"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Dan" wrote in message

of things; I guess woodworking is no different. But referring to
someone's
attempt to simply realize the full potential of a sizable investment as
"OCD" strikes me as childish name calling and requires no further
response.

Bzzzzt! ... If you'd been around a little longer, you'd realized that
"OCD"
was a reference to Ed's self characterization in a recent thread on
plywood
manufacture.

Yeah, right.


You apology is accepted.

You've got to be kidding me.

"Dan" wrote in message


You've got to be kidding me.

Actually, you're kidding yourself if you think it was in reference to you.
Nonetheless, I'm indeed sorry that you took it that way.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Dan" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote in message
Bzzzzt! ... If you'd been around a little longer, you'd realized that
"OCD" was a reference to Ed's self characterization in a recent thread on
plywood manufacture.

Yeah, right.

Here ya go, Bubba:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...f55af26b79bd38

.... read it and weep.

You apology is accepted.

You've got to be kidding me.

Nope, as I said, and as you see from the above, you were actually kidding
yourself.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/08/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message
"Swingman" wrote in message

LOL ... the key to actually "making furniture" is to make more more
sawdust than OCD measurements.

I'd like to think that there's a happy medium between those two extremes.

Well, Ed ... and since you haven't noticed, that pretty well sums up my
point all along about "making sawdust".

Certainly, you can't avoid making some sawdust while woodworking. But,
the
guy who spends all his time doing test cuts and reworking joints doesn't
really have much authority on the topic of machinery skills and the need
for
proper alignment. Neither does the guy who can't apply his machinery
skills
to solve real world woodworking problems.

Nor will you get an argument from me on that score ... and we also need to
keep in mind that the vast majority of woodworkers, even with today's
technology, are doing excellent work without a TS saw capable of being
aligned, or maintaining alignment, to that thousandths of a gnats ass.

Some guys, when they first get an alignment jig, are like a kid who has
never had candy before. They eat so much of it that they end up with a
tummy ache.

Rarely happens to those who don't fixate on alignment at the exclusion of
working wood

FWIW, my table saw is aligned to ".003" all around, which has pretty much
always been proven by the end product ... you just provided the verification
.... thanks, again!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Here ya go, Bubba:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...f55af26b79bd38

So what? The 2 discussions are in no way connected. He also uses the word
"the" many times in his posts. Does that mean every time you use that word
it's in reference to Ed? I originated a post about measurements, and it was
obviously my concerns about them which you were characterizing as "OCD".
Your comment in no way implies anything else. Instead of being an adult and
apologizing, you're trotting out this bull****.

PLONK, mallethead.

"Dan" babbled some nonsense and plonked
"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Here ya go, Bubba:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...f55af26b79bd38

So what? The 2 discussions are in no way connected. He also uses the
word "the" many times in his posts. Does that mean every time you use
that word it's in reference to Ed? I originated a post about
measurements, and it was obviously my concerns about them which you were
characterizing as "OCD". Your comment in no way implies anything else.
Instead of being an adult and apologizing, you're trotting out this
bull****.

PLONK, mallethead.


I always wonder about these guys. They get all upset about a light hearted
remark. And then shut themselves off from the real resources of the
newsgroup.

I am not going to defend swingman. Not only did he not do anything, I can't
imagine anybody taking Dan seriously. And I am sure the Mr Bennet would
have found Mr Swingman's comment to be funny.

This is a classic example of style over substance. Or political correctness
run amok. OCD is a term that many overacheivers use to describe themselves.
It is not the insult that some folks imagine. Ed Bennet used it to describe
himself.

Is it OK for Ed to characterize himself in this fashion? If so, are others
guilty of some kinda cosmic trangression if they describe Ed in the same
fashion?

Maybe it is a joke thing. The Joke Police want to outlaw all humor. A joke
was made. Most of us laughed. Somebody went nuts and imagined all kinds of
horrors because we commited a cardinal sin of laughing at a joke.
Apparently this guy suffers from Humor Impairment Syndrome.

I have a simple criteria for reading posts. Are they of value to me? Are
they educational? Are they enjoyable? Most of the folks who post good
things on this forum are also blessed with a sense of humor. It makes this a
fun place.

"Dan" wrote in message
. ..
"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Here ya go, Bubba:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...f55af26b79bd38

So what? The 2 discussions are in no way connected. He also uses the
word "the" many times in his posts. Does that mean every time you use
that word it's in reference to Ed? I originated a post about
measurements, and it was obviously my concerns about them which you were
characterizing as "OCD". Your comment in no way implies anything else.
Instead of being an adult and apologizing, you're trotting out this
bull****.

PLONK, mallethead.


Wow, do you usually make friends this easily?

On Sep 22, 6:55 pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
I always wonder about these guys. They get all upset about a light hearted
remark. And then shut themselves off from the real resources of the
newsgroup.

I think he just got fed up with all the mocking taunts. Dan had a
real problem with real consequences and he was looking for real
answers. Emotocons should be used to indicate the meaning behind the
statement, not as a license to belittle someone.

I don't think Dan shut himself off from "real" resources. After all,
swingman didn't actually offer a solution to the problem, just a way
to live with it. Which is pretty surprising given that he owns such
an expensive tablesaw, a good alignment tool, and has 30 years of
experience.

I am not going to defend swingman. Not only did he not do anything, I can't
imagine anybody taking Dan seriously. And I am sure the Mr Bennet would
have found Mr Swingman's comment to be funny.

I'm certainly not going to defend swingman either. I think he should
have a lot more to offer than a bunch of belittling taunts. Just look
at his web site. Clearly, he shouldn't need to put others down in
order to feel good about himself.

This is a classic example of style over substance. Or political correctness
run amok. OCD is a term that many overacheivers use to describe themselves.
It is not the insult that some folks imagine. Ed Bennet used it to describe
himself.

Taken by itself, I don't think the OCD comment is the problem. But,
conbined with all the other comments (including the "your apology is
accepted") it is clearly the last straw in a couple of bales worth of
demeaning statements.

Is it OK for Ed to characterize himself in this fashion?

I think so.

If so, are others
guilty of some kinda cosmic trangression if they describe Ed in the same
fashion?

Nope. I think we all want the manufacturers of our tools to be
obsessed with quality and accuracy. And, I think the finest
woodworking comes from people who are obsessed with the details. So,
I'm always surprised to hear some self proclaimed expert making fun of
detail oriented people. It makes me think twice about their
"expertise".

Maybe it is a joke thing. The Joke Police want to outlaw all humor. A joke
was made. Most of us laughed. Somebody went nuts and imagined all kinds of
horrors because we commited a cardinal sin of laughing at a joke.
Apparently this guy suffers from Humor Impairment Syndrome.

Well, while I don't mind being characterized as obsessive and
compulsive when it comes to quality and accuracy, I do mind having my
products described as the biggest waste of time for anal woodworkers.
It mocks me, my products, and my customers. And, making fun of the
real solution to Dan's problem is pretty annoying too.

An alalogy might help. What if someone was going around saying that
the pictures on swingman's web site weren't of his work. He's really
a hack that can't put together a plywood box to save his life. He has
a shop full of expensive tools and machinery but can't figure out how
to use them. The only people who hire him are those who have more
money than brains. That's why he taunts people in the newsgroup - he
isn't busy doing woodworking and it's the only way he can feel good
about himself. He couldn't have solved Dan's problem in a million
years. ;-)

Does the smiley make it all better? Hmmm....swingman might even get a
bit defensive.

I realize his comments were made in jest (since swingman is one of my
customers) but people will read them for years to come and may not
realize that it's self deprecating (until they read this). And, the
smiley doesn't really make it any better.

I have a simple criteria for reading posts. Are they of value to me? Are
they educational? Are they enjoyable? Most of the folks who post good
things on this forum are also blessed with a sense of humor. It makes this a
fun place.

I think Dan probably ascribes to the same philosophy. He just didn't
appreciate being the butt end of this particular humor. Good friends
can poke and jibe at eachother without insult. Not quite the same
thing when dealing with strangers.

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

Ed Bennett spewed forth delusional froth from the assumed moral high ground:

snip

mocks me, my products, and my customers.

Tsk, tsk. Don't flatter yourself, Ed. Go make some sawdust ... there's a
slim chance that it just may help with that wrongheaded, humorless, self
righteousness.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Ed Bennett spewed forth delusional froth from the assumed moral high
ground:

snip

mocks me, my products, and my customers.

Tsk, tsk. Don't flatter yourself, Ed. Go make some sawdust ... there's a
slim chance that it just may help with that wrongheaded, humorless, self
righteousness.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)



Careful Swingman, the bait has been carefully placed and the fisherman has
spied a catch that he probably hopes he can reel in. ;~)

Subject

There are over a billion Chinese people.

My guess is less than 100 million can read this thread.

Of that 100 million, probably less than 50 million can understand the
thread.

Of that 50 million, probably less than 25 give a **** about the thread.

Lew

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:27:01 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Subject

There are over a billion Chinese people.

My guess is less than 100 million can read this thread.

Of that 100 million, probably less than 50 million can understand the
thread.

Of that 50 million, probably less than 25 give a **** about the thread.

Lew


Yes but a few thousand of them are making table saws, and are insuring
that ole Ed will have a bright and prosperous future selling those
gadgets to try to reset them. :~)

Frank

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:23:43 -0700, "Dan" wrote:


Well this has been an eye opening thread and I think I've seen the
light. You see, when I needed to upgrade my table saw I went back to
"salvage" (the place where freight damgage, dealer inventory resets,
individuals who do not believe in the laws of random variability, and
the rare individual who actually has a real problem send their units
back to) and asked Jerry if he had a Unisaw. Says Frank I've got this
one that came back "alledged defective" (the usual RMA cause) but I've
checked it and can't find the reason (the usual outcome) it's within
specs., so I say let me go pay finance and I'll back my truck up. I
never checked the saw for alignment that day or ever.

Now that was 13 years ago or so, and I've made a whole lot of
furniture since then with this saw and while my friends and realtives
comment favorably on my work, as the builder I know where all the
flaws are that they don't see.

I've always assumed that the flaws were human error, where I measure a
little wrong, or skipped a step here or there, or whatever. But now
I'm beginning to think I can blame all those flaws on the saw.

So I guess I need to get one of those gadgets that Ed sells and get to
tweaking this saw so I can achieve the perfection that I know exists
out there somewhere.

Frank

For many years I used my father's tablesaw (still in use today) but
the first table saw I purchased was a Sears Crapsman (about 25 years
ago). I learned a heck of a lot of woodworking on that machine and
never received a single negative comment from anyone about the quality
of my work. There was always a healthy amount of test cuts, re-
working joints and "creative fixes" involved in the process and I
figured that it was all a matter of skill (and a lack thereof). If I
could refine my skills enough then these problems would go away. But,
it didn't quite work out that way. Instead, I learned which tasks and
design elements proved to be the most troublesome and time consuming
so that I could avoid them. It struck me one day when I was trying to
talk a customer (an interior designer) out of doing what she wanted me
to do (mitered corners). I was being a brainless moron: going nowhere
and doing nothing. Pretty soon I'd be making kitchen cabinets as a
sub-contractor instead of furniture for designers.

Having the benefit of a formal education, I had the ability to work
through a problem in a logical manner. I could examine symptoms,
recognize specific causes, and develop systematic solutions to resolve
them. I purchased the proper instruments (dial indicator, magnetic
base, calipers, etc.) so that I could examine my machines to determine
what could be done to reduce or eliminate the test cuts, re-work, and
"creative fixes". Basically, I had decided to devote myself to
improving my machinery skills.

It didn't take me long to recognize major problem areas. The first
thing I did was replace the rip fence. It proved to be an
astoundingly amazing improvement. So much so that I decided that the
entire saw was a lost cause. I replaced it with the Unisaw that I
have today and realized yet another quantum leap in the quality of
work that came right off the machine. I probably could have continued
to use the Sears saw and optimize its performance but I was impatient.

During this same time, I was developing tools and techniques for
eliminating test cuts and rework. With the help of a machinist friend
and some engineers, I combined these tools and techniques into the
first TS-Aligner. That was in the spring of 1990 - more than 17 years
ago. I tested it on a commission from a designer that I would have
flatly turned down a year earlier: a night stand made in the shape of
an "A". Every joint came together at a compound angle (including the
dovetailed drawer sides). I pulled it off without a test cut. No re-
work. It was done to budget in record time.

For years I had fought against a poorly maintained junker saw thinking
that my woodworking skills were deficient. In reality, it was my
machinery skills that needed help. The quality of my wood work was
never the issue, it was the enormous time and effort that went into
making anything that went beyond simple square joinery, stock molding
profiles, curves, angles, shapes, etc. I was wasting time and effort
fixing everything that the machine did wrong - leading me to avoid
projects that could stretch and develop my woodworking skills.

There are a number of people who want to turn this into flame fest
against machinery and its proper alignment. They cite their personal
anecdotes about how many years they have been producing fine
woodworking without any regard for alignment. In addition to being
exasperating, this is nothing more than a straw man argument. The
issue has nothing to do with $2000 saws and alignment to within a
"thousandths of a gnat's ass". Amazing woodworking has been done for
thousands of years before table saws were even invented. Nobody is
saying that you have to spend a certain amount of money, or have a
certain machine, or align it in a certain way before you can do fine
woodworking. People who rant and rave on this point expose themselves
as extremely insecure.

This thread is about helping one person to make the most of a recent
machinery investment. It's about helping him to learn and apply some
machinery skills. It is not a waste of time; it is a way to avoid
wasting a lot of time and effort. People who can't sit by without
ridiculing him and continually citing examples of how well they get by
without any machinery skills are saying a lot more about themselves
than they realize.

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message

This thread is about helping one person to make the most of a recent
machinery investment.

That's real sweet, Ed ... but the way you keep it going it's starting to
sound a whole lot more like pious, holier than thou, spam.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:00:15 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote:



snipped some personal anecdotal information with no offense intended



There are a number of people who want to turn this into flame fest
against machinery and its proper alignment. They cite their personal
anecdotes about how many years they have been producing fine
woodworking without any regard for alignment.

Well, I didn't see that (flame fest). I saw opinions offered about
whether it was necessary to align a saw to within a few thousandths or
if you could do work that was just as good at .016" 45 degree
alignment. If the OP was not interested in opinions that might vary
significantly, and would not find that helpful he probably should have
contacted you directly rather than posting on a usenet forum or at
least ignored the opposing opinions.

Obviously, his opinion is that you* have* to align a saw to a "gnat's
ass", and I'm happy your were able to help him. Those who don't share
that opinion and offer an alternative "of just cut some wood" are not
engaging in a "flame fest" IMHO.



In addition to being
exasperating, this is nothing more than a straw man argument. The
issue has nothing to do with $2000 saws and alignment to within a
"thousandths of a gnat's ass". Amazing woodworking has been done for
thousands of years before table saws were even invented. Nobody is
saying that you have to spend a certain amount of money, or have a
certain machine, or align it in a certain way before you can do fine
woodworking. People who rant and rave on this point expose themselves
as extremely insecure.

ranting and raving? A little touchy are we. Need to work on that
sense of humor.

This thread is about helping one person to make the most of a recent
machinery investment. It's about helping him to learn and apply some
machinery skills. It is not a waste of time; it is a way to avoid
wasting a lot of time and effort. People who can't sit by without
ridiculing him and continually citing examples of how well they get by
without any machinery skills are saying a lot more about themselves
than they realize.

All the above eloquent Ed, however, some may feel it is a waste of
time, and I believe you may be the only one here who has a vested
financial interest in having everyone believe that it is not a waste
of time.

Frank

El

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Sep 24, 2:21 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Ed Bennett" wrote in message
This thread is about helping one person to make the most of a recent
machinery investment.

That's real sweet, Ed ... but the way you keep it going it's starting to
sound a whole lot more like pious, holier than thou, spam.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Sorry about the delay in responding. I've been pretty busy and
haven't even been able to manage even one post per day.

Hmmmm....and I was thinking that the thread was starting to sound like
the glorification of ignorance. Funny how two people can look at the
same thing and get two completely different impressions.

Spam? No, it was just a story - much like the one that Frank told. I
wrote it with the hope that I could inspire some to approach their
woodworking in a more intelligent manner (and perhaps discourage
others from ridiculing them in the process).

I received a number of email messages in response. This one pretty
much represents the overall sentiment:

"I hope the idiocy here doesn't prevent you from participating in the
future. It generally prevents me, but I learn a lot just by watching.
I learn because folks like you dare to participate, financial interest
or not."

The group used to be a lot more active and it was pretty rare that
people would get flamed and ridiculed for asking legitimate questions
or making a genuine request for help. At the worst, people would get
told to search the archives. It would seem that things have become a
bit stifled.

Pious? Holier that thou? Hmmm....again, two people can see things in
completely different ways. The situation reminds me of how Galileo
was treated when his innovative ideas threatened the pious ignorance
of the time.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message
ups.com...


Pious? Holier that thou? Hmmm....again, two people can see things in
completely different ways. The situation reminds me of how Galileo
was treated when his innovative ideas threatened the pious ignorance
of the time.



Oh no - you're not going to get up on some gilded throne, and try to
proclaim that the world is really round now... are you?

--

-Mike-

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message

It would seem that things have become a
bit stifled.

Only if you don't recall the "Bennet War" flamefests that polluted this
forum, ad infinitum, at one point.

Pious? Holier that thou? Hmmm....again, two people can see things in
completely different ways. The situation reminds me of how Galileo
was treated when his innovative ideas threatened the pious ignorance
of the time.

Well Galileo, go back and re-examine your public mea culpa from the above
.... you're slipping back to your old ways.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sep 24, 2:46 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
Well, I didn't see that (flame fest).

Perhaps the various eruptions escaped your notice; re-read the thread
when you finish here.

I saw opinions offered about
whether it was necessary to align a saw to within a few thousandths or
if you could do work that was just as good at .016" 45 degree
alignment. If the OP was not interested in opinions that might vary
significantly, and would not find that helpful he probably should have
contacted you directly rather than posting on a usenet forum or at
least ignored the opposing opinions.

There were a number of solutions and opinions offered. I thought that
your initial ideas were pretty darn good. If I had determined that
Dan was doing everything correctly and still getting the wrong
results, I would likely have deferred to some of the things that you
had mentioned.

Dan offered very polite answers to all the alternative opinions. You
probably just didn't notice it when he explained why it wasn't
acceptable for him to ignore the situation. Or, perhaps you just
weren't willing to accept the idea that he didn't share your opinion.

Obviously, his opinion is that you* have* to align a saw to a "gnat's
ass", and I'm happy your were able to help him. Those who don't share
that opinion and offer an alternative "of just cut some wood" are not
engaging in a "flame fest" IMHO.

The "gnat's ass" comment wasn't his words. It's the sort of
derogatory term used by what you have pretty much referred to as
"sharing an alternative opinion". When people use disparaging,
critical, insulting, offensive, deprecating, or belittling terms I
pretty much call it a flame fest. There was an effort made to
discredit those who did not share this particular opinion.

It's not that an alternative was offered, it's that it was repeatedly
offered with ever increasing fervor even after Dan had politely
dismissed it. Before long, the person who would spend $2000 on a
table saw and expect it to work properly was being represented as an
idiot and an alignment tool is the biggest waste of time for the anal
woodworker. You tell me, in your honest opinion; wouldn't that make
you feel a bit steamed?

ranting and raving? A little touchy are we. Need to work on that
sense of humor.

I would have said "frothing at the mouth" but "ranting and raving"
fits the medium better. This reminds me of a proverb:

"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows and death, so is the man
who deceives his neighbor, and says, "Was I not joking?" "

The "sense of humor" thing is wearing a bit thin, don't you think?
Let's admit it, I got your collective dander up a bit when I said: "As
you have now discovered, the situation isn't quite as tolerable as
some have said." I can see how this sort of statement can be
threatening to someone who would take it as commentary on the quality
of their woodworking. I assure you it was not meant in such a
manner. But, as I have already mentioned, responding as if threatened
is very revealing.

All the above eloquent Ed, however, some may feel it is a waste of
time, and I believe you may be the only one here who has a vested
financial interest in having everyone believe that it is not a waste
of time.

Based on what Maxwell said, and numerous email messages received, I'd
have to say that this opinion has little if any merit. Think about
the logic of Dan's situation. This particular alignment is pretty
much a one time event. If it takes him a week to get it right (and it
only took one evening), then he can count on having accurate bevel
cuts forever on that saw. If he ignores it and "just makes
sawdust" (as you and swingman have so exasperatingly recommended),
then he will need to rework every single bevel cut he makes on that
saw in order to obtain tight joints. Now, in your honest opinion,
which is the bigger waste of time?

Either way, the woodworking is going to be the same. Both methods
will end up producing high quality joints. But, one is clearly more
time intensive than the other. There is some merit to futzing around
with the "OCD measurements".

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:11:39 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote:


The situation reminds me of how Galileo
was treated when his innovative ideas threatened the pious ignorance
of the time.


LOL. Ed, please tell me this is a troll. Or do you actually feel
that anyone who does not share your opinion on this matter is
ignorant?

Thanks,
Ed Bennett

On Sep 27, 1:59 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
Only if you don't recall the "Bennet War" flamefests that polluted this
forum, ad infinitum, at one point.

I do recall them. I don't recall you though. Perhaps you went by
another moniker? As you "recall", it wasn't about flaming newbies for
asking questions or looking for help - jumping all over their ass for
wanting to make the most of their new table saw.

Back then the demigod who ran around the group picking on people was
Bennett Leeds (we used to go by real names back in '95). Disagree
with Mr. Leeds and you had a flame buddy for life. Today it's....

Well Galileo, go back and re-examine your public mea culpa from the above
... you're slipping back to your old ways.

Really. And all of this has what to do with the topic of this thread?

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:38:35 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote:

On Sep 24, 2:46 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
Well, I didn't see that (flame fest).

Perhaps the various eruptions escaped your notice; re-read the thread
when you finish here.

I did. Before I posted. It was initially and remains my "opinion"
that it was not a flame fest.


I saw opinions offered about
whether it was necessary to align a saw to within a few thousandths or
if you could do work that was just as good at .016" 45 degree
alignment. If the OP was not interested in opinions that might vary
significantly, and would not find that helpful he probably should have
contacted you directly rather than posting on a usenet forum or at
least ignored the opposing opinions.

There were a number of solutions and opinions offered. I thought that
your initial ideas were pretty darn good. If I had determined that
Dan was doing everything correctly and still getting the wrong
results, I would likely have deferred to some of the things that you
had mentioned.

Dan offered very polite answers to all the alternative opinions. You
probably just didn't notice it when he explained why it wasn't
acceptable for him to ignore the situation. Or, perhaps you just
weren't willing to accept the idea that he didn't share your opinion.

I care not if he or you or anyone in this group shares my opinion.
That's what opinions are all about.

Obviously, his opinion is that you* have* to align a saw to a "gnat's
ass", and I'm happy your were able to help him. Those who don't share
that opinion and offer an alternative "of just cut some wood" are not
engaging in a "flame fest" IMHO.

The "gnat's ass" comment wasn't his words. It's the sort of
derogatory term used by what you have pretty much referred to as
"sharing an alternative opinion". When people use disparaging,
critical, insulting, offensive, deprecating, or belittling terms I
pretty much call it a flame fest. There was an effort made to
discredit those who did not share this particular opinion.

????? Derogatory term? What planet are you from?

It's not that an alternative was offered, it's that it was repeatedly
offered with ever increasing fervor even after Dan had politely
dismissed it. Before long, the person who would spend $2000 on a
table saw and expect it to work properly was being represented as an
idiot and an alignment tool is the biggest waste of time for the anal
woodworker. You tell me, in your honest opinion; wouldn't that make
you feel a bit steamed?

Might, if that was what had happened. Who exactly called him an idot
or expressed that his position on the matter was because of ignorance?
And I don't thin an alignment tool was mentioned until long after his
problem was essentially solved to his satisfaction.


ranting and raving? A little touchy are we. Need to work on that
sense of humor.

I would have said "frothing at the mouth" but "ranting and raving"
fits the medium better. This reminds me of a proverb:

"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows and death, so is the man
who deceives his neighbor, and says, "Was I not joking?" "

The "sense of humor" thing is wearing a bit thin, don't you think?
Let's admit it, I got your collective dander up a bit when I said: "As
you have now discovered, the situation isn't quite as tolerable as
some have said." I can see how this sort of statement can be
threatening to someone who would take it as commentary on the quality
of their woodworking. I assure you it was not meant in such a
manner. But, as I have already mentioned, responding as if threatened
is very revealing.

Responding as if threatened? LOL.

All the above eloquent Ed, however, some may feel it is a waste of
time, and I believe you may be the only one here who has a vested
financial interest in having everyone believe that it is not a waste
of time.

Based on what Maxwell said, and numerous email messages received, I'd
have to say that this opinion has little if any merit.


That statement pretty much sums up who is intolerant of the opinions
of others.


Think about
the logic of Dan's situation. This particular alignment is pretty
much a one time event. If it takes him a week to get it right (and it
only took one evening), then he can count on having accurate bevel
cuts forever on that saw. If he ignores it and "just makes
sawdust" (as you and swingman have so exasperatingly recommended),
then he will need to rework every single bevel cut he makes on that
saw in order to obtain tight joints. Now, in your honest opinion,
which is the bigger waste of time?

Made twelve ogive corner feet this morning, didn't rework a one. But
that's not the point. I don't care if he aligns it every week until
the end of time. That's his business. And those that don't and don't
consider it necessary have a perfect right to their opinion and to
express that opinion when a thread starts on the subject. If he,or you
don't believe that then just killfile the lot of us.

Frank



Either way, the woodworking is going to be the same. Both methods
will end up producing high quality joints. But, one is clearly more
time intensive than the other. There is some merit to futzing around
with the "OCD measurements".

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message

Really. And all of this has what to do with the topic of this thread?

LOL ... I guess we'll just have to ask Galileo, or his modern incarnation.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

Made twelve ogive corner feet this morning, didn't rework a one.

Wish like hell I could say that!

I've been working on 20, hard maple, kitchen drawers for a new kitchen job
for what seems like weeks (actually just days, but too many of them at this
point) ... basically sick and tired of being sick and tired, of filling and
sanding.

That's why I keep coming in from the shop and wasting time ... to get some
comic relief between grits.

One of the jig fingers apparently, and mysteriously with no signs of doing
so to this day, moved/slipped at some point in the middle of a "production
run" of 40 tail boards and I've been "magicing" the results on about half
the drawers ever since.

The second time the D4 has done that on a run of drawers ... too bad there's
no effective way to "align" that tool to the elusive "gnat's ass" and have
it stay that way.

Nonetheless, a perfect example of the contention of how "misalignment" can
cause hours of extra work ... a concept I've certainly never argued with,
having experienced it too painfully myself.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sep 24, 1:21 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Ed Bennett" wrote in message
This thread is about helping one person to make the most of a recent
machinery investment.

That's real sweet, Ed ... but the way you keep it going it's starting to
sound a whole lot more like pious, holier than thou, spam.


well, swing, without a doubt Ed does enjoy a long winded post, and
he's not shy about putting his product up front and center.

he even can be a bit self righteous. but he 'aint generally an out and
out asshole, which is more than I can say for you.

wrote in message

he even can be a bit self righteous. but he 'aint generally an out and
out asshole, which is more than I can say for you.

Real classy there, bridger ... another heard from who can pretend to be
insulted while doing the insulting. You guys be sure to keep the pretense up
by e-mailing each other, you hear?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:40:09 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:


Nonetheless, a perfect example of the contention of how "misalignment" can
cause hours of extra work ... a concept I've certainly never argued with,
having experienced it too painfully myself.


Me too, but with those sliding tapered dovetails on that omnijig.
Theoretically if you start both your male and female cuts at exactly
the same place on the taper jig, they should slide together and snug
up just fine. But with that grandbaby on the way and a great need to
finish a cradle in time to let the solvent fumes fully evaporate, I
struggled for several days trying to get the fit right. Finally got
it but not sure how, so reluctant to go there again.

Seems like a real good way to do that cross grain assembly without
offending the cross grain glue up gods, wish I could get the hang of
it.

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

Seems like a real good way to do that cross grain assembly without
offending the cross grain glue up gods, wish I could get the hang of it.

Exercising the theory behind reproducing identical/matching parts, in a
practical and efficient manner, in a medium that moves, _is_ the definition
of fru$tration.

... but when you do get lucky, it feels so good.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/8/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sep 27, 3:53 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
I did. Before I posted. It was initially and remains my "opinion"
that it was not a flame fest.

You are free to believe whatever you like. I'd bet that Dan felt a
bit singed around the edges; at which point you questioned his ability
to make friends. Does that help put things in perspective?

I care not if he or you or anyone in this group shares my opinion.
That's what opinions are all about.

Which is why you keep repeating it over and over, right?

????? Derogatory term? What planet are you from?

Perhaps it's been a while since you've engaged in polite conversation.

Might, if that was what had happened. Who exactly called him an idot
or expressed that his position on the matter was because of ignorance?
And I don't thin an alignment tool was mentioned until long after his
problem was essentially solved to his satisfaction.

Apparently you didn't read the thread. Or maybe your news server
doesn't contain all the messages. For some reason I had trouble using
Google to read certain messages (the particular ones where swingman
started "ranting and raving"). I just found a different news server.

Responding as if threatened? LOL.

Yes, indeed. Did anybody ever say that your saw needed alignment?
Did anybody say it was incapable of doing precise work? Did anybody
criticize your work as sloppy? Did anybody even tell you that you
should align your saw? I don't recall anybody saying anything of the
sort. And yet, every message contains an anecdote defending the
quality of your woodworking and your practice of ignoring table saw
alignment completely (as if it was normal and that everyone should do
likewise). Why is that Frank?

All the above eloquent Ed, however, some may feel it is a waste of
time, and I believe you may be the only one here who has a vested
financial interest in having everyone believe that it is not a waste
of time.

Based on what Maxwell said, and numerous email messages received, I'd
have to say that this opinion has little if any merit.

That statement pretty much sums up who is intolerant of the opinions
of others.

Hmmm.... Perhaps you misunderstood me. What I was saying is that I'm
not alone in my opinion that proper alignment is important. You are
right; "some" feel that it's a waste of time. Obviously, this is your
position. But, since you don't actually know the current state of
your machine (aligned or misaligned) I don't understand how you can be
so confident in your assertion.

Think about
the logic of Dan's situation. This particular alignment is pretty
much a one time event. If it takes him a week to get it right (and it
only took one evening), then he can count on having accurate bevel
cuts forever on that saw. If he ignores it and "just makes
sawdust" (as you and swingman have so exasperatingly recommended),
then he will need to rework every single bevel cut he makes on that
saw in order to obtain tight joints. Now, in your honest opinion,
which is the bigger waste of time?

Sorry Frank, I missed your answer to the question. For Dan, which
option is the bigger waste of time? The logic is very simple and easy
to follow. Why do you avoid answering the question?

Made twelve ogive corner feet this morning, didn't rework a one. But
that's not the point. I don't care if he aligns it every week until
the end of time. That's his business. And those that don't and don't
consider it necessary have a perfect right to their opinion and to
express that opinion when a thread starts on the subject. If he,or you
don't believe that then just killfile the lot of us.

Perhaps I should explain why this anecdotal evidence is meaningless.
First of all, it doesn't speak to Dan's situation and the thread is
about Dan's desire to align his saw - not your ability to perform some
specific task without any regard for the alignment of your saw.
Second, I have absolutely no idea what level of quality you consider
adequate and what level would prompt you to re-work a joint. Third,
maybe you are post processing these "ogive feet" in such a way that
would be considered re-work by some but not by you (i.e. flattening
the tops or bottoms to correct for angular error on the miter).
Fourth, nobody can examine the evidence to know whether or not the
anecdote actually applies to the situation (i.e. maybe your "ogive
feet" can be cut all day on a misaligned saw without any
consequence). Fifth, by plain old dumb luck your saw might just be in
good alignment and you would never know how bad it could be if it
weren't. Sixth, the anecdote could be a complete fabrication of your
imagination specifically designed to address your point. Shall I
continue?

Here's the truth of what you say above. Dan has a right to maintain
his machinery any way he wants to and doesn't need to justify his
decisions to anybody else. You have a right to do the same. Both of
you are free to make recommendations to the other. Either of you can
turn down the other's recommendation for any reason. Neither of you
should feel compelled to defend your woodworking skills and abilities
as a result of having a recommendation rejected. In other words, you
don't need to keep posting anecdotes describing how you can do good
woodworking even though you choose to ignore the alignment of your
saw. OK? Can we all agree that Dan's desire to align his saw doesn't
automatically cast aspersions on your woodworking?

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Sep 27, 3:03 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:11:39 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote:

The situation reminds me of how Galileo
was treated when his innovative ideas threatened the pious ignorance
of the time.

LOL. Ed, please tell me this is a troll. Or do you actually feel
that anyone who does not share your opinion on this matter is
ignorant?

Sorry Frank, you misunderstood. It's a statement about how Galileo
was treated for having innovative ideas. It's not about Galileo's (or
anybody elses) opinion of those who mistreated him.

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

Be very careful, Frank ... particularly if you value the sanctity of your
personal e-mail inbox. Ignoring the troll, as Leon wisely advised, is the
best bet.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/08/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sep 27, 1:56 pm, "Mike Marlow" wrote:

Oh no - you're not going to get up on some gilded throne, and try to
proclaim that the world is really round now... are you?


OK, I've spent all day looking for one of these gilded thrones.
Nobody in Boise has any in stock (no surprise there!). They all say
that they can order one (gee, I could have done that for myself, so
what purpose do the local shops serve?). So, until the throne arrives
we will just have to live with a flat world located at the center of
the solar system. I'll keep you posted on any progress. In the
meantime, we need to get hold of someone in Rome and let them know
about the delay. We certainly don't want any councils declaring
anything rash before the actual proclamation occurs. After all, if
they arrest me before the throne arrives then I'll be charged with
crimes that haven't yet occurred. What a mess! Next time we'll need
to think of a better platform for these announcements; something that
can be obtained locally. ;-)

Thanks Mike,

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:32:37 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote:

On Sep 27, 3:53 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
I did. Before I posted. It was initially and remains my "opinion"
that it was not a flame fest.

You are free to believe whatever you like.

Thank you so very much.

I'd bet that Dan felt a
bit singed around the edges; at which point you questioned his ability
to make friends. Does that help put things in perspective?

Recognizing the futility of continuing, I'll ignore all below, let
those who are following this thread decide for themself. Hopefully you
will also grant each of them the right to believe whatever they like.
But in this case you have specifically accused me of "questioning
Dan's ability to make friends". I did nothing of the kind. I don't
know where you got that but I think since it is a specific accusation
that you should either apologise or offer corroborating evidence.
Please cut and paste the information from any post where I said
anything directly related to that accusation or any other personal
derogatory remarks regarding the OP.

Frank

I care not if he or you or anyone in this group shares my opinion.
That's what opinions are all about.

Which is why you keep repeating it over and over, right?

????? Derogatory term? What planet are you from?

Perhaps it's been a while since you've engaged in polite conversation.

Might, if that was what had happened. Who exactly called him an idot
or expressed that his position on the matter was because of ignorance?
And I don't thin an alignment tool was mentioned until long after his
problem was essentially solved to his satisfaction.

Apparently you didn't read the thread. Or maybe your news server
doesn't contain all the messages. For some reason I had trouble using
Google to read certain messages (the particular ones where swingman
started "ranting and raving"). I just found a different news server.

Responding as if threatened? LOL.

Yes, indeed. Did anybody ever say that your saw needed alignment?
Did anybody say it was incapable of doing precise work? Did anybody
criticize your work as sloppy? Did anybody even tell you that you
should align your saw? I don't recall anybody saying anything of the
sort. And yet, every message contains an anecdote defending the
quality of your woodworking and your practice of ignoring table saw
alignment completely (as if it was normal and that everyone should do
likewise). Why is that Frank?

All the above eloquent Ed, however, some may feel it is a waste of
time, and I believe you may be the only one here who has a vested
financial interest in having everyone believe that it is not a waste
of time.

Based on what Maxwell said, and numerous email messages received, I'd
have to say that this opinion has little if any merit.

That statement pretty much sums up who is intolerant of the opinions
of others.

Hmmm.... Perhaps you misunderstood me. What I was saying is that I'm
not alone in my opinion that proper alignment is important. You are
right; "some" feel that it's a waste of time. Obviously, this is your
position. But, since you don't actually know the current state of
your machine (aligned or misaligned) I don't understand how you can be
so confident in your assertion.

Think about
the logic of Dan's situation. This particular alignment is pretty
much a one time event. If it takes him a week to get it right (and it
only took one evening), then he can count on having accurate bevel
cuts forever on that saw. If he ignores it and "just makes
sawdust" (as you and swingman have so exasperatingly recommended),
then he will need to rework every single bevel cut he makes on that
saw in order to obtain tight joints. Now, in your honest opinion,
which is the bigger waste of time?

Sorry Frank, I missed your answer to the question. For Dan, which
option is the bigger waste of time? The logic is very simple and easy
to follow. Why do you avoid answering the question?

Made twelve ogive corner feet this morning, didn't rework a one. But
that's not the point. I don't care if he aligns it every week until
the end of time. That's his business. And those that don't and don't
consider it necessary have a perfect right to their opinion and to
express that opinion when a thread starts on the subject. If he,or you
don't believe that then just killfile the lot of us.

Perhaps I should explain why this anecdotal evidence is meaningless.
First of all, it doesn't speak to Dan's situation and the thread is
about Dan's desire to align his saw - not your ability to perform some
specific task without any regard for the alignment of your saw.
Second, I have absolutely no idea what level of quality you consider
adequate and what level would prompt you to re-work a joint. Third,
maybe you are post processing these "ogive feet" in such a way that
would be considered re-work by some but not by you (i.e. flattening
the tops or bottoms to correct for angular error on the miter).
Fourth, nobody can examine the evidence to know whether or not the
anecdote actually applies to the situation (i.e. maybe your "ogive
feet" can be cut all day on a misaligned saw without any
consequence). Fifth, by plain old dumb luck your saw might just be in
good alignment and you would never know how bad it could be if it
weren't. Sixth, the anecdote could be a complete fabrication of your
imagination specifically designed to address your point. Shall I
continue?

Here's the truth of what you say above. Dan has a right to maintain
his machinery any way he wants to and doesn't need to justify his
decisions to anybody else. You have a right to do the same. Both of
you are free to make recommendations to the other. Either of you can
turn down the other's recommendation for any reason. Neither of you
should feel compelled to defend your woodworking skills and abilities
as a result of having a recommendation rejected. In other words, you
don't need to keep posting anecdotes describing how you can do good
woodworking even though you choose to ignore the alignment of your
saw. OK? Can we all agree that Dan's desire to align his saw doesn't
automatically cast aspersions on your woodworking?

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:50:55 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote:

On Sep 27, 3:03 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:11:39 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote:

The situation reminds me of how Galileo
was treated when his innovative ideas threatened the pious ignorance
of the time.

LOL. Ed, please tell me this is a troll. Or do you actually feel
that anyone who does not share your opinion on this matter is
ignorant?

Sorry Frank, you misunderstood. It's a statement about how Galileo
was treated for having innovative ideas. It's not about Galileo's (or
anybody elses) opinion of those who mistreated him.

So what did you mean Ed? You used the statement in an analogous
manner. Are you like Galileo with the innovative ideas and those who
don't accept those ideas are" piously ignorant"?

Frank




Ed Bennett





http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Sep 29, 6:50 am, Frank Boettcher wrote:
Recognizing the futility of continuing, I'll ignore all below, let
those who are following this thread decide for themself. Hopefully you
will also grant each of them the right to believe whatever they like.

Sounds good to me.

But in this case you have specifically accused me of "questioning
Dan's ability to make friends". I did nothing of the kind. I don't
know where you got that but I think since it is a specific accusation
that you should either apologise or offer corroborating evidence.
Please cut and paste the information from any post where I said
anything directly related to that accusation or any other personal
derogatory remarks regarding the OP.

Sorry Frank, it looks like I made a mistake and owe you an apology.
Here's the message that I was thinking of:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...92fa1ee2e6859b

I had you confused with another Frank and it was an injustice to
attribute that statement to you. I hope you can forgive me. And, I
hope that anybody else who might have been misled by my mistake will
see this and not allow my blunder to change their opinion of you.

There have also been a number of occasions where I interpreted your
statements as more antagonistic than they may have been intended
because you and swingman were arguing the same point of view ("ignore
the problem and just make sawdust"). In the absence of swingman's
derogatory remarks I may not have taken them the same way. So, I
apologize for this as well.

I'm still wondering if you think Dan was wasting his time to align his
saw. Is it better for him to live with the problem (rework all his
bevel cuts) or invest the time up front to eliminate the problem once
and for all?

Thanks,
Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner.com

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:35:31 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote:

On Sep 29, 6:50 am, Frank Boettcher wrote:
Recognizing the futility of continuing, I'll ignore all below, let
those who are following this thread decide for themself. Hopefully you
will also grant each of them the right to believe whatever they like.

Sounds good to me.

But in this case you have specifically accused me of "questioning
Dan's ability to make friends". I did nothing of the kind. I don't
know where you got that but I think since it is a specific accusation
that you should either apologise or offer corroborating evidence.
Please cut and paste the information from any post where I said
anything directly related to that accusation or any other personal
derogatory remarks regarding the OP.

Sorry Frank, it looks like I made a mistake and owe you an apology.
Here's the message that I was thinking of:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...92fa1ee2e6859b

I had you confused with another Frank and it was an injustice to
attribute that statement to you. I hope you can forgive me. And, I
hope that anybody else who might have been misled by my mistake will
see this and not allow my blunder to change their opinion of you.

Certainly, apology accepted.

There have also been a number of occasions where I interpreted your
statements as more antagonistic than they may have been intended
because you and swingman were arguing the same point of view ("ignore
the problem and just make sawdust"). In the absence of swingman's
derogatory remarks I may not have taken them the same way. So, I
apologize for this as well.

I didn't find those comments offensive, but opinions must vary,
depending on one's point of view.

I'm still wondering if you think Dan was wasting his time to align his
saw. Is it better for him to live with the problem (rework all his
bevel cuts) or invest the time up front to eliminate the problem once
and for all?

It's not a waste of time for him if he wants alignment more precise
than what he had. My position is that the rework that he anticpates
is not what I would have expected with those original readings. He
said he experienced a bad fit while using the saw prior to realigning
it. I never questioned that nor commented on it, but was surprised by
it. I'm glad you were able to help him. Sounds like he had a simple
case of a cabinet top plate plane or a table boss plane that was not
perfectly (and there is no such thing except randomly) parallel to the
table top. But I would bet that it was within both Powermatics
specifications and the natural statistical process capability range
for the process. And, as originally stated, I expect that the feature
reading (45) was also.

Frank

Thanks,
Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner.com

On Sep 29, 6:59 am, Frank Boettcher wrote:
So what did you mean Ed? You used the statement in an analogous
manner. Are you like Galileo with the innovative ideas and those who
don't accept those ideas are" piously ignorant"?

The analogy is really aimed and encouraging people to examine the
facts and use their intelligence to judge the merits of proper
alignment. It was also intended to discourage people from ignoring
the facts, dispensing with their intellect and arguing "just make
sawdust". I thought it was a particularly keen analogy to answer
swingman's accusation that I was being pious and holier than thou.
That was it's primary purpose.

However, I don't mind attributing the role of Galileo with those who
believe that they can improve the performance of their machinery (and
subsequently the quality of their woodworking) with proper alignment.
I wouldn't want to have the role of the Roman authorities attributed
to me. I wouldn't want to be in the position of ridiculing and
persecuting the modern Galileos. So, I think each person needs to
examine their own attitude and determine if they like the role that
they have chosen to play.

That said...With regard to your own saw of 13 years, you said: "I
never checked the saw for alignment that [first] day or ever." You
also indicate that you believe that precise alignment is a waste of
time. In your recommendation to Dan, you said "...if it were mine and
I were within .016" with a dead on 90, I'd lock it down and cut
wood." (although I can't seem to get you to now say if you think it
was a waste of time for Dan to get this resolved). You include
yourself in the group of those who think that alignment is
unimportant. But, since you don't actually know the current state of
your machine (aligned or misaligned) I don't understand how you can be
so confident in your assertion. Maybe your saw is (by sheer luck)
well aligned. Maybe it isn't and you just don't recognize the
problems.

I don't doubt that you want to know which part I think you play in the
analogy. I could tell you what I think based on the evidence I've
seen (reviewed above for your convenience). But, this really is a
question that you need to answer for yourself. You need to play the
part that you believe is right, argue it's merits, and hope that time
doesn't treat you as badly as it did the Roman authorities.
It's not for me to tell you which role to play. I recognize that the
Galileo role is a lonely one with many trials and tribulations ;-).
But, I choose it and argue it's merits becaue I believe that it is
right. By contrast, the Roman role is grounded in piety ("we're not
wood machinists") and enjoys relative ease in the consensus of many.

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Sep 28, 9:23 pm, Maxwell Lol wrote:
Ed Bennett writes:
????? Derogatory term? What planet are you from?

Perhaps it's been a while since you've engaged in polite conversation.

"gnat's ass" isn't a derogatory term. It's a unit of measurement!

Unfortunately I don't have any instruments calibrated in gnat's asses
(or even thousandths of a gnat's ass). I'll check the NIST web site to
see if they list the conversion factor between inches and gnat's
asses. I'm sure that they maintain a standard gnat's ass from which
all certified instruments can trace their calibration. ;-)

Seriously, swingman was making fun of (mocking) Dan's efforts to
eliminate 0.016" of alignment error. That's about 1/64" for those not
conversant in thousandths (and one hell of a big gnatt if this is
equivalent to one thousandth of it's ass!). It's about three times the
ammount that matters (0.005"). It certainly affects accuracy and
borders on dangerous (i.e. kickback). It's an easy thing to fix. I
just can't imagine why it has caused so much antagonism.

Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

On Sep 29, 3:53 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
It's not a waste of time for him if he wants alignment more precise
than what he had. My position is that the rework that he anticpates
is not what I would have expected with those original readings. He
said he experienced a bad fit while using the saw prior to realigning
it. I never questioned that nor commented on it, but was surprised by
it.

Two things can happen when you have bad blade alignment. The work can
pinch between the fence and the blade resulting in a burned edge. Or,
the work can wander away from the fence during the cut resulting in an
inaccurate cut. When using a miter gauge, the work has a tendency to
slide to one side or the other. It all depends on which direction the
misalignment takes. If you prevent the wandering with clamps (miter
gauge) or feather boards (fence) you end up with a burned edge (and a
wider kerf if you follow all the way through).

The same things happen when the blade is tilted. However, the
wandering or pinching isn't just horizontal, it will also have a
vertical component. Most people notice the horizontal wandering but
don't catch the vertical.

I'm glad you were able to help him. Sounds like he had a simple
case of a cabinet top plate plane or a table boss plane that was not
perfectly (and there is no such thing except randomly) parallel to the
table top. But I would bet that it was within both Powermatics
specifications and the natural statistical process capability range
for the process. And, as originally stated, I expect that the feature
reading (45) was also.

There are wide specs and large variability. I don't know what the PM
specs are but I suspect that you are right. I've had a lot of
customers complain about interactions with woodworking machinery
manufacturers. Most of these companies just don't think that their
customers will ever notice or care. And, since the market is so price
competitive, they're not to keen on making an investment in this
area. I've talked with Manufacturing Engineers at Delta (about 12
years ago). They have jigs like mine that they use internally for
audit checks (sold a Sr. and associated accessories to their facility
in Pittsburgh) but it's not 100% inspection. They just want to make
sure that their process is still in control.

Ed Bennett


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