Hi Folks,

To show my appreciation to the wreck for all your help and support I
thought I would do something completely different this year.

How about a HALF PRICE sale!

Well, there are some strings attached...

First, I'm only offering one particular configuration of TS-Aligner Jr.
at half price (top teir dealer pricing). It's not a stripped down
model but it's also not a premium version. You get the complete
TS-Aligner Jr. with the Storage Case and the DVD but only one choice of
dial indicator: the standard MHC brand:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/optional-i...s.htm#Standard

No other parts or accessories or configurations are included in this
offer. The units will be brand new with the standard warranty and
everything.

Second, you have to buy a whole case of Jr's at once (16 units) - all
shipped to a single address. So, the offer isn't such a great deal for
someone who doesn't belong to a group or doesn't have any friends.
But, this is rec.woodworking. If you are reading this message then you
are already part of a really big group! All you guys have to do is
decide which of you is trustworthy enough to organize the purchase and
distribute the Aligners when they come in.

Third, the offer has a specific and limited duration. It will start on
November 1, 2006 and end on December 31, 2006.

Early Bird Ebay Offer:

As an experiment I have put up one case of these TS-Aligner Jr's on
Ebay. If you want, you can get a jump on the promotion by taking
advantage of it. It is item #150051217493. Look here for all the
details:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ME:L:DSS:US:11

Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. If you think
the group would benefit from the answer please feel free to post your
question/comment here. It would also make sense to use this thread to
organize your purchase(s). I will post a message to this thread on
November 1 with the URL of the page where cases of Jr's can be
purchased online. I will also be posting reminders to this thread
throughout the promotion to make sure that everyone who visits the
wreck gets a chance to see it.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett


http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner

WTF is this???????? Sounds - Looks - Walks, like SPAM!
wrote in message
oups.com...
| Hi Folks,
|
| To show my appreciation to the wreck for all your help and support I
| thought I would do something completely different this year.
|
| How about a HALF PRICE sale!
|
| Well, there are some strings attached...
|
| First, I'm only offering one particular configuration of TS-Aligner
Jr.
| at half price (top teir dealer pricing). It's not a stripped down
| model but it's also not a premium version. You get the complete
| TS-Aligner Jr. with the Storage Case and the DVD but only one choice
of
| dial indicator: the standard MHC brand:
|
| http://www.ts-aligner.com/optional-i...s.htm#Standard
|
| No other parts or accessories or configurations are included in this
| offer. The units will be brand new with the standard warranty and
| everything.
|
| Second, you have to buy a whole case of Jr's at once (16 units) - all
| shipped to a single address. So, the offer isn't such a great deal
for
| someone who doesn't belong to a group or doesn't have any friends.
| But, this is rec.woodworking. If you are reading this message then
you
| are already part of a really big group! All you guys have to do is
| decide which of you is trustworthy enough to organize the purchase and
| distribute the Aligners when they come in.
|
| Third, the offer has a specific and limited duration. It will start
on
| November 1, 2006 and end on December 31, 2006.
|
| Early Bird Ebay Offer:
|
| As an experiment I have put up one case of these TS-Aligner Jr's on
| Ebay. If you want, you can get a jump on the promotion by taking
| advantage of it. It is item #150051217493. Look here for all the
| details:
|
|
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ME:L:DSS:US:11
|
| Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. If you
think
| the group would benefit from the answer please feel free to post your
| question/comment here. It would also make sense to use this thread to
| organize your purchase(s). I will post a message to this thread on
| November 1 with the URL of the page where cases of Jr's can be
| purchased online. I will also be posting reminders to this thread
| throughout the promotion to make sure that everyone who visits the
| wreck gets a chance to see it.
|
| Thanks,
| Ed Bennett
|
|
| http://www.ts-aligner.com
| Home of the TS-Aligner
|

"notmenotnow" wrote in message
. ..
WTF is this???????? Sounds - Looks - Walks, like SPAM!

Mr Bennett contributes here and provides technical expertise into the
precise alignment of tools. If technical expertise and meaningful
discussions offend you, please go elsewhere.

He is elsewhere in this newsgroup right now offering assistance to somebody
who who damaged his tablesaw. Have you made an expert contribution to that
thread?

notmenotnow wrote:

WTF is this???????? Sounds - Looks - Walks, like SPAM!

Might want to look before you leap - to a conclusion.

The gentleman in question has been an active contributor to
this group for at least 7 years that I know of, has a very
well thought out and useful set of set up devices product
line which he often makes available to members of this
group at special prices.

I have a Robland combination machine which has a dovetail
shaped miter slot that's quite different from what is found
no Delta and PowerMatic table saws. Mr. Bennett modified
one of his TS-Aligner Junior Deluxe units to accomodate
the Robland - at no additional cost. He has since added
a Robland version of the TS-Aligner to his product line. I
hope my recomendation of the TS-aligner to members of
the yahoo Robland X31 group resulted in some sales for
Mr. Bennett, and made setting up the X31 a little easier
for members of the group.

Oh, BTW - when Steve Knight of Knight Toolworks posts
something about a new handplane for sale - PLEASE
don't go off on him as a spammer.

And if Doug Stowe posts that he has a new book out
DON'T call him a spammer either.

If a Mr. Lee posts what you may think is an ad for
a product let it slide - and do a google search on
Groups - subject "Lee Valley" or -author "Robin Lee".

You're new here. Chill a little and get to know the
group a little better before going off on someone.
Lots of folks here with a lot of knowledge and
experience to share - much of which you will find
very useful.

Welcome to the group. Look foreward to your
questions and answers.

charlie b

PS - add Pat Warner to your list of people not to call spammers
(how could I forget him in my previous post? dumb!)

charlie b

Thanks Charlie,

I'm not sure that there is anybody around to remember, but I think I
posted my first message to the group in 1994 (about 12 years ago!).
Perhaps some people still remember the dark days of the "Bennett Wars".
I recently found some of those messages and was pretty embarrassed!
What a learning experience.

It was in 1995 that I put a lot of ideas from group members together to
create TS-Aligner Jr. (it's why I think that this offer is so
appropriate). I cobbled together a prototype and took it with me to
the American Woodworker (pre Reader's Digest) show in Philadelphia. It
has evolved a lot over the years because of continued involvement from
members like you. Thanks!

The page for ordering 16 unit bulk packs of Jr's is now up:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/recwworderform.htm

I hope that this works out well for members of the group, their
friends, associates, relatives, and anyone else who is interested. If
people really don't think that this is a useful offer, then please let
me know what would be better.

I figured that at least one self appointed spam enforcement official
would cry foul. I really don't have to do anything for the group. I
don't have to share my expertise. I don't have to offer any special
deals to rec.woodworking members. I could just sit by, passivly
gathering email addresses for a spam list or gleaning ideas for new
products, taking advantage of the group without ever offering to return
the favor. There are a whole bunch of manufacturers and dealers doing
exactly that. They read this group daily and do nothing in return.
But, I choose to do things a little differently. And, I'm very
encouraged by those who recognize the effort. It leads me to believe
that this group still has a lot going for it.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

charlie b wrote:
notmenotnow wrote:

WTF is this???????? Sounds - Looks - Walks, like SPAM!

Might want to look before you leap - to a conclusion.

The gentleman in question has been an active contributor to
this group for at least 7 years that I know of, has a very
well thought out and useful set of set up devices product
line which he often makes available to members of this
group at special prices.

I have a Robland combination machine which has a dovetail
shaped miter slot that's quite different from what is found
no Delta and PowerMatic table saws. Mr. Bennett modified
one of his TS-Aligner Junior Deluxe units to accomodate
the Robland - at no additional cost. He has since added
a Robland version of the TS-Aligner to his product line. I
hope my recomendation of the TS-aligner to members of
the yahoo Robland X31 group resulted in some sales for
Mr. Bennett, and made setting up the X31 a little easier
for members of the group.

Oh, BTW - when Steve Knight of Knight Toolworks posts
something about a new handplane for sale - PLEASE
don't go off on him as a spammer.

And if Doug Stowe posts that he has a new book out
DON'T call him a spammer either.

If a Mr. Lee posts what you may think is an ad for
a product let it slide - and do a google search on
Groups - subject "Lee Valley" or -author "Robin Lee".

You're new here. Chill a little and get to know the
group a little better before going off on someone.
Lots of folks here with a lot of knowledge and
experience to share - much of which you will find
very useful.

Welcome to the group. Look foreward to your
questions and answers.

charlie b

And notmenow's apology to Ed, I'm sure, will be forthcoming any time now.


-- Andy Barss

notmenotnow wrote:
WTF is this???????? Sounds - Looks - Walks, like SPAM!

I am the proud owner of a TS-Aligner Jr. I don't use it every day, but
when I do use it, I find it indispensable. It is a very
well-thought-out precision instrument, and I'm quite happy with my
purchase. My point is, I never would have known that such a tool
existed if it were not for Mr. Bennett's posts to this forum. Thanks
Ed, and your occassional "spams" are welcome in my book.

DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

One of the things that has completely ruined other "hobby" type
newsgroups that I've spent years on has been people trying to make a
profit from the group. What happens is that the number of profiteers
increases over time. The group then turns into nothing but a bunch of
marketers and is no longer useful to anyone in the hobby. Fights erupt
when multiple people try to market the same product or when someone
profits off the free advice of another. Marketers then become less
"hobbiest" and more business men.

I really hope this group doesn't degrade into that because I've already
left two hobbies behind that have gone that route. I mention this for
everyone to consider. If there is no line drawn then ads from every
marketer of woodworking products will flood this group. I've watched
it happen. What's the difference between the OP and incra, delta or
any other manufacturer? I also think the OP was pretty bold to suggest
that we all pull together in order to make a bulk purchase. A purchase
that would basically send $1K+ in his direction. This is also a
practice I've seen in the two forementioned newsgroups.

I don't mind it when people who have products to sell come here to
exchange ideas and talk about woodworking. I'd just rather see them
limit their marketing to their own website. A hyperlink in your
signature is a lot less intrusive and would be less likely to offend
people than a blatant advertisement.

That's my .02 worth.

wrote in message
ups.com...
One of the things that has completely ruined other "hobby" type
newsgroups that I've spent years on has been people trying to make a
profit from the group. What happens is that the number of profiteers
increases over time. The group then turns into nothing but a bunch of
marketers and is no longer useful to anyone in the hobby. Fights erupt
when multiple people try to market the same product or when someone
profits off the free advice of another. Marketers then become less
"hobbiest" and more business men.

I really hope this group doesn't degrade into that because I've already
left two hobbies behind that have gone that route. I mention this for
everyone to consider. If there is no line drawn then ads from every
marketer of woodworking products will flood this group. I've watched
it happen. What's the difference between the OP and incra, delta or
any other manufacturer? I also think the OP was pretty bold to suggest
that we all pull together in order to make a bulk purchase. A purchase
that would basically send $1K+ in his direction. This is also a
practice I've seen in the two forementioned newsgroups.

I don't mind it when people who have products to sell come here to
exchange ideas and talk about woodworking. I'd just rather see them
limit their marketing to their own website. A hyperlink in your
signature is a lot less intrusive and would be less likely to offend
people than a blatant advertisement.

That's my .02 worth.

If you get offended by good people offering good advice, you should move
elswhere.

Maybe the basketweaving and cross stitching newsgroups can meet your high
standards of non involvement.

" writes:

What's the difference between the OP and incra, delta or
any other manufacturer? I also think the OP was pretty bold to suggest
that we all pull together in order to make a bulk purchase.

Incra, Delta etc. doesn't post here. Ed does. As does Steve Knight,
Robin Lee, etc.

The issues, as I see it, are
1) Is it excessive?

Well, it's been a year since the last special for TS Aligner Jr.
I bought one last year. Recommended if your budget can afford it.
I don't think 1 or 2 posts a year are excessive.

2) Is he responsive to consumers?

If a vendor treats this newsgroup as "write only memory" and
ignores all complaints, then they deserve what happens to them.

3) Is it purposely hard to filter?

Some trolls always change their name, subject, etc. and make
it hard to filter their announcements. Ed does not.
If you don't want to read about the TS Aligner - don't.

A purchase
that would basically send $1K+ in his direction. This is also a
practice I've seen in the two forementioned newsgroups.

So? I see more messages about people bitching than I see about the
original message. If some club wants to do a bulk order - fine. It
might work. It might not. You should be able to ignore one post a
year, and you should know how to use kill files if you don't want to
read anything by Ed, or anything about his promotions.

The other forums I visit have worse problems than vendors who
participate - like politics.

I too have seen forums degrade - and agree that speaking up when you
see a problem is the right thing to do.

But this is the FIRST time Ed made an offer for a bulk purchase.
I don't think Ed is doing the wrong thing here.

And I'd guess that the other vendors you had a problem with were much
less responsive than Ed is. I think you need to cut him some slack.



--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

In article . com, " wrote:
One of the things that has completely ruined other "hobby" type
newsgroups that I've spent years on has been people trying to make a
profit from the group. What happens is that the number of profiteers
increases over time. The group then turns into nothing but a bunch of
marketers and is no longer useful to anyone in the hobby. Fights erupt
when multiple people try to market the same product or when someone
profits off the free advice of another. Marketers then become less
"hobbiest" and more business men.

I really hope this group doesn't degrade into that because I've already
left two hobbies behind that have gone that route. I mention this for
everyone to consider. If there is no line drawn then ads from every
marketer of woodworking products will flood this group. I've watched
it happen. What's the difference between the OP and incra, delta or
any other manufacturer? I also think the OP was pretty bold to suggest
that we all pull together in order to make a bulk purchase. A purchase
that would basically send $1K+ in his direction. This is also a
practice I've seen in the two forementioned newsgroups.

I don't mind it when people who have products to sell come here to
exchange ideas and talk about woodworking. I'd just rather see them
limit their marketing to their own website. A hyperlink in your
signature is a lot less intrusive and would be less likely to offend
people than a blatant advertisement.

That's my .02 worth.

Ed Bennett has contributed plenty to this group, and I and many others here
are enthusiastic users of his alignment tools. Without Ed's posts to the
group, I would never have known that they exist. Ed's marketing is never
"hard-sell". His posts consist mostly of "here it is, it works, but don't just
take my word for it, ask around." Very low key, very professional -- and very
much appreciated, too.

You're not (quite) the only one here to feel the way you do -- but you are in
a very small minority, and it seems to me that the group would suffer much
more from Ed's departure than from yours.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Bruce Barnett wrote:

And I'd guess that the other vendors you had a problem with were much
less responsive than Ed is. I think you need to cut him some slack.



Ditto that.

Many of the vendors who post here are quick to add useful woodworking
information that often has little to do with the particular product they
sell.

Lee Michaels wrote:
If you get offended by good people offering good advice, you should move
elswhere.

Never said I personally was offended but I can tell you that I won't
buy Ed's product based solely on the fact that he's taking advantage of
this forum to make a buck. I achieve the same thing at a much lower
cost anyway.


Maybe the basketweaving and cross stitching newsgroups can meet your high
standards of non involvement.

Whitewater Kayaking and Unicycling. Arcade Collecting is getting real
close to being worthless too.

There's no purpose in being synical about someone pointing out a
problem that is bound to become worse. I was trying to offer something
constructive while you obviously responded for the sake of criticizing
me. It would be nice to see some positive responses instead, such as
starting a group for woodworking vendors. If I wanted to look for
woodworking products (or spam) then I could go to that group and
browse. Instead I have to keep updating kill filters.

I realize that's the nature of usenet today but that's not the original
intent of it. I worked on the usenet software back in the early 80's
when I was a Marine. We were trying to take what Duke and Chapel Hill
had done and create an equivalent for the military. The purpose was to
allow people to educate and collaborate. The usenet of today is
quickly morphing from its root purpose into a system that's destined to
be inundated with commercial interests. The end result is that the
original purpose is not only lost but ceases to exist.

My original post in this thread was a "heads up" of what's to come and
a suggestion that the money makers respect the purpose of the group.
The responses I received from members were expected as this is exactly
what's happened along the way as other groups have deteriorated.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, " wrote:
You're not (quite) the only one here to feel the way you do -- but you are in
a very small minority, and it seems to me that the group would suffer much
more from Ed's departure than from yours.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

It's interesting that you speak for what you suggest is "the majority"
and categorize me as "the minority". I didn't realize you were
president of this here usenet group. You must be a real important guy
- much more important than anyone else here. After all, you get to
decide who is more important than who. Perhaps you could share your
"org" chart with me so I can figure out where I fit in.

I didn't see a large number of responses for or against commercial
advertisements, which makes it impossible to determine what the
minority or majority thinks about the issue. Your attempt to minimize
my involvement and interest in woodworking has nothing to do with
facts. But your response is familiar. Exactly what I've seen in other
groups before they stopped being a place for hobbiests to meet.

Lee Michaels wrote:
If you get offended by good people offering good advice, you should move
elswhere.

Never said I personally was offended but I can tell you that I won't
buy Ed's product based solely on the fact that he's taking advantage of
this forum to make a buck. I achieve the same thing at a much lower
cost anyway.


Oh my god, I am being taken advantage of. I was not aware of this.

And the folks who come by and help us are entitled to make a buck. They
listen to us and we listen to them. And Ed's product, in particular, came
about to meet a need. And he has helped a lot of people learn about tuning
their saws.

The wreck would be a droll place if only folks with home shops just came
here. The professionals add a lot of expertise and knowledge to this forum.
And some of them even make a dreaded buck or two.

A tradtional rule in web forums is that it is spamming if you contribute
nothing. It ain't if you participate in a manner where expertise and
knowledge is communicated. Perhaps you have difficulty with the concepts of
communication, expertise and knowledge.




Maybe the basketweaving and cross stitching newsgroups can meet your high
standards of non involvement.

Whitewater Kayaking and Unicycling. Arcade Collecting is getting real
close to being worthless too.

There's no purpose in being synical about someone pointing out a
problem that is bound to become worse. I was trying to offer something
constructive while you obviously responded for the sake of criticizing
me. It would be nice to see some positive responses instead, such as
starting a group for woodworking vendors. If I wanted to look for
woodworking products (or spam) then I could go to that group and
browse. Instead I have to keep updating kill filters.


I am being "synical"??? You are offering constructive criticism?? I am
OBVIOUSLY responding in this fashion "for the sake of criticizing
you". It must be tough living in a world where everything happens because
of YOU.

I place a high value on information, creativity solutions to problems. I
don't discriminate on the basis of race, religion, politics or the fact they
may be be involved in a dreaded business. If the can help, inform or
entertain me, I appreciate and accept them. It is that simple.

One of the biggest impediments to using the web to its fullest is all the
whining net nannies. Since it is a great burden to updating your kill
filters to filter out all knowledgable people, I will try to help. I will
killfile you so as to not have to deal with your constant whining. There,
feel better?


I realize that's the nature of usenet today but that's not the original
intent of it. I worked on the usenet software back in the early 80's
when I was a Marine. We were trying to take what Duke and Chapel Hill
had done and create an equivalent for the military. The purpose was to
allow people to educate and collaborate. The usenet of today is
quickly morphing from its root purpose into a system that's destined to
be inundated with commercial interests. The end result is that the
original purpose is not only lost but ceases to exist.


Gee, the world is changeing. Does your whining help bring back the good old
days?

It may come as a great shock to you. but many people find the wreck to be
just fine. Even if it does not achieve some utopian ideal of yours.


My original post in this thread was a "heads up" of what's to come and
a suggestion that the money makers respect the purpose of the group.
The responses I received from members were expected as this is exactly
what's happened along the way as other groups have deteriorated.


You really have a thing for "money makers" don't you? Is it beyond your
comprehension that people can come together for a common benefit. And even
include a few of these dreaded "moneymakers".

I am here to tell you that these so called "moneymakers" have contributed
much to this newsgroup. We don't need your warnings of doom and gloom.

That is all I am going to say about this.

Into the bozo bucket for you.




Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com,
" wrote:
You're not (quite) the only one here to feel the way you do -- but you
are in
a very small minority, and it seems to me that the group would suffer
much
more from Ed's departure than from yours.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

It's interesting that you speak for what you suggest is "the majority"
and categorize me as "the minority". I didn't realize you were
president of this here usenet group. You must be a real important guy
- much more important than anyone else here. After all, you get to
decide who is more important than who. Perhaps you could share your
"org" chart with me so I can figure out where I fit in.

I didn't see a large number of responses for or against commercial
advertisements, which makes it impossible to determine what the
minority or majority thinks about the issue. Your attempt to minimize
my involvement and interest in woodworking has nothing to do with
facts. But your response is familiar. Exactly what I've seen in other
groups before they stopped being a place for hobbiests to meet.

wrote:

There's no purpose in being synical about someone pointing out a
problem that is bound to become worse.

What a patronizing pant-load of crap. Ed's been around the wreck far longer
than you and is quite generous with help and advice. So your "prediction"
that Ed is the harbinger of the wreck's downfall is nonsense.

I was trying to offer
something
constructive while you obviously responded for the sake of criticizing
me.

That is the type of response on would expect from someone who thinks the
world revovles around them.

It would be nice to see some positive responses instead, such as
starting a group for woodworking vendors.

In *your* opinion you don't see the responses as positive. And you are free
to start any kind of group you wish.

If I wanted to look for
woodworking products (or spam) then I could go to that group and
browse. Instead I have to keep updating kill filters.

Yup, as I said, you think things should revolve around *your* wishes and
desires. But please continue. Now, share some stories about your long-time
experience with usenet that makes you special. Go on, don't be bashful.

I realize that's the nature of usenet today but that's not the
original
intent of it. I worked on the usenet software back in the early 80's
when I was a Marine. We were trying to take what Duke and Chapel Hill
had done and create an equivalent for the military. The purpose was
to
allow people to educate and collaborate. The usenet of today is
quickly morphing from its root purpose into a system that's destined
to
be inundated with commercial interests. The end result is that the
original purpose is not only lost but ceases to exist.

Just a sec......brush, brush, brush, ACHOO, sniff, cough Sorry; those
tales of yore sure stir up a lot of dust when dragged out of storage.

My original post in this thread was a "heads up" of what's to come and
a suggestion that the money makers respect the purpose of the group.
The responses I received from members were expected as this is exactly
what's happened along the way as other groups have deteriorated.

Sure, that's the explanation. Or maybe it's that Ed is seen as one of our
own and you are viewed as a meddling outsider?

Doug Miller wrote:
You're not (quite)
the only one here to feel the way you do -- but you are in
a very small minority, and it seems to me that the group would
suffer much
more from Ed's departure than from yours.

It's interesting that you speak for what you suggest is "the majority"
and categorize me as "the minority". I didn't realize you were
president of this here usenet group.

Now that is clever. I've never heard that line before.

You must be a real important guy
- much more important than anyone else here. After all, you get to
decide who is more important than who. Perhaps you could share your
"org" chart with me so I can figure out where I fit in.

Truly spoken by someone who seems to have trouble fitting in.

I didn't see a large number of responses for or against commercial
advertisements, which makes it impossible to determine what the
minority or majority thinks about the issue.

Doug has been around for quite awhile and knows -- from experience -- the
temperament of the wreck and Ed's contributions here. That does make it
possible for him to know.

Your attempt to minimize
my involvement and interest in woodworking has nothing to do with
facts. But your response is familiar. Exactly what I've seen in
other
groups before they stopped being a place for hobbiests to meet.

I just love the tone of hyperbole in the morning. It sounds like.....
like.......whining.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

In article .com, " wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com,
" wrote:
You're not (quite) the only one here to feel the way you do -- but you are in
a very small minority, and it seems to me that the group would suffer much
more from Ed's departure than from yours.

It's interesting that you speak for what you suggest is "the majority"
and categorize me as "the minority".

My comments are based on observing the number of people who support Ed and his
(actually infrequent) posts here, and those like yourself who oppose his doing
so. On that basis, you *are* in a small minority.

I didn't realize you were
president of this here usenet group. You must be a real important guy
- much more important than anyone else here. After all, you get to
decide who is more important than who.

As opposed to yourself, who thinks he should get to decide who's allowed to
post, and post what, here...

I'm not trying to "decide who is more important than who". My statement is
clearly labelled as my _opinion_. That's what "it seems to me" means.

Seems I was right, too.

Perhaps you could share your
"org" chart with me so I can figure out where I fit in.

Guess.

I didn't see a large number of responses for or against commercial
advertisements, which makes it impossible to determine what the
minority or majority thinks about the issue. Your attempt to minimize
my involvement and interest in woodworking has nothing to do with
facts.

I made no comments at all about your "involvement and interest in
woodworking". I merely offered my opinion on your value to the group, relative
to Ed Bennett's.

Seems I was right, too.

But your response is familiar. Exactly what I've seen in other
groups before they stopped being a place for hobbiests to meet.

Of course you're free to leave whenever you wish. Some folks may try to talk
you into staying.

Some won't.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

" writes:

Never said I personally was offended but I can tell you that I won't
buy Ed's product based solely on the fact that he's taking advantage of
this forum to make a buck. I achieve the same thing at a much lower
cost anyway.

Sure - a dial indicator on a stick can be used, but

1) You don't have an offset bar - letting you measure closer
to the table surface (which increases accuracy)
2) There is no angle measurement
3) Can't use it as a height gauge, (i.e. a jointer)
4) You don't get a spindle rod, letting you measure drill press
tables, etc.

Also - I had a problem trying to get my crosscut sled accurate, and I
send Ed an e-mail. He suggested some options, and solved my problem.

Yeah - it's a deluxe system. I like it.


--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

(Doug Miller) writes:

Ed Bennett has contributed plenty to this group, and I and many
others here are enthusiastic users of his alignment tools. Without
Ed's posts to the group, I would never have known that they
exist. Ed's marketing is never "hard-sell". His posts consist mostly
of "here it is, it works, but don't just take my word for it, ask
around." Very low key, very professional -- and very much
appreciated, too.

Yeah! Well said. Ed's not a sales guy in a suit pushing crap. It's
like he's a regular guy who found a need for a product, made the
product, and started up a small business around this quality product.

This is exactly what we need more of.

Compare this to

Hello! I run a factory in China, and we will mass product
anything you want. Just send us enough money and we can copy
anything. Minimum order is $100,000.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

Doug Miller wrote:
I merely offered my opinion on your value to the group, relative
to Ed Bennett's.

Not mention that Ed has a Cabal card...

B A R R Y wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
I merely offered my opinion on your value to the group, relative
to Ed Bennett's.

Not mention that Ed has a Cabal card...

Shhh.....there is NO Cabal.


--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Dave Bugg wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
I merely offered my opinion on your value to the group, relative
to Ed Bennett's.

Not mention that Ed has a Cabal card...

Shhh.....there is NO Cabal.


Does that mean I get to eat the brownies I made to bribe my way in with?
Joe

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:37:23 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


Into the bozo bucket for you.


To Todd:

You make some good, and IMHO, valid points. They may not be applicable
in this particular case, but that's a judgment call. In general, they
are very good points. This is an unmoderated group and, as such, there
is some, not a lot, but some spam in this group.

A true spammer will just drop off the s**t and be gone. In this
instance, I don't believe that to be the case. But, that's just my
observation. I think most inhabitants of the Wreck just ignore the
spam, as they try, all too often unsuccessfully, to ignore the trolls
that crop up on occasion.

As you've undoubtedly noticed, there are some who feel awfully
paternalistic, defensive and, dare I say, possessive, toward the
Wreck. But, as it should be obvious to all, you are as much an "owner"
of the Wreck as anyone else who's here.

Oh, BTW, Semper Fi! I was there in the 60's, and there are a several
others of us around.

To Lee:

You also, make some valid points. But "whining"? I didn't see that.
Neither do I see a need to block your posts simply because of the ad
hominem contribution to this thread.

To All,

"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by
the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if
you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be
watchful ...." -- Andrew Jackson, Farewell Address, March 4, 1837

And, if I may add to Jackson's words, it serves no good purpose to
attack the watcher when an alarm is raised. Much better to simply, and
dispassionately, educate the watcher if the alarm is false.

In article , Tom Veatch wrote:

And, if I may add to Jackson's words, it serves no good purpose to
attack the watcher when an alarm is raised. Much better to simply, and
dispassionately, educate the watcher if the alarm is false.

OTOH, when the watcher continues to yammer after attempts have been made to
educate him...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

(Doug Miller) wrote in
m:

In article , Tom Veatch
wrote:

And, if I may add to Jackson's words, it serves no good purpose to
attack the watcher when an alarm is raised. Much better to simply, and
dispassionately, educate the watcher if the alarm is false.

OTOH, when the watcher continues to yammer after attempts have been
made to educate him...


MY ignore button works well...

Patriarch

Patriarch wrote:

MY ignore button works well...

Which the TS-Aligner objector could choose to employ, if they were
reasonable.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

wrote:

....a whole bunch of stuff but this one comment caught my attention. I
assume you were referring to the Jr. when you said:

I achieve the same thing at a much lower
cost anyway.

I have to admit that I've heard comments like this many times before
and am always hoping to find some clever new soltions that
comprehensively cover the functions of the Jr. at a "much lower cost".
So far 100% of the people who have said this didn't even bother to look
at the capabilities of the Jr. They just mount a cheap dial indicator
on a stick (or magnetic base) and assume that it does "the same thing".
Some have fashioned fancy gadgets by combinind two or more sticks but
essentially they just do table saw blade and fence alignment. While
there are competitive products which don't do anything more than a dial
indicator on a stick and they do sell for competitive prices, the Jr.
is different.

The question for you is this: Do you really have an innovative
solution?. Can you really "achieve the same thing" as a TS-Aligner Jr.
"at a much lower cost"? I'm naturally curious but I would think that
this is information that the whole group would be very interested in.
By all means, if you believe in the "original intent" of Usenet, share
your knowledge!

While you are busy checking out what a Jr. does, you might also bother
read my philosophy page:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/philosophy.htm

That's where you will learn that I don't sell things that people can
make on their own at a "much lower cost".

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Joe Gorman wrote:
Dave Bugg wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
I merely offered my opinion on your value to the group, relative
to Ed Bennett's.

Not mention that Ed has a Cabal card...

Shhh.....there is NO Cabal.


Does that mean I get to eat the brownies I made to bribe my way in with?
Joe

How long ago did you bake them? I thought membership was closed many
years ago.

Now, where did I put that darn card...

Ed

(in
) said:

| That's where you will learn that I don't sell things that people can
| make on their own at a "much lower cost".

I do - but I tell people that they can make their own cheaper than
they can buy mine - *and* I give free "look and learn" hints to help
'em do it.

vbg

(Sorry, the devil made me do it.)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:

...a whole bunch of stuff but this one comment caught my attention. I
assume you were referring to the Jr. when you said:

I achieve the same thing at a much lower
cost anyway.

I have to admit that I've heard comments like this many times before
and am always hoping to find some clever new soltions that
comprehensively cover the functions of the Jr. at a "much lower cost".
So far 100% of the people who have said this didn't even bother to look
at the capabilities of the Jr. They just mount a cheap dial indicator
on a stick (or magnetic base) and assume that it does "the same thing".
Some have fashioned fancy gadgets by combinind two or more sticks but
essentially they just do table saw blade and fence alignment. While
there are competitive products which don't do anything more than a dial
indicator on a stick and they do sell for competitive prices, the Jr.
is different.

The question for you is this: Do you really have an innovative
solution?. Can you really "achieve the same thing" as a TS-Aligner Jr.
"at a much lower cost"? I'm naturally curious but I would think that
this is information that the whole group would be very interested in.
By all means, if you believe in the "original intent" of Usenet, share
your knowledge!

While you are busy checking out what a Jr. does, you might also bother
read my philosophy page:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/philosophy.htm

That's where you will learn that I don't sell things that people can
make on their own at a "much lower cost".

Good stuff Ed. That is a good page that stands well on its own. I really
don't thaink that many businesses could come up with anything better.

I wonder if the original objector has a philosophy page?

On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 21:17:47 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

OTOH, when the watcher continues to yammer after attempts have been made to
educate him...

Then, I suppose it becomes a case of "What do you do after you 'turn
the other cheek'. Walk away, or call in an air strike?"

No problem Morris!

Actually, I tell people how to make the "dial indicator on a stick" all
the time. I even have a page devoted to comparing its capabilities to
my lowest cost Jr. Lite:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlitevsdistick.htm

Jr. Lite still does a lot more. I think that there's some value to
selling something that people could do on their own. Lots of stuff I
buy falls into that category. I guess it's just my own personal
neurosis which keeps me awake at night if I were to do it.

Ed

Morris Dovey wrote:
(in
) said:

| That's where you will learn that I don't sell things that people can
| make on their own at a "much lower cost".

I do - but I tell people that they can make their own cheaper than
they can buy mine - *and* I give free "look and learn" hints to help
'em do it.

vbg

(Sorry, the devil made me do it.)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

(in
) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| (in
|| ) said:
||
||| That's where you will learn that I don't sell things that people
||| can make on their own at a "much lower cost".
||
|| I do - but I tell people that they can make their own cheaper than
|| they can buy mine - *and* I give free "look and learn" hints to
|| help 'em do it.
||
|| vbg
||
|| (Sorry, the devil made me do it.)

| No problem Morris!
|
| Actually, I tell people how to make the "dial indicator on a stick"
| all the time. I even have a page devoted to comparing its
| capabilities to my lowest cost Jr. Lite:
|
| http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlitevsdistick.htm
|
| Jr. Lite still does a lot more. I think that there's some value to
| selling something that people could do on their own. Lots of stuff
| I buy falls into that category. I guess it's just my own personal
| neurosis which keeps me awake at night if I were to do it.

I know. I've visited your site and done some important looking and
learning there. If my woodworking were more dependent on the types of
tools your products help to calibrate, I'd almost certainly have been
a customer years ago.

I truly hope the current (and inevitable future) fooferaw over the
evolution of the Internet doesn't cause you personal discomfort. It's
an ever-changing world; and the one constant seems to be that we all
need to keep in mind is that it's important to contribute /something/
to the general welfare. IMO, you're not only doing that; you're also
making it easier for others to do the same.

I like your shop :-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

wrote:
Joe Gorman wrote:
Dave Bugg wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
I merely offered my opinion on your value to the group, relative
to Ed Bennett's.
Not mention that Ed has a Cabal card...
Shhh.....there is NO Cabal.


Does that mean I get to eat the brownies I made to bribe my way in with?
Joe

How long ago did you bake them? I thought membership was closed many
years ago.

Now, where did I put that darn card...

Ed

I stored them in my Portable Time Warp, just in case the invitation was
lost in the mail.
Joe
checking seals on PTM

Joe Gorman wrote:

Does that mean I get to eat the brownies I made to bribe my way in with?
Joe

Never speak of the brownies!

Or the Cool-Aid....

I wouldn't have bothered to respond to this thread if I was worried
about the reponses I got. I really did expect it and I really don't
care what those who responded think. I'm more entertained by it than
anything.

I never said I could achive the same thing that ed does with a stick.
I would have gladly enlighted some of you before but understanding the
true profiteer nature that many of you have, I don't see a purpose in
giving you something else to sell. I can tell you that I get much
better accuracy with a system I put together with a cheap laser, prisms
that I swap in/out and an FPGA to calculate distance. Dial indicators
are mechanical and have flex in them. The only shortcoming of my
approach is atmospheric conditions which only come into play under
extreme circumstances.

Since I've made so many friends here lately, I thought I'd pay some of
them a visit. I wonder who I should visit first?

My buddy at 841 N Kentucky Ave?? Maybe the one at 3272 W 42nd St?
Maybe Lee in NYC? Or maybe I should just head on over to 5220 N Sawyer
Ave where Ed and I could debate the utility of our measurement tools.

In article . com, " wrote:
I wouldn't have bothered to respond to this thread if I was worried
about the reponses I got. I really did expect it and I really don't
care what those who responded think. I'm more entertained by it than
anything.

Uh-huh.

I never said I could achive the same thing that ed does with a stick.

Not exactly. But you *did* say "I achieve the same thing at a much lower
cost anyway."

I would have gladly enlighted some of you before but understanding the
true profiteer nature that many of you have, I don't see a purpose in
giving you something else to sell.

chuckle

I can tell you that I get much
better accuracy

Even accepting that claim as true -- which I don't -- it's still pointless.
The accuracy and repeatability of the TS-Aligner already exceed that of any
commonly available woodworking equipment. Greater accuracy is of no benefit.

with a system I put together with a cheap laser, prisms
that I swap in/out

I bet *that's* convenient.

and an FPGA to calculate distance.

Still cheaper than the TS-Aligner, huh? I doubt it, somehow.

Dial indicators
are mechanical and have flex in them.

I'm sure some of the machinists here will have a comment or two on that one.
g

The only shortcoming of my
approach is atmospheric conditions which only come into play under
extreme circumstances.

ROTFLMAO!! You've devised a system that's (a) cheaper than the TS-Aligner, and
(b) is so precise that its accuracy can be affected by atmospheric conditions.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Since I've made so many friends here lately, I thought I'd pay some of
them a visit. I wonder who I should visit first?

My buddy at 841 N Kentucky Ave?? Maybe the one at 3272 W 42nd St?

Oooohhhhhh... you can do a whois lookup to find publicly available
information. Wow. I'm so impressed.

Come on over. You're welcome any time. Bring your magical alignment system
along, and we'll compare it to the TS-Aligner Junior in my shop.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Hmmmm.....

I do have some familiarity with laser interferometers (used them at IBM
and HP) and other optical measurement instruments (I have a fully
equipped autocollimator in my Metrology lab). So I hope you understand
exactly why I firmly believe that your statement contains a fair amount
of bovine fecal matter. Many people who don't understand what you are
talking about might not be able to discern the facts but I actually
can. Just saying that you do this automatically puts you in the camp
of people who don't understand what you are talking about. Especially
if you think that the alignment of woodworking machinery is influenced
by the mechanical "flex" in dial indicators or atmospheric turbulence
disrupting the stability of your interferometer.

There is nothing to "debate" here about the "utility" of your solution.
This is not "the same thing" and it is definitely not "much lower
cost". You are not going to use such a setup to align table saws, set
jointer knives or tram drill press tables. It won't measure blade tilt
or miter gauge angles. And, such a setup can never sell for less than
$200 (except for those who use the five finger discount at the midnight
super sale). The closest thing I've ever seen was a 20 year old HP
setup on Ebay and it went for an order of magnitude more than a
TS-Aligner Jr. (still kicking myself for letting that one go!).

By the way I'm not a big fan of veiled threats. So, if you do decide
to visit I will be happy to arrange free accommodations including
meals. The Garden City Police Department is about two blocks away.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

wrote:
I wouldn't have bothered to respond to this thread if I was worried
about the reponses I got. I really did expect it and I really don't
care what those who responded think. I'm more entertained by it than
anything.

I never said I could achive the same thing that ed does with a stick.
I would have gladly enlighted some of you before but understanding the
true profiteer nature that many of you have, I don't see a purpose in
giving you something else to sell. I can tell you that I get much
better accuracy with a system I put together with a cheap laser, prisms
that I swap in/out and an FPGA to calculate distance. Dial indicators
are mechanical and have flex in them. The only shortcoming of my
approach is atmospheric conditions which only come into play under
extreme circumstances.

Since I've made so many friends here lately, I thought I'd pay some of
them a visit. I wonder who I should visit first?

My buddy at 841 N Kentucky Ave?? Maybe the one at 3272 W 42nd St?
Maybe Lee in NYC? Or maybe I should just head on over to 5220 N Sawyer
Ave where Ed and I could debate the utility of our measurement tools.

In article . com, wrote:

By the way I'm not a big fan of veiled threats. So, if you do decide
to visit I will be happy to arrange free accommodations including
meals. The Garden City Police Department is about two blocks away.

Ed -- please have a look at my post titled "Strange phone call this morning".

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 14:07:47 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

...

Come on over. You're welcome any time. Bring your magical alignment system
along, and we'll compare it to the TS-Aligner Junior in my shop.

Ya know, Doug, I'm beginning to regret my prior voice of moderation.

A Google search finds only one occurrence of Mr/Ms "notmenotnow"
anywhere, in any group. That may not be accurate since that's the
first time I've used Google for that purpose. But, in light of that
and the tone of some recent posts, I'm seriously thinking "sockpuppet"
or, to paraphrase the elusive "notmenotnow":

"WTF is this???????? Sounds - Looks - Walks, like TROLL!"