Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?

--
Andrew (change P to K in s.ydata to reply)

In article , Andrew andrew@
sPydata.uklinux.net writes
Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.
They seem like be a nice bunch, I spoke to them a bit before deciding that
I couldn't justify the extra cost of their (excellent) boiler. I chose the
Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.
I have it in the corner of my kitchen and do not consider it to be
excessively noisy, but this is a long way away from the main kitchen
action. It does have a powerful flue fan which is noticeable and could be
obtrusive in a quieter area. I will be boxing mine in the long term.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point. Roof line sounds
good, but be aware that you are not allowed dips in the route - soffit might
be ok. Inlet & exhaust need to be separated by 200mm. Check out the pdf
downloads at:
http://www.keston.co.uk/products/celsius25.htm
--
fred

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , Andrew andrew@
sPydata.uklinux.net writes
Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.
They seem like be a nice bunch, I spoke to them a bit before deciding that
I couldn't justify the extra cost of their (excellent) boiler. I chose the
Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.
I have it in the corner of my kitchen and do not consider it to be
excessively noisy, but this is a long way away from the main kitchen
action. It does have a powerful flue fan which is noticeable and could be
obtrusive in a quieter area. I will be boxing mine in the long term.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.


---
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In article , IMM abuse-
writes

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , Andrew andrew@
sPydata.uklinux.net writes
Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.
They seem like be a nice bunch, I spoke to them a bit before deciding that
I couldn't justify the extra cost of their (excellent) boiler. I chose the
Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.
I have it in the corner of my kitchen and do not consider it to be
excessively noisy, but this is a long way away from the main kitchen
action. It does have a powerful flue fan which is noticeable and could be
obtrusive in a quieter area. I will be boxing mine in the long term.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.

If the air intake is taken to an external wall and the exhaust to the roof
ridge then there is a danger of wind pressure imbalancing the flue. I agree
that if the intake air was taken from a wind neutral space, say underfloor,
then that argument would be voided, but Keston specifically state that
taking air from underfloor (or not from outside) will void the warranty. I
assume that they are concerned about intake of dust etc into the
combustion space and resulting damage.

Through necessity, my own intake & flueing arrangements are somewhat
unusual, but I am not prepared to pass it on as a model for general
consumption.

By contrast, the Eco Hometec guys are quite happy with you taking the
inlet from neutral airspace and suggested to me that I could take intake
from an unused but vented chimney which could then house a flexible liner
for the exhaust. The difference in system cost however was IIRC
600-800quid.
--
fred

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , IMM abuse-
writes

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , Andrew andrew@
sPydata.uklinux.net writes
Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours
then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the
Keston.
They seem like be a nice bunch, I spoke to them a bit before deciding
that
I couldn't justify the extra cost of their (excellent) boiler. I chose
the
Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.
I have it in the corner of my kitchen and do not consider it to be
excessively noisy, but this is a long way away from the main kitchen
action. It does have a powerful flue fan which is noticeable and could
be
obtrusive in a quieter area. I will be boxing mine in the long term.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the
flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards
rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then
either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the
'high
tide mark' ?
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air
feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge
tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low
level.

If the air intake is taken to an external wall and the exhaust to the roof
ridge then there is a danger of wind pressure imbalancing the flue.

So little it is not worth considering. "most" twin pipes systems can have
exhaust and air intake in different locations, that one of the clear
advantages of twin pipes.

I agree
that if the intake air was taken from a wind neutral space, say
underfloor,
then that argument would be voided, but Keston specifically state that
taking air from underfloor (or not from outside) will void the warranty. I
assume that they are concerned about intake of dust etc into the
combustion space and resulting damage.

I didn't say take the air from the airspace under the floor. This would
drag very cold air under the floor cooling the house, the same with taking
it from a vented loft space too (this is silly as insulation dust could be
dragged in.



---
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In article ,
"IMM" writes:

"fred" wrote in message ...
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.
Inlet & exhaust need to be separated by 200mm.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.

The instructions for my Celcius 25 say a 'minimum' of 200mm, and
explicitly state no maximum distance. I also recall something about
not being permitted on opposite sides of a building but I can't find
that now -- it might have been in the instructions of a different
boiler I was considering at the time.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:47:17 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"IMM" writes:

"fred" wrote in message ...
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.
Inlet & exhaust need to be separated by 200mm.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.

The instructions for my Celcius 25 say a 'minimum' of 200mm, and
explicitly state no maximum distance. I also recall something about
not being permitted on opposite sides of a building but I can't find
that now -- it might have been in the instructions of a different
boiler I was considering at the time.

It is in there somewhere - I suspect that because terminals on
opposite side of the building are explicitly forbidden in the regs.
I also suspect that having an instruction which is directly opposite to the
regs would cause much confusion and would have casued a great deal of
problems getting [Gas Council] type approval.

The OP should note that for a long rise (over 4m) on the flue a seperate
drain and trap should be provided for condensate at the bottom of the
ascent.

My own C25 takes air from a passage way under the house and terminates
vertically through the (flat) roof.

I've yet to see the plume as the boiler is only on when someone's having a
bath (reheating the cylinder) or for odd quater-hours here and there.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:47:17 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"IMM" writes:

"fred" wrote in message ...
They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means
running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point.
Inlet & exhaust need to be separated by 200mm.

Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed
can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near
each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile
and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.

The instructions for my Celcius 25 say a 'minimum' of 200mm, and
explicitly state no maximum distance. I also recall something about
not being permitted on opposite sides of a building but I can't find
that now -- it might have been in the instructions of a different
boiler I was considering at the time.

It is in there somewhere - I suspect that because terminals on
opposite side of the building are explicitly forbidden in the regs.
I also suspect that having an instruction which is directly opposite to the
regs would cause much confusion and would have casued a great deal of
problems getting [Gas Council] type approval.

The OP should note that for a long rise (over 4m) on the flue a seperate
drain and trap should be provided for condensate at the bottom of the
ascent.

My own C25 takes air from a passage way under the house and terminates
vertically through the (flat) roof.

I've yet to see the plume as the boiler is only on when someone's having a
bath (reheating the cylinder) or for odd quater-hours here and there.

So what do you use for space heating ? - just curious. £800 for a Keston
is an expensive way of heating water.
--
Andrew
Change P to k to reply

Andrew wrote:

snip

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?

--
Andrew (change P to K in s.ydata to reply)

ROTFL!

You may have had a genteel upbringing and never participated in a 'light the
fart' experiment in your teens.

Waste gasses both directly from humans and indirectly from decaying waste
material such as in drains contain methane which is inflammable.

You migth get a blowback in the toilets etc

Bob

In article , Bob Minchin
writes
Andrew wrote:

snip

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?

--
Andrew (change P to K in s.ydata to reply)

ROTFL!

You may have had a genteel upbringing and never participated in a 'light the
fart' experiment in your teens.

Waste gasses both directly from humans and indirectly from decaying waste
material such as in drains contain methane which is inflammable.

You migth get a blowback in the toilets etc

Bob



Maybe I should rephrase that - why can't I convert the top section of
the waste stack so that the 2" mupvc flue enters at 1st floor ceiling
height and exits up through the roof *inside* the waste stack.That way
the flue terminal pokes out above the stack by say 6 inches and the
remaining cross section is still used to vent the stack. Since we are
only discharging acidic steam at this point where does the possibility
of exploding methane come into it ?
--
Andrew (change .P. to .k. to reply)

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
Maybe I should rephrase that - why can't I convert the top section of
the waste stack so that the 2" mupvc flue enters at 1st floor ceiling
height and exits up through the roof *inside* the waste stack.That way
the flue terminal pokes out above the stack by say 6 inches and the
remaining cross section is still used to vent the stack. Since we are
only discharging acidic steam at this point where does the possibility
of exploding methane come into it ?

Andrew,

There a number of options here. Firstly the waste pipe used for the exhaust
of a Keston has to be mPVC, which is more heat resistant. You can put an
air admittance valve on the top of the existing 110mm plastic stack in the
loft. Then use the same hole in the roof to run the Keston exhaust. The
existing hole maybe too big for the 2 to 2.5" exhaust pipe of the Keston.
Then it may be wise to use mPVC 110mm pipe for the section that runs through
the roof tiles. A bird guard must be fitted on the top of the 110mm pipe.
Then you have no need to go outside on the roof. The air intake can be
terminated at the eves.

Or remove the stack completly and use hepVO drain traps on all the upstairs
appliances.
see:
http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk/ and click on HepVO.

Good thinking Andrew. I never ROFLed




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On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:48:59 +0000, Andrew
wrote:




Maybe I should rephrase that - why can't I convert the top section of
the waste stack so that the 2" mupvc flue enters at 1st floor ceiling
height and exits up through the roof *inside* the waste stack.That way
the flue terminal pokes out above the stack by say 6 inches and the
remaining cross section is still used to vent the stack. Since we are
only discharging acidic steam at this point where does the possibility
of exploding methane come into it ?


It's pretty much academic.

If you download the Keston installation manual, you will find that it
refers to specific British standards on where flues may run and be
located, and adds some manufacturer specific options, which the
regulations allow.

If you want to do something different, then it would be advisable to
contact the manufacturer's technical department.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andrew wrote:

In article , Bob Minchin
writes
Andrew wrote:

snip

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?

--
Andrew (change P to K in s.ydata to reply)

ROTFL!

You may have had a genteel upbringing and never participated in a 'light the
fart' experiment in your teens.

Waste gasses both directly from humans and indirectly from decaying waste
material such as in drains contain methane which is inflammable.

You migth get a blowback in the toilets etc

Bob



Maybe I should rephrase that - why can't I convert the top section of
the waste stack so that the 2" mupvc flue enters at 1st floor ceiling
height and exits up through the roof *inside* the waste stack.That way
the flue terminal pokes out above the stack by say 6 inches and the
remaining cross section is still used to vent the stack. Since we are
only discharging acidic steam at this point where does the possibility
of exploding methane come into it ?
--
Andrew (change .P. to .k. to reply)

Ok that gives me a better picture. Is there anything to stop drain sourced
methane falling down the boiler flue (when it is not lit) and getting into the
combustion chamber? I'm not familiar with keston boilers.. As someone else has
suggested, the manufacturer might be able to help. Doesn't heating come under
bldg regs now? How about asking the council technical services people who are
usually most helpful?

Bob

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West
show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).

Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then
given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.

Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6
feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue
can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear
of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either
up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.

Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high
tide mark' ?

In theory this sounds fine. But, the stack is open so air is drawn in to
prevent suction as large volumes of water go down the waste (like a bath
emptying along with the washing machine and dishwasher). Dragging toxic
fumes into a sewer is rather naughty.


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Andrew wrote in message ...

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.

I've just moved into a house with a Keston K130 installed on the
outside wall of a large airing cupboard (constructed of plasterboard)
on the middle floor of 3. I wouldnt want to try to sleep in the room
next to it and it's easily audible from the room above. It is a LOT
noisier than the gloworm combi i had in my last place. We're going
think about adding some sound insulation to the airing cupboard. Our
manual recommends against attaching to partition walls.

I've no comparison to other condensing boilers so this may be typical
and mine is a different model to the Celsius so YMMV.

In article , anthony
james writes
Andrew wrote in message
...

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.

I've just moved into a house with a Keston K130 installed on the
outside wall of a large airing cupboard (constructed of plasterboard)
on the middle floor of 3. I wouldnt want to try to sleep in the room
next to it and it's easily audible from the room above. It is a LOT
noisier than the gloworm combi i had in my last place. We're going
think about adding some sound insulation to the airing cupboard. Our
manual recommends against attaching to partition walls.

I've no comparison to other condensing boilers so this may be typical
and mine is a different model to the Celsius so YMMV.

I've recently got a Celsius 25 in the kitchen and I think it's extremely
quiet; I was worried by that statement in the instructions as well.

You can tell it's running when on "full burn", on lower speeds you have
to look at the indicators to tell if it's on or not. Even on full
throttle it makes about the same noise as the fridge. I wouldn't worry
about it.
--
Tim Mitchell

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 05:42:51 +0000, anthony james wrote:

Andrew wrote in message ...

In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says
consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living
area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.

I've just moved into a house with a Keston K130 installed on the
outside wall of a large airing cupboard (constructed of plasterboard)
on the middle floor of 3. I wouldnt want to try to sleep in the room
next to it and it's easily audible from the room above. It is a LOT
noisier than the gloworm combi i had in my last place. We're going
think about adding some sound insulation to the airing cupboard. Our
manual recommends against attaching to partition walls.

I've no comparison to other condensing boilers so this may be typical
and mine is a different model to the Celsius so YMMV.

The C130 is much a bigger and noisier boiler and a susperceded model.
My own Celsius 25 is in a cupboard on the landing and I can't tell whether
it is going or not - even for the first minute when it goes flat out.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html