My wife and I recently found the home of our dreams. It's a new
construction and the owners are also the builders (it was to be their
retirement home, but they are now building a better place for
themselves elsewhere).

After looking at the house for the 2nd time, and after asking some
questions of the seller's agent, we were very close to deciding on
whether or not we should proceed, when the seller's agent calls us and
tells us that he had just received an outside offer and was wondering
if we'd like to make a competing offer with him representing us as
buyers. Feeling extremely rushed, yet realizing that this was most
likely our only chance at getting the home, we decided to say yes.

He tells me that the only way we have a shot at getting the house is
to make a full price non-contingent offer. I questioned him about
this since he knew FULL WELL that our current house was not even
listed, and we needed to sell it before making a down payment on a
loan. He replied that this sort of thing is done all the time and is
fairly standard. Now I fully take the blame for being ignorant at the
time of what "contingent" really means, but I trusted his judgment and
assumed he was doing the best thing for both us and the sellers he
also represented. My wife also trusted that this was the right thing
to do. You should also know that we are currently living in our 1st
home, and therefore have never sold a home before. We both assumed
(wrongly as it turns out) that "non-contingent" simply meant that the
seller would know that the financing is contingent but that we were
CONFIDENT that our house would sell before closing on the new house.

To cut to the chase, the sellers turned down the other offer and
accepted our offer instead. Hooray! ...or so we thought. Our house
went on the market, and everything seemed great UNTIL a few days later
the sellers (who are EXCELLENT people and we get along with them very
well) called us directly to tell us that the agent had basically lied
when he presented them with our non-contingent offer. Which of
course, as it turns out is absolutely true - our house has not sold,
and our financing depends on the proceeds. So I completely understand
why the sellers were furious with the agent. We explained how he
convinced us that a non-contingent offer was the only way to go, and
the seller agreed that we were not to blame. The agent claims he did
nothing illegal, which is probably true since it was my wife and I who
signed the offer as "non-contingent" - regardless of whether we did so
purely on his advice. But it doesn't change the fact that both buyer
and seller were misled in different ways. The WORST part of it is
that he (and his boss) later claimed in a conversation with the seller
that it was WE (my wife and I) who conceived of and initiated the
non-contingent offer. This attempt to make us look bad in the sellers
eyes only serves to confirm the agency's desperation and lack of
morals. In our opinion, of course...

Because of these breaches of trust, we are now seriously considering
using a different agent, and the seller is desperately trying to
figure out how to get out of using this agent. Fortunately, they
still very much want us to buy the home. Possibilities for them are
continue using the agent (unappealing), find a different agent within
the same real estate company, or (possibly) use our inspection
contingency as a way out of the deal, then write up a new offer using
a different agency altogether (not sure how that would work).

Trust is, or SHOULD be, everything in this type of transaction. I'm
still shocked at the mess this has become out of such a seemingly
simple, yet entirely selfish breach of ethics by this agent - who was
obviously trying to get a bigger slice of the pie by representing as
many people as possible.

I'd love to hear any similar stories, advice, or views from real
estate veterans.

On 23 Dec 2003 19:13:02 -0800, (Tim Ebling) wrote:

Trust is, or SHOULD be, everything in this type of transaction.

I hope you don't buy this or any other house without FIRST retaining an
attorney. Your statement above best illustrates your lack of
understanding of real estate transactions. You need the professional
protection you will get by retaining council. Otherwise you will continue
to be easy pickings by a fast talking salesperson.

Tim Ebling wrote:

find a different agent within
the same real estate company,

What does the manager of this agent say? What does the corporate office
say? Complain LOUDY and often to these people. Make a big fuss. Are
agents licensed where you are at? If so, contact the licensing agency.

"Tim Ebling" wrote in message
om...
My wife and I recently found the home of our dreams. It's a new
construction and the owners are also the builders (it was to be their
retirement home, but they are now building a better place for
themselves elsewhere).


Whenever entering any contract to buy or sell a house or even leaving a
deposit, always include the statement "Subject to my attorney's approval".
This will allow you to back out should the attorney find something in the
contract or agreement that could hurt you.

On 23 Dec 2003 19:13:02 -0800, (Tim Ebling) wrote:


After looking at the house for the 2nd time, and after asking some
questions of the seller's agent, we were very close to deciding on
whether or not we should proceed, when the seller's agent calls us and
tells us that he had just received an outside offer and was wondering
if we'd like to make a competing offer with him representing us as
buyers. Feeling extremely rushed, yet realizing that this was most
likely our only chance at getting the home, we decided to say yes.


This is your first mistake. I know it's hard to keep your emotions
out of it but this signaled to the agent that you were game for his
antics.


He tells me that the only way we have a shot at getting the house is
to make a full price non-contingent offer. I questioned him about
this since he knew FULL WELL that our current house was not even
listed, and we needed to sell it before making a down payment on a
loan. He replied that this sort of thing is done all the time and is
fairly standard. Now I fully take the blame for being ignorant at the
time of what "contingent" really means, but I trusted his judgment and
assumed he was doing the best thing for both us and the sellers he
also represented. My wife also trusted that this was the right thing
to do. You should also know that we are currently living in our 1st
home, and therefore have never sold a home before. We both assumed
(wrongly as it turns out) that "non-contingent" simply meant that the
seller would know that the financing is contingent but that we were
CONFIDENT that our house would sell before closing on the new house.


Oh boy.... your lack of real estate knowledge or lack of the english
language (if English isn't your primary language) really got you into
a mess. I hope the sellers don't sue you for non-perfomance since you
can't comply to the terms you signed to. My guess is they won't for a
couple of reasons.

I agree with you that the sellers must be excellent people because if
I were them and you signed a contract that read "non-contigent" when
you really didn't have the means to comply with it's terms would make
me "mad" with you. I also agree with others that maybe an attorney on
your side might be good advice.

If this transaction is still viable (contingent or non-contigent),
I'd make sure you don't deal directly with that agent either by having
your own agent or own "REAL ESTATE" attorney. Also please do yourself
a BIG favor and read about real estate terms and general practices
from a book in the meantime. It will help you to ask the RIGHT
questions to achieve your goals.

And yes, I've own / owned / carried paper on many homes and hold a
real estate brokers license. Currently I'm not in practice but I was
formerly.

Sorry if I sound like I came on strong here but I am surprised how
people put so much trust in someone who they don't really know and
involve so much money they can't afford to lose. I wish you luck and
success however it turns out.

(Tim Ebling) wrote in message . com...
My wife and I recently found the home of our dreams. It's a new
construction and the owners are also the builders (it was to be their
retirement home, but they are now building a better place for
themselves elsewhere).

After looking at the house for the 2nd time, and after asking some
questions of the seller's agent, we were very close to deciding on
whether or not we should proceed, when the seller's agent calls us and
tells us that he had just received an outside offer and was wondering
if we'd like to make a competing offer with him representing us as
buyers. Feeling extremely rushed, yet realizing that this was most
likely our only chance at getting the home, we decided to say yes.

He tells me that the only way we have a shot at getting the house is
to make a full price non-contingent offer.


Ack, sorry to hear this happened to you. When I was in the market I
ran up against a couple of situations like this and learned fast. Call
me cynical, but I would bet the seller's agent was trying to bid up
the property. Perhaps he/she was going to use your offer to have more
leverage to bring up the first offer. My first offer experience was
somewhat similar. I was told by my agent that the house had three
other offers. I felt rushed through the whole thing. She drew up an
offer from me that was higher than the asking and had a lot of clauses
that were not in my best interest. She really played on my fears and
doubts, and unfortunately I didn't know any better. Oh well, live and
learn.

Turned out upon inspection that the property had major structural
damage, so I did have an out. When I went to walk, the agent came back
and told me that the buyer was desparate and would take any offer at
all ... including an offer some $100K below asking!!! That sent alarm
bells off for me. What about those other three offers??? I somehow
think they never existed, or they were all much much lower.

I later got smart and developed my own spreadsheet to track and
calculate average selling prices by zip code and square footage, so I
could be very sure next time I was making an offer that was
reasonable. Turned out that this first property, when I plugged it
into my worksheet, was probably worth about $150,000 less than asking
- and that's not even taking into account the structural damage!! If I
had ended up with that house, I would have grossly overpaid. Thank
goodness I didn't.

From the benefit of my hard-won experience, my advice is as follows:

Rule #1: when you are a buyer, you may have an agent but don't *ever*
think that agent is acting in your interests. They are not; they are
incented to get the best possible price for the house, so they can
make their commission. Reveal nothing to them. Don't trust them as far
as you can throw them (although of course be polite). Don't rely on
their expert opinion of market value - do your own homework. This
includes so called "buyer's agents."

Rule #2: Don't even think about making an offer unless you have a real
estate attorney involved from the get-go. My attorney, whom I hired
*after* that first offer and before the inspection, advised me not to
use the agent's standard form from now on. He gave me a different one
to use instead. After my first mistake, I had him review it thoroughly
before I handed my offer to the seller (I went through yet one more
offer that fell through after inspection before finally finding the
house I own today). DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP. Being a first-time,
inexperienced, and generally trusting person, my attorney was a
godsend. He gave me the best advice, and I appreciated having one
person that I could trust throughout the process. He was worth every
darn penny. Do not skimp on this expense.

Rule #3: No matter how many offers a house supposedly has, bid what
you think the house is worth, and no more. If your offer is rejected,
then oh well, consider the seller lucky to have found a sucker, and
you lucky that you didn't get swept up in the emotion and end up sorry
that you overpaid.

Rule #4, courtesy of my dear SIL who I'd phone with my sob story every
time another house fell through: Everything happens for a reason. Yes,
this may have seemed like your dream house, but there are plenty of
dream houses out there. Take your time and the right property at the
right price under the right terms will inevitably come along. While it
did take me 9 long months, dear SIL was right. I ended up in a house
that is twice as large as the first house I put an offer on, newly
renovated, beautiful detail, and by my spreadsheet calculations I got
a great value for my money. Patience pays off.


My wife also trusted that this was the right thing
to do.

Right thing for the seller or the agent is not necessarily the right
thing for you.

You should also know that we are currently living in our 1st
home, and therefore have never sold a home before. We both assumed
(wrongly as it turns out) that "non-contingent" simply meant that the
seller would know that the financing is contingent but that we were
CONFIDENT that our house would sell before closing on the new house.

This is why you need a good attorney on your side. My attorney was
very patient and explained what every last term meant, and its full
implication. Do not wait until you've found another dream house to
enlist an attorney's help!!


To cut to the chase, the sellers turned down the other offer and
accepted our offer instead. Hooray! ...or so we thought. Our house
went on the market, and everything seemed great UNTIL a few days later
the sellers (who are EXCELLENT people and we get along with them very
well)


I don't care how excellent they are, you really shouldn't be talking
to them at this stage of the game. Sounds like you need someone to
trust, and I completely understand that need. You need an ATTORNEY.


Because of these breaches of trust, we are now seriously considering
using a different agent, and the seller is desperately trying to
figure out how to get out of using this agent.

Honestly? I don't think you can. I think you are stuck. Read your
agent's contract carefully. Consult an attorney. If at this point you
still really want this house, the agent is going to get that
commission, and is legally entitled to it (it has nothing to do with
morality here). Yeah, I understand that thought not sitting right in
your mind, but that's the breaks. If the house is really worth it, I'd
get over it.


Fortunately, they
still very much want us to buy the home. Possibilities for them are
continue using the agent (unappealing), find a different agent within
the same real estate company, or (possibly) use our inspection
contingency as a way out of the deal, then write up a new offer using
a different agency altogether (not sure how that would work).

Talk to an attorny, but I suspect there is no way to avoid the agent
getting the commission on this particular house.

Trust is, or SHOULD be, everything in this type of transaction.

Well you've learned that the only person you can trust is an attorney.
Get yourself one, pronto!

jen

(shinypenny) writes:
Rule #1: when you are a buyer, you may have an agent but don't *ever*
think that agent is acting in your interests. They are not; they are
incented to get the best possible price for the house, so they can
make their commission.

This is a rather cynical attitude. I'm quite sure that it is
not universally true.

Yes, there are many disreputable agents out there. Yes,
there are many agents out there who are only out to make
their commission and will thus do whatever they can to make
you pay more for the house.

On the other hand, there are many agents who understand that
they're in it for the long haul, that they want your business
when you decide to move again, that they want your friends'
business when you have a good experience with them and
recommend them to others. If a reputable agent thinks the
house is overpriced, they'll tell you. If a reputable agent
thinks a house isn't right for you, they'll tell you.

There are all kinds of ways to find a reputable agent who will
deal with you honestly and help you find the house you want at
a reasonable price. Ask your friends for recommendations.
Ask the agent for references to recent buyers, and talk to the
buyers about their experiences. Ask the agent how long he/she
has been in the business and how long he/she expects to be in
the business. Check with local licensing and
consumer-advocate groups to see if there have been any
complaints lodged against the agent or his/her firm. Google
the Web and News sources for the name of the agent and his/her
firm to see if they've shown up in the news in a bad way.

Thanks to everyone for their advice! Some comments:

Lessons learned:

* Know the terms. Obviously. I am usually very informed and make it
a habit to "do the research". This time I was rushed and didn't have
the know-how to avoid the "trap" the agent set.

* Be patient. Of course, had we resisted the temptation to make an
offer on the spot this probably wouldn't have happened.

* Get an attorney. Overwhelmingly you guys supported this. We will
begin to make inquiries immediately. Best piece of advice gleaned
from the responses.

A few replies suggested that my wife and I were completely at fault,
and I take great offense at that. This could have happened to anyone,
and while we of course made some mistakes, this NEVER would have
happened had the agent been a conscientious and honest person.

It's unfortunate to have to assume the worst in people rather than the
best.

(Tim Ebling) wrote:

A few replies suggested that my wife and I were completely at fault,
and I take great offense at that.

As well you should. Part of an agent's job is to earn the trust of
his or her clients and when one takes advantage of that it is a
violation of that trust.

I've had my own problems with real estate agents, not as bad as yours
but enough that the last time I moved I sold my home without an agent
and both I and the buyer saved thousands of dollars in the process.
While it is true that most agents are honest people, there seems to be
little effort on the part of the profession as a whole aimed at
weeding the bad ones out so like you, I now assume they are crooked
until they prove to me otherwise. It shouldn't be that way but it is,
and they have themselves to blame. "For Sale By Owner" is becoming a
more commonly seen sign nowadays, and with good reason.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:58:31 -0600, someone wrote:


What does the manager of this agent say? What does the corporate office
say? Complain LOUDY and often to these people. Make a big fuss. Are
agents licensed where you are at? If so, contact the licensing agency.

With what, that they signed a non-contingent offer and now regret it?

-v.

In article ,
Jerry L wrote:

Whenever entering any contract to buy or sell a house or even leaving a
deposit, always include the statement "Subject to my attorney's approval".
This will allow you to back out should the attorney find something in the
contract or agreement that could hurt you.


Sure, and it also means the other party has a right to reject the offer
based on that statement in favor of an offer (or buyer) who has no such
contingency.


Dimitri

First of all the listing and selling agent work for the sellers. They don't
work for you or have your interests at heart. Secondly, Real Estate is not a
"simple process" it never is. Rule of thumb if you don't know what your
signing and your not real estate versed don't sign it. Run to an attorney
for a contract review. It would have cost no more than $200.00 for the
attorney to review the contract and tell you what your rights and what the
pitfalls were in store for you. You say this is the first house you sold.
I'll bet you had a lawyer when you bought your house. Also, you must have
told the agent that you had to sell your house, so if the agent failed to
mention it to the sellers, the sellers can file a claim against the broker
and agent for misreprsentation. You then can get out of the contract. In
real estate don't be penny foolish and dollar wise, when it comes to a major
investment.
"Tim Ebling" wrote in message
om...
My wife and I recently found the home of our dreams. It's a new
construction and the owners are also the builders (it was to be their
retirement home, but they are now building a better place for
themselves elsewhere).

After looking at the house for the 2nd time, and after asking some
questions of the seller's agent, we were very close to deciding on
whether or not we should proceed, when the seller's agent calls us and
tells us that he had just received an outside offer and was wondering
if we'd like to make a competing offer with him representing us as
buyers. Feeling extremely rushed, yet realizing that this was most
likely our only chance at getting the home, we decided to say yes.

He tells me that the only way we have a shot at getting the house is
to make a full price non-contingent offer. I questioned him about
this since he knew FULL WELL that our current house was not even
listed, and we needed to sell it before making a down payment on a
loan. He replied that this sort of thing is done all the time and is
fairly standard. Now I fully take the blame for being ignorant at the
time of what "contingent" really means, but I trusted his judgment and
assumed he was doing the best thing for both us and the sellers he
also represented. My wife also trusted that this was the right thing
to do. You should also know that we are currently living in our 1st
home, and therefore have never sold a home before. We both assumed
(wrongly as it turns out) that "non-contingent" simply meant that the
seller would know that the financing is contingent but that we were
CONFIDENT that our house would sell before closing on the new house.

To cut to the chase, the sellers turned down the other offer and
accepted our offer instead. Hooray! ...or so we thought. Our house
went on the market, and everything seemed great UNTIL a few days later
the sellers (who are EXCELLENT people and we get along with them very
well) called us directly to tell us that the agent had basically lied
when he presented them with our non-contingent offer. Which of
course, as it turns out is absolutely true - our house has not sold,
and our financing depends on the proceeds. So I completely understand
why the sellers were furious with the agent. We explained how he
convinced us that a non-contingent offer was the only way to go, and
the seller agreed that we were not to blame. The agent claims he did
nothing illegal, which is probably true since it was my wife and I who
signed the offer as "non-contingent" - regardless of whether we did so
purely on his advice. But it doesn't change the fact that both buyer
and seller were misled in different ways. The WORST part of it is
that he (and his boss) later claimed in a conversation with the seller
that it was WE (my wife and I) who conceived of and initiated the
non-contingent offer. This attempt to make us look bad in the sellers
eyes only serves to confirm the agency's desperation and lack of
morals. In our opinion, of course...

Because of these breaches of trust, we are now seriously considering
using a different agent, and the seller is desperately trying to
figure out how to get out of using this agent. Fortunately, they
still very much want us to buy the home. Possibilities for them are
continue using the agent (unappealing), find a different agent within
the same real estate company, or (possibly) use our inspection
contingency as a way out of the deal, then write up a new offer using
a different agency altogether (not sure how that would work).

Trust is, or SHOULD be, everything in this type of transaction. I'm
still shocked at the mess this has become out of such a seemingly
simple, yet entirely selfish breach of ethics by this agent - who was
obviously trying to get a bigger slice of the pie by representing as
many people as possible.

I'd love to hear any similar stories, advice, or views from real
estate veterans.

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jerry L wrote:

Whenever entering any contract to buy or sell a house or even leaving a
deposit, always include the statement "Subject to my attorney's
approval".
This will allow you to back out should the attorney find something in the
contract or agreement that could hurt you.


Sure, and it also means the other party has a right to reject the offer
based on that statement in favor of an offer (or buyer) who has no such
contingency.


Dimitri

That's the chance you take when you want to play it safe. Better safe than
sorry. Anyway, when you sign the binder 'Subject to Attorney's Approval',
you get your attorney to look at it within a day or so and if he approves,
you set up a contract.
I'd rather lose a deal on a house than make a very big mistake that's going
to cost me or hurt me.

In article ,
Jerry L wrote:

That's the chance you take when you want to play it safe. Better safe than
sorry. Anyway, when you sign the binder 'Subject to Attorney's Approval',
you get your attorney to look at it within a day or so and if he approves,
you set up a contract.
I'd rather lose a deal on a house than make a very big mistake that's going
to cost me or hurt me.


As long as one is aware that there are associated costs with being "safe".


Dimitri

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jerry L wrote:

That's the chance you take when you want to play it safe. Better safe
than
sorry. Anyway, when you sign the binder 'Subject to Attorney's Approval',
you get your attorney to look at it within a day or so and if he
approves,
you set up a contract.
I'd rather lose a deal on a house than make a very big mistake that's
going
to cost me or hurt me.


As long as one is aware that there are associated costs with being "safe".


Dimitri

The associated costs are much cheaper than losing a big deposit or binder.

(Jonathan Kamens) wrote in message ...
(shinypenny) writes:
Rule #1: when you are a buyer, you may have an agent but don't *ever*
think that agent is acting in your interests. They are not; they are
incented to get the best possible price for the house, so they can
make their commission.

This is a rather cynical attitude. I'm quite sure that it is
not universally true.

Okay - what I should've said was "both the buyer's and seller's agent
represent the *seller* -- that's who pays their commission."

Yes, there are many disreputable agents out there. Yes,
there are many agents out there who are only out to make
their commission and will thus do whatever they can to make
you pay more for the house.

On the other hand, there are many agents who understand that
they're in it for the long haul, that they want your business
when you decide to move again,

Actually, if I ever decided to move, I *would* hire the wench of an
agent that almost screwed me on the first offer. I am absolutely
confident she'd sell her soul to get me (and her) the best possible
price. That's exactly the type of person you want selling your house!!

that they want your friends'
business when you have a good experience with them and
recommend them to others. If a reputable agent thinks the
house is overpriced, they'll tell you. If a reputable agent
thinks a house isn't right for you, they'll tell you.

There are all kinds of ways to find a reputable agent who will
deal with you honestly and help you find the house you want at
a reasonable price.

The second agent I worked with was very good, and honest. I was still
careful what I shared with him, and watched my back. But all in all,
he was a decent sort and I would recommend him to my friends who want
to buy (incidentally, I found him through ziprealty.com, which I would
also recommend). Unfortunately, the seller's agent on this deal
screwed him somehow. I don't know the details (he was tactful enough
not to whine about it to me), but I do know that he ended up suing the
seller's agent.

Ask your friends for recommendations.
Ask the agent for references to recent buyers, and talk to the
buyers about their experiences. Ask the agent how long he/she
has been in the business and how long he/she expects to be in
the business. Check with local licensing and
consumer-advocate groups to see if there have been any
complaints lodged against the agent or his/her firm. Google
the Web and News sources for the name of the agent and his/her
firm to see if they've shown up in the news in a bad way.

All good advice.

jen

That's the chance you take when you want to play it safe. Better safe than
sorry. Anyway, when you sign the binder 'Subject to Attorney's Approval',
you get your attorney to look at it within a day or so and if he approves,
you set up a contract.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I am under the impression that there is a federal
law that allows either party to any real-estate contract to cancel the
contract within three days of signing for any reason.

"2nd Chance" wrote in message
...
On 23 Dec 2003 19:13:02 -0800, (Tim Ebling) wrote:

Trust is, or SHOULD be, everything in this type of transaction.

I hope you don't buy this or any other house without FIRST retaining an
attorney.

until your lawyer screws with you, as is my case.......

"Andrew Koenig" wrote in message
...
That's the chance you take when you want to play it safe. Better safe
than
sorry. Anyway, when you sign the binder 'Subject to Attorney's
Approval',
you get your attorney to look at it within a day or so and if he
approves,
you set up a contract.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I am under the impression that there is a federal
law that allows either party to any real-estate contract to cancel the
contract within three days of signing for any reason.


The federal law applies to sales that are unsolicited by you. If you
initiate the purchase, it does not apply, except in several rare cases.

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 06:22:33 GMT, "Andrew Koenig" wrote:

That's the chance you take when you want to play it safe. Better safe than
sorry. Anyway, when you sign the binder 'Subject to Attorney's Approval',
you get your attorney to look at it within a day or so and if he approves,
you set up a contract.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I am under the impression that there is a federal
law that allows either party to any real-estate contract to cancel the
contract within three days of signing for any reason.


I hold a real estate license and I never heard of it applying in real
estate. I have heard of it tho. I need to refresh my memory when
this law kicks in.