I'm in the process of setting up a new shop in my home. It's about 16
by 25, and it's a room in the lower level of a walkout of a house set
on a slope. Adjacent to the shop are a family room, and stairs leading
upstairs to the main living level.

Obviously Dust and Noise (D&N (TM)) are an issue.

First of all the Dust:

I have a 2hp dust collector that will be set up at each workstation
(router table, tablesaw, chop saw, etc) with appropriate ducting. I
also have a ceiling hung filter. I have heard of a system that takes
the shop air and vents it outdoors via a filter, and then a heat
exchanger returns the air to the shop (so I'm not cooling/heating the
backyard). has anyone heard of such a device, and how much will it
cost?

Noise:

Shop is below master bedroom/great room area. I'm ripping up the
ceiling and walls of the shop for wiring purposes, and I'm going to
re-drywall. As long as the studs/joists are bare, what can I do for
noise?

Thanks in advance,


George

Dust - you've got it covered pretty well - that's kinda a joke.

Sound - do a google search for "sound isolation systems" (include quotes).
Just read the text at this site:

http://www.asc-soundproof.com/home-ent.htm

for an overall veiw of what needs to be done. Basically, it's: mass dampens
vibrations (sound waves), breaking connections hinders transmission of
vibrations.

-or- call a home theater installer and pick his brain.

Mitch

George Katele wrote in message
news:140720032222196526%gkatele.no.spam.for.me@int eraccess.com...

I'm in the process of setting up a new shop in my home. It's about 16
by 25, and it's a room in the lower level of a walkout of a house set
on a slope. Adjacent to the shop are a family room, and stairs leading
upstairs to the main living level.

Obviously Dust and Noise (D&N (TM)) are an issue.

First of all the Dust:

I have a 2hp dust collector that will be set up at each workstation
(router table, tablesaw, chop saw, etc) with appropriate ducting. I
also have a ceiling hung filter. I have heard of a system that takes
the shop air and vents it outdoors via a filter, and then a heat
exchanger returns the air to the shop (so I'm not cooling/heating the
backyard). has anyone heard of such a device, and how much will it
cost?

Noise:

Shop is below master bedroom/great room area. I'm ripping up the
ceiling and walls of the shop for wiring purposes, and I'm going to
re-drywall. As long as the studs/joists are bare, what can I do for
noise?

Thanks in advance,


George

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:22:19 -0500, George Katele
queried:
I'm in the process of setting up a new shop in my home. It's about 16
by 25, and it's a room in the lower level of a walkout of a house set
on a slope. Adjacent to the shop are a family room, and stairs leading
upstairs to the main living level.

Obviously Dust and Noise (D&N (TM)) are an issue.

Noise:
Shop is below master bedroom/great room area. I'm ripping up the
ceiling and walls of the shop for wiring purposes, and I'm going to
re-drywall. As long as the studs/joists are bare, what can I do for
noise?

What I did for my psychologist wife's basement office is the
following. The office is below the living room and next to the garage:

Ceiling:
Stuffed the cavity between the joists with fiberglass insulation (and
I mean stuffed, packed in tight)

Attached metal sound bar (aka resilient channel) to the joists

Screwed on 5/8 drywall (taped the joints)

Put in an acoustical tile suspended ceiling 5" below the drywall

It works well. The only sounds that get through are low frequency,
such as my heavy tread on the hardwood floor above.

Luigi
Replace "no" with "yk" twice
in reply address for real email address

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:46:58 -0700, Luigi Zanasi wrote:

Ceiling:
Stuffed the cavity between the joists with fiberglass insulation (and
I mean stuffed, packed in tight)

this is a mistake. air space is the best thing you can have to help stop sound.
dead air space is very effective.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:48:59 GMT, Steve Knight
scribbled

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:46:58 -0700, Luigi Zanasi wrote:

Ceiling:
Stuffed the cavity between the joists with fiberglass insulation (and
I mean stuffed, packed in tight)

this is a mistake. air space is the best thing you can have to help stop sound.
dead air space is very effective.

Hi Steve,

I hate to disagree with you, but you might want to refer to any number
of research studies, reports and manuals on this issue, for example
from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (Kanuckistan's
equivalent to HUD):

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publicati...h/2000-109.htm

Note the sentence (under "Findings"):

"Performance can be improved by increasing the thickness and density
of the insulation."

or:
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publicati...tech/96224.htm
or:
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publicati...tech/90246.htm

I did get my information from reputable sources (like CMHC manuals)
and from building inspectors I was working with when I built the
office.

BTW, I think I got the plane today. I got a parcel notice & I'll go
pick it up tomorrow. Thanks.

Luigi
Replace "no" with "yk" twice
in reply address for real email address

The purpose of the insulation is to provide lots of dead air spaces. The
smaller the spaces, the more likely to "eat" the sound waves rather than
allow them to pass through or transfer by medium vibration.

What insulates in heating/cooling applications is the air, not the fibers.

"Luigi Zanasi" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:48:59 GMT, Steve Knight
scribbled

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:46:58 -0700, Luigi Zanasi
wrote:

Ceiling:
Stuffed the cavity between the joists with fiberglass insulation (and
I mean stuffed, packed in tight)

this is a mistake. air space is the best thing you can have to help stop
sound.
dead air space is very effective.

Hi Steve,

I hate to disagree with you, but you might want to refer to any number
of research studies, reports and manuals on this issue, for example
from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (Kanuckistan's
equivalent to HUD):

George

First of all the Dust:

Have a look at the following site which has quite a lot of info in
connection with dust collection.

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworki...clonePlan.html

Regards George SA

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:23:15 -0500, Lawrence A. Ramsey
wrote:

Steve, I beg to differ. Look at your house. If you want to hear
EVERYTHING that goes on in the next room, leave the wall space empty.
If you want to deaden it, build a double stud wall staggered and weave
fiberglass insulation between. Used it in an college athletic dorm and
it works great! But merely empty space is NOT a sound barrier.

when I mean dead air space I don't just mean one space. remember all the
sheetrock and studs are tied together and transmit sound.
Yes I know about it because I studied acoustics when I was a recording
engineer. one of the primary sound deadening methods is to build two walls that
don't touch.


--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

O
If you want to deaden it, build a double stud wall staggered and weave
fiberglass insulation between. Used it in an college athletic dorm and
it works great! But merely empty space is NOT a sound barrier.

even better to build two walls that don't touch.
yes I do know about it I did a fair amount of study about it when i was a
recording engineer.
dead air is very effective but it has to be done right. it takes more then one
layer. but sound will not penetrate very may layers of material if they can't
interact with each other with anything other then air.
so yes one hollow all will not do anything but two will do great or layers of
insulation that does not touch each other will work great too. it's the
separation between them the dead air space between them that does the job.


--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:13:01 -0700, Luigi Zanasi wrote:

I hate to disagree with you, but you might want to refer to any number
of research studies, reports and manuals on this issue, for example
from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (Kanuckistan's
equivalent to HUD):

well I got the info when I was a recording engineer. where studios were built
with two walls. sound was a battle and far better tested then in houses.
You want dead air space several layers of it.
but in a regular wall or floor the wall itself will transmit sound.
there are things that absorb sound too. but the dead air space is the most
effective and cost effective method. If you want a few books on it just holler I
can see if I can still find them.
it was something I used to be really interested in and read quite a bit of it.
"Adding more insulation, or denser insulation improves acoustic performance,
however it is not significant without resilient channels."
A quote from the site.
dead air space is very good but not easy to achieve. If you could have several
separated layers of insulation in the floor over one stuffed piece it would work
better.





--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

In article ,
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A. wrote:
Steve Knight wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:23:15 -0500, Lawrence A. Ramsey
wrote:

Steve, I beg to differ. Look at your house. If you want to hear
EVERYTHING that goes on in the next room, leave the wall space empty.
If you want to deaden it, build a double stud wall staggered and weave
fiberglass insulation between. Used it in an college athletic dorm and
it works great! But merely empty space is NOT a sound barrier.

when I mean dead air space I don't just mean one space. remember all the
sheetrock and studs are tied together and transmit sound.
Yes I know about it because I studied acoustics when I was a recording
engineer. one of the primary sound deadening methods is to build two
walls that
don't touch.

Isn't fiberglass basically trapped air? If so, it's useful for
thermal insulation and a needless expense for sound insulation.

Well, yes AND *no*, applies.

There are two separate issues with regard to how sound (mechanical energy)
carries.
1) energy transmission _within_ a particular material
2) enerty transfer _between_ two dissimilar materials

Transmission _within_ any material is more efficient than "across the
boundary" to a dissimilar material.

_Within_ any material, losses increase with the _distance_ the energy
must travel. Introduce a long twisted path, with lots of dead-ends,
and the energy losses go _way_ up.

Those two facts are why products like styrofoam and foam-rubber are
such effective sound "insulation". *LOTS* of air-plastic interfaces
that attenuate the energy. And any path "just through the plastic"
is _far_ longer than the "straight line" distance through the foam.
Also, lots of 'false paths', where a fair part of the energy ends up
going 'sideways', or even 'backwards', rather than 'through' the
material.

Another effective technique for isolation involves using _lots_ of
small objects, rather than a single large one. Irregularly shaped
small objects work best. This -maximizes- the surface area for
contact with 'dissimilar' material (e.g. the surrounding air),
_and_ *minimizes* the contact area with 'like' material. Thus the
sound passes 'moderately efficiently' through that _small_ contact
area, spreads out in the next object, and only the small part of
the energy that reaches where -that- object contacts other objects
is passed on.

Sand is an amazingly effective isolator in this respect. Styrofoam
"peanuts", "popcorn", etc, are also highly effective. 'sheet' in-
sulation is good for this, too. Fiberglas bat is significantly
less effective, because the 'rigidity' is much lower (closer to that
of air). It's definitely better than an 'unfilled space', but
inferior to some of the 'higher density' filler materials.


Of course, *nothing* beats a hard vacuum. grin

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:15:25 GMT, "Leon" wrote:

Recording engineer? Ever meet or know Owen Bradley?



nope. I was a flop I had no clue about music. what the hell is a riff? I could
not talk to musicians.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

LOL.. Hence you now build magnificent hand planes....

A close friend married Owen Bradley's nephew. IIRC his nephew mixed KD
Lang's earlier recordings at Owen Bradley's studio in Nashville. If you
G___ a S___... :~)




"Steve Knight" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:15:25 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

Recording engineer? Ever meet or know Owen Bradley?



nope. I was a flop I had no clue about music. what the hell is a riff? I
could
not talk to musicians.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

In article ,
Steve Knight wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:15:25 GMT, "Leon" wrote:

Recording engineer? Ever meet or know Owen Bradley?



nope. I was a flop I had no clue about music. what the hell is a riff? I could
not talk to musicians.


*everybody* knows what a riff is -- it's the second half, the 'raff' that
those 'so-called' musicians have _real_ trouble identifiying. *snicker*