbrella liability policy)

"dpb" wrote in message
...
CC wrote:
...
Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the
system is
now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build
something
for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry
about if are you going to lo[o]se everything you have for
a hobby or a pleasant evening. Also shows what can happen
if an accident happens to someone other than yourself and
the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out
of your hands
Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I
was hoping for
but I wanted to know the reality of what could result.

Well, it's just as true if you invite the neighbors over
for a wienie roast and somebody were to step off the stoop
so don't get _too_ uptight despite the "what if's" and
"could be's".

The upshot is in my estimation to live your life but _do_
be sensible. Make sure you do have sufficient coverage for
liability and ensure that the coverage includes shop
tools.

If one were to try to be totally risk-averse there would
be nothing one could do.

--

I think it has to do with the individuals involved too. If I
were over at a friends
shop working on a project with them, and something happened
to me, I wouldn't
be looking to sue them or anyone else for that matter. As
far as equipment goes,
I wouldn't try to use a power tool that I didn't know
anything about until shown
or read the manual on how to use it. But some people have
different ideas of
how to live and interact with others. There are some that I
know that I'd not want
over to a weenie roast or anything else for that matter.
It'd be my fault if they
choked on a hotdog. Those types, you want at a distance
CC

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:42:49 GMT, "CC" wrote:

Not talking about job workshops, but
working with friends on projects at home shop.
Looking for some advise or experiences.
My tools and shop and buddy or neighbor gets
hurt doing something. What do you do to keep
from possible legal problems associated with
an accident. How do you protect yourself
without first making a lawyer drawn up contract
with them? Or is that what you have to do. I'm aware of
making sure they know how to use tools safely
but what else.
CC


When someone is making a long rip cut on the tablesaw, don't get
behind him, cover his eye, and say "Guess Who?" Really, the shop is
no place for distractions of any kind. One guest turned on my bandsaw
(without permission) with the blade loosened. Since then I don't
allow visitors.

CC wrote:

Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the
system is
now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build
something
for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about
if are you going to
loose everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant evening.
Also shows what
can happen if an accident happens to someone other than
yourself and
the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of
your hands
Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was
hoping for
but I wanted to know the reality of what could result.

For the lawyers to take over, they usually have to have a living plaintiff
(nudge-nudge, hint-hint). Failing that, the deceased's estate gets involved
(nudge-nudge, know-what-I-mean? know-what-I-mean?). Eventually, the search
for heirs will peter out.

HeyBub wrote:
CC wrote:
Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the
system is
now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build
something
for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about
if are you going to
loose everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant evening.
Also shows what
can happen if an accident happens to someone other than
yourself and
the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of
your hands
Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was
hoping for
but I wanted to know the reality of what could result.

For the lawyers to take over, they usually have to have a living plaintiff
(nudge-nudge, hint-hint). Failing that, the deceased's estate gets involved
(nudge-nudge, know-what-I-mean? know-what-I-mean?). Eventually, the search
for heirs will peter out.

Better make sure it isn't Kevin Bacon you let in your shop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Kevin_Bacon

--
Froz...

As I recall, a $1M umbrella policy supplement to your homeowners insurance
is not all that expensive. Talk to your insurance agent.

David Merrill


"dpb" wrote in message
...
snip
I would surely recommend
the blanket umbrella policy of at _least_ $1M and make clear from the
underwriter it covers such activity.

--

CC wrote:

"dpb" wrote in message
...
CC wrote:
...
Thanks for all the responses everyone, Seems as if the system is
now set up so a couple guys cannot get together to build something
for the pleasure of doing it without having to worry about if are you
going to lo[o]se everything you have for a hobby or a pleasant
evening. Also shows what can happen if an accident happens to someone
other than yourself and
the insurance companies and lawyers take it over and out of your hands
Leaves a lot to think about if that comes up. Not what I was hoping for
but I wanted to know the reality of what could result.

Well, it's just as true if you invite the neighbors over for a wienie
roast and somebody were to step off the stoop so don't get _too_
uptight despite the "what if's" and "could be's".

The upshot is in my estimation to live your life but _do_ be sensible.
Make sure you do have sufficient coverage for liability and ensure
that the coverage includes shop tools.

If one were to try to be totally risk-averse there would be nothing
one could do.

--

I think it has to do with the individuals involved too. If I were over
at a friends
shop working on a project with them, and something happened to me, I
wouldn't
be looking to sue them or anyone else for that matter. As far as
equipment goes,
I wouldn't try to use a power tool that I didn't know anything about
until shown
or read the manual on how to use it. But some people have different
ideas of
how to live and interact with others. There are some that I know that
I'd not want
over to a weenie roast or anything else for that matter. It'd be my
fault if they
choked on a hotdog. Those types, you want at a distance
....

All the above is true and I've no disagreement at all.

The only other comment I would make is that even someone you've known
long time can become very different person in the event of serious
accident and injury.

I don't do other than you're outlining above, but I am pretty stiff in
the "who" doesn't stay at a distance.

I have the potential issues of employees, of course, but as farm rather
than industrial there's a fair amount of leeway as opposed to some of
the guys here who are actually running commercial shops.

--

David Merrill wrote:
As I recall, a $1M umbrella policy supplement to your homeowners insurance
is not all that expensive. Talk to your insurance agent.
....
Typically not much, agreed. I forget the exact kicker but it's in the
noise as compared to the total.

--

CC wrote:
I think it has to do with the individuals involved too. If I were
over at a friends shop working on a project with them, and something
happened to me, I wouldn't be looking to sue them or anyone else for
that matter.

It may not be up to you...if you are seriously injured and file an
insurance claim the insurance company may sue them to recover what they
spent on you.

Chris

On Jun 30, 11:38 am, Swingman wrote:
wrote:
will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way,
the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?"

Left some blood (less than many, more than most) on foreign soil,
supposedly to "defend" this country and what it(once) stood for.

Now, just "why" was that again ...??

Anymore Karl, I just don't know. I don't know. I sure don't feel
like the Liberty Bell rings like it used to.

I don't know if I am turning into just another grouchy old ****, or if
I am just fed up with just about everything because of the way things
are going, and actually have been going for some time.

When I see how badly our legal system has been perverted, and how it
affects even the most innocent events of our lives, I am literally
confounded.

I feel sometimes like I understand how things work, but certainly not
why.

I found out a lot of the things I mentioned in this thread because I
was working with someone that wanted to teach woodworking classes in
his large outbuilding. He has a nice shop, but doesn't know how to
use the tools, so that's where I was to come in.

We thought it would be fun (possibly make a few bucks) to teach some
of the older retiring fellows woodworking as a hobby, or even perhaps
a second profession. I liked working with the older guys (early-mid
70s or so) in our old woodworking club, so I thought "why not?".

After several meetings with his insurance provider, we decided the
liabilities would be too great. After researching the whole idea
completely, we let it drop. I couldn't afford the insurance, nor
could he. The recommended amount of insurance was to be $1,000,000
per person, per occurance. Also, they wanted to raise the General
Liability on the home to something like $5,000,000.

And the policy would only be granted after a shop inspection by an
OSHA approved insurance adjuster to verify that all compliance issues
were in order. The inspection fee BTW from a third party inspector
was about $1000, and the property had to be reinspected once a year
before renewal.

As one time (one job) safety compliance officer on a construction
project, I knew it would be impossible to get the guys to wear the
protective equipment every minute in the shop. Besides, most older
guys think safety gear is for pussies.

We decided to give up the idea of a casual woodworking school.

I know this isn't the same thing as CC asked about originally, but you
can see the distinct parallels.

And apparently, there is no end to this madness. I have seen some of
the new laws proposed, and they are completely absurd and work against
the public good. All they are doing with most of the new laws is to
create new grounds for lucrative legal actions.

Gee... with almost every politician now being an attorney, I wonder
how that happened....

I think at this stage of the game in the court/legal system you would
be better off to be a law breaker constantly breaking the law than to
face the consequences of being a law abiding citizen that breaks the
law unknowingly.

Robert

wrote in message
...
On Jun 30, 11:38 am, Swingman wrote:
wrote:
will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way,
the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?"

Left some blood (less than many, more than most) on foreign soil,
supposedly to "defend" this country and what it(once) stood for.

Now, just "why" was that again ...??

Anymore Karl, I just don't know. I don't know. I sure don't feel
like the Liberty Bell rings like it used to.

I don't know if I am turning into just another grouchy old ****, or if
I am just fed up with just about everything because of the way things
are going, and actually have been going for some time.

When I see how badly our legal system has been perverted, and how it
affects even the most innocent events of our lives, I am literally
confounded.

I feel sometimes like I understand how things work, but certainly not
why.

I found out a lot of the things I mentioned in this thread because I
was working with someone that wanted to teach woodworking classes in
his large outbuilding. He has a nice shop, but doesn't know how to
use the tools, so that's where I was to come in.

We thought it would be fun (possibly make a few bucks) to teach some
of the older retiring fellows woodworking as a hobby, or even perhaps
a second profession. I liked working with the older guys (early-mid
70s or so) in our old woodworking club, so I thought "why not?".

After several meetings with his insurance provider, we decided the
liabilities would be too great. After researching the whole idea
completely, we let it drop. I couldn't afford the insurance, nor
could he. The recommended amount of insurance was to be $1,000,000
per person, per occurance. Also, they wanted to raise the General
Liability on the home to something like $5,000,000.

And the policy would only be granted after a shop inspection by an
OSHA approved insurance adjuster to verify that all compliance issues
were in order. The inspection fee BTW from a third party inspector
was about $1000, and the property had to be reinspected once a year
before renewal.

As one time (one job) safety compliance officer on a construction
project, I knew it would be impossible to get the guys to wear the
protective equipment every minute in the shop. Besides, most older
guys think safety gear is for pussies.

We decided to give up the idea of a casual woodworking school.

I know this isn't the same thing as CC asked about originally, but you
can see the distinct parallels.

And apparently, there is no end to this madness. I have seen some of
the new laws proposed, and they are completely absurd and work against
the public good. All they are doing with most of the new laws is to
create new grounds for lucrative legal actions.

Gee... with almost every politician now being an attorney, I wonder
how that happened....

I think at this stage of the game in the court/legal system you would
be better off to be a law breaker constantly breaking the law than to
face the consequences of being a law abiding citizen that breaks the
law unknowingly.

Robert

I agree with you about the legal system Robert,
I've been around 62 years and the changes in attitudes of people
and the lawyers are making things ridiculous.
Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes. And at the forefront with their
hands in the pockets of all concerned is the lawyers. They gonna
win either way. (win or loose) The system has become as greedy
as wall street and the rest of the bunch that has melted down. And
with everything else going to hell... there's the legal system still
raking it in from both ends
CC

On Jun 30, 10:31*pm, "CC" wrote:

They gonna
win either way. (win or loose) The system has become as greedy
as wall street and the rest of the bunch that has melted down. And
with everything else going to hell... there's the legal system still
raking it in from both ends

You bet. I couldn't agree more.

Robert

"CC" wrote in message
Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes.

The problem isn't that everyone is ready to sue at the drop of a hat, it's
because people like your McD's coffee spill woman sue and actually win.
After that happens, the incentive is there for everybody to sue. When the
system decides it's easier to pay off someone than spend the money on
lawyers for court proceedings, than it's exactly the same has hanging out a
sign that says "Free Money".

wrote:
On Jun 30, 11:38 am, Swingman wrote:
wrote:
will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct way,
the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a teacher?"
Left some blood (less than many, more than most) on foreign soil,
supposedly to "defend" this country and what it(once) stood for.

Now, just "why" was that again ...??

Anymore Karl, I just don't know. I don't know. I sure don't feel
like the Liberty Bell rings like it used to.

I don't know if I am turning into just another grouchy old ****, or if
I am just fed up with just about everything because of the way things
are going, and actually have been going for some time.

It's a combination of both ... change is a constant, and elders have an
age based perspective that makes it all too apparent the cheese has been
moved.

When I see how badly our legal system has been perverted, and how it
affects even the most innocent events of our lives, I am literally
confounded.

Gee... with almost every politician now being an attorney, I wonder
how that happened....

Has been my contention for years that the product of a US law school
should be prohibited from serving in the legislative branch of government.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

CC wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Jun 30, 11:38 am, Swingman wrote:
wrote:
will ask you, "then how do you know you are using it the correct
way, the safest way? And what in the world qualified you to be a
teacher?"

Left some blood (less than many, more than most) on foreign soil,
supposedly to "defend" this country and what it(once) stood for.

Now, just "why" was that again ...??

Anymore Karl, I just don't know. I don't know. I sure don't feel
like the Liberty Bell rings like it used to.

I don't know if I am turning into just another grouchy old ****, or
if I am just fed up with just about everything because of the way
things are going, and actually have been going for some time.

When I see how badly our legal system has been perverted, and how it
affects even the most innocent events of our lives, I am literally
confounded.

I feel sometimes like I understand how things work, but certainly not
why.

I found out a lot of the things I mentioned in this thread because I
was working with someone that wanted to teach woodworking classes in
his large outbuilding. He has a nice shop, but doesn't know how to
use the tools, so that's where I was to come in.

We thought it would be fun (possibly make a few bucks) to teach some
of the older retiring fellows woodworking as a hobby, or even perhaps
a second profession. I liked working with the older guys (early-mid
70s or so) in our old woodworking club, so I thought "why not?".

After several meetings with his insurance provider, we decided the
liabilities would be too great. After researching the whole idea
completely, we let it drop. I couldn't afford the insurance, nor
could he. The recommended amount of insurance was to be $1,000,000
per person, per occurance. Also, they wanted to raise the General
Liability on the home to something like $5,000,000.

And the policy would only be granted after a shop inspection by an
OSHA approved insurance adjuster to verify that all compliance issues
were in order. The inspection fee BTW from a third party inspector
was about $1000, and the property had to be reinspected once a year
before renewal.

As one time (one job) safety compliance officer on a construction
project, I knew it would be impossible to get the guys to wear the
protective equipment every minute in the shop. Besides, most older
guys think safety gear is for pussies.

We decided to give up the idea of a casual woodworking school.

I know this isn't the same thing as CC asked about originally, but
you can see the distinct parallels.

And apparently, there is no end to this madness. I have seen some of
the new laws proposed, and they are completely absurd and work
against the public good. All they are doing with most of the new
laws is to create new grounds for lucrative legal actions.

Gee... with almost every politician now being an attorney, I wonder
how that happened....

I think at this stage of the game in the court/legal system you would
be better off to be a law breaker constantly breaking the law than to
face the consequences of being a law abiding citizen that breaks the
law unknowingly.

Robert

I agree with you about the legal system Robert,
I've been around 62 years and the changes in attitudes of people
and the lawyers are making things ridiculous.
Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself,

Oh, now you've done it. Watch--legions of people are going to be jumping in
here telling you that McDonalds should not have been selling "scalding hot
coffee" because all the other restaurants in the area were selling lukewarm
mud. It amazes me how many people think that that suit was justified.

Somebody sued Bunn, one of the major manufacturers of commercial coffee
makers, on the same basis a few years later. Bunn's lawyers trotted out the
ANSI spec for coffee temperature, showed that their machines complied with
the spec, and that was the end of that.

Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes. And at the forefront with their
hands in the pockets of all concerned is the lawyers. They gonna
win either way. (win or loose) The system has become as greedy
as wall street and the rest of the bunch that has melted down. And
with everything else going to hell... there's the legal system still
raking it in from both ends

I am told (by drunken lawyers) that the problem lies in part with an
unintended consequence. Many many years ago when the civil rights movement
was in its infancy, a lawyer could decide which cases he wanted to take and
which ones he didn't want to take on the basis of his judgment of the merits
of the case. Most lawyers at the time were members f the white
establishment and judged civil rights cases as having no merit, so it was
very hard for a black person who had been wronged by a white person or by
"the system" (for example with "literacy tests" that an illiterate white
person would be given a passing grade but a black professor of English would
not--the graders knew the race of the subject) to get justice. Somewhere
along the way, in order to prevent this, the ethics rules in most states
were changed so that a lawyer could not refuse to accept a case on the basis
of lack of merit. The unintended consequence is that when some idiot comes
to you and wants to sue McDonalds because they spilled coffee on themselves,
he _has_ to take it or risk disbarment. Get some liquor into a group of
lawyers and you'll often hear this complaint--many of them don't like it at
all, but every time any attempt has been made to change it the do-gooders
have trooped into the legislatures and given their song and dance about how
it would result in cases with merit also being denied. Sooner or later
democracy is going to collapse under the weight of squeaky-wheelism and
interlocking constituencies.

J. Clarke wrote:
....
I am told (by drunken lawyers) ...

I think they were _too_ far in their cups...

...Somewhere along the way, ... the ethics rules in most states
were changed so that a lawyer could not refuse to accept a case on the basis
of lack of merit. The unintended consequence is that when some idiot comes
to you and wants to sue McDonalds because they spilled coffee on themselves,
he _has_ to take it or risk disbarment. Get some liquor into a group of
lawyers and you'll often hear this complaint--many of them don't like it at
all, but every time any attempt has been made to change it the do-gooders
have trooped into the legislatures and given their song and dance about how
it would result in cases with merit also being denied. Sooner or later
democracy is going to collapse under the weight of squeaky-wheelism and
interlocking constituencies.

I really don't believe this is true at all -- lawyers routinely refuse
cases and the bar ethics rules aren't created by legislative action.

--

Upscale wrote:
"CC" wrote in message
Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes.

The problem isn't that everyone is ready to sue at the drop of a hat, it's
because people like your McD's coffee spill woman sue and actually win.
After that happens, the incentive is there for everybody to sue. When the
system decides it's easier to pay off someone than spend the money on
lawyers for court proceedings, than it's exactly the same has hanging out a
sign that says "Free Money".



I believe the largest cost of health care is the insurance for liability
protection that doctors, hospitals, manufacturers, etc. must carry to
protect themselves from frivolous law suits. While people like to
believe medicine is an exact science, all of the testing done to show
the safety and effects of a medicine is based on statistics. While the
statistic can define the general trends of the medication, any
conclusions on one individual based on those statistical conclusions are
not valid as each person is different.

If obama wants to reform health care they will place a cap on medical
liability lawsuits. They also need to define what should be considered
medical malpractice. An bandage left in the patient would be
malpractice, a drug not responding as expected would not.

CC wrote:

I agree with you about the legal system Robert,
I've been around 62 years and the changes in attitudes of people
and the lawyers are making things ridiculous.
Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes. And at the forefront with their
hands in the pockets of all concerned is the lawyers. They gonna
win either way. (win or loose) The system has become as greedy
as wall street and the rest of the bunch that has melted down. And
with everything else going to hell... there's the legal system still
raking it in from both ends
CC

You are too harsh. It's only 95% of the lawyers that give the rest of them a
bad name.

On Jul 1, 9:46*am, Keith Nuttle wrote:
Upscale wrote:
"CC" wrote in message
Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes.

The problem isn't that everyone is ready to sue at the drop of a hat, it's
because people like your McD's coffee spill woman sue and actually win.
After that happens, the incentive is there for everybody to sue. When the
system decides it's easier to pay off someone than spend the money on
lawyers for court proceedings, than it's exactly the same has hanging out a
sign that says "Free Money".

I believe the largest cost of health care is the insurance for liability
protection that doctors, hospitals, manufacturers, etc. must carry to
protect themselves from frivolous law suits. *While people like to
believe medicine is an exact science, all of the testing done to show
the safety and effects of a medicine is based on statistics. *While the
statistic can define the general trends of the medication, any
conclusions on one individual based on those statistical conclusions are
not valid as each person is different.

If obama wants to reform health care they will place a cap on medical
liability lawsuits. *They also need to define what should be considered
medical malpractice. An bandage left in the patient would be
malpractice, a drug not responding as expected would not.

It won't help. Florida did that in 2003, even though insurance
companies said that capping lawsuit damages won't affect their rates.
http://www.medrants.com/archives/1401 (a random link gotten by
Googling: florida malpractice cap, insurance).

Here's another article in which an actual malpractice insurer says
caps don't help:
http://www.bethjanicek.com/NEWS/4-10-26CapsUseless.htm

The problem with the insurance companies is that they're being hit as
hard as the rest of us in economic downturns. They're answer to
maintain profitability is to raise rates.

-Nathan

CC wrote:

Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes.

That case has had a lot of press, but there's more to it than "coffee is
hot, deal with it".

The coffee was absorbed into the woman's sweatpants and held next to her
skin. McD's keeps their coffee at 185 degrees, while most other places
keep theirs at 140 or so. At 155 or less, the coffee would have been
cool enough to avoid causing a serious burn. At the higher temperature,
it caused third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body, bad enough that
she needed skin grafts. Initially she tried to settle out of court for
$20000, but McD's refused.

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:
CC wrote:

Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes.

That case has had a lot of press, but there's more to it than "coffee
is hot, deal with it".

The coffee was absorbed into the woman's sweatpants and held next to
her skin. McD's keeps their coffee at 185 degrees, while most other
places keep theirs at 140 or so. At 155 or less, the coffee would
have been cool enough to avoid causing a serious burn. At the higher
temperature, it caused third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body,
bad enough that she needed skin grafts. Initially she tried to
settle out of court for $20000, but McD's refused.


On the other hand, McDonanlds has served 10 billion cups of coffee and she
is one of very few that had a problem. Typically that proportion suggests
the problem lies with the user not the provider.

Same as Microsoft Windows.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
Typically that proportion suggests
the problem lies with the user not the provider.

Same as Microsoft Windows.

**** disturber!

HeyBub wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
CC wrote:

Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes.
That case has had a lot of press, but there's more to it than "coffee
is hot, deal with it".

The coffee was absorbed into the woman's sweatpants and held next to
her skin. McD's keeps their coffee at 185 degrees, while most other
places keep theirs at 140 or so. At 155 or less, the coffee would
have been cool enough to avoid causing a serious burn. At the higher
temperature, it caused third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body,
bad enough that she needed skin grafts. Initially she tried to
settle out of court for $20000, but McD's refused.


On the other hand, McDonanlds has served 10 billion cups of coffee and she
is one of very few that had a problem. Typically that proportion suggests
the problem lies with the user not the provider.

You could turn the argument around and say that all other coffee
providers serve it at a lower temperature, so the fact that McD's is the
exception shows that they may be doing something unexpected.

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:
CC wrote:

Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes.

That case has had a lot of press, but there's more to it than "coffee
is hot, deal with it".

The coffee was absorbed into the woman's sweatpants and held next to
her skin. McD's keeps their coffee at 185 degrees, while most other
places keep theirs at 140 or so. At 155 or less, the coffee would
have been cool enough to avoid causing a serious burn. At the higher
temperature, it caused third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body,
bad enough that she needed skin grafts. Initially she tried to
settle out of court for $20000, but McD's refused.

No, the case _is_ that coffee is hot, deal with it.

The ANSI standard for coffee makers requires that the holding temperature be
not less than 170F, and between 170 and 205F. Most engineers would split
the difference and design to hold at 187.5, allowing the largest possible
margins in both directions.

Similar lawsuits brought against McDonalds in the UK have failed. A lawsuit
brought against Bunn-O-Matic on similar grounds failed. As for "most
other places keeping theirs at 140 or so", that would, I guess, be most
other places besides Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, Wendys, and Burger King, all
of which require similar holding temperatures and all of which have been
sued on similar grounds.

Chris Friesen wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
CC wrote:

Makes me think of the woman suing McD's because she spilled
hot coffee on herself, Seems it is getting so everyone wants to
screw someone for their mistakes.
That case has had a lot of press, but there's more to it than
"coffee is hot, deal with it".

The coffee was absorbed into the woman's sweatpants and held next to
her skin. McD's keeps their coffee at 185 degrees, while most other
places keep theirs at 140 or so. At 155 or less, the coffee would
have been cool enough to avoid causing a serious burn. At the
higher temperature, it caused third-degree burns over 6 percent of
her body, bad enough that she needed skin grafts. Initially she
tried to settle out of court for $20000, but McD's refused.


On the other hand, McDonanlds has served 10 billion cups of coffee
and she is one of very few that had a problem. Typically that
proportion suggests the problem lies with the user not the provider.

You could turn the argument around and say that all other coffee
providers serve it at a lower temperature, so the fact that McD's is
the exception shows that they may be doing something unexpected.

If in fact all other coffee providers served it at the lower temperature.
Starbucks doesn't. Dunkin Donuts, whose coffee is generally quite well
regarded, doesn't. Burger King and Wendys don't. Further, percolators and
drip coffee machines and espresso machines and most of the other kinds of
device that one would use at home to make coffee don't.

Chris