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#1
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? Beautiful wood turned
to ugly. I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me Gary |
#2
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
GeeDubb wrote:
did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? No idea. Didn't see it. Beautiful wood turned to ugly. I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me One man's beauty is another man's ugly. Nothing more complicated than that. Joe Barta |
#3
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
He'd just finished painting his mahogany poker table mahogany-colored
and was on a roll. |
#4
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:07:52 -0700, "GeeDubb"
wrote: did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? Beautiful wood turned to ugly. I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me Gary Yeah. Norm does that. Makes a wonderful project using a premium wood, then stains the hell out of it (almost as bad a paint), sigh. |
#5
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
I was rather surprised to see that myself until I thought about it. This is
Norm usual. He doesn't seem to like the natural color of any wood. All his stain jobs are very, very dark and for paint, green seems to be a favorite. He did admit on one show that he was not known for good finishes. He said that the piece he was making that day (I don't remember what it was) was going to be finished different than the prototype. The crew all told him that the prototype was so ugly, he needed to do something different for the show. I've seen him apply a dark stain to cherry and paint teak green. "GeeDubb" wrote in message ... did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? Beautiful wood turned to ugly. I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me Gary |
#6
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:43:39 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
Phisherman quickly quoth: On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:07:52 -0700, "GeeDubb" wrote: did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? Beautiful wood turned to ugly. I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me Yeah. Norm does that. Makes a wonderful project using a premium wood, then stains the hell out of it (almost as bad a paint), sigh. He sands only to 150, stains the **** out of it (to bring out the scratches?), nails things onto it, then swabs poly all over it. Oy vay! - The advantage of exercising every day is that you die healthier. ------------ http://diversify.com Dynamic Websites, PHP Apps, MySQL databases |
#7
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
"GeeDubb" wrote in message ... did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? Beautiful wood turned to ugly. I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me Gary My guess is that it's because he's sponsored by Minwax. Gary in Virginia |
#8
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
I kind of find it funny when I am at shows, and people ask me what
stains do I use. " I don't stain anything, these are the natural colors of the woods." "Oh, they are so beautiful" I don't know where people get the idea that wood has to be stained to look good. robo hippy There is intelligent life here, but I am only visiting. unknown |
#9
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
"robo hippy" wrote in message oups.com... I don't know where people get the idea that wood has to be stained to look good. robo hippy Because most people that stain, stain unfinished pine furniture. |
#10
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
GeeDubb (in ) said:
| did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? Beautiful | wood turned to ugly. | | I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me 'Cause it was nicer than the avocado latex he had in the paint shed? -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto |
#11
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
"GeeDubb" wrote in message ... did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? Beautiful wood turned to ugly. I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me Just take a look at Norm's entire body of work. He almost always smears some black tar crap on what was a nice looking piece of furniture, although I think that it may actually not be as dark in reality as it looks in the finishing room on the show. I can't recall him ever leaving anything a natural color. Frank |
#12
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
"Morris Dovey" wrote in message GeeDubb said: | did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? Beautiful | wood turned to ugly. | | I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me 'Cause it was nicer than the avocado latex he had in the paint shed? .... and it had five pounds of brads in it, so why not? -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 12/13/05 |
#13
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Phisherman wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:07:52 -0700, "GeeDubb" wrote: did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? Beautiful wood turned to ugly. I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me Gary Yeah. Norm does that. Makes a wonderful project using a premium wood, then stains the hell out of it (almost as bad a paint), sigh. Never seen the show, but it gets right up my nose when blokes do that sort of thing. Worked for a furniture company once that specialised in making Jarrah side boards and kitchens. They used to make this real beaut piece out of sold Jarrah, then slap Jarrah stain on it, "So as to even out the colour". IMO they should have used merrantie or pine and whacked the Jarrah stain on that. Leave the real stuff for blokes that appreciate real timber and it's many colours and defects. regards John |
#14
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
"Gary in Virginia" wrote in message link.net... "GeeDubb" wrote in message ... did Norm stain black walnut with a dark walnut stain? Beautiful wood turned to ugly. I just don't understand, somebody 'spain it to me Gary My guess is that it's because he's sponsored by Minwax. Gary in Virginia Who make all manner of clear finishes as well. Doubt it. Norm's still got the carpenter mentality, I think, where he's knocking things together out of #2 common SPF and trying to make it look good. Ever try to match spruce to pine or white pine to red? Takes a heap of color and glaze. |
#15
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
He did admit on one show that he was not known for good finishes.
Maybe he's color-blind. Seriously. That would explain the unusual paint schemes. brian |
#16
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
"Frank Ketchum" wrote in message
news:rLRHf.14645 Just take a look at Norm's entire body of work. He almost always smears some black tar crap on what was a nice looking piece of furniture, although I think that it may actually not be as dark in reality as it looks in the finishing room on the show. I can't recall him ever leaving anything a natural color. I'd have to check which ones but I recall projects finished with Danish oil only. Cheers! Duke |
#17
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
While Norm is frequently used for target practice with most "almost
professionals", I am wondering since he is a paid employee of Morash if he has a choice. Especially since he has said more than once that he makes almost always make three of each piece; one to sell, one for the show, and one for sale/show/Morash. I guess the other thought would be... gawd forbid... maybe in his own simple, pedestrian way, he likes it. I guess many here would stop watching if they found out poor Norm actually had different tastes than the "experts". I watch eagerly for each of your shows to show how to finish "correctly". Robert |
#18
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
"brianlanning" wrote in message ups.com... He did admit on one show that he was not known for good finishes. Maybe he's color-blind. Seriously. That would explain the unusual paint schemes. I have to use some proprietary software from time to time that is a graphically intense program. And the guy who does all the graphics is color blind. I have to spend hours changing the colors to something that doesn't give me headaches. Talk about putting the wrong guy on this particular task. |
#19
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 01:33:43 +0000, Leon wrote:
"robo hippy" wrote in message oups.com... I don't know where people get the idea that wood has to be stained to look good. robo hippy Because most people that stain, stain unfinished pine furniture. Some truth in this. I know, I was one of them. Started out 25 years ago buying home center pine and staining and varnishing everything. Now I use hardwoods and haven't used stain for several years. Finishes of choice are shellac, homemade wiping varnish, and sometimes oil. Sometimes I like the way Norm finishes his projects. Most of the time I don't. Since they are his projects and not mine I figure he can do what he wants and I'll do what I want. D.G. Adams |
#20
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Grow up.
wrote in message ups.com... While Norm is frequently used for target practice with most "almost professionals", I am wondering since he is a paid employee of Morash if he has a choice. Especially since he has said more than once that he makes almost always make three of each piece; one to sell, one for the show, and one for sale/show/Morash. I guess the other thought would be... gawd forbid... maybe in his own simple, pedestrian way, he likes it. I guess many here would stop watching if they found out poor Norm actually had different tastes than the "experts". I watch eagerly for each of your shows to show how to finish "correctly". Robert |
#21
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
I know Norm bashing is popular but in his defence staining is often
necessary in the real world. Customers often have expectations that must be met. They may expect their new cherry table to look like 100 year old cherry that they see in antique furnitue and don't want to wait for it to darken. If you want to make the sale you do what you have to to try to give that look. If you are doing a one off showpiece you can spend three years looking for a piece of wood with that perfect figure. If you are making kitchen cabinets for moderate prices you may have to "enhance" the appearance a little. Stains, glazes and even topcoats change and enhance the appearance of wood. Oils, shellac and even varnishes add color to the appearance. Ironically some of the much ridiculed polyurethanes probably are the clearest, read least colormodifying, coatings. You may be lucky and able to enjoy the natural looks of woods. but even recreational woodworkers have customers to deal with, specifically SWMBO, so learning the technique probably isn't a bad idea. Now I won't defend Norms skills as a finisher. If you want to be really good at it get a good book like Bob Flexner's and spend your couch time productively. |
#22
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Lee Michaels wrote:
"brianlanning" wrote in message ups.com... He did admit on one show that he was not known for good finishes. Maybe he's color-blind. Seriously. That would explain the unusual paint schemes. I have to use some proprietary software from time to time that is a graphically intense program. And the guy who does all the graphics is color blind. I have to spend hours changing the colors to something that doesn't give me headaches. Talk about putting the wrong guy on this particular task. Had a mate who was describing the paint job he intended to do on house. He was trying to give me an idea of the tone of red he was going to use and after looking around the sitting room and finding nothing the colour he had in mind, pointed out the window and said "There, that's the colour, the same red as the door on your shed". The door on my shed is GREEN, this bloke was a copper to. regards John |
#23
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Leon wrote:
Because most people that stain, stain unfinished pine furniture. What's really sad is that if you're buying unfinished pine furniture, it looks heaps better down the road if it was simply clear coated then stained. Or for that matter, milk painted. I've seen old pine stuff take on a decent look because it was coated with shellac or an oil varnish. Again, not appropriate for the Vanderbilt's ballroom, but still displaying a comfy, warm, country charm. OTOH, pine stained with Minwax Dark or Special Walnut just NEVER seems to look good. G Barry |
#24
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
On 13 Feb 2006 19:24:43 -0800, "ktc" wrote:
I know Norm bashing is popular but in his defence staining is often necessary in the real world. Not by cabinetmakers working at Norm's level, with timber of that quality. There are good reasons for staining. Nearly all are a combination of either cheap timber or ignorant clients. If you're not constrained in this way then there's no excuse for doing it as Norm does - taking perfectly fine timber and ruining it. |
#25
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On 13 Feb 2006 19:24:43 -0800, "ktc" wrote: I know Norm bashing is popular but in his defence staining is often necessary in the real world. Not by cabinetmakers working at Norm's level, with timber of that quality. There are good reasons for staining. Nearly all are a combination of either cheap timber or ignorant clients. If you're not constrained in this way then there's no excuse for doing it as Norm does - taking perfectly fine timber and ruining it. I have made that point before. Somebody got all upset wih me and said that Norm was just being "historically accurate". Which I thought was just stupid. Why take beautiful wood and cover it up? If that is some kinda tradition, we don't need it. Wood has its own unique beauty and it is a crime to cover it up. (Think we can get that legislation passed?) |
#26
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
"Lee Michaels" writes:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message .. . On 13 Feb 2006 19:24:43 -0800, "ktc" wrote: I know Norm bashing is popular but in his defence staining is often necessary in the real world. Not by cabinetmakers working at Norm's level, with timber of that quality. There are good reasons for staining. Nearly all are a combination of either cheap timber or ignorant clients. If you're not constrained in this way then there's no excuse for doing it as Norm does - taking perfectly fine timber and ruining it. I have made that point before. Somebody got all upset wih me and said that Norm was just being "historically accurate". Which I thought was just stupid. Why take beautiful wood and cover it up? If that is some kinda tradition, we don't need it. Wood has its own unique beauty and it is a crime to cover it up. (Think we can get that legislation passed?) Say what? Man, if someone wants to use stain, more power to them. Who are you, or I to say what looks best? To you a clear finish looks good. To Norm, and many many others, stain is a look they like. Why not just let them do as they like? scott |
#27
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Say what? Man, if someone wants to use stain, more power to them. Who are you, or I to say what looks best? To you a clear finish looks good. To Norm, and many many others, stain is a look they like. Why not just let them do as they like? I agree. I tend to not like natural finish wood. I usually like a darker and more robust finish. Then again I kinda like chubby chicks, so who the hell is going to listen to me anyway?? Joe Barta |
#28
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
"Joe Barta" wrote in message .. . Scott Lurndal wrote: Say what? Man, if someone wants to use stain, more power to them. Who are you, or I to say what looks best? To you a clear finish looks good. To Norm, and many many others, stain is a look they like. Why not just let them do as they like? I agree. I tend to not like natural finish wood. I usually like a darker and more robust finish. Then again I kinda like chubby chicks, so who the hell is going to listen to me anyway?? Joe Barta Hey Joe, did you say something? Gary ;-) |
#29
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Andy Dingley wrote:
There are good reasons for staining. Nearly all are a combination of either cheap timber or ignorant clients. If you're not constrained in this way then there's no excuse for doing it as Norm does - taking perfectly fine timber and ruining it. Holy crap I wish I was that proud of my opinion. I am thinking now of all the ignorant clients I have had over the years... they didn't know that they shouldn't have their cabinets, built-ins, and decorative moldings painted or stained. It is always reassuring to me to see the level of acceptance of the ideas of others in this group. Outstanding. I always thought that you could do what you wanted with your own personal projects, but not too sure now. And now to find out my well heeled clients are "ignorant"; it may be more than I can handle. After all I do what they want, that is what they pay me to do. Some folks here may be sorely surprised at the masses of the great unwashed, the unknowing, that actually prefer stain and paint. My own personal taste is a natural oil for most pieces, maybe with an occasional tint to highlight some grain patterns. However, if Norm or anyone else want to **** on their projects for finish, I am fine with that. He could stain it brown with whatever he thought was fine, and as long as he could contain the smell (I do have some limits). It's his project. He built it. I personally wouldn't give a moment of thought to asking someone else what they preferred on my projects. If I built it, that sombitch is mine. Period. Time to get the brad/glue bitch going again. Or maybe the one where he is a puppet for his coporate masters to shill machinery. Robert |
#30
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
wrote:
I am thinking now of all the ignorant clients I have had over the years... they didn't know that they shouldn't have their cabinets, built-ins, and decorative moldings painted or stained. Quite a few years ago I was going through a book on old Georgian colonial homes. It had many full page photos of amazing interior woodworking... to me, it was some of the most beautiful stuff in the world. I remember distinctly seeing a caption below one of the pictures noting that while the wood paneling and various woodworking were currently a natural type finish, when the home was built it would have been common for the woodwork to have been painted, and in fact this interior had been stripped of paint at some point. I thought... paint? As I thought about it further, even though it seemed odd *to me*, I suppose the rooms would look damn fine painted. I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and beauty is often what the beholder thinks beauty is *supposed* to be. Joe Barta |
#31
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
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#32
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Joe Barta said:
I remember distinctly seeing a caption below one of the pictures noting that while the wood paneling and various woodworking were currently a natural type finish, when the home was built it would have been common for the woodwork to have been painted, and in fact this interior had been stripped of paint at some point. I thought... paint? As I thought about it further, even though it seemed odd *to me*, I suppose the rooms would look damn fine painted. Much fine woodworking is indeed painted, but I still cringe to think of buying that $7 bf walnut and painting or staining / glazing it. That's what poplar is for... :-o Temporal perceptions have altered the general public consensus on what "looks good" in this decade. As the commonplace and mundane woods of yesteryear faded to synthetics, gypsum and latex, we now find ourselves celebrating natural woods once again. I suppose in times past, being surrounded by unfinished wooden bowls, spoons, tables, chairs, and well... everything, paint was considered quite upscale. The changing fortunes of time continue to wreak havoc on expectations. Now that wood isn't so common, we yearn for what was once concealed. FWIW, Greg G. |
#33
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
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#34
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Greg G. wrote:
Temporal perceptions have altered the general public consensus on what "looks good" in this decade. As the commonplace and mundane woods of yesteryear faded to synthetics, gypsum and latex, we now find ourselves celebrating natural woods once again. I suppose in times past, being surrounded by unfinished wooden bowls, spoons, tables, chairs, and well... everything, paint was considered quite upscale. The changing fortunes of time continue to wreak havoc on expectations. Now that wood isn't so common, we yearn for what was once concealed. How very true is that? I work on a lot of houses (the one I looked at yesterday was built in 1927; appraised value 1.1 million) and most of the older homes had painted wood of a quality we will never see again. This had all Douglas fir pediments, keyed trim around the windows with all wood frames with sills and skirts. All with no knots, rough spots, or curly grain. This also applied to the shoe mold, the 6" crown molding (not sure of the wood, though) and the door casings with transoms. All was gleefully painted. With many coats, too. When I am in the attic of an older house, it is not uncommon for me to see rafters in the 18 - 20' range in pine that have no knots at all for the entire length. It was only framing lumber for the builder, but for us it would be treasure. For me, as stated, I like finishes that let the wood come through. That's been the norm for many and certainly the hobby guys for many years now. But 30 years ago when I started out, we stained everything. I mean everything. The style was darker woods, like the old dark libraries and studies, and the dark walled game rooms. We stained trim, paneling, cabinets, doors, etc. I mean everything. We stained walnut to a darker walnut. We stained cherry to a cherry red, not mild pink. In later years, we painted over a lot of the clear lacquer finishes on kitchen cabinets and built ins as the French Country style of deorating took hold. Everything had to be painted out white. Everything. I must admit, it was a huge improvement for some of the kitchens we reworked. But those weren't my projects, so I just did what the client wanted. What someone chooses for a finish wasn't any of my business then, and don't think it is now. Sure, I'll agree that it is hard to watch Norm slather on some of those finishes, but hey... it's his project. I just took offense to an earlier post that pronounced that people that finish wood contrary to their authorotative, magificent opinon were simply ignorant. Just about two shades of dark walnut too arrogant for me. Robert |
#35
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Joe Barta wrote:
I remember distinctly seeing a caption below one of the pictures noting that while the wood paneling and various woodworking were currently a natural type finish, when the home was built it would have been common for the woodwork to have been painted, and in fact this interior had been stripped of paint at some point. I thought... paint? I remember reading something about wealthy people having painted woodwork, while common trim was natural. Some of the painted built up trim was cherry or mahogany! G Apparently paint was very expensive at one time and only the wealthy could afford it. |
#36
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
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#37
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Enoch Root wrote:
I remember someone noticed and pointed out that Norm stains everything... I don't remember anyone being "arrogant". This was the statement made... "There are good reasons for staining. Nearly all are a combination of either cheap timber or ignorant clients. If you're not constrained in this way then there's no excuse for doing it as Norm does - taking perfectly fine timber and ruining it." Maybe straddling the border between opinion and arrogance. Then again, we're talking about arrogance like it's a bad thing ;-) Joe Barta |
#38
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NYW Shop Clock..why oh why
Joe Barta wrote:
Enoch Root wrote: I remember someone noticed and pointed out that Norm stains everything... I don't remember anyone being "arrogant". This was the statement made... "There are good reasons for staining. Nearly all are a combination of either cheap timber or ignorant clients. If you're not constrained in this way then there's no excuse for doing it as Norm does - taking perfectly fine timber and ruining it." Maybe straddling the border between opinion and arrogance. Then again, we're talking about arrogance like it's a bad thing ;-) Okay, I was looking (upthread) at a different (similar) statement--one not as strongly worded. I still think it's a strong opinion, not arrogance. I have no qualms with strong opinions if someone can back them up. Mind you, matters of taste seem like the most pointless topic in which to do this... er -- email not valid |
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