On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:49:08 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

On Jul 31, 9:21*am, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:18:38 -0400, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:



"Ken" wrote in message
...
It means a lot of lost jobs, because of all the Jap cars
when will we wake up, buy AMERICAN. *We've already lost the electronics,
next will be the Automotive, *WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!

Next for automotive? *Have you looked around in a parking lot in the past 10
years?

Our front lot at work was 100% US about 15 years ago, now it has a lonely
Ford, a US built Korean car and three Japanese imports. *Back lot is better,
about 60 -40 in favor of US.

Yes Japanese branded but made in the USA. *Brand new Toyota plant 20
miles from my house. 4000 jobs. * Going to build trucks and SUV's?
Nope, going to build the Prius.

Two hours south is a Nissan plant. *Building Altima's.

Thing is, they can come to this country, build what the market wants,
offer it in high quality and be successful. *Why can't the US brands
do that?

Frank

liberally snipped a portiion

Mind you, there are many examples of the need for organized labour.
Textiles, coal mining etc.... but the car industry, the rail roads and
many other examples also prove that a union can screw and entire
industry out of existence. The worker 'sticking it to the man' will do
that. The 'man sticking it to the worker' will do that too. Big
management and big unions have been behaving like idiots.

Don't disagree but I would suggest that consistently bad management is
the root cause for creating and environment that allows the union to
get to that point. If the tail is wagging the dog it's cause the dog
stuck his head in the sand.

I had a union. They were highly productive, cooperative,
collaborative, understanding of the realities of global economics and
in no way responsible for the demise of our plant. Horrible corporate
management strategy was the root cause for that.

I think it is time that shareholders look into their portfolios and
dump those assholes and start supporting manufacturers who treat their
much needed, skilled workforce with respect, so that they have a
chance of survival. This ain't 1870 no mo'!

Ever look at the stock movement the day after a company announces they
are closing a plant and moving offshore? Stock goes up every time.
Doesn't matter if it is the right thing to do or not, investors just
assume it is.



*outta here*

r

The auto makers have moved out of Detroit. Many have gone to the
south due to cheap labor and no unions. Nearly every auto
manufacturer is making cars in the US now and new factories have been
springing up all over the US during the past 5 years. Leaving the
decades old model of car manufacturing behind has worked well for
Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and BMW. In the meantime,
traditional US auto makers stuck to their old method of doing business
and went downhill. The new factories have great benefits for their
workers. They're very clean, new and well run. Building in the US
cuts down on costs and allows manufacturers to study the local
market. States who didn't work hard to woo auto makers lost out. So
did unions who worked against the companies they depended on.

I think some Chinese products have their place but I am tired of not
having a US alternative. Tools are probably the best example to
people here. Somebody designed a lunch box planer years ago. Today I
can buy that lunchbox planer in white, orange, yellow, gray, blue and
probably some other colors I missed. They're all made from the same
design, to approximately the same specs and probably even come from
the same factories. Several US companies decide to buy X number of
these lunch box planers in their color of choice and price them within
several hundred dollars of each other. There is no real difference
between them besides the color and company graphics. This is only one
example of hundreds that I could probably find. What I really want is
a choice between 5 or 6 different designs rather than 5 or 6 different
colors. Then I can judge each one based on their design and
performance parameters. Otherwise I have to just pick one up in
whatever color I favor for no valid reason. Hmmm....should I buy the
Ridid for $300 or the Steel City for $500?

The problem of not having good product choices is the result of greedy
US companies who want to import any widget to make as much $$$ as
they can. None of them have any desire to build good or unique
products. None of them have pride in supporting US workers. It's all
about how much $$$ they can make for the board, CEO and other
directors. Unfortunately that is exactly what our economy is designed
for and it's what the US prides itself on. And not one of us can
individually change it. I can't hurt Delta's business badly enough
for them to design and build a planer in the US. Same for Rigid,
DeWalt, Steel City or any other US owned/operated tool peddler.

What we really need is a US tool company that makes good quality tools
in the US.

J. Clarke wrote:

Ed, you live in Connecticut. Connecticut has lost many manufacturing
jobs, not because of competition from overseas, but because
manufacturing in Connecticut is almost exclusively for the
military

We have lots of smaller specialty manufacters, like Hamer guitars
(woodworking content), Kaman music (Ovation), Peter Paul (as in Mounds),
Cannondale, Horton Brasses (woodworking content), etc...

You're right that we don't do so well with large scale, non-military stuff.

dayvo wrote:
....
about how much $$$ they can make for the board, CEO and other
directors. Unfortunately that is exactly what our economy is designed
for and it's what the US prides itself on. And not one of us can
individually change it. I can't hurt Delta's business badly enough
for them to design and build a planer in the US. ...

That is, of course, the purpose of _any_ company that isn't a government
or other monopolistic entity that doesn't require a profit to remain in
business. And, of course, you left off a major portion of where those
profits go, even for importers--employees of the distribution and retail
chain, etc., and the stockholders which include a major fraction of the
US population either directly or indirectly thru retirement plans.

What we really need is a US tool company that makes good quality tools
in the US.

The problem is, the US buying public has amply demonstrated they're more
interested in price than any other single factor. The fraction that
isn't is too small to be more than a niche market at best.

--

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:26:05 -0700, "Rod & Betty Jo"
wrote:


Frank Boettcher wrote:
Yes Japanese branded but made in the USA. Brand new Toyota plant 20
miles from my house. 4000 jobs. Going to build trucks and SUV's?
Nope, going to build the Prius.

Two hours south is a Nissan plant. Building Altima's.

Thing is, they can come to this country, build what the market wants,
offer it in high quality and be successful. Why can't the US brands
do that?

Frank


I've read that while foreign U.S. based auto manufacturing wages are only a
few dollars per hour cheaper that in fact with retirement, medical costs,
benefits etc. that the difference is $70+ U.S. Vs $45 foreign owned. If
indeed true such a margin creates very significant cost difference issues.

I'm sure that's why they're here. Bring a plant into an area where
the average fully benefit loaded manufacturing wage is about
$20/hour, finding labor is not going to be a problem.

Incidenty I've heard on a web woodworking forum that Delta was moving their
table saw manufacturing back to the U.S.....is it true? Rod


The Unisaw never left. Built in Jackson, TN, but with a higher
foreign content in components. The sheet metal is fabricated in
Jackson and the unit is assembled and painted there, components come
from the far east, Mexico and Brazil.

Regarding any others, I don't know. Of the 6-700 fine, knowledgable,
people who worked for Delta prior to the consolidation in 2000 there
are approximately 10 left with the company. Mostly field sales. I
have no contacts left to stay up with what is happening.

Frank

B A R R Y wrote:
....
You're right that we don't do so well with large scale, non-military stuff.

Deere, Caterpillar, etc., are doing just fine, thank you.

As are Boeing (commercial as well as military), Cessna,
Hawker/Beechcraft, ...

Selective "name that tune" here plays a part, too...

--

Frank Boettcher wrote:


I had a union. They were highly productive, cooperative,
collaborative, understanding of the realities of global economics and
in no way responsible for the demise of our plant. Horrible corporate
management strategy was the root cause for that.

My Toyota Tacoma is UAW built in Fremont, CA, in a former GM plant.

Same worker pool, same location, properly managed, building a
well-designed product.

dpb wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
....
You're right that we don't do so well with large scale, non-military
stuff.

Deere, Caterpillar, etc., are doing just fine, thank you.

As are Boeing (commercial as well as military), Cessna,
Hawker/Beechcraft, ...

Selective "name that tune" here plays a part, too...

--


I meant in Connecticut. Sorry. Pretty much all of our large-scale
non-military manufacturing is long gone. Most of the big stuff that's
left is United Technologies family and still tied back to military
stuff, like Pratt & Whitney, Sikorsky, etc...

Zip file compression and ESPN are Connecticut grown, though!

FWIW, Cessna is building it's newest aircraft in China.

On Jul 31, 3:32*pm, B A R R Y wrote:
Frank Boettcher wrote:

I had a union. *They were highly productive, cooperative,
collaborative, understanding of the realities of global economics and
in no way responsible for the demise of our plant. *Horrible corporate
management strategy was the root cause for that.

My Toyota Tacoma is UAW built in Fremont, CA, in a former GM plant.

Same worker pool, same location, properly managed, building a
well-designed product.

"Build it right, or we close the plant."

How is that for an incentive package? (It's about frickin' time!)

B A R R Y wrote:
....

FWIW, Cessna is building it's newest aircraft in China.

Only partially and that's as much strategic as otherwise to gain market
access. Plus, they're in the process of a $$multi-million expansion of
facilities in Wichita.

--

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:49:40 -0700 (PDT), Charlie Self
wrote:

On Jul 31, 3:20 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:26:05 -0700, "Rod & Betty Jo"



wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
Yes Japanese branded but made in the USA. Brand new Toyota plant 20
miles from my house. 4000 jobs. Going to build trucks and SUV's?
Nope, going to build the Prius.

Two hours south is a Nissan plant. Building Altima's.

Thing is, they can come to this country, build what the market wants,
offer it in high quality and be successful. Why can't the US brands
do that?

Frank

I've read that while foreign U.S. based auto manufacturing wages are only a
few dollars per hour cheaper that in fact with retirement, medical costs,
benefits etc. that the difference is $70+ U.S. Vs $45 foreign owned. If
indeed true such a margin creates very significant cost difference issues.

I'm sure that's why they're here. Bring a plant into an area where
the average fully benefit loaded manufacturing wage is about
$20/hour, finding labor is not going to be a problem.



Incidenty I've heard on a web woodworking forum that Delta was moving their
table saw manufacturing back to the U.S.....is it true? Rod

The Unisaw never left. Built in Jackson, TN, but with a higher
foreign content in components. The sheet metal is fabricated in
Jackson and the unit is assembled and painted there, components come
from the far east, Mexico and Brazil.

Regarding any others, I don't know. Of the 6-700 fine, knowledgable,
people who worked for Delta prior to the consolidation in 2000 there
are approximately 10 left with the company. Mostly field sales. I
have no contacts left to stay up with what is happening.

Frank

Many of the management, design and sales people moved to an outfit
called Steel City Toolworks.

Yep, when I go to IWF, I go to the Steel City booth to visit with all
my old friends.

Frank


I very much like the tools they're
currently offering, even though the units all seem to be
offshore...but, then, very little isn't these days.

"dpb" wrote:

Deere, Caterpillar, etc., are doing just fine, thank you.

As are Boeing (commercial as well as military), Cessna,
Hawker/Beechcraft, ...

Illinois, Iowa, and Kansas come to mind, but Connecticut?

Lew

On Jul 31, 3:20 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:26:05 -0700, "Rod & Betty Jo"



wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
Yes Japanese branded but made in the USA. Brand new Toyota plant 20
miles from my house. 4000 jobs. Going to build trucks and SUV's?
Nope, going to build the Prius.

Two hours south is a Nissan plant. Building Altima's.

Thing is, they can come to this country, build what the market wants,
offer it in high quality and be successful. Why can't the US brands
do that?

Frank

I've read that while foreign U.S. based auto manufacturing wages are only a
few dollars per hour cheaper that in fact with retirement, medical costs,
benefits etc. that the difference is $70+ U.S. Vs $45 foreign owned. If
indeed true such a margin creates very significant cost difference issues.

I'm sure that's why they're here. Bring a plant into an area where
the average fully benefit loaded manufacturing wage is about
$20/hour, finding labor is not going to be a problem.



Incidenty I've heard on a web woodworking forum that Delta was moving their
table saw manufacturing back to the U.S.....is it true? Rod

The Unisaw never left. Built in Jackson, TN, but with a higher
foreign content in components. The sheet metal is fabricated in
Jackson and the unit is assembled and painted there, components come
from the far east, Mexico and Brazil.

Regarding any others, I don't know. Of the 6-700 fine, knowledgable,
people who worked for Delta prior to the consolidation in 2000 there
are approximately 10 left with the company. Mostly field sales. I
have no contacts left to stay up with what is happening.

Frank

Many of the management, design and sales people moved to an outfit
called Steel City Toolworks. I very much like the tools they're
currently offering, even though the units all seem to be
offshore...but, then, very little isn't these days.

dpb wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
...

FWIW, Cessna is building it's newest aircraft in China.

Only partially and that's as much strategic as otherwise to gain market
access. Plus, they're in the process of a $$multi-million expansion of
facilities in Wichita.

And Independence (KS) and Columbus (GA).

Also, both the Wichita Airbus facility is expanding (independent of the
tanker contract foo-fa; they do Axxx design work in Wichita) as well as
Spirit (former Boeing commercial facility, now they do the former Boeing
work plus additional for various others including new work for Airbus as
well as 787 composites)...

Now is, somewhat amazingly, still pretty-much boom times in commercial
aviation in both large airframes as well as small business and private
markets despite fuel costs.

--


--

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"dpb" wrote:

Deere, Caterpillar, etc., are doing just fine, thank you.

As are Boeing (commercial as well as military), Cessna,
Hawker/Beechcraft, ...

Illinois, Iowa, and Kansas come to mind, but Connecticut?

Didn't see the CT connection granted; thought it was meant as US.

Many of the problems in local areas has to do w/ onerous State and Local
laws and taxation policies combined w/ changing product demands and
competition pressures that haven't been responded to in effective manner
for one reason or another (or more generally, combination of all of the
above and more)...

--

In article ,
Frank Boettcher wrote:


Don't disagree but I would suggest that consistently bad management is
the root cause for creating and environment that allows the union to
get to that point. If the tail is wagging the dog it's cause the dog
stuck his head in the sand.

I completely agree. The fish rots from the top down. Just look at the
state of the economy. (Oooops, I'm Canadian and not allowed to observe a
cluster**** like the US economy, so I will ignore that this time. I
mean... WHERE-O-WHERE is that really cool Delta plant in Guelph, Ontario
now?)

I had a union. They were highly productive, cooperative,
collaborative, understanding of the realities of global economics and
in no way responsible for the demise of our plant. Horrible corporate
management strategy was the root cause for that.

Yup, seen that elsewhere as well. It is not exclusively 'the union's'
fault. There are always examples which preclude generalisations like
that. But zoom back and take a look at the big picture. Unions have not
encouraged investment much, have they? As soon as the company starts to
make money, it was GIMME GIMME. R & D spending has suffered lots too.

I have seen this first hand. As a small business owner, you want to
grow, create work for people who want it, make a few bucks. My guys see
that CNC as a threat instead of what it is, a way to be competitive and
be more secure in this environment. It helps secure their jobs, not
threaten it. (Besides, it doesn't show up hung-over, goodie for me,
right? I should get something for putting my nuts on the chopping block,
wot?)

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:26:05 -0700, "Rod & Betty Jo"
wrote:


Frank Boettcher wrote:
Yes Japanese branded but made in the USA. Brand new Toyota plant 20
miles from my house. 4000 jobs. Going to build trucks and SUV's?
Nope, going to build the Prius.

Two hours south is a Nissan plant. Building Altima's.

Thing is, they can come to this country, build what the market wants,
offer it in high quality and be successful. Why can't the US brands
do that?

Frank


I've read that while foreign U.S. based auto manufacturing wages are only a
few dollars per hour cheaper that in fact with retirement, medical costs,
benefits etc. that the difference is $70+ U.S. Vs $45 foreign owned. If
indeed true such a margin creates very significant cost difference issues.

Incidenty I've heard on a web woodworking forum that Delta was moving their
table saw manufacturing back to the U.S.....is it true? Rod

If it is, it's about time, before their reputation makes the last
circuit around the drain.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Robatoy wrote:

Oh... and **** Walmart. THEY are the sunsabitches who are largely
responsible for twisting the consumers' minds into believing that
everything is cheap and all is well. The average consumers have
painted themselves into a corner. Have fun with that, folks. See you
all in in the bread-lines.


If you haven't seen WALL-E yet, I highly recommend it.

"Buy n' Large", indeed!


Jerry

I'd push an AMERICAN vehicle, before I'd buy Foreign CRAP, that goes for
anything. I have a lot of old tools because of this Motto. Support your
economy , and it will support you,

Pet Peeve, Honda with bumper sticker SUPPORT your Troops,




"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
evodawg wrote:
evodawg wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "Ken"
wrote:
It means a lot of lost jobs, because of all the Jap cars
when will we wake up, buy AMERICAN. We've already lost the
electronics, next will be the Automotive, WAKE UP
AMERICA!!!!!!!!

Back in the 1970s, I used to see a lot of cars with bumper
stickers
saying "Buy What America Builds." They didn't understand then, any
more than you do
now. The U.S. auto makers went into the toilet because it took
them
-- and the UAW -- twenty years to get the message that they needed
to *build* what America *buys*.

Yes, and between then and now they've made these ridiculous pension
deals with the UAW. That's already dealing a death blow to the US
Auto Manufactures. I just don't like the fact you can't even go
into
a hardware store and buy a decent SCREW!!! What is this world
coming to???????

Or anything else for that matter.

I don't know what is is with you people that you can't find decent
products. Maybe if you worried more about function and less about
place of manufacture you'd be happier.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Robatoy wrote:
On Jul 31, 3:32 pm, B A R R Y wrote:
Frank Boettcher wrote:

I had a union. They were highly productive, cooperative,
collaborative, understanding of the realities of global economics and
in no way responsible for the demise of our plant. Horrible corporate
management strategy was the root cause for that.
My Toyota Tacoma is UAW built in Fremont, CA, in a former GM plant.

Same worker pool, same location, properly managed, building a
well-designed product.

"Build it right, or we close the plant."

How is that for an incentive package? (It's about frickin' time!)


Toyota has been building 'em right in that plant since 1991.

The same plant builds the Pontiac Vibe.

dpb wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
....

FWIW, Cessna is building it's newest aircraft in China.

Only partially

Nope.

http://www.aviation.com/flying/071128-ap-cessna-skycatcher-china.html

It's "Made in China".

I've been following the uproar since it started.

The expansion in Wichita is mostly Citation trainin facility, no? I
know they're building the Mustang in Indepependence.

Ken wrote:
I'd push an AMERICAN vehicle, before I'd buy Foreign CRAP, that goes for
anything. I have a lot of old tools because of this Motto. Support your
economy , and it will support you,

Pet Peeve, Honda with bumper sticker SUPPORT your Troops,


How many vehicles does Honda build in the US?

How many vehicles do the "American" companies build in Mexico and Canada?

Some road rager was having a fit the other day because he couldn't get
in front of me. Traffic was really congested. When he finally had a
chance to go around, I looked over and thought "Hey, that dude's
driving a 'VIBE' ... what a tough guy...". I can also imagine some
teenage girl asking the folks "can I take out the vibe tonight?"

Seriously. Who was stupid enough to come up with that name?

We have lots of smaller specialty manufacters, like Hamer guitars
(woodworking content), Kaman music (Ovation), Peter Paul (as in Mounds),
Cannondale, Horton Brasses (woodworking content), etc...

Isn't Peter Paul shutting down their CT operation? But Stanley (woodworking
content) still manufactures some stuff in New Britski, don't they?

Lee
--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

in 73730 20080731 203956 Robatoy wrote:
On Jul 31, 3:32=A0pm, B A R R Y wrote:
Frank Boettcher wrote:

I had a union. =A0They were highly productive, cooperative,
collaborative, understanding of the realities of global economics and
in no way responsible for the demise of our plant. =A0Horrible corporat=
e
management strategy was the root cause for that.

My Toyota Tacoma is UAW built in Fremont, CA, in a former GM plant.

Same worker pool, same location, properly managed, building a
well-designed product.

"Build it right, or we close the plant."

How is that for an incentive package? (It's about frickin' time!)

Pretty much the same with Nissan in northern England.

Lee Gordon wrote:
We have lots of smaller specialty manufacters, like Hamer guitars
(woodworking content), Kaman music (Ovation), Peter Paul (as in Mounds),
Cannondale, Horton Brasses (woodworking content), etc...

Isn't Peter Paul shutting down their CT operation?

I googled this, and man, you're right!

Hershey moved Mounds and Almond Joy to VA. That sucks!


But Stanley (woodworking
content) still manufactures some stuff in New Britski, don't they?

I'm not so sure. I know a guy at Stanley that makes regular trips to
Mexico City, though. I have to remember and ask.

We've still got Horton in Cromwell and the genuine Forstener bit in
Berlin. ESPN should count as a decent sized factory. G

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
el...
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Of course if this is a raw material purchase at Lowes or H/D, you already
accet the fact you are buying garbage.

There are a couple exceptions to this. I know of at least one person who
buys S2S secondary wood there because he can pick through the whole stack
and only take *perfect* boards.

Done that. I was in HD picking up something and needed some clear pine but
didn't want to drive all the way to my wood supplier for a couple of boards.
Went over to the wood racks and there was no clear pine being sold. But, I
looked at some pine in the #3 pine stack and there were 2 eight foot boards
without a single knot, no cupping, no warping. I picked them up and cashed
out. Probably paid a little more than my wood supplier would charge, but I
didn't have to burn gas nor take the time to get there.

Ken wrote:
It means a lot of lost jobs, because of all the Jap cars
when will we wake up, buy AMERICAN. We've already lost the electronics,
next will be the Automotive, WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!

Look again. Most of the "Japanese" cars sold in America are built in
America, and largely with American parts. I wrote a report on this
about ten years ago, but I can't find what I did with it.

I had an altercation with a guy about driving an "American" truck. He
was in a Ford Ranger, and I was in a Nissan Hard Body. He didn't
believe me when I pointed out that his truck was made in Mexico and mine
was made in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I told him to go look up his VIN
and see for himself.

The latest players in the US car market are the Koreans, with Hyundai
and Kia. Not too long ago Hyundai announced that they were going to
open a US plant and start building cars here.

In fact, about the only car manufacturers that are taking their plants
out of the US are The Big Three, who are largely moving to Canada and
Mexico. Even so, the way the rules are written, because they're US
based corporations this is still considered "domestic" production.

So before you look at the manufacturer's badge and make an assumption
you should find out where the vehicle was actually built.



AP

Alan Petrillo wrote:
Ken wrote:
It means a lot of lost jobs, because of all the Jap cars
when will we wake up, buy AMERICAN. We've already lost the
electronics, next will be the Automotive, WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!

Look again. Most of the "Japanese" cars sold in America are built in
America, and largely with American parts. I wrote a report on this
about ten years ago, but I can't find what I did with it.

I had an altercation with a guy about driving an "American" truck. He
was in a Ford Ranger, and I was in a Nissan Hard Body. He didn't
believe me when I pointed out that his truck was made in Mexico and
mine was made in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I told him to go look up
his VIN and see for himself.

The latest players in the US car market are the Koreans, with Hyundai
and Kia. Not too long ago Hyundai announced that they were going to
open a US plant and start building cars here.

In fact, about the only car manufacturers that are taking their plants
out of the US are The Big Three, who are largely moving to Canada and
Mexico. Even so, the way the rules are written, because they're US
based corporations this is still considered "domestic" production.

So before you look at the manufacturer's badge and make an assumption
you should find out where the vehicle was actually built.

And as far as consumer electronics (which is the industry that has been
"lost"--the US still makes radars and whatnot just fine) the US consumer
electronics industry shot itself in the foot by not jumping on the solid
state bandwagon when transistors first came out. I don't blame that
Japanese for that at all--they were working hard at coming up with
innovative new products while the US consumer electronics industry was
stagnating.

In article om, Alan Petrillo wrote:

So before you look at the manufacturer's badge and make an assumption
you should find out where the vehicle was actually built.

And where the parts were made. My son's Firebird was built in the U.S., but an
awful lot of the individual parts are stamped "Made in Canada".

on 6/15/2009 3:16 AM (ET) Alan Petrillo wrote the following:
Ken wrote:
It means a lot of lost jobs, because of all the Jap cars
when will we wake up, buy AMERICAN. We've already lost the
electronics, next will be the Automotive, WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!

Look again. Most of the "Japanese" cars sold in America are built in
America, and largely with American parts. I wrote a report on this
about ten years ago, but I can't find what I did with it.

I had an altercation with a guy about driving an "American" truck. He
was in a Ford Ranger, and I was in a Nissan Hard Body. He didn't
believe me when I pointed out that his truck was made in Mexico and
mine was made in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I told him to go look up
his VIN and see for himself.

My Nissan hardbody was made in Smyrna, Tennessee. My old 1976 Ford Elite
was made in Canada.
All Ford Crown Victorias have been made in St. Thomas, Ontario, Canada
since 1992.


The latest players in the US car market are the Koreans, with Hyundai
and Kia. Not too long ago Hyundai announced that they were going to
open a US plant and start building cars here.

In fact, about the only car manufacturers that are taking their plants
out of the US are The Big Three, who are largely moving to Canada and
Mexico. Even so, the way the rules are written, because they're US
based corporations this is still considered "domestic" production.

So before you look at the manufacturer's badge and make an assumption
you should find out where the vehicle was actually built.



AP


--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article om, Alan
Petrillo wrote:

So before you look at the manufacturer's badge and make an assumption
you should find out where the vehicle was actually built.

And where the parts were made. My son's Firebird was built in the U.S.,
but an
awful lot of the individual parts are stamped "Made in Canada".

I once had two GM Olds Sierras, one made in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada and one
made in Georgia, USA, the city I don't remember. While they were basically
the same design, there were significant differences in the construction. The
Canadian car lasted for about 10 years while the Georgia car was nothing but
trouble, transmission had to be replaced, I was on the third rack and pinion
steering, it would stall going over every speed bump plus other problems.

willshak wrote:
All Ford Crown Victorias have been made in St. Thomas, Ontario, Canada
since 1992.


Just a little aside to all those who complain about creeping
"socialism". From what I understand Canada has much stronger
protections for workers, AND national health care, yet our great
American auto manufacturers find it cheaper to build cars and parts in
Canada than here in the good ol' "free-market" United States.

Maybe, just maybe, to achieve living conditions that benefit more people
rather than a few at the top, it's worthwhile to consider ways of
running a society that virtually every other industrialized country has
adopted.

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:05:14 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

snip
... the US consumer
electronics industry shot itself in the foot by not jumping on the solid
state bandwagon when transistors first came out.
snip

hahaha... I got a laugh out of this.

Its not that the US industry was caught flat footed. The US was
innovating... Doing everything to fight the transistor.

First there was the Compactron tube. Remember those... It jammed the
functionality of multiple tubes into one envelope and cost a fortune
to replace.

Then there was a whole slew of 1 volt filament tubes that enabled the
US industry to make "portable" radios that ran off a bunch of D cells
and a 45v B battery.

And finally there was the "Nuvistor". It's name even sounds like
Transistor. It was a teeny little tube designed specifically to fight
against the transistor. It looked just like a transistor too.

So yep, we killed ourselves. But it's not that we weren't innovating.
It's just that we were innovating the wrong things.

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:16:09 -0400, Alan Petrillo
wrote:

Ken wrote:
It means a lot of lost jobs, because of all the Jap cars
when will we wake up, buy AMERICAN. We've already lost the electronics,
next will be the Automotive, WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!

Look again. Most of the "Japanese" cars sold in America are built in
America, and largely with American parts. I wrote a report on this
about ten years ago, but I can't find what I did with it.

I had an altercation with a guy about driving an "American" truck. He
was in a Ford Ranger, and I was in a Nissan Hard Body. He didn't
believe me when I pointed out that his truck was made in Mexico and mine
was made in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I told him to go look up his VIN
and see for himself.

The latest players in the US car market are the Koreans, with Hyundai
and Kia. Not too long ago Hyundai announced that they were going to
open a US plant and start building cars here.

In fact, about the only car manufacturers that are taking their plants
out of the US are The Big Three, who are largely moving to Canada and
Mexico. Even so, the way the rules are written, because they're US
based corporations this is still considered "domestic" production.

So before you look at the manufacturer's badge and make an assumption
you should find out where the vehicle was actually built.



AP

How true - my 2008 Toyota Tacoma was built in California on the same
line that built some Pontiac models that year. The previous vehicle
was a 1989 Nissan pickup that was built in Tennessee.

A true US-built car?
One that's built in your garage, using 50-year-old tools and a
40-year-old Briggs & Stratton engine ;-)

John

On Jun 15, 10:35*am, "EXT" wrote:
The
Canadian car lasted for about 10 years while the Georgia car was nothing but
trouble, [snipped for effect]

THIS!

scritch wrote:
willshak wrote:
All Ford Crown Victorias have been made in St. Thomas, Ontario,
Canada since 1992.


Just a little aside to all those who complain about creeping
"socialism". From what I understand Canada has much stronger
protections for workers, AND national health care, yet our great
American auto manufacturers find it cheaper to build cars and parts in
Canada than here in the good ol' "free-market" United States.

It costs GM $1,200 per vehicle less to build cars in Canada than in the U.S.
because they don't have the cost of an employee health plan. However
everything has to be paid for, and the monthly health insurance fee
Canadians pay only covers a tiny fraction of their govt.-run provincial
health insurance expenditures. So guess who gets to pick up the difference?
That's right, the taxpayer. Unfortunately there's never enough tax money
fill the gap, so the quality of health care in Canada has been declining for
some time. In 2005 a lawsuit by a guy who had been waiting over a year for
hip-replacement surgery went all the way to their supreme court which ruled
that prohibiting people from going outside the govt. system was
unconstitutional given that life-threatening delays in diagnosis and
treatment had become widespread.

Maybe, just maybe, to achieve living conditions that benefit more
people rather than a few at the top, it's worthwhile to consider ways
of running a society that virtually every other industrialized
country has adopted.

Sure, the U.S. health insurance companies manage to absorb a quarter of all
the money they take in for administrative overhead, double what the govt.
insurance plans in Canada consume internally. Ten percent of what Americans
with insurance pay is "shifted" by the health care industry to cover their
costs when they have to treat uninsured patients, aside from billions more
in tax dollars. And one in six Americans has no health insurance. The U.S.
system (or lack of a system) is a shambles, but just copying the Canadian
system is probably not the solution.

dicko wrote:


hahaha... I got a laugh out of this.

Its not that the US industry was caught flat footed. The US was
innovating... Doing everything to fight the transistor.


So yep, we killed ourselves. But it's not that we weren't innovating.
It's just that we were innovating the wrong things.

Except at the beginning:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/p...956/index.html


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
dicko wrote:


hahaha... I got a laugh out of this.
Its not that the US industry was caught flat footed. The US was
innovating... Doing everything to fight the transistor.


So yep, we killed ourselves. But it's not that we weren't innovating.
It's just that we were innovating the wrong things.

Except at the beginning:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/p...956/index.html

I think the previous wasn't particularly accurate assessment of the
overall state of affairs. Philco had the Transac S-2000 series computer
out which included them new-fangled solid state devices quite early
(1958). They had hybrid models of the series even earlier (showing my
age, I used them... ).

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102646276

The application in consumer products was a different story as the
economics weren't the same.

--

"dpb" wrote:

The application in consumer products was a different story as the
economics weren't the same.

I don't know whether you wish to consider the automotive alternator a
consumer product or not, but like the automotive radio, we can thank
Motorola for its existance..

For the alternator to be practical, a 3 phase rectifier bridge was
required.

Prior to the solid state rectifier, germanium was used, which was a
problem.

There simply is enough germanium to satisfy automotive production for
a year, thus pricing restricted it's use to police and emergency
vehicles.

When the solid state 25A, push in diode became available, it sold for
$100 + $1/PIV and you needed 100PIV.

Thus a solid state diode was $200 ea or $1,200/bridge.

Needless to say, those early diodes were guarded with great care by
engineering.

With that as the background, in walks Motorola to the big 3 with a
proposition:

You guarantee Motorola 10,000,000 units/year, we will build a plant
and sell diodes to you for $0.25 EACH.

Thus the automotive alternator became a reality.

Lew