Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?

--
Andrew (change P to K in s.ydata to reply)

In article , Andrew andrew@
sPydata.uklinux.net writes
Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.
They seem like be a nice bunch, I spoke to them a bit before deciding that
I couldn't justify the extra cost of their (excellent) boiler. I chose the
Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.
I have it in the corner of my kitchen and do not consider it to be
excessively noisy, but this is a long way away from the main kitchen
action. It does have a powerful flue fan which is noticeable and could be
obtrusive in a quieter area. I will be boxing mine in the long term.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point. Roof line sounds
good, but be aware that you are not allowed dips in the route - soffit might
be ok. Inlet & exhaust need to be separated by 200mm. Check out the pdf
downloads at:
http://www.keston.co.uk/products/celsius25.htm
--
fred

Andrew wrote:

snip

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?

--
Andrew (change P to K in s.ydata to reply)

ROTFL!

You may have had a genteel upbringing and never participated in a 'light the
fart' experiment in your teens.

Waste gasses both directly from humans and indirectly from decaying waste
material such as in drains contain methane which is inflammable.

You migth get a blowback in the toilets etc

Bob

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , Andrew andrew@
sPydata.uklinux.net writes
Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.
They seem like be a nice bunch, I spoke to them a bit before deciding that
I couldn't justify the extra cost of their (excellent) boiler. I chose the
Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.
I have it in the corner of my kitchen and do not consider it to be
excessively noisy, but this is a long way away from the main kitchen
action. It does have a powerful flue fan which is noticeable and could be
obtrusive in a quieter area. I will be boxing mine in the long term.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.


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Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 18/11/2003

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?

In theory this sounds fine. But, the stack is open so air is drawn in to
prevent suction as large volumes of water go down the waste (like a bath
emptying along with the washing machine and dishwasher). Dragging toxic
fumes into a sewer is rather naughty.


---
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In article , Bob Minchin
writes
Andrew wrote:

snip

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?

--
Andrew (change P to K in s.ydata to reply)

ROTFL!

You may have had a genteel upbringing and never participated in a 'light the
fart' experiment in your teens.

Waste gasses both directly from humans and indirectly from decaying waste
material such as in drains contain methane which is inflammable.

You migth get a blowback in the toilets etc

Bob



Maybe I should rephrase that - why can't I convert the top section of
the waste stack so that the 2" mupvc flue enters at 1st floor ceiling
height and exits up through the roof *inside* the waste stack.That way
the flue terminal pokes out above the stack by say 6 inches and the
remaining cross section is still used to vent the stack. Since we are
only discharging acidic steam at this point where does the possibility
of exploding methane come into it ?
--
Andrew (change .P. to .k. to reply)

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
Maybe I should rephrase that - why can't I convert the top section of
the waste stack so that the 2" mupvc flue enters at 1st floor ceiling
height and exits up through the roof *inside* the waste stack.That way
the flue terminal pokes out above the stack by say 6 inches and the
remaining cross section is still used to vent the stack. Since we are
only discharging acidic steam at this point where does the possibility
of exploding methane come into it ?

Andrew,

There a number of options here. Firstly the waste pipe used for the exhaust
of a Keston has to be mPVC, which is more heat resistant. You can put an
air admittance valve on the top of the existing 110mm plastic stack in the
loft. Then use the same hole in the roof to run the Keston exhaust. The
existing hole maybe too big for the 2 to 2.5" exhaust pipe of the Keston.
Then it may be wise to use mPVC 110mm pipe for the section that runs through
the roof tiles. A bird guard must be fitted on the top of the 110mm pipe.
Then you have no need to go outside on the roof. The air intake can be
terminated at the eves.

Or remove the stack completly and use hepVO drain traps on all the upstairs
appliances.
see:
http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk/ and click on HepVO.

Good thinking Andrew. I never ROFLed




---
--

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Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 18/11/2003

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:48:59 +0000, Andrew
wrote:




Maybe I should rephrase that - why can't I convert the top section of
the waste stack so that the 2" mupvc flue enters at 1st floor ceiling
height and exits up through the roof *inside* the waste stack.That way
the flue terminal pokes out above the stack by say 6 inches and the
remaining cross section is still used to vent the stack. Since we are
only discharging acidic steam at this point where does the possibility
of exploding methane come into it ?


It's pretty much academic.

If you download the Keston installation manual, you will find that it
refers to specific British standards on where flues may run and be
located, and adds some manufacturer specific options, which the
regulations allow.

If you want to do something different, then it would be advisable to
contact the manufacturer's technical department.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , IMM abuse-
writes

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , Andrew andrew@
sPydata.uklinux.net writes
Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.
They seem like be a nice bunch, I spoke to them a bit before deciding that
I couldn't justify the extra cost of their (excellent) boiler. I chose the
Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.
I have it in the corner of my kitchen and do not consider it to be
excessively noisy, but this is a long way away from the main kitchen
action. It does have a powerful flue fan which is noticeable and could be
obtrusive in a quieter area. I will be boxing mine in the long term.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.

If the air intake is taken to an external wall and the exhaust to the roof
ridge then there is a danger of wind pressure imbalancing the flue. I agree
that if the intake air was taken from a wind neutral space, say underfloor,
then that argument would be voided, but Keston specifically state that
taking air from underfloor (or not from outside) will void the warranty. I
assume that they are concerned about intake of dust etc into the
combustion space and resulting damage.

Through necessity, my own intake & flueing arrangements are somewhat
unusual, but I am not prepared to pass it on as a model for general
consumption.

By contrast, the Eco Hometec guys are quite happy with you taking the
inlet from neutral airspace and suggested to me that I could take intake
from an unused but vented chimney which could then house a flexible liner
for the exhaust. The difference in system cost however was IIRC
600-800quid.
--
fred

Andrew wrote:

In article , Bob Minchin
writes
Andrew wrote:

snip

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?

--
Andrew (change P to K in s.ydata to reply)

ROTFL!

You may have had a genteel upbringing and never participated in a 'light the
fart' experiment in your teens.

Waste gasses both directly from humans and indirectly from decaying waste
material such as in drains contain methane which is inflammable.

You migth get a blowback in the toilets etc

Bob



Maybe I should rephrase that - why can't I convert the top section of
the waste stack so that the 2" mupvc flue enters at 1st floor ceiling
height and exits up through the roof *inside* the waste stack.That way
the flue terminal pokes out above the stack by say 6 inches and the
remaining cross section is still used to vent the stack. Since we are
only discharging acidic steam at this point where does the possibility
of exploding methane come into it ?
--
Andrew (change .P. to .k. to reply)

Ok that gives me a better picture. Is there anything to stop drain sourced
methane falling down the boiler flue (when it is not lit) and getting into the
combustion chamber? I'm not familiar with keston boilers.. As someone else has
suggested, the manufacturer might be able to help. Doesn't heating come under
bldg regs now? How about asking the council technical services people who are
usually most helpful?

Bob

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , IMM abuse-
writes

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , Andrew andrew@
sPydata.uklinux.net writes
Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours
then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the
Keston.
They seem like be a nice bunch, I spoke to them a bit before deciding
that
I couldn't justify the extra cost of their (excellent) boiler. I chose
the
Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.
I have it in the corner of my kitchen and do not consider it to be
excessively noisy, but this is a long way away from the main kitchen
action. It does have a powerful flue fan which is noticeable and could
be
obtrusive in a quieter area. I will be boxing mine in the long term.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the
flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards
rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then
either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the
'high
tide mark' ?
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air
feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge
tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low
level.

If the air intake is taken to an external wall and the exhaust to the roof
ridge then there is a danger of wind pressure imbalancing the flue.

So little it is not worth considering. "most" twin pipes systems can have
exhaust and air intake in different locations, that one of the clear
advantages of twin pipes.

I agree
that if the intake air was taken from a wind neutral space, say
underfloor,
then that argument would be voided, but Keston specifically state that
taking air from underfloor (or not from outside) will void the warranty. I
assume that they are concerned about intake of dust etc into the
combustion space and resulting damage.

I didn't say take the air from the airspace under the floor. This would
drag very cold air under the floor cooling the house, the same with taking
it from a vented loft space too (this is silly as insulation dust could be
dragged in.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 18/11/2003

In article ,
"IMM" writes:

"fred" wrote in message ...
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.
Inlet & exhaust need to be separated by 200mm.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.

The instructions for my Celcius 25 say a 'minimum' of 200mm, and
explicitly state no maximum distance. I also recall something about
not being permitted on opposite sides of a building but I can't find
that now -- it might have been in the instructions of a different
boiler I was considering at the time.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew wrote in message ...

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.

I've just moved into a house with a Keston K130 installed on the
outside wall of a large airing cupboard (constructed of plasterboard)
on the middle floor of 3. I wouldnt want to try to sleep in the room
next to it and it's easily audible from the room above. It is a LOT
noisier than the gloworm combi i had in my last place. We're going
think about adding some sound insulation to the airing cupboard. Our
manual recommends against attaching to partition walls.

I've no comparison to other condensing boilers so this may be typical
and mine is a different model to the Celsius so YMMV.

In article , anthony
james writes
Andrew wrote in message
...

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.

I've just moved into a house with a Keston K130 installed on the
outside wall of a large airing cupboard (constructed of plasterboard)
on the middle floor of 3. I wouldnt want to try to sleep in the room
next to it and it's easily audible from the room above. It is a LOT
noisier than the gloworm combi i had in my last place. We're going
think about adding some sound insulation to the airing cupboard. Our
manual recommends against attaching to partition walls.

I've no comparison to other condensing boilers so this may be typical
and mine is a different model to the Celsius so YMMV.

I've recently got a Celsius 25 in the kitchen and I think it's extremely
quiet; I was worried by that statement in the instructions as well.

You can tell it's running when on "full burn", on lower speeds you have
to look at the indicators to tell if it's on or not. Even on full
throttle it makes about the same noise as the fridge. I wouldn't worry
about it.
--
Tim Mitchell

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:47:17 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"IMM" writes:

"fred" wrote in message ...
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.
Inlet & exhaust need to be separated by 200mm.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.

The instructions for my Celcius 25 say a 'minimum' of 200mm, and
explicitly state no maximum distance. I also recall something about
not being permitted on opposite sides of a building but I can't find
that now -- it might have been in the instructions of a different
boiler I was considering at the time.

It is in there somewhere - I suspect that because terminals on
opposite side of the building are explicitly forbidden in the regs.
I also suspect that having an instruction which is directly opposite to the
regs would cause much confusion and would have casued a great deal of
problems getting [Gas Council] type approval.

The OP should note that for a long rise (over 4m) on the flue a seperate
drain and trap should be provided for condensate at the bottom of the
ascent.

My own C25 takes air from a passage way under the house and terminates
vertically through the (flat) roof.

I've yet to see the plume as the boiler is only on when someone's having a
bath (reheating the cylinder) or for odd quater-hours here and there.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 05:42:51 +0000, anthony james wrote:

Andrew wrote in message ...

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.

I've just moved into a house with a Keston K130 installed on the
outside wall of a large airing cupboard (constructed of plasterboard)
on the middle floor of 3. I wouldnt want to try to sleep in the room
next to it and it's easily audible from the room above. It is a LOT
noisier than the gloworm combi i had in my last place. We're going
think about adding some sound insulation to the airing cupboard. Our
manual recommends against attaching to partition walls.

I've no comparison to other condensing boilers so this may be typical
and mine is a different model to the Celsius so YMMV.

The C130 is much a bigger and noisier boiler and a susperceded model.
My own Celsius 25 is in a cupboard on the landing and I can't tell whether
it is going or not - even for the first minute when it goes flat out.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:47:17 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"IMM" writes:

"fred" wrote in message ...
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.
Inlet & exhaust need to be separated by 200mm.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.

The instructions for my Celcius 25 say a 'minimum' of 200mm, and
explicitly state no maximum distance. I also recall something about
not being permitted on opposite sides of a building but I can't find
that now -- it might have been in the instructions of a different
boiler I was considering at the time.

It is in there somewhere - I suspect that because terminals on
opposite side of the building are explicitly forbidden in the regs.
I also suspect that having an instruction which is directly opposite to the
regs would cause much confusion and would have casued a great deal of
problems getting [Gas Council] type approval.

The OP should note that for a long rise (over 4m) on the flue a seperate
drain and trap should be provided for condensate at the bottom of the
ascent.

My own C25 takes air from a passage way under the house and terminates
vertically through the (flat) roof.

I've yet to see the plume as the boiler is only on when someone's having a
bath (reheating the cylinder) or for odd quater-hours here and there.

So what do you use for space heating ? - just curious. £800 for a Keston
is an expensive way of heating water.
--
Andrew
Change P to k to reply

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:06:05 +0000, Andrew
wrote:

In article .uk, Ed
Sirett writes

snip

I've yet to see the plume as the boiler is only on when someone's having a
bath (reheating the cylinder) or for odd quater-hours here and there.

So what do you use for space heating ? - just curious. £800 for a Keston
is an expensive way of heating water.

This is fairly typical behaviour with a modulating boiler.

For example, this Keston model drops its power level down to 7kW - I
have a different make which will drop as low as 3-4kW.

During a large part of the year, spring and autumn, and during the day
through he winter, the amount of heat required is much less than the
full output of the boiler. With a conventional boiler, the burner
is turned on and off to reduce the average heat output. In the case
of most types of condensing boiler, the burner power is reduced which
reduces output and water temperature.

It is more efficient to reduce power than to start and stop the
burner. Moreover, reducing the temperature increases the boiler
efficiency as it is pushed further into condensing operation.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:06:05 +0000, Andrew
wrote:

In article .uk, Ed
Sirett writes

snip

I've yet to see the plume as the boiler is only on when someone's having
a
bath (reheating the cylinder) or for odd quater-hours here and there.

So what do you use for space heating ? - just curious. £800 for a Keston
is an expensive way of heating water.

This is fairly typical behaviour with a modulating boiler.

For example, this Keston model drops its power level down to 7kW - I
have a different make which will drop as low as 3-4kW.

During a large part of the year, spring and autumn, and during the day
through he winter, the amount of heat required is much less than the
full output of the boiler. With a conventional boiler, the burner
is turned on and off to reduce the average heat output. In the case
of most types of condensing boiler, the burner power is reduced which
reduces output and water temperature.

It is more efficient to reduce power than to start and stop the
burner.

Depends on the burner design. A highly efficient spot rated burner
(non-modulating) coupled to a heat bank can be very efficient overall.

Many top end developers are fitting Myson Kickspace heaters in kitchens.
These require a high temperature flow for efficient draught free operation.
The solution used to be an integrated thermal store as it provides 75-80C
temps and a spot rated burner boiler always set to max temp. The efficiency
was good as the burner was highly efficient with design maximised for a set
rate.

Condensing boilers have advanced recently so now some approach it.. A DHW
only heat bank with one high temp circuit taken off the heat bank for the
Myson(s) and the CH circuit left to modulate on a condensing boiler. When
the heat bank requires heat the boiler runs up to full temp. When back on
CH it is left to modulate.

Moreover, reducing the temperature increases the boiler
efficiency as it is pushed further into condensing operation.



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Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 18/11/2003

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:56:13 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Depends on the burner design. A highly efficient spot rated burner
(non-modulating) coupled to a heat bank can be very efficient overall.

Ok, but that's a different game. The background was a more
conventional system.


Many top end developers are fitting Myson Kickspace heaters in kitchens.

Presumably this is to save wall space that would otherwise be needed
for a radiator.........

We had one of these (actually a wall mount version) in a previous
house to heat a stairwell and landing. It was effective but pretty
noisy. I wouldn't have wanted it in the kitchen...

These require a high temperature flow for efficient draught free operation.

Wouldn't the main point be to get enough heat output?

The solution used to be an integrated thermal store as it provides 75-80C
temps and a spot rated burner boiler always set to max temp. The efficiency
was good as the burner was highly efficient with design maximised for a set
rate.

Condensing boilers have advanced recently so now some approach it.. A DHW
only heat bank with one high temp circuit taken off the heat bank for the
Myson(s) and the CH circuit left to modulate on a condensing boiler. When
the heat bank requires heat the boiler runs up to full temp. When back on
CH it is left to modulate.

I see what you're saying but it sounds like a lot of extra complexity
- presumably an extra pump for the Myson circuit??




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:56:13 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Depends on the burner design. A highly efficient spot rated burner
(non-modulating) coupled to a heat bank can be very efficient overall.

Ok, but that's a different game. The background was a more
conventional system.

Many top end developers are fitting Myson Kickspace heaters in kitchens.

Presumably this is to save wall space that would otherwise be needed
for a radiator.........

Some have little walls space as they fill the walls with cupboards, and they
fit them in the utility rooms too.

We had one of these (actually a wall mount version) in a previous
house to heat a stairwell and landing. It was effective but pretty
noisy. I wouldn't have wanted it in the kitchen...

They are acceptable in kitchens as under the cupboards much of the sound is
muffled. Also they blow hot air over your feet, which is appealing to many
people.

These require a high temperature flow for efficient draught free
operation.

Wouldn't the main point be to get enough heat output?

You size to suit, but a temp flow is essential.

The solution used to be an integrated thermal store as it provides
75-80C
temps and a spot rated burner boiler always set to max temp. The
efficiency
was good as the burner was highly efficient with design maximised for a
set
rate.

Condensing boilers have advanced recently so now some approach it.. A
DHW
only heat bank with one high temp circuit taken off the heat bank for the
Myson(s) and the CH circuit left to modulate on a condensing boiler.
When
the heat bank requires heat the boiler runs up to full temp. When back
on
CH it is left to modulate.

I see what you're saying but it sounds like a lot of extra complexity
- presumably an extra pump for the Myson circuit??

Not extra complexity at all. Just a pump and flow and return for the
kickspaces from the heat bank/thermal store. I wouldn't call that complex
at all. They sometimes put in room stats that when satisfied cut the pump
and Kickspaces.



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On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:55:54 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




Not extra complexity at all. Just a pump and flow and return for the
kickspaces from the heat bank/thermal store. I wouldn't call that complex
at all. They sometimes put in room stats that when satisfied cut the pump
and Kickspaces.

But still needs an extra pump, surely??



---

..andy

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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:55:54 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Not extra complexity at all. Just a pump and flow and return for the
kickspaces from the heat bank/thermal store. I wouldn't call that
complex
at all. They sometimes put in room stats that when satisfied cut the
pump
and Kickspaces.

But still needs an extra pump, surely??

That is not extra complexity at all. Pumps are about the same price as zone
valves. You could use the one pump and a three way valve and arrange the
piping accordingly, but that "is" more complexity.


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On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:34:10 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:55:54 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Not extra complexity at all. Just a pump and flow and return for the
kickspaces from the heat bank/thermal store. I wouldn't call that
complex
at all. They sometimes put in room stats that when satisfied cut the
pump
and Kickspaces.

But still needs an extra pump, surely??

That is not extra complexity at all. Pumps are about the same price as zone
valves. You could use the one pump and a three way valve and arrange the
piping accordingly, but that "is" more complexity.


OK. That's what I imagined.


---

..andy

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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:34:10 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:55:54 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Not extra complexity at all. Just a pump and flow and return for the
kickspaces from the heat bank/thermal store. I wouldn't call that
complex
at all. They sometimes put in room stats that when satisfied cut the
pump
and Kickspaces.

But still needs an extra pump, surely??

That is not extra complexity at all. Pumps are about the same price as
zone
valves. You could use the one pump and a three way valve and arrange the
piping accordingly, but that "is" more complexity.

OK. That's what I imagined.

In the USA, they would use a bronze pump and connect the fan heater onto the
fresh water supply from the cylinder, pumping fresh water to the convector
heater. In theory there is nothing wrong with this, and in practice
millions are done this way.




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On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:09:28 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



In the USA, they would use a bronze pump and connect the fan heater onto the
fresh water supply from the cylinder, pumping fresh water to the convector
heater. In theory there is nothing wrong with this, and in practice
millions are done this way.


They have some very strange ideas regarding plumbing. The water
heaters have to be seen to be believed in terms of antiquated
technology. PVC pipes for pressure applications undergound......







---

..andy

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On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:06:05 +0000, Andrew wrote:

In article .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:47:17 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"IMM" writes:

"fred" wrote in message ...
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.
Inlet & exhaust need to be separated by 200mm.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.

The instructions for my Celcius 25 say a 'minimum' of 200mm, and
explicitly state no maximum distance. I also recall something about
not being permitted on opposite sides of a building but I can't find
that now -- it might have been in the instructions of a different
boiler I was considering at the time.

It is in there somewhere - I suspect that because terminals on
opposite side of the building are explicitly forbidden in the regs.
I also suspect that having an instruction which is directly opposite to the
regs would cause much confusion and would have casued a great deal of
problems getting [Gas Council] type approval.

The OP should note that for a long rise (over 4m) on the flue a seperate
drain and trap should be provided for condensate at the bottom of the
ascent.

My own C25 takes air from a passage way under the house and terminates
vertically through the (flat) roof.

I've yet to see the plume as the boiler is only on when someone's having a
bath (reheating the cylinder) or for odd quater-hours here and there.

So what do you use for space heating ? - just curious. £800 for a Keston
is an expensive way of heating water.

That's what the odd 1/4 hours are doing, basically replacing the radiator
contents with luke warm water. Also the heat requirements are very limited
having excellant insulation (neighbours) on both side and above the house
and double glazing.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html