Bored Borg wrote in
.com:

In my reading round. I discovered the notion of carrying the walls
down with a flared "skirt" of concrete sheeting, lined with rigid foam
and buried a foot or so into the ground. This is the new thinking in
Scandanavian building, apparently.

The skirting traps geothermal heat and directs it upwards, and all
things being equal this raises the cold weather building temperature
by around 16 degrees.. (presume F, not C)

That's a pretty compelling argument, don'tya think?

I suspect that wooden floors would be better than concrete, but that
might just be "common sense" kicking in where it shouldn't (like
"heavier objects obviously hit the ground before lighter objects" type
common sense,)


Would you happen to have an internet site or two to share with us? My
sister's garage is due for replacement next summer, and free heat is
always welcome inside a building.

Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On Nov 23, 4:59�pm, Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
Bored Borg wrote eb.com:





In my reading round. I discovered the notion of carrying the walls
down with a flared "skirt" of concrete sheeting, lined with rigid foam
and buried a foot or so into the ground. This is the new thinking in
Scandanavian building, apparently.

The skirting traps geothermal heat and directs it upwards, and all
things being equal this raises the cold weather building temperature
by around 16 degrees.. (presume F, not C)

That's a pretty compelling argument, don'tya think?

I suspect that wooden floors would be better than concrete, but that
might just be "common sense" kicking in where it shouldn't (like
"heavier objects obviously hit the ground before lighter objects" type
common sense,)

Would you happen to have an internet site or two to share with us? �My
sister's garage is due for replacement next summer, and free heat is
always welcome inside a building.

Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I wold be interested in that information as well. Please email me at

Most stuff on the web is concerned with active systems - digging bore-holes
and pumping ground heat up into buildings. There are brief mentions here and
there of insulation for passive gains, but I'm finding them hard to track
down as it's stuff I came across while word-association surfing and didn't
bookmark anything.
However...

The main reference was from the book

Sheds: The Do-It-Yourself Guide for Backyard Builders (Paperback)
by David Stiles (Author), Jeanie Stiles (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/Sheds-Do-Yourself-Backyard-
Builders/dp/1554072247/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227509805&sr= 8-3

but it was only a paragraph or two and a line drawing

33*new*from*$9.96 -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-
listing/1554072247/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

My scanner's dead, but I can copy out the relevant words if that's be
helpful - ???


More 'techie" geothermal heating - requiring drilling and pumps - is
mentioned briefly on:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/climate/adaptat...l_energy.shtml
http://www.tnddrilling.co.uk/

and wikipedia has some stuff.


I found this rather interesting, though it's pretty involved:
http://www.thenaturalhome.com/earthtube.htm

There's a mention
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9...+an+Afford ab
le+House+By+Fernando+Pages#PPP8,M1

- scroll to page 57

I hope that's useful. Sorry I haven't got a simple reference or all-in-one
page for you. I think this is a case of hitting on the right google-words
serendipitously. and so far I've not been very successful.

It seems you can install a full heating system which would run at about 1/3
cost of a conventional system but the installation costs would be high and
the return period similarly high.

The compromise effort would be to firstly "trap" a building's warm footprint
and secondly, to pull ventilation in through ground or sun-warmed pipes.

My simpler take on this would be to stick a maze of black-painted pipe behind
a sheet of glass (in the sun) and pull all your shop's air in through that
maze, OR, if you have enough sunlight, knock up a solar panel from a radiator
(black,) under glass, feeding a heat exchanger (coil of copper tube)
surrounding your vent intake.

My father has run a water pre-heater panel for about 30 years. It won't get
water _hot_ but it does prevent it from getting cold. Even in England Lat 52
ish, it helps, most of the year round. These things do work; not
spectacularly, but effectively

Ed,

No, not intentionally.

But I won't build a hazard to myself or others.

Old Guy



On Nov 22, 9:53*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Old Guy" wrote in message

There's the same set of problems with adhering foam panels, even with
a foil facing. *They give off some stuff that you don't want to
breathe when there's a fire.

************************************************** **********

You mean if your shop is on fire you're going to stand inside and watch it?
Head down wind and inhale the aroma?

Bored Borg wrote in
.com:

*snip useful references*


I hope that's useful. Sorry I haven't got a simple reference or
all-in-one page for you. I think this is a case of hitting on the
right google-words serendipitously. and so far I've not been very
successful.
*snip: more good suggestions*

Thanks for the info. I'll pass the ideas on to the ones that are doing the
deciding. It might be worth a bit of research, even if it only makes a 3
degree difference.

Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as some
writers are incorrigible.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On Nov 21, 7:41*am, Old Guy wrote:
Hi,

I've got about what you do, 12' x 24' metal storage building,e more $$ and time than I want to put in.

" I bought
4 infra red heat lamps and
a small radiant propane heater
a pair of flannel lined jeans ($50) and
insulated shoes from LL Bean ($70) and
a stocking cap. *Add
a chore jacket,
a sweatshirt and
a pair of gloves
4 rubber mats ($20)"

Wow, sounds like you spent a lot of time and money insulating yourself
and on five heaters. And will spend considerable $$ on electricity and
propane.

All that worry about the fumes the insulation might give off in case
of a fire is interesting. My worry would be the burnt tools before the
nasty gases. A fire would seem even less likely in a well-insulated
shop where small safe electric low-draw electric heaters could create
a comfortable environment. Tractor supply has stall mats on sale for
$29 (4'x6') (Black Friday) that will insulate and provide comfort and
are durable as the dickens - can go on dirt or gravel as well as
concrete, of course).

If the shed is sound, you can use 1 x 4's to "frame in" for the
insulation as they are not bearing walls. Or 2 x 2's and use that two-
inch thick foam board and construction adhesive. If you are a
woodworker with the tools, none of this should be a larger effort than
dealing with cold steel handled tools and all that bulky clothing.

You can also consider adding to the exterior of the metal shed - wrap
it in Tyvek - or equivalent, sheath it with oil-impregnated sheathing
wrap it again with Tyvek and add vinyl siding. Either way, you want to
create a relatively tight envelope for you and your tools. ZTHen a
smaller heater will be "killer."

On Nov 19, 4:25*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
KIMOSABE wrote:
My home shop is squeezed into a 9 x 16 wood shed.

I can't do much in the winter because *NJ is just too cold. *I need
to
heat it up now and then and am looking for suggestions. *I tried a
small 1500 btu Pelonis electric/fan heater the other day and that
was
about as effective as puppies' breath.

So, any thoughts? *Space is at a premium. *I'm stepping around and
over stuff as it is now.

I'd consider some sort of propane or kerosene heater provided it
wasn't a space hog or just too much of a fire or carbon monoxide
hazard.

I may be asking for the impossible.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

For a rough estimate of how much heater you need you might want to run
the calculator athttp://www.heater-store.com/heater_calculator_info.htm. *Note that
with good insulation you need a _lot_ less heat.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Here's another approach if you have a South Wall exposed:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Solar-Heater/

KIMOSABE wrote:
My home shop is squeezed into a 9 x 16 wood shed.

I can't do much in the winter because NJ is just too cold. I need to
heat it up now and then and am looking for suggestions. I tried a
small 1500 btu Pelonis electric/fan heater the other day and that was
about as effective as puppies' breath.

So, any thoughts? Space is at a premium. I'm stepping around and
over stuff as it is now.

I'd consider some sort of propane or kerosene heater provided it
wasn't a space hog or just too much of a fire or carbon monoxide
hazard.

I may be asking for the impossible.

I don't think you're asking for the impossible. No mater what source of
heat you choose, the first step should be to make the shop reasonably
tight and at least minimally insulated so that heat isn't lost as fast
as you add it.

I have an obvious bias toward solar heat because it doesn't have any
operating costs and because (at least during the day) it's already warm
whenever you want to use it.

I have photos of a solar-heated shop building at

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

It's larger than your shop, so just imagine it scaled down to the size
of yours...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:38:17 -0800 (PST), KIMOSABE
wrote:

My home shop is squeezed into a 9 x 16 wood shed.

I can't do much in the winter because NJ is just too cold. I need to
heat it up now and then and am looking for suggestions. I tried a
small 1500 btu Pelonis electric/fan heater the other day and that was
about as effective as puppies' breath.

So, any thoughts? Space is at a premium. I'm stepping around and
over stuff as it is now.

I'd consider some sort of propane or kerosene heater provided it
wasn't a space hog or just too much of a fire or carbon monoxide
hazard.

I may be asking for the impossible.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


Temporary measure - pile up (rectangular) straw bales round all the
walls and on the roof. Bond foil covered insulation to the outside of
the door. Hope no one sets fire to it. Heat with electric fan
heater.

Permanent measure, insulate the walls roof and floor with the best
insulation you can afford., probably better to rebuild from scratch
with *at least* 4 inches of insulation in the floor, walls and roof.
Heat with (air) passive solar collectors in a south facing wall.

Insulate correctly and you wont need a wood stove or the other dingbat
ideas often floated around for workshop use - they cause many more
problems than they solve.


--

In article , Morris Dovey
wrote:

KIMOSABE wrote:
My home shop is squeezed into a 9 x 16 wood shed.

I can't do much in the winter because NJ is just too cold. I need to
heat it up now and then and am looking for suggestions. I tried a
small 1500 btu Pelonis electric/fan heater the other day and that was
about as effective as puppies' breath.

So, any thoughts? Space is at a premium. I'm stepping around and
over stuff as it is now.

I'd consider some sort of propane or kerosene heater provided it
wasn't a space hog or just too much of a fire or carbon monoxide
hazard.

I may be asking for the impossible.

I don't think you're asking for the impossible. No mater what source of
heat you choose, the first step should be to make the shop reasonably
tight and at least minimally insulated so that heat isn't lost as fast
as you add it.

I have an obvious bias toward solar heat because it doesn't have any
operating costs and because (at least during the day) it's already warm
whenever you want to use it.

I have photos of a solar-heated shop building at

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

It's larger than your shop, so just imagine it scaled down to the size
of yours...

If space is so critical, start with the bubble foil insulation. It is
not what I would use for a permanent installation, but at least it will,
if properly installed - reduce air leaks. Put in on all the walls and
the ceiling, use the metal (6N28) tape to seal the seams 3 passes on the
seams works best (first right down the seam, the second to one side
hitting on the tape and the bubble wrap, the third on the other side)
and all the staple holes. Make sure it is air tight. Then weather strip
the door(s) and caulk around the windows - I assume they are single pane
- so use the winter insulation kits from the borg or wally-mart. Once
that is done, you can use radiant electric heaters (Lee Valley has a
nice one that is reasonably priced) that mount to the ceiling - 2 -1500
watt systems should do a reasonable job of heating the place up. The
silver walls will also reflect your lights, so it will seem brighter.

When the weather is better next spring - rebuild the place - 1 foot
larger in each direction so you can afford to put 6 inches of insulation
in the walls and at least a foot in the ceiling. I would use the DeSoto
method of heating...unless you are always going to work in the late
evening.

Cheers

Doug

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 18:03:11 -0800 (PST), KIMOSABE
wrote:

The price I paid for the infrared propane heater was $49.
http://www.heatershop.com/propane_infrared_heaters.html

Thanks for all for the good advice and for alerting me to the moisture
problem. I think I'll start by leaving the double doors open for an
hour or two after closing down work.

I haven't taken a close look at it yet, but the easiest way to
insulate for me will be to use the firm pink foam stuff with the shiny
silver backing from Home Depot.


Heated an 8 x 16 shed w/ no insulation through an extremely cold
upstate NY winter a while back with one of those single burner round
ones. One thing that really helped was a small fan behind and above
the heater to help circulate the warm air it produces. Kept the kids
toasty after school while I rebuilt a house from the ground up.
Although water vapor is a byproduct of almost all combustion, I never
noticed a problem with it. Good luck bud