"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 00:18:05 -0500, "Upscale"
wrote:

"Leon" wrote in message
I would rather the saw falsely trip 30 times and correctly on the 31st
time than not trip at all.

Ahh, but that could never happen. If your saw tripped falsely 30 times,
you'd have hung yourself long before then.

You'd probably have sold the saw by then since you couldn't afford to
keep replacing the blade and stop. You know that, even assuming the
blade and stop only cost $250 total to replace, you could buy almost
*4* whole new tablesaws?

You could make your shop look like Norm's for that!

Well lets see here. WWII on sale $100. New Cartridge IIRC $80. $180 x 30
= $5400. You cannot buy 2 new SawStop cabinet saws for that. Screw the new
saw. You cannot replace a finger for that.
I guess it has a lot to do with what your priorities are.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message

It isn't all that hard to keep your finger away from the spinning
knives of death if you think about what you're doing and you use the
standard safety equipment. How much do you want to bet that most of
the woodworkers who have lost fingers were working without a blade
guard?

Honestly, I think you're being a little short-sighted. I certainly don't
agree with Sawstop trying to get its technology mandated, but I can easily
see it's value. There's always going to be the unknown that suddenly
appears
to bite you in the ass. The Sawstop to me is the same as a seatbelt in a
car. It's there *if* something unforeseen happens. Nobody, or at least
very
few people I know go out driving to be unsafe, yet accidents happen.

As to my opinion on seatbelts for cars, I have a picture that is
categorical
evidence that seat belts saves lives ~ my life in this instance.


When was the last time somebody lost their finger in a saw accident due to
somebody running into them? I'm sure it's happened (and I'd be really
****ed if somebody did that to me...) but (IMO) the ratio of serious car
accidents to saw accidents has got to be a very large number. If I cut my
finger on a saw, most likely it's my fault, not the fault of somebody else.
If I'm in a car accident it will probably involve somebody else and won't
necessarily be my fault. This is where mandatory safety devices should come
into play.

Glad your still with us.

Gary

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...

And most of them, if you talk to them, were careless when they had
their accident.

I'd say 99.99% of the accidents were from carelessness. Personally I know
of no one that is 100% careful and not careless at some time until they die.
It only has to happen once at the right time.
Again, I ask, have you ever cut yourself with a knife?

It's up to people to be careful and know when a
particular cut is safe and when it is not. If the cut is not safe,
one should not make it regardless of the safety equipment you have on
your saw.

That has a little to do with it but I cut half my thumb off after the cut,
after walking away from the saw to lay the board down, and after turning the
saw off. You really don't know of all the possibilities nor can you be
prepared for them 100% of the time. In my case, the SawStop would have
prevented my injury.


It certainly is not necessary but if you can afford it, it's well worth
consideration.

I never said it couldn't be useful, I just said it was more costly
than it was worth IMO.

Well hopefully you will never need to test your opinion.

On the other side, having something like that
could give someone a false sense of security and lead to taking more
risks than they would otherwise.

Like putting a LOADED gun up to your head and pulling the trigger because
you know the safety is on. Like crashing your vehicle into a concrete wall
because you know that it has air bags. I really do not think that some one
would be careless around a blade spinning at 3500 rpm. The visual would be
enough to scare you.


Well in your own words, A woodworker exercising reasonable caution has
nothing to fear from the tablesaw. With proper caution a kick back is not
going to harm you either.

That's why most saws come with a splitter as standard equipment, it
prevents kickback. Without a splitter, it is difficult, if not
impossible on some cuts, to keep the kerf from closing on the far side
of the blade.


No, a splitter can help prevent a kick back but is absolutely no guarantee.
If the splitter prevents a kick back and you realize it, its a good chance
that you made a mistake.
Still the riving knife is far superior to the splitter. It does not have to
be removed for many cuts that would require the removal of the splitter.
While the riving knife is no guarantee against kick back either, it can be
used in more instances than a standard splitter and it typically works
better because of its proximity to the blade.


It isn't all that hard to keep your finger away from the spinning
knives of death if you think about what you're doing and you use the
standard safety equipment.

Not hard to do at all. But every one on this group, actually everyone is
capable of making a mistake at any time.

How much do you want to bet that most of
the woodworkers who have lost fingers were working without a blade
guard?

Do you use a standard blade guard when cutting dado's?

Good luck Brian and don't take this the wrong way but you seem to be a
little naive as to how many different ways an accident can happen given the
numerous operations that can be performed on a TS. While it is totally your
decision and opinion that you are personally careful enough to deem the Saw
Stop not worth the money you have pointed out to me more than a couple of
instances where you are absolutely wrong. Again, be careful.

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...


Sorry, there's a reason there is safety equipment. The above is like
saying you don't need to use the saw guard or the splitter or push
sticks, your finger fits between the fence and the blade... sort of...

The safety equipment we have now works just fine, we don't need
another piece of mandatory, expensive equipment, that isn't
demonstrated to be any better than what we have, any more than I'm
sure rollerbladers would be terribly happy to be told they have to
wear full-body baloon-suits, just in case.

I bet a bunch of people said that then the common POS guard, that comes on
almost every saw, was mandated also.
Perhaps you do not see the need for more safety equipment but enough people
did to warrant SawStop making the commitment to see this through.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 23:43:35 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

Well lets see here. WWII on sale $100. New Cartridge IIRC $80. $180 x 30
= $5400. You cannot buy 2 new SawStop cabinet saws for that. Screw the new
saw. You cannot replace a finger for that.
I guess it has a lot to do with what your priorities are.


Out of curiosity, Leon, a few weeks ago you were speaking highly of
Powermatic's new table saw, which lacks this safety feature. Have you
changed your mind?


--
Chuck Taylor
http://home.hiwaay.net/~taylorc/contact/

On 3/2/2006 6:37 PM Upscale mumbled something about the following:
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
It isn't all that hard to keep your finger away from the spinning
knives of death if you think about what you're doing and you use the
standard safety equipment. How much do you want to bet that most of
the woodworkers who have lost fingers were working without a blade
guard?

Honestly, I think you're being a little short-sighted. I certainly don't
agree with Sawstop trying to get its technology mandated, but I can easily
see it's value. There's always going to be the unknown that suddenly appears
to bite you in the ass. The Sawstop to me is the same as a seatbelt in a
car. It's there *if* something unforeseen happens. Nobody, or at least very
few people I know go out driving to be unsafe, yet accidents happen.

As to my opinion on seatbelts for cars, I have a picture that is categorical
evidence that seat belts saves lives ~ my life in this instance.



Personally, I think seatbelts should be removed, and the driver's seat
be placed in front of the front bumper of the car and a spike placed in
the center of the steering wheel. Might get drivers to actually pay
attention to what they are doing instead of pretending they are driving
in the Daytona 500.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

"Chuck Taylor" wrote in message
...


Out of curiosity, Leon, a few weeks ago you were speaking highly of
Powermatic's new table saw, which lacks this safety feature. Have you
changed your mind?


No not at all. There are several great products out there on the market.
Each has it strong points and each deserves a fair shake in the area that it
may excel. Unlike the SawStop the Powermatic 2000 does not have the blade
stop technology however it unlike many originally American branded saws does
have a riving knife like the SawStop. Sooo this may be a first step of the
competition taking a second look at SawStops lead with a saw with more
safety features.
With that said, I am absolutely not saying that the SawStop is the do all
beat all final word in table saws. I do however think that if the SawStop
is not your cup of tea to not bash the product and technology because of
what you may or may not think of the company that is marketing it.

"Odinn" wrote in message
...


Personally, I think seatbelts should be removed, and the driver's seat be
placed in front of the front bumper of the car and a spike placed in the
center of the steering wheel. Might get drivers to actually pay attention
to what they are doing instead of pretending they are driving in the
Daytona 500.


There is a thought and while some what absurd, absolutely not as absurd as
the people you are talking about.

In article , Leon
wrote:

I do however think that if the SawStop
is not your cup of tea to not bash the product and technology because of
what you may or may not think of the company that is marketing it.

I've seen people bash the company marketing it, but not the product and
technology. The only negative comment I've seen on the product is that
it's over-priced, which in all fairness is true.

The company marketing it, OTOH, deserves what bashing they get, IMO.

--
Talking about art is like dancing about architecture - Frank Zappa

"GeeDubb" wrote in message
When was the last time somebody lost their finger in a saw accident due to
somebody running into them? I'm sure it's happened (and I'd be really
****ed if somebody did that to me...)

Strange how much you missed the point of my message. The point is that
accidents can happen no matter how safely you conduct yourself, in any
venue. I'm not going to google the subject, but I wonder how many thousands
of people in the US alone have missing fingers solely due to tablesaws.

"Odinn" wrote in message

Personally, I think seatbelts should be removed, and the driver's seat
be placed in front of the front bumper of the car and a spike placed in
the center of the steering wheel. Might get drivers to actually pay
attention to what they are doing instead of pretending they are driving
in the Daytona 500.

Brings to mind a television show that's been playing on the discovery
channel, called Canada's Worst Driver. Some of these people are *so* bad at
driving that I think the testing agent at the driving centre who passed
them, should be strung up by their short hairs.
http://www.discoverychannel.ca/worstdriver/

On 3/2/2006 10:38 PM Leon mumbled something about the following:
"Odinn" wrote in message
...
Personally, I think seatbelts should be removed, and the driver's seat be
placed in front of the front bumper of the car and a spike placed in the
center of the steering wheel. Might get drivers to actually pay attention
to what they are doing instead of pretending they are driving in the
Daytona 500.


There is a thought and while some what absurd, absolutely not as absurd as
the people you are talking about.



As a motorcycle rider who rides 40 miles each way, to/from work, there
isn't a day that goes by that some idiot in a cage doesn't try to take
me out, either by changing lanes into me, pulling out of a side road as
I'm approaching, turning across the road in front of me, etc. 90% of
the drivers on the road are busy doing something else, reading, dialing
their cellphone, putting on makeup, plucking their eyebrows, shaving,
etc, while driving 2 ft off the bumper of the car in front of them. A
good majority of the accidents around here are someone rear-ending
another car, and I usually hear of about 5 or 6 every morning on the
radio. The biggest offenders, SUV drivers. They think they're
invulnerable and are the most likely to rearend someone (at least by my
observations).

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

On 3/3/2006 4:07 AM Upscale mumbled something about the following:
"Odinn" wrote in message
Personally, I think seatbelts should be removed, and the driver's seat
be placed in front of the front bumper of the car and a spike placed in
the center of the steering wheel. Might get drivers to actually pay
attention to what they are doing instead of pretending they are driving
in the Daytona 500.

Brings to mind a television show that's been playing on the discovery
channel, called Canada's Worst Driver. Some of these people are *so* bad at
driving that I think the testing agent at the driving centre who passed
them, should be strung up by their short hairs.
http://www.discoverychannel.ca/worstdriver/



You should come to Hotlanta, Jawja and have a go round with the idiots
we have here. I'm pretty sure that 99% of them got their drivers
license out of a Cracker Jacks box.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

Odinn said:

On 3/2/2006 10:38 PM Leon mumbled something about the following:
"Odinn" wrote in message
...
Personally, I think seatbelts should be removed, and the driver's seat be
placed in front of the front bumper of the car and a spike placed in the
center of the steering wheel. Might get drivers to actually pay attention
to what they are doing instead of pretending they are driving in the
Daytona 500.


There is a thought and while some what absurd, absolutely not as absurd as
the people you are talking about.


As a motorcycle rider who rides 40 miles each way, to/from work, there
isn't a day that goes by that some idiot in a cage doesn't try to take
me out, either by changing lanes into me, pulling out of a side road as
I'm approaching, turning across the road in front of me, etc. 90% of
the drivers on the road are busy doing something else, reading, dialing
their cellphone, putting on makeup, plucking their eyebrows, shaving,
etc, while driving 2 ft off the bumper of the car in front of them. A
good majority of the accidents around here are someone rear-ending
another car, and I usually hear of about 5 or 6 every morning on the
radio. The biggest offenders, SUV drivers. They think they're
invulnerable and are the most likely to rearend someone (at least by my
observations).

Add another metro resident to your list of 'those who vehemently agree
with _all_ the above observations'.

Sounds like you experienced a heart-racing near miss today...

I used to ride, but after being the victim of 5 bone wrenching, high
speed rear-enders (in cars, fortunately), I gave up on the thought.
State Highway 41 was the location of 3 of them. I was forced to
conclude that bikes are a mode of transportation best reserved for
those who life a better life than I - and the track. :-\

FWIW,

Greg G.

"Leon" wrote in message
et...

Perhaps you do not see the need for more safety equipment but enough
people did to warrant SawStop making the commitment to see this through.


We have yet to see the evidence of this. Did you buy one yet Leon?

"Odinn" wrote in message
...


As a motorcycle rider who rides 40 miles each way, to/from work, there
isn't a day that goes by that some idiot in a cage doesn't try to take me
out, either by changing lanes into me, pulling out of a side road as I'm
approaching, turning across the road in front of me, etc. 90% of the
drivers on the road are busy doing something else, reading, dialing their
cellphone, putting on makeup, plucking their eyebrows, shaving, etc, while
driving 2 ft off the bumper of the car in front of them. A good majority
of the accidents around here are someone rear-ending another car, and I
usually hear of about 5 or 6 every morning on the radio. The biggest
offenders, SUV drivers. They think they're invulnerable and are the most
likely to rearend someone (at least by my observations).



I had 2 Japanese bikes and a Harley. I had less problems with the Harley I
greatly suspect because it was louder. I have had people bump into me while
setting at a stop light. Living in Houston I finally gave up riding.
Highway riding was the only safe riding.

"Frank Ketchum" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Leon" wrote in message
et...

Perhaps you do not see the need for more safety equipment but enough
people did to warrant SawStop making the commitment to see this through.


We have yet to see the evidence of this. Did you buy one yet Leon?

I think the fact that they went into production and are selling is enough
evidence. Just in this small group there have been responses from 3
different owners of the SawStop. One is getting ready to buy another, and
Robin Lee has indicated that he is replacing all the TS's in his stores with
Saw Stops.
No, I have not bought one yet. I simply think it is a great idea and if I
do ever replace my cabinet saw I will consider it. By then there may be
something better out on the market. Powermatic has a new model that I would
place between the SawStop and the other American style saws as far as added
safety features. The trend is starting to shift in that direction. If
you are going to be the only operator of the saw and have no need to
purchase a new saw I would say wait. If you are in the market for a saw I
would say strongly consider the SawStop if you can afford it.

"Leon" wrote in message
greatly suspect because it was louder. I have had people bump into me
while
setting at a stop light. Living in Houston I finally gave up riding.
Highway riding was the only safe riding.

That would/does drive me nuts. I've never driven a motorbike, but I've had
people repeatedly bump into me in my wheelchair. I'd guess riders on a bike
would feel much the same as I feel in a wheelchair, it's an extension of me.
Someone carelessly touching it is equivalent to someone touching me without
my permission. I've had people bump me twice, but never a third time because
I usually turn around with a snarl to chew the perpetrator out.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote in message
greatly suspect because it was louder. I have had people bump into me
while
setting at a stop light. Living in Houston I finally gave up riding.
Highway riding was the only safe riding.

That would/does drive me nuts. I've never driven a motorbike, but I've had
people repeatedly bump into me in my wheelchair. I'd guess riders on a
bike
would feel much the same as I feel in a wheelchair, it's an extension of
me.
Someone carelessly touching it is equivalent to someone touching me
without
my permission. I've had people bump me twice, but never a third time
because
I usually turn around with a snarl to chew the perpetrator out.

You gotta wonder what they are thinking. If they are thinking at all. Lost
in their own little worlds.

On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 18:37:55 -0500, "Upscale"
wrote:

Honestly, I think you're being a little short-sighted. I certainly don't
agree with Sawstop trying to get its technology mandated, but I can easily
see it's value. There's always going to be the unknown that suddenly appears
to bite you in the ass. The Sawstop to me is the same as a seatbelt in a
car. It's there *if* something unforeseen happens. Nobody, or at least very
few people I know go out driving to be unsafe, yet accidents happen.

I'm not, and I've always said that I don't think it's a bad idea,
certainly it isn't. I just said that for most people, I think it's an
unnecessary idea. If someone has X amount of money to spend on a
tablesaw, is it better to get the Sawstop and have an inferior saw, or
should you spend your money to get a much better quality saw? I vote
for the better saw. It seems to me that the Sawstop is designed for
people with a little more dollars than sense and yes, I strongly
oppose their trying to force their technology on the rest of us.

On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 00:21:07 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

I'd say 99.99% of the accidents were from carelessness. Personally I know
of no one that is 100% careful and not careless at some time until they die.
It only has to happen once at the right time.
Again, I ask, have you ever cut yourself with a knife?

Sure, but I don't go out and buy safety knives that go dull when
touched with human skin. You live and learn lessons.

Like putting a LOADED gun up to your head and pulling the trigger because
you know the safety is on. Like crashing your vehicle into a concrete wall
because you know that it has air bags. I really do not think that some one
would be careless around a blade spinning at 3500 rpm. The visual would be
enough to scare you.

A tablesaw is a dangerous piece of equipment. Always has been, always
will be. That's not to say that a Sawstop might not be a helpful
addition, if you choose to use it, but it's also an expensive addition
that really isn't worth the cost IMO. As you say, most accidents are
from carelessness, people need to take some personal responsibility
for their own safety and security.

And cars are so safe now that people aren't paying attention to how
they drive and that causes accidents.

Not hard to do at all. But every one on this group, actually everyone is
capable of making a mistake at any time.

So? I certainly don't see the nanny-state needing to mandate that *I*
have to pay extra for my equipment because someone else is being
careless.

Do you use a standard blade guard when cutting dado's?

Absolutely. Of course, I retrofit my saw with an overhead guard so I
can use it for virtually any cut and I have a removeable splitter for
exactly these instances. But then again, we both agree that the
failure to use proper and reasonable care is key in most accidents. I
use care. Do you?

On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 00:43:36 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

I bet a bunch of people said that then the common POS guard, that comes on
almost every saw, was mandated also.

You mean the same people who are removing the guards and having
accidents? What makes you think for a second that even if the Sawstop
became standard equipment, people wouldn't disable it?

Perhaps you do not see the need for more safety equipment but enough people
did to warrant SawStop making the commitment to see this through.

The only thing Sawstop cares about is making money. If they force the
industry to use their technology, they make a bundle. Come on, let's
be honest, they're in it for the paycheck.

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...

I'm not, and I've always said that I don't think it's a bad idea,
certainly it isn't. I just said that for most people, I think it's an
unnecessary idea. If someone has X amount of money to spend on a
tablesaw, is it better to get the Sawstop and have an inferior saw, or
should you spend your money to get a much better quality saw?

So uh, what report have you read that has indicated that the SawStop is
inferior? Which saw in particular tests out better than the SawStop that
does not cost more than the SawStop? Keeping in mind that there have been
a limited few false positives that were resolved on the SawStop, and keeping
in mind that Unisons some times have broken trunions that Delta eventually
admitted was a manufacturing problem and not a shipping problem, and
keeping in mind that some Jet saws had rip fence bar rules that were not
accurate. Some Generals have a blade clearance problem, uh, Grizzly is
much better but once had a lot of shipping problems that ultimately became a
customer problem that he had to resolve. Or should I ask, which brand has
not problems at all???

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...

Sure, but I don't go out and buy safety knives that go dull when
touched with human skin.

Did yo know how to properly handle a knife when you cut your self? Does a
knife that goes dull exist?

You live and learn lessons.

My point exactly.


Like putting a LOADED gun up to your head and pulling the trigger because
you know the safety is on. Like crashing your vehicle into a concrete
wall
because you know that it has air bags. I really do not think that some
one
would be careless around a blade spinning at 3500 rpm. The visual would
be
enough to scare you.

A tablesaw is a dangerous piece of equipment. Always has been, always
will be. That's not to say that a Sawstop might not be a helpful
addition, if you choose to use it, but it's also an expensive addition
that really isn't worth the cost IMO. As you say, most accidents are
from carelessness, people need to take some personal responsibility
for their own safety and security.

Exactly. For many people, going the extra step of spending a a lottle more
money on the SawStop will be taking an extra step towards their own safety
and security.

And cars are so safe now that people aren't paying attention to how
they drive and that causes accidents.

Do you really be lieve that cars are so safe now that people aren't paying
attention to how they drive? Not paying attention to how one drives has
ALWAYS been a problem. The safety of the car has absolutely nothing to do
with not paying attention.


Not hard to do at all. But every one on this group, actually everyone is
capable of making a mistake at any time.

So? I certainly don't see the nanny-state needing to mandate that *I*
have to pay extra for my equipment because someone else is being
careless.

What about the nanny-state that mandates the airbags in your car, that
requires you to carry insurance on your car. Simply a different piece of
equipment.
Because some of my more expensive automobiles have more air bags than my
less expensive cars my insurance is cheaper proportionally on those more
expensive vehicles. If every one had a protection device that prevented
hospital visits perhaps my medical insurance would also be cheaper,
ultimately helping the saw to pay for itself.


Do you use a standard blade guard when cutting dado's?

Absolutely. Of course, I retrofit my saw with an overhead guard so I
can use it for virtually any cut and I have a removeable splitter for
exactly these instances.

Um the overhead guard, is not a standard guard. You paid extra for that.

But then again, we both agree that the
failure to use proper and reasonable care is key in most accidents. I
use care. Do you?

Agreed, and I yes I do use care and have been fortunate enough in the last
16 years that that has been enough.

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 00:43:36 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

I bet a bunch of people said that then the common POS guard, that comes
on
almost every saw, was mandated also.

You mean the same people who are removing the guards and having
accidents? What makes you think for a second that even if the Sawstop
became standard equipment, people wouldn't disable it?

No I mean every one that removes the guard and having accidents or not.
Why would prople that bought a saw in particular for its safety feature
disable it? It certainly does not get in the way or block you view when
being used like the standard guard does? Why did you remove yours and
replace it with an overhead guard?


Perhaps you do not see the need for more safety equipment but enough
people
did to warrant SawStop making the commitment to see this through.

The only thing Sawstop cares about is making money.

Please. That is the primary reason that they and or any other business in
business, to make mone first and formost.

If they force the
industry to use their technology, they make a bundle. Come on, let's
be honest, they're in it for the paycheck.

Yeah, and you work for free, right?

In article , Leon
wrote:

What about the nanny-state that mandates the airbags in your car, that
requires you to carry insurance on your car.

You don't have passengers on your table saw, nor do you run your saw
into other people operating other saws.

The analogy simply doesn't hold, Leon.

--
Talking about art is like dancing about architecture - Frank Zappa

Leon.... buddy.... let it go.

I learned a long time ago that people will do as they will. If the
technology is available to make woodworking or anything else we have in
our lives safer for me and you, then we will probably use it when we
find we need to or when we can make sense of the timing, dollars, and
need.

I intend to take woodworking into retirement. However, I am no so
stupid as to believe that in my 70s I will be as mentally sharp or
physically capable as I am now. I would like that additional safety of
knowing that if I have a senior moment, or a twinge in a joint at an
inopportune time I won't lose a digit to one of my tools. I know you
feel the same way.

Other impairments are on me now, though. I get too tired meeting
deadlines, try to do too many things at once, and take for granted what
I am doing sometimes and don't pay close enough attention. I
understand what the intellectuals of the group collective are saying,
too... no such thing as an accident... all "accidents are
preventable"... if you can't do any better than that perhaps you
shouldn't be using tools... etc. Heard it all before. Truly, in a
perfect textbook world, they are correct.

However, in my world reality raises its ugly head on occasion. ****
happens. My fault, your fault, nobody's fault, it happens. But no
matter where the fault lies, I am ****ed off when the results fall on
me. So a little cushion sounds really good to me.

I don't care about the SawStop conspiracy or the attempt on their part
to change the course of my life. We can see how far that got. So now
we are where we should be, if you want the technology, buy it. If you
don't, don't do it.

I have many years of watching people follow poor safety protocols, or
none at all. They take off safety devices, blade guards, don't wear
safety glasses, don't wear respiratory protection, use broken ladders,
and do just plain stupid stuff. When they are hurt seriously for the
first time, it helps them understand the importance of safety and
safety devices. Until that time, they are bold mofos, loudly ready to
risk life and limb on prinicpal alone, standing the high ground on the
basis of their uninjured selves as examples.

Bully for them, I say. The Darwin awards are always looking for new
candidates. I don't care about the folks that don't want any safety
equipment or devices one way or another. Similarly, I don't care if
they are hurt when they disarm/remove/ignore the things that would make
their tool usage more safe under a larger variety of conditions.

Let 'em rip, Leon. (No pun intened...) You won't make or win your
point.

Robert

Robatoy wrote:

Simple... it's supposed to be:
"Cut the cheese"
"Hide the sausage"

Bop the baloney...

On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 03:36:14 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Chuck Taylor" wrote in message
.. .


Out of curiosity, Leon, a few weeks ago you were speaking highly of
Powermatic's new table saw, which lacks this safety feature. Have you
changed your mind?


No not at all. There are several great products out there on the market.
Each has it strong points and each deserves a fair shake in the area that it
may excel. Unlike the SawStop the Powermatic 2000 does not have the blade
stop technology however it unlike many originally American branded saws does
have a riving knife like the SawStop. Sooo this may be a first step of the
competition taking a second look at SawStops lead with a saw with more
safety features.

Does the riving knife on the Powermatic remove easily so you can use a
dado blade? Or have they gone all European and shortened the arbor so
you can't even use a stacked dado?

I really like the idea of a riving knife, but I do a lot of dados too.

Oh, I'm also pretty unconcerned about the SawStop until they start
mandating it. Probably works great, but the only times I've even come
close have been during coast-down, when it wouldn't make any
difference anyway.

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Tim Douglass" wrote in message
...

Does the riving knife on the Powermatic remove easily so you can use a
dado blade? Or have they gone all European and shortened the arbor so
you can't even use a stacked dado?

Apparently the riving knife comes out easily. The local dealer yanked the
riving knife out with out tools before I actually knew what he was doing
during his short demonstration. Suddenly it was laying on the TS top.


I really like the idea of a riving knife, but I do a lot of dados too.

Oh, I'm also pretty unconcerned about the SawStop until they start
mandating it. Probably works great, but the only times I've even come
close have been during coast-down, when it wouldn't make any
difference anyway.

Actually the SawStop does provide protection during coast-down. Only if you
turn the saw off in the conventional way with the regular on/off switch.
That switch only turns the motor off, the electronics and cartridge remain
effective during coast down.
Early on I enquired to SawStop about that since that was how I got cut.

If you loose power, unplug the saw or turn the saw off by the master cut
off switch you would not be protected.

On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 19:38:20 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Tim Douglass" wrote in message
.. .

Does the riving knife on the Powermatic remove easily so you can use a
dado blade? Or have they gone all European and shortened the arbor so
you can't even use a stacked dado?

Apparently the riving knife comes out easily. The local dealer yanked the
riving knife out with out tools before I actually knew what he was doing
during his short demonstration. Suddenly it was laying on the TS top.

That's good design.

Oh, I'm also pretty unconcerned about the SawStop until they start
mandating it. Probably works great, but the only times I've even come
close have been during coast-down, when it wouldn't make any
difference anyway.

Actually the SawStop does provide protection during coast-down. Only if you
turn the saw off in the conventional way with the regular on/off switch.
That switch only turns the motor off, the electronics and cartridge remain
effective during coast down.
Early on I enquired to SawStop about that since that was how I got cut.

If you loose power, unplug the saw or turn the saw off by the master cut
off switch you would not be protected.

Now that you mention it, I think that was discussed in one of the
interminable threads long ago.

I'm not yet in the market for a new saw, and may never be in the
market for a saw of that price. But it does interest me.

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Tim Douglass" wrote in message
...

That's good design.


Remember, that is on the newer PM 2000 not the PM66.

On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 00:09:25 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

No I mean every one that removes the guard and having accidents or not.
Why would prople that bought a saw in particular for its safety feature
disable it? It certainly does not get in the way or block you view when
being used like the standard guard does? Why did you remove yours and
replace it with an overhead guard?

Because we're not talking about people who go out and purposely buy
SawStops, we're talking about people who are forced to pay extra for a
piece of technology that they neither want, nor need. The fact that
every time the thing goes off, you're out $200. You don't think
people are going to disable that?

Please. That is the primary reason that they and or any other business in
business, to make mone first and formost.

Yup, and they want an entire industry to use *THEIR* technology. It
isn't a matter of them campaigning for *SOME* safety equipment, they
want everyone to be forced to use *THEIR* equipment.

This has nothing to do with safety, it has to do with making a buck.

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...

Nope, I didn't pay any extra for it, I built it myself with stuff I
already had around the shop.

So uh your shop is like mine. Stuff magically appears. :~) and in my case
disappears?

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 00:09:25 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


Because we're not talking about people who go out and purposely buy
SawStops, we're talking about people who are forced to pay extra for a
piece of technology that they neither want, nor need. The fact that
every time the thing goes off, you're out $200. You don't think
people are going to disable that?

Well so far no one has been forced to do anything. So if they buy the
SawStop it is their own decision.
No, I do not think a person will disable the SawStop and IIRC there has been
no mention by the owners of the SawStop of purposely defeating the system as
a permanent cure.


Please. That is the primary reason that they and or any other business in
business, to make mone first and formost.

Yup, and they want an entire industry to use *THEIR* technology. It
isn't a matter of them campaigning for *SOME* safety equipment, they
want everyone to be forced to use *THEIR* equipment.

Well, wouldn't you, if you were in their shoes? Seriousely wouldn't it be
nice if you were legally getting a percentage of every TS being sold?

This has nothing to do with safety, it has to do with making a buck.

That is not entirely true. They could just as easily be marketing something
else unique for the TS and try to have it mandated also. They did however
realize that a better safety devise would cut down drastically on severe
injuries. Suppose they decided that every TS should have a laser cutter
that only cut wood and only cut as deep a the thickness of the wood. The
technology is here as most WW shows have a vendor selling laser engravers
and some are less than $10k. That could easily be around the corner and
would give SawStop and every one else a run for the money.
You can sit back and watch other countries continue to out manufacture the
US but I think the SawStop company is a breath of fresh air in contrast to
the some ole some ole.
And again, it is for the buck like every other company in the U.S.

No, I wouldn't. There are still a few of us in the US that see ethics as
more important than money. We're getting damned rare though.

"Leon" wrote in message news:SKLOf.39808

Well, wouldn't you, if you were in their shoes?

Unquestionably Confused wrote:
Dave Balderstone wrote:

In article , Leon
wrote:


So the tech would not be as good if it was mandated?



"Mandated" is not a word.

Mandate is a noun. Nouns do not have tenses.

What are you trying to say?


I think he's trying to say that it's required. Abd perhaps that he's
one of those individuals who doesn't like government telling him how to
live his life - at least that aspect of his life that concerns primarily
his own well-being.


I don't know what dictionary you checked but you have to check beyond
the main word entry...

man·date (măn'dÄ?t')
n.
An authoritative command or instruction.
A command or an authorization given by a political electorate to its
representative.

A commission from the League of Nations authorizing a member nation to
administer a territory.
A region under such administration.
Law.
An order issued by a superior court or an official to a lower court.
A contract by which one party agrees to perform services for another
without payment.
tr.v., -dat·ed, -dat·ing, -dates.
To assign (a colony or territory) to a specified nation under a mandate.
To make mandatory, as by law; decree or requi mandated desegregation
of public schools.

The above was off the internet. Just to be sure, I checked Webster's
New World Dictionary and they also list it as a transitive verb.

Then again, your main point is well taken. Akin to cutting off one's
nose to spite their face. I'm not aware of any law being broken in
attempting to create a market for one's product through legislation -
especially in matters of safety.

If anyone doubts this, simply look back at things like, oh, seatbelts,
motorcycle helmets, etc. Which came first? The product or the mandated
usage thereof?


I think that most of these guys who are objecting to this "technology"
are like me, tired of being protected from themselves. It seems that
safety requirements are based upon the assumption that everyone using a
vehicle, or any other machinery which may cause injury or death if
misused, is an imbecile incapable of using "common sense".

In article , Moon
wrote:

I think that most of these guys who are objecting to this "technology"
are like me, tired of being protected from themselves. It seems that
safety requirements are based upon the assumption that everyone using a
vehicle, or any other machinery which may cause injury or death if
misused, is an imbecile incapable of using "common sense".

Spot on. I think the technology is amazing, and I'm all for it. I
object to the tactics of the company in trying to force their
*patented* technology on the marketplace.

--
Talking about art is like dancing about architecture - Frank Zappa

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 17:03:39 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Tim Douglass" wrote in message
.. .

That's good design.


Remember, that is on the newer PM 2000 not the PM66.

By the time I can afford a decent saw it will be the PM 50,000

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 00:54:10 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

Well so far no one has been forced to do anything. So if they buy the
SawStop it is their own decision.

That may not hold forever, if SawStop gets their way.

No, I do not think a person will disable the SawStop and IIRC there has been
no mention by the owners of the SawStop of purposely defeating the system as
a permanent cure.

Well, if they ever did mandate it and I was forced to buy a saw with
their technology, I'll be the first one to disable it.

Well, wouldn't you, if you were in their shoes? Seriousely wouldn't it be
nice if you were legally getting a percentage of every TS being sold?

If I had to force everyone to buy my product, nope. That's why we
have this thing called the FREE MARKET. It means people have a choice
whether or not to buy. If they have no choice, they have no freedom.