For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in the
shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the inspector
have the right to roam freely about my house looking for problems and
mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder how
that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

Eigenvector wrote:
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are
my rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently
in the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does
the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at
hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector
could pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes
me wonder how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

Inspections are by consent--if you decide to withdraw consent and send
the inspector packing you should be able to, however if he doesn't get
to inspect everything he thinks he needs to inspect then you don't get
your Certificate of Occupancy.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

I'm sure it varies quite a bit by location. Here in Tucson I'm
building a workshop and doing some remodeling under a permit. The
inspectors have been great. They have bent over backwards to be
helpful, and have made an unmistakable point to not look at anything I
haven't specifically invited them to look at.

I think where they can get invasive is when they have received a
complaint, and the homeowner refuses them entry to the property. then
they have to go get a search warrant, be accompanied by cops, and the
whole thing is about problems.

but your locality may be different from mine, and your specific
inspector may just happen to be a flaming asshole. ask around amongst
your neighbors for someone who has done permit/inspections for the
type of electrical work you're doing, and see what their experience
was like.

Generally, I've found that if you work with them, they will work with you.
No worries and no attitudes is the best approach IMHO.

If you claim you know more (which you may) or have rights (which you do) and
it is perceived as stepping on their toes or testing their influence, then
you will have a nit picking, detail oriented person on your case for a long
time to come.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Eigenvector wrote:
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

As others said, I presume it can vary by locality, but where I've been
(in VA/TN now KS), the inspection covers the work scope of the permit
and _directly_ affected interconnection(s).

The only place I've ever seen any difficulties beyond that is if an
obvious and imminent hazard is observed--they're obligated to note that
and take action (and, of course, you would want them to in such a case).

They can't come to inspect a garage addition and use that as an excuse
for a complete household inspection/witch hunt. The place where the
garage feed ties into the existing panel or the new subpanel feed to
from the old is, of course, in that jurisdiction as noted. If that
shows an obvious fault in the main panel, he (rightfully) wouldn't be
required to simply ignore it. OTOH, that an existing house is, say,
2-wire service, the addition extension inspection doesn't mean the whole
house has to be brought up to current Code and can't cite old work that
was adequate as a current defect.

--

wrote in message
...
I'm sure it varies quite a bit by location. Here in Tucson I'm
building a workshop and doing some remodeling under a permit. The
inspectors have been great. They have bent over backwards to be
helpful, and have made an unmistakable point to not look at anything I
haven't specifically invited them to look at.

I think where they can get invasive is when they have received a
complaint, and the homeowner refuses them entry to the property. then
they have to go get a search warrant, be accompanied by cops, and the
whole thing is about problems.

So they do have to have a search warrant and police escort to "just show up"
unless invited. That was something I had never heard myself, having always
assumed they could pretty much do whatever they wanted - in the name of
"safety". That was based on stories of inspectors who walked down streets
and knocked on people's doors that looked like they might have done work
recently.

It's not my intention to be a dickhead about it and I don't have anything to
hide regardless. Its just that I keep hearing these stories of inspectors
finding small things and causing the person the spend thousands and
thousands of dollars on items that simply shouldn't matter and didn't even
pertain to the original inspection. The electrician told me about the story
of the guy who finished his basement and was told to pull all the drywall
down - since drywalling requires a permit.


but your locality may be different from mine, and your specific
inspector may just happen to be a flaming asshole. ask around amongst
your neighbors for someone who has done permit/inspections for the
type of electrical work you're doing, and see what their experience
was like.

I wanted to ask about firsthand experience from others before I tangled with
the inspector and put myself into real trouble. The electrician who did the
work made it sound like the inspectors were real mixed bags, some were
ex-electricians, some were uneducated college kids.

I know in my area you cannot even paint your house without a permit which
leads me to think these guys play serious hardball. Part of that has to do
(I assume) with the fact that the city relies on permits from homebuilders
to pad the city funds. Now that home construction has slowed considerably
they're knuckling down on small permit items.

But I can live with it. I guess simply keeping my mouth shut and being
polite will get the job done. I'd certainly not pull a lawyer stint on him
and try to bully him around.

Is the inspector a town employee or a contractor.

If a town employee they can note obvious stuff, most will just restrict
themselves to the permit items.

A contractor for towns that have adopted the UCC and require you to bring in
a third party inspector will generally look just at what he is paid to look
at.

Depends on how mercenary your municipality is.





"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Eigenvector wrote:
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are
my rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently
in the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does
the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at
hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector
could pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes
me wonder how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

Inspections are by consent--if you decide to withdraw consent and send
the inspector packing you should be able to, however if he doesn't get
to inspect everything he thinks he needs to inspect then you don't get
your Certificate of Occupancy.

--
--
--John

Yeah I guess that goes without saying. Its just one of those things I
wanted to figure out before I dealt with in case my attitude problem ended
up costing me thousands and thousands of dollars.

Too bad I can't force him to put on a black sackcloth bag over his head
while I whirl him around 5 times then guide him to the place of inspection.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Eigenvector wrote:
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

As others said, I presume it can vary by locality, but where I've been (in
VA/TN now KS), the inspection covers the work scope of the permit and
_directly_ affected interconnection(s).

The only place I've ever seen any difficulties beyond that is if an
obvious and imminent hazard is observed--they're obligated to note that
and take action (and, of course, you would want them to in such a case).

They can't come to inspect a garage addition and use that as an excuse for
a complete household inspection/witch hunt. The place where the garage
feed ties into the existing panel or the new subpanel feed to from the old
is, of course, in that jurisdiction as noted. If that shows an obvious
fault in the main panel, he (rightfully) wouldn't be required to simply
ignore it. OTOH, that an existing house is, say, 2-wire service, the
addition extension inspection doesn't mean the whole house has to be
brought up to current Code and can't cite old work that was adequate as a
current defect.

--

Alright, so he can't just roam around looking to ch-ch-ching ching the
city's coffers. As you said, obviously if there was something faulty it
would be good for him to point it out.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the
shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the inspector
have the right to roam freely about my house looking for problems and
mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how
that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

I deal with municipal building inspectors on a weekly, sometimes daily,
basis, in reportedly one of the toughest jurisdictions for residential
construction in the country, and have yet to have an inspector look at
anything except what he was called out to inspect ... mostly they don't have
the time to do otherwise.

Providing you don't have the mafia involved in your local government, I
don't think you have anything to worry about in most locales.

AAMOF, welcome the inspector with sincerity, take the opportunity to ask
questions of him which you may not be sure about, and you'll probably enjoy
the process.

My favorite inspectors are the toughest ones. They ultimately make my job
easier, and more profitable, as a builder by allowing me to hold "the
trades" feet to the fire.

The inspectors are, in effect, doing you a favor by their presence,
especially when it comes to putting your house back on the market in a few
years ... which we shall all do in one way or the other. Homeowners need to
be aware that lenders are really getting into requiring "3rd party"
inspections prior to closing on home loans in the wake of the mortgage
crisis ... and these guys are hired to be junk yard dogs on _your_ house.

The local building inspectors are pussycats by comparison.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

Sounds like common sense rules here.

Be polite, diplomatic, and accomodating and the inspection should be just
fine.

I had one of the flaming assholes inspecting my shop. This one had the
ability to get the electric company to disconnect the service to my shop
until I passed his approval. I ran into a problem after he approved the
rough in and then nothing changed with the outside
box that he objected to upon final approval. Kept insisting that the power
company would have an issue. They came out and laughed, said no problem.
It didn't help, of course there was no admitting of any error on his part,
just more flames.
Cost me more money to fix it but his highness finally approved.

Most will work with you, good luck.


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

Sounds like common sense rules here.

Be polite, diplomatic, and accomodating and the inspection should be just
fine.

When we upgraded our electric panel for the house (which is located on
the outside of the garage) the electrical inspector wanted to see the
inside of the garage and my garage building permit...which was
completed and signed off 6 months earlier!. He also changed his mind
on how he wanted something completed half way through the inspection -
this ended up costing me an extra $500 in the end (I had a permit for
a attached garage...but he said it was detached...so it changed the
inerpretation of the electrical code.). The final straw was when the
power company called me at work and said " your power has been
disconnected...what do you want us to do now?" It seems the inspector
took it upon himself to call the power company and arrange my power to
be cut before my electrician was prepared for the transfer. The
inspector shouldn't even have been making that call.

Then again, I live in an area where a new door requires a permit.

SB

writes:



Then again, I live in an area where a new door requires a permit.

Denver? Integra Engineering?

s

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

Sounds like common sense rules here.

Be polite, diplomatic, and accomodating and the inspection should be just
fine.

Actually I just got back my response from the inspectors office on drywall.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob through my
wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these people sleep at
night?

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

Sounds like common sense rules here.

Be polite, diplomatic, and accomodating and the inspection should be just
fine.

Actually I just got back my response from the inspectors office on
drywall.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob through
my wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these people sleep at
night?

do you need a permit for brushing your teeth too?

i'd move.

"Eigenvector" wrote:

Does the inspector have the right to roam freely about my house
looking for problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just
the task at hand?

Housing inspectors are like traffic cops.

You are going to end up spending money.

Trick is to figure out what is the lowest cost "ticket", pay it and
move on.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob
through my wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these
people sleep at night?

Probably very well, thank you.

Sounds like Cook County from a time gone by.

Lew

charlie wrote:


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the
inspector have the right to roam freely about my house looking for
problems and mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at
hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

Sounds like common sense rules here.

Be polite, diplomatic, and accomodating and the inspection should be
just fine.

Actually I just got back my response from the inspectors office on
drywall.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob through
my wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these people sleep
at night?

do you need a permit for brushing your teeth too?

i'd move.

Damn right, I renovated a kitchen, no permit required, as I didn't change
location. Shed 110 sq feet, no permit, deck less that 2 1/2 feet off the
ground, no permit required. Only permit I have needed was an electrical
service upgrade, in 12 years in the house, totally renovated it, new
shingles, new eavestrough, furnace etc., no permits.

Get the hell out of there.
--
Froz...

In article , "Eigenvector" wrote:

Actually I just got back my response from the inspectors office on drywall.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob through my
wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these people sleep at
night?

Damn! Where do you live, anyway?

Eigenvector wrote:
....
Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob
through my wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these
people sleep at night?

Where the heck are you located so I can know to stay out of that
jurisdiction? (or , really?)

Sounds like need to just "don't ask, don't tell" would be the way to fly...

--

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Eigenvector"
wrote:

Actually I just got back my response from the inspectors office on
drywall.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob through
my
wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these people sleep at
night?

Damn! Where do you live, anyway?

King County Wa. I don't even live in a city, just unincorporated county.

Actually I misspoke, technically a permit is required to repair drywall,
however if you drive down to the office and present them with plans on what
you are trying to do - they might wave the permit, then again they might
not. I can even post the e-mail, but haven't to protect the poor sap who
wrote me the e-mail. However the e-mail will ABSOLUTELY find its way to the
next general election, one of the county representatives happens to live 5
doors down from me. Rules like this are exactly why people break the law
and corruption spreads.

(Doug Miller) writes:
In article , "Eigenvector" wrote:

Actually I just got back my response from the inspectors office on drywall.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob through my
wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these people sleep at
night?

Damn! Where do you live, anyway?

Looks, from the headers, like either washington state or minnesota.

$ host 24.18.65.40
40.65.18.24.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer c-24-18-65-40.hsd1.mn.comcast.net.
40.65.18.24.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer c-24-18-65-40.hsd1.wa.comcast.net.

Sure looks like a comcast misconfiguration somewhere.

scott

Scott Lurndal wrote:

Looks, from the headers, like either washington state or minnesota.

$ host 24.18.65.40
40.65.18.24.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer c-24-18-65-40.hsd1.mn.comcast.net.
40.65.18.24.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer c-24-18-65-40.hsd1.wa.comcast.net.

Sure looks like a comcast misconfiguration somewhere.

whois 24.18.65.40

Checking IP: 24.18.65.40...
Name: c-24-18-65-40.hsd1.wa.comcast.net
IP: 24.18.65.40
Aliases: c-24-18-65-40.hsd1.mn.comcast.net
Domain: comcast.net

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey writes:
Scott Lurndal wrote:

Looks, from the headers, like either washington state or minnesota.

$ host 24.18.65.40
40.65.18.24.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer c-24-18-65-40.hsd1.mn.comcast.net.
40.65.18.24.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer c-24-18-65-40.hsd1.wa.comcast.net.

Sure looks like a comcast misconfiguration somewhere.

whois 24.18.65.40

Checking IP: 24.18.65.40...
Name: c-24-18-65-40.hsd1.wa.comcast.net
IP: 24.18.65.40
Aliases: c-24-18-65-40.hsd1.mn.comcast.net
Domain: comcast.net


Sure, but it doesn't make sense to have two geographical locations using
the same routable IP pool address(es); most likely a misconfiguration.

scott

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
Actually I just got back my response from the inspectors office on
drywall.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob through
my wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these people sleep at
night?


I cannot imagine anyone actually applying for one in a case like that.

If a permit was actually requested for every job in the country that needed
one, it would create major problems in staffing the inspector's offices and
the big home improvement stores would be going out of business.

I'm all for following building codes but no way should a permit be needed
for such minor repairs.

wrote:

I'm sure it varies quite a bit by location. Here in Tucson I'm
building a workshop and doing some remodeling under a permit. The
inspectors have been great. They have bent over backwards to be
helpful, and have made an unmistakable point to not look at anything I
haven't specifically invited them to look at.


So how is progress on the new shop Bridger?



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Eigenvector wrote:

For people who have had to have inspections for permit work what are my
rights as a homeowner?

I'm having an inspector come out to examine some work I did recently in
the
shop and am curious what my rights are as a citizen. Does the inspector
have the right to roam freely about my house looking for problems and
mistakes or is he/she constrained to just the task at hand?

The electrician who did the work made it sound like the inspector could
pretty much do whatever they wanted once inside - which makes me wonder
how that wouldn't violate my 4th amendment rights.

I think it really depends upon the area of the country and the
jurisdiction in which you live. Some areas, the permitting process and
inspections are little more than tax collection and a cursory verification
you didn't do anything overtly stupid (like try to wire with extension cord
wire,etc). Other areas of the country and various municipalities are much
more nanny-state and intrusive, requiring a permit to so much as pick up a
hammer.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Aug 12, 10:31 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Eigenvector" wrote in message
Actually I just got back my response from the inspectors office on
drywall.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob through
my wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these people sleep at
night?

I cannot imagine anyone actually applying for one in a case like that.

If a permit was actually requested for every job in the country that needed
one, it would create major problems in staffing the inspector's offices and
the big home improvement stores would be going out of business.

I'm all for following building codes but no way should a permit be needed
for such minor repairs.

With the influx of new people, it won't last much longer, but in
Bedford and many other counties you do not need a permit for an
agricultural building. The theory is that only animals are endangered
by poor wiring, etc., I guess. I did get a permit when I built my
shop, but the inspection wasn't onerous. Do you have to actually BE a
farm? Nah. Buy three chickens and raise 'em for meat, go out of the
farm bidness when you kill the fryers and eat 'em. Actually, a friend
did that with rabbits on his one acre "farm." I know another guy who
has about 60 acres, "raised" horses and dogs for years, and got some
pretty fair tax write-offs in the process, while building everything
from barns and hay sheds to a car port for his house. He dealt just
enough horses to make a profit every third year, too.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..


Actually I misspoke, technically a permit is required to repair drywall,
however if you drive down to the office and present them with plans on
what you are trying to do - they might wave the permit, then again they
might not. I can even post the e-mail, but haven't to protect the poor
sap who wrote me the e-mail. However the e-mail will ABSOLUTELY find its
way to the next general election, one of the county representatives
happens to live 5 doors down from me. Rules like this are exactly why
people break the law and corruption spreads.

"Technically a permit is required" can be intended to mean a couple of
things. Without posting what the fellow said in full, it's hard to believe
he's really being difficult.

--

-Mike-

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
Actually I just got back my response from the inspectors office on
drywall.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob through
my wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these people sleep
at night?


I cannot imagine anyone actually applying for one in a case like that.

If a permit was actually requested for every job in the country that
needed one, it would create major problems in staffing the inspector's
offices and the big home improvement stores would be going out of
business.

I'm all for following building codes but no way should a permit be needed
for such minor repairs.
Well I don't want to get too far into this, I've certainly got what I needed
and regardless of how I feel about my county's permit system it doesn't
change how I'll interact with the inspector. I don't fault the inspector
for local regulations. He/she just enforces them - the commissioners are
the ones who write them.

Stepping onto the soapbox
But with regards to what you said, the inspectors and the county should be
following the law no ifs ands or buts. If the laws are ambiguous then they
need to be rewritten or interpreted once and followed per that
interpretation. By ignoring laws when they get
silly/inconvienent/unnecessary you open the door to all sorts of corruption
and poor regulatory practices. However by forcing people to follow stupid
laws such laws are brought to light and CHANGED so that they are no longer
stupid.

To me the permit system is deeply flawed in that the policies are not
clearly documented, not friendly to the layman, and subject to far too much
interpretation by the inspectors.

Eigenvector wrote:
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
Actually I just got back my response from the inspectors office on
drywall.

Repairing drywall requires a permit. Meaning if I put a doorknob
through my wall I have to get a permit to repair it. How do these
people sleep at night?


I cannot imagine anyone actually applying for one in a case like
that.

If a permit was actually requested for every job in the country
that
needed one, it would create major problems in staffing the
inspector's offices and the big home improvement stores would be
going out of business.

I'm all for following building codes but no way should a permit be
needed for such minor repairs.
Well I don't want to get too far into this, I've certainly got what
I
needed and regardless of how I feel about my county's permit system
it doesn't change how I'll interact with the inspector. I don't
fault the inspector for local regulations. He/she just enforces
them
- the commissioners are the ones who write them.

Stepping onto the soapbox
But with regards to what you said, the inspectors and the county
should be following the law no ifs ands or buts. If the laws are
ambiguous then they need to be rewritten or interpreted once and
followed per that interpretation. By ignoring laws when they get
silly/inconvienent/unnecessary you open the door to all sorts of
corruption and poor regulatory practices. However by forcing people
to follow stupid laws such laws are brought to light and CHANGED so
that they are no longer stupid.

To me the permit system is deeply flawed in that the policies are
not
clearly documented, not friendly to the layman, and subject to far
too much interpretation by the inspectors.

That may be so, but it's true of most other areas of law as well. The
only way it's going to change is to start over from scratch, and
that's not going to happen.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Eigenvector" wrote

To me the permit system is deeply flawed in that the policies are not
clearly documented, not friendly to the layman, and subject to far too
much
interpretation by the inspectors.

You pretty well hit the nail on the head. But, it's their supposed knowledge
of the building codes that gives the inspector his power over you. And,
since no one is perfect, an inspector's erroneous code "interpretation" can
often come into play and cause you grief.

Can't tell you how many times I've had an inspector fail an electrical final
for having an overhead recessed can in/close to a shower area, only to have
to point out to him that his interpretation of the code failed to account
for the height of the ceiling, which he had not bothered to measure.

IOW, knowledge can indeed, be power (although in that event he's just as
likely to fail you somewhere else in retaliation).

The point being is that the building inspection process is a "game", and
like any other it behooves both participants to learn the rules and study
how to play it.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Well I don't want to get too far into this, I've certainly got what I
needed and regardless of how I feel about my county's permit system it
doesn't change how I'll interact with the inspector. I don't fault the
inspector for local regulations. He/she just enforces them - the
commissioners are the ones who write them.

But with regards to what you said, the inspectors and the county should be
following the law no ifs ands or buts. If the laws are ambiguous then they
need to be rewritten or interpreted once and followed per that
interpretation. By ignoring laws when they get
silly/inconvienent/unnecessary you open the door to all sorts of corruption
and poor regulatory practices.

I disagree.

I live in a village of maybe 2000 residents un upstate NY. I think the
Mayor get's paid $2500/year and each trustee gets $1000.
These guys understandably rubber stamp some generic pre-existing code. It
would be impractical to do otherwise.

The current building instector would not let me build my glorified garden
shed on 24" a mortered stone wall because we are in "an earthquake zone".
To pacify him, I had to embed steel pedistals in the corners.

The irony is that my 150 year old home is made of brick (not veneer) upon a
mortered stone foundation. If we have an earthquake, I suppose I should
therefore run for the shed.

I don't fault the village board; I consider that overzealous enforcement in
the absense of common sense.

-Steve













** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

StephenM wrote:
Well I don't want to get too far into this, I've certainly got what
I
needed and regardless of how I feel about my county's permit system
it doesn't change how I'll interact with the inspector. I don't
fault the inspector for local regulations. He/she just enforces
them - the commissioners are the ones who write them.

But with regards to what you said, the inspectors and the county
should be following the law no ifs ands or buts. If the laws are
ambiguous then they need to be rewritten or interpreted once and
followed per that interpretation. By ignoring laws when they get
silly/inconvienent/unnecessary you open the door to all sorts of
corruption and poor regulatory practices.

I disagree.

I live in a village of maybe 2000 residents un upstate NY. I think
the Mayor get's paid $2500/year and each trustee gets $1000.
These guys understandably rubber stamp some generic pre-existing
code. It would be impractical to do otherwise.

The current building instector would not let me build my glorified
garden shed on 24" a mortered stone wall because we are in "an
earthquake zone". To pacify him, I had to embed steel pedistals in
the corners.

The irony is that my 150 year old home is made of brick (not veneer)
upon a mortered stone foundation. If we have an earthquake, I
suppose
I should therefore run for the shed.

I don't fault the village board; I consider that overzealous
enforcement in the absense of common sense.

What's the law? The International Residential Code only lists the
three northernmost counties of NY state as being in seismic zone D1 or
higher and specifically exempts detached structures less than 200
square feet in area from the permit process, however NY state uses a
modified version of that code with permitting requirements
estabilished by statute and with local ordinance also able to place
other requirements on the permit process. So if you're in Seismic
Zone D1 and the local ordinances don't exempt your shed the inspector
doesn't have a lot of choice in what he enforces.

The code generally grandfathers existing structures, hence your house
doesn't have to be rebuilt.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

What's the law? The International Residential Code only lists the
three northernmost counties of NY state as being in seismic zone D1 or
higher and specifically exempts detached structures less than 200
square feet in area from the permit process, however NY state uses a
modified version of that code with permitting requirements
estabilished by statute and with local ordinance also able to place
other requirements on the permit process. So if you're in Seismic
Zone D1 and the local ordinances don't exempt your shed the inspector
doesn't have a lot of choice in what he enforces.

Sure he does... happens every day (I'm not saying it's right, just that it
is the way things are).

The code generally grandfathers existing structures, hence your house
doesn't have to be rebuilt.

All true. Northernmost county, 12x22 shed etc.

It is the law. My point was that it was that it was ouside the bounds of
common sense, not outside the bounds of the law.

In a small community there are two factors that come into play: "limitted
resources" and "every-body knows everybody". Besides not having enough time
to for zero-tolerance enforement he would likely be run out of town for
being a dickhead. He does not enforce everything to the letter of the law (I
have been the beneficiary, and I have seen it in several other cases).

At least in this community, zero-tolerance code enforcement is neither
realistic nor practical. That is, they (in this case I mean not just the
inspector but also the villiage board.) probably could not make it happen
even if they were so inclined.


-Steve




** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

StephenM wrote:
What's the law? The International Residential Code only lists the
three northernmost counties of NY state as being in seismic zone D1
or higher and specifically exempts detached structures less than
200
square feet in area from the permit process, however NY state uses
a
modified version of that code with permitting requirements
estabilished by statute and with local ordinance also able to place
other requirements on the permit process. So if you're in Seismic
Zone D1 and the local ordinances don't exempt your shed the
inspector
doesn't have a lot of choice in what he enforces.

Sure he does... happens every day (I'm not saying it's right, just
that it is the way things are).

The code generally grandfathers existing structures, hence your
house
doesn't have to be rebuilt.

All true. Northernmost county, 12x22 shed etc.

It is the law. My point was that it was that it was ouside the
bounds
of common sense, not outside the bounds of the law.

In a small community there are two factors that come into play:
"limitted resources" and "every-body knows everybody". Besides not
having enough time to for zero-tolerance enforement he would likely
be run out of town for being a dickhead. He does not enforce
everything to the letter of the law (I have been the beneficiary,
and
I have seen it in several other cases).

At least in this community, zero-tolerance code enforcement is
neither
realistic nor practical. That is, they (in this case I mean not just
the inspector but also the villiage board.) probably could not make
it happen even if they were so inclined.

If he gives your shed a pass in a community like that, then the next
guy will have one a little bigger and expect the same, and so on until
he's expected to give a 28 story high-rise a pass.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

wrote:


When we upgraded our electric panel for the house (which is located on
the outside of the garage) the electrical inspector wanted to see the
inside of the garage and my garage building permit...which was
completed and signed off 6 months earlier!. He also changed his mind
on how he wanted something completed half way through the inspection -
this ended up costing me an extra $500 in the end (I had a permit for
a attached garage...but he said it was detached...so it changed the
inerpretation of the electrical code.). The final straw was when the
power company called me at work and said " your power has been
disconnected...what do you want us to do now?" It seems the inspector
took it upon himself to call the power company and arrange my power to
be cut before my electrician was prepared for the transfer. The
inspector shouldn't even have been making that call.

Then again, I live in an area where a new door requires a permit.

SB

As far as I'm concerned most permits are to generate taxable income.
Anything not structural or electrical should not need a permit.

Rich

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.co.nr/

"evodawg" wrote
As far as I'm concerned most permits are to generate taxable income.
Anything not structural or electrical should not need a permit.

If you would add but Plumbing and HVAC to that, both of which cry for
inspection to protect the unwary, I would mostly agree.

That said, the permitting process is used to enforce building standards and
to protect the unwary against the practices of shoddy remodelers and
builders, whose numbers are legion.

... and, just wait to see how those legions will multiply most don't speak
English.

IOW, with regard to building permits/code enforcement, you ain't seen
nothing yet! ... and be thankful for it!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:

"evodawg" wrote
As far as I'm concerned most permits are to generate taxable income.
Anything not structural or electrical should not need a permit.

If you would add but Plumbing and HVAC to that, both of which cry for
inspection to protect the unwary, I would mostly agree.

That said, the permitting process is used to enforce building standards
and to protect the unwary against the practices of shoddy remodelers and
builders, whose numbers are legion.

... and, just wait to see how those legions will multiply most don't
speak
English.

IOW, with regard to building permits/code enforcement, you ain't seen
nothing yet! ... and be thankful for it!

I agree, HVAC involves electrical. Plumbing, usually it either works or it
leaks. Pretty stupid simple. But to protect the innocent then ok.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.co.nr/

evodawg wrote:
....
I agree, HVAC involves electrical. Plumbing, usually it either works or it
leaks. Pretty stupid simple. But to protect the innocent then ok.

Not always so simple, no.

--