My opinion of fluorescent lighting: Can't stand it. Especially in my shop
where it makes my wood look pale. When I'm knee-deep in a project and
there's wood and shavings all over, fluorescent makes it look messy where
incandescent gives everything a nice glow.
I know the advantages of fluorescent but just not willing to put up with the
dull mood it creates.

On a related note
A client of mine just installed power-saver bulbs in his basement. I went
down there and turned on the switch. I could see the bulbs came on but none
of the light actually reached the floor, heh.

Battleax said:

My opinion of fluorescent lighting: Can't stand it. Especially in my shop
where it makes my wood look pale. When I'm knee-deep in a project and
there's wood and shavings all over, fluorescent makes it look messy where
incandescent gives everything a nice glow.
I know the advantages of fluorescent but just not willing to put up with the
dull mood it creates.

There are many color spectrums available in fluorescent bulbs.
Tri-spectrum and broadband bulbs eliminate much of that washed out
effect you get from cheap "shop lights". Which is why everyone from
art departments to operating rooms to your local butcher uses them.
And if you buy them from a commerical lighting supplier (not Grainer
or the Borg), they are not expensive.

But to each his own... g

On a related note
A client of mine just installed power-saver bulbs in his basement. I went
down there and turned on the switch. I could see the bulbs came on but none
of the light actually reached the floor, heh.

ES bulbs are NOT the same as real T-12's or T-8's - they're mostly a
bad joke - a knee jerk reaction to increased energy costs in the 80's.

Lumens per watt are greatly increased over incandescent.

FWIW,

Greg G.

The "dull mood" comes from the spectrum (mix of colors) given off by a "cool
white" fluorescent tube. You might want to try a "warm white" tube which
produces a yellowish color, or a "daylight" tube which produces a bluish
color. There also is some variation between different manufacturers. I
really like the spectrum given off by the GE branded compact fluorescent
bulbs (ie. compatible with incandescent fixtures) from Menards. I have 9 of
them in my kitchen. I also like the Feit brand.

In my shop, I use cool white, high output bulbs. Cold and dull, but with
white walls and a gray concrete floor, I just want it bright.

"Battleax" wrote in message
...
My opinion of fluorescent lighting: Can't stand it. Especially in my shop
where it makes my wood look pale. When I'm knee-deep in a project and
there's wood and shavings all over, fluorescent makes it look messy where
incandescent gives everything a nice glow.
I know the advantages of fluorescent but just not willing to put up with
the
dull mood it creates.

On a related note
A client of mine just installed power-saver bulbs in his basement. I went
down there and turned on the switch. I could see the bulbs came on but
none
of the light actually reached the floor, heh.

AL said:

In my shop, I use cool white, high output bulbs. Cold and dull, but with
white walls and a gray concrete floor, I just want it bright.

I use T-8 5000k broad-spectrum bulbs - $3.05 each.
Just like sunlight at noon - without the cancer. g
They last for _years_ and no flicker - well, no visible flicker when
they run at 22kHz on an electronic ballast. I HATE the strobing
effect of magnetic ballasted lamps.

FWIW,

Greg G.

another worthless opinion of ignorance extraordinaire battleass.


Just saying Hi!


BWAHAHAHAAAAAA

"Battleax" wrote in message
...
My opinion of fluorescent lighting: Can't stand it. Especially in my shop
where it makes my wood look pale. When I'm knee-deep in a project and
there's wood and shavings all over, fluorescent makes it look messy where
incandescent gives everything a nice glow.
I know the advantages of fluorescent but just not willing to put up with
the
dull mood it creates.

On a related note
A client of mine just installed power-saver bulbs in his basement. I went
down there and turned on the switch. I could see the bulbs came on but
none
of the light actually reached the floor, heh.

and another xpert.................
Howdy!


"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Battleax said:

My opinion of fluorescent lighting: Can't stand it. Especially in my shop
where it makes my wood look pale. When I'm knee-deep in a project and
there's wood and shavings all over, fluorescent makes it look messy where
incandescent gives everything a nice glow.
I know the advantages of fluorescent but just not willing to put up with
the
dull mood it creates.

There are many color spectrums available in fluorescent bulbs.
Tri-spectrum and broadband bulbs eliminate much of that washed out
effect you get from cheap "shop lights". Which is why everyone from
art departments to operating rooms to your local butcher uses them.
And if you buy them from a commerical lighting supplier (not Grainer
or the Borg), they are not expensive.

But to each his own... g

On a related note
A client of mine just installed power-saver bulbs in his basement. I went
down there and turned on the switch. I could see the bulbs came on but
none
of the light actually reached the floor, heh.

ES bulbs are NOT the same as real T-12's or T-8's - they're mostly a
bad joke - a knee jerk reaction to increased energy costs in the 80's.

Lumens per watt are greatly increased over incandescent.

FWIW,

Greg G.

"Battleax" wrote in message
...
My opinion of fluorescent lighting: Can't stand it. Especially in my shop
where it makes my wood look pale. When I'm knee-deep in a project and
there's wood and shavings all over, fluorescent makes it look messy where
incandescent gives everything a nice glow.
I know the advantages of fluorescent but just not willing to put up with
the
dull mood it creates.

On a related note
A client of mine just installed power-saver bulbs in his basement. I went
down there and turned on the switch. I could see the bulbs came on but
none
of the light actually reached the floor, heh.

I am slowly replacing all of my lamps and fixtures with T5 lamps and
electronic ballasts. Not the cheap HD type but from a local wholesale
electric supplier. Man are they bright and the color is 5000k - very
bright!
Dave



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
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On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 12:35:14 +0000, Ba r r y wrote:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:00:14 -0500, "Battleax"
wrote:

I know the advantages of fluorescent but just not willing to put up with
the dull mood it creates.


Retail stores don't move much merchandise under dull, cold lighting. They
figured out long ago that "True Color" fluorescent are worth the bucks.


I've used the GE "Kitchen and Bath" bulbs both in the workshop and for
lighting my model railroad. To my eye, they're very close to sunlight but
I don't know the color temperature.

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 23:52:33 +0000, Ba r r y wrote:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:30:16 -0800, Larry Blanchard
wrote:

I've used the GE "Kitchen and Bath" bulbs both in the workshop and for
lighting my model railroad.

Got any model RR photos on the web?



Not many - some "under construction" types. See at:

http://www.intergate.com/~lard



Sooo many interests... G

Tell me about it. I recently picked up a new one - tropical fish. I
guess I'll give up gardening to make time. Besides, I'm getting too old
for shovel work :-).

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:05:05 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

The platys will take hard, even brachish water. Get yourself a freshwater
puffer fish and your pond snail problem will be taken care of instanter.

Many species of loaches eat snails as well. My grey worm loach keeps the
numbers down considerably. I actually _put_ snails into my tanks, but not
the common, plant eating, pond snail variety.

Are you sure this isn't the aquarium newsgroup? grin

Yep, I bought some clown loaches which, like the suggested pleco, will
outgrow my tanks eventually. The biggest I'll ever have room for is an
18"x36", which is either a 50 or a 55, I forget.

And I plan on putting both Maylasian trumpet snails and blackworms into my
tanks a month or so before the fish.

And for he who mentioned algae, a lot of healthy plants will outcompete
the algae.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:17:50 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

This is the 75g in the Media Room. (That's the room with the 5 32"
televisions sitting in the floor as back-up to the aging projection set -
just can't bear to throw things away or sell them...)

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...lants_1_2l.jpg

Very nice. My 10 gallon looks like that, on a much smaller scale of
course. And the larger tanks will too.

If anyone hasn't looked at Greg's tank picture yet, do so.

In article , Larry
Blanchard wrote:

Tell me about it. I recently picked up a new one - tropical fish

Need some guppies?

;-)

Go for the African cichlids or S.A. killifish... In my mind they're the
most interesting. Or perhaps the mormyrids...

Or the Amazon cichlids...

Or...

--
Life. Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. -- Dr. Who

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 22:14:09 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 19:12:28 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:


Need some guppies?

Go for the African cichlids or S.A. killifish... In my mind they're the
most interesting. Or perhaps the mormyrids...

Or the Amazon cichlids...

Right now I have 3 empty tanks and am building stands for them (obligatory
woodworking reference). The "display" 29 gallon in the livingroom will be
various tetras. The 20H in my room will be forktail blue-eyes or a
related species, and the 20L will be dwarf neon rainbows. All tanks will
have some catfish for cleanup duties.

I do have a 10 gallon with a variety of fish and some #$#@! pond snails,
and a 5.5 gallon with some female platys - the males are in the 10 gallon.
After 3 generations I thought it was time to force them into celibacy :-).

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 19:12:28 -0600, Dave Balderstone
wrote:

In article , Larry
Blanchard wrote:

Tell me about it. I recently picked up a new one - tropical fish

Need some guppies?

;-)

Go for the African cichlids or S.A. killifish... In my mind they're the
most interesting. Or perhaps the mormyrids...

Or the Amazon cichlids...

Or...

Tinfoil barbs are also very cool. We had one that had gotten to frying
pan size before we left Texas. Forgot what we got for it at the pet store
when we moved. The cichlids were neat also, but the Barbs added an
interesting splash of silver.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Got any model RR photos on the web?

Years ago I was into that, and I still enjoy looking at other's stuff.

Ever check out the Silk City Model RR Club in Manchester? They have a
huge layout and periodically (one Sunday a month I think) they open it to
the public.

http://www.nehobby.com/#ssmmr

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:18:13 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

It's a common micro sword - Echinodorus tennellus, The true hair grasses
demand too much light for my meager budget.

Do you harvest handfuls of the stuff every few months? I do :-).

And I'm glad to hear it doesn't need a lot of light. Maybe I'll try some
in a 20 with just a single 15 watt fluorescent.

I've got a 20 long that's very old (cost me $2 at a garage sale) and none
of the commercial hoods/tops fit it. I'm going to build a top
(woodworking reference) using four waterproof incandescent sockets and put
the screw-in fluroescents in it. 60 watts for 20 gallons = lots of red
plants :-).

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:27:54 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

I've found it hard to find interesting fish these days. All the
independents have gone out of business, and the Chain's carry nothing
but the same-old-crap. When I was a kid, there was a really cool store
in Lindburg that carried an unbelievable variety of stock.

We've still got at least 3 here in Spokane. One specializes in sal****er
fish, so I don't go there. Another has a good selection of plants, but is
highly opinionated, so I go there only when necessary.

The third usually has a good selection of freshwater fish, and sometimes
live blackworms, but no live plants. They got in a new shipment for the
big shopping weekend and I went down to see them. I bought some panda
cories, but the interesting thing was a tank with 3 bichers in it.

I'd read about them but never seen them before. Supposedly they've been
around since the Jurassic. Pectoral fins that look like fingers,
protruding nostrils, lungs, and some really strange spiky fins on an
eel-shaped body. Altogether a very ugly fish, but I wish I had room for
one :-).

Larry Blanchard said:

Right now I have 3 empty tanks and am building stands for them (obligatory
woodworking reference). The "display" 29 gallon in the livingroom will be
various tetras. The 20H in my room will be forktail blue-eyes or a
related species, and the 20L will be dwarf neon rainbows. All tanks will
have some catfish for cleanup duties.

Don't forget the Pl*co...

I do have a 10 gallon with a variety of fish and some #$#@! pond snails,
and a 5.5 gallon with some female platys - the males are in the 10 gallon.
After 3 generations I thought it was time to force them into celibacy :-).

Inbreeding elicits strange effects after a few generations...
[POT] Just ask the current administration. g

I have a few planted aquaria. Reef tanks are my passion, but moving
in a few years kind of ruled those out...

This is the 75g in the Media Room. (That's the room with the 5 32"
televisions sitting in the floor as back-up to the aging projection
set - just can't bear to throw things away or sell them...)

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...lants_1_2l.jpg

Old picture - it's now a jungle in there... The fish are all hiding,
but it's primarily various tetra species. Some of the fish in there
are over 3.5 years old! The oldest is a small grey, wormlike loach
that was shipped by accident to a pet store. I grabbed it up
immediately, but alas, haven't been able to find a buddy for him.

The 29g in my office contains German blue ram cichlids, a few cory
catfish, and a fast growing pl*co. And a few neurotic long finned
zebra danios that SWMBO just HAD to have...ughh..

And to remain true to the original thread, it is lit by 4' T-8 5500k
fluorescent tubes. They run for 12 hours a day for two years, and are
then transferred to the shop, where they continue to function. I date
the bulbs when installed, and some of the shop bulbs have dates of Jan
2002. I haven't had to toss one yet - but it's getting close...

FWIW,

Greg G.

In article , Larry
Blanchard wrote:

I do have a 10 gallon with a variety of fish and some #$#@! pond snails,

The platys will take hard, even brachish water. Get yourself a
freshwater puffer fish and your pond snail problem will be taken care
of instanter.

--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows

Dave Balderstone said:

In article , Larry
Blanchard wrote:

I do have a 10 gallon with a variety of fish and some #$#@! pond snails,

The platys will take hard, even brachish water. Get yourself a
freshwater puffer fish and your pond snail problem will be taken care
of instanter.

Many species of loaches eat snails as well.
My grey worm loach keeps the numbers down considerably.
I actually _put_ snails into my tanks, but not the common, plant
eating, pond snail variety.

FWIW,

Greg G.

Be aware though that Plecos get large. I had one in a 20 gallon tank. When
he reached a foot long, I bought a 110 gallon tank and transferred him to
that. They can get up to 18 inches. If you have the room, they are the best
algae eaters. Since he was small (2.5 inches), he kept the 20 gallon tank
spotless. Now that he is in the 110 gallon, he does the same there in
addition to being fed daily. He is 2.5 years old now. They tell me that he
can live 20 years.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

Don't forget the Pl*co...

CW said:

Be aware though that Plecos get large. I had one in a 20 gallon tank. When
he reached a foot long, I bought a 110 gallon tank and transferred him to
that. They can get up to 18 inches. If you have the room, they are the best
algae eaters. Since he was small (2.5 inches), he kept the 20 gallon tank
spotless. Now that he is in the 110 gallon, he does the same there in
addition to being fed daily. He is 2.5 years old now. They tell me that he
can live 20 years.

Yes, I am unfortunately aware of this.
This particular species, _supposedly_ gets no larger than 12". They
were about 1.5" when I got them - one in each tank - and they are now
about 4" long. Wait... 5"... No, maybe 6"...

Still, it takes them a while to get that big, but their personality is
interesting and worth the effort. What to do when they're 12" long?
Eat 'em. g



"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .

Don't forget the Pl*co...

And now you've gone and done it - yours are doomed... g


Greg G.

Most pet shops around here, knowing that plecos get to large for most tanks,
will take them on trade in. Bring in your big one and get a little one for
it. They use the big ones as breeders. This, to me, is like trading in one
of my cats. Not going to happen but people do it.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
CW said:

Be aware though that Plecos get large. I had one in a 20 gallon tank.
When
he reached a foot long, I bought a 110 gallon tank and transferred him to
that. They can get up to 18 inches. If you have the room, they are the
best
algae eaters. Since he was small (2.5 inches), he kept the 20 gallon tank
spotless. Now that he is in the 110 gallon, he does the same there in
addition to being fed daily. He is 2.5 years old now. They tell me that
he
can live 20 years.

Yes, I am unfortunately aware of this.
This particular species, _supposedly_ gets no larger than 12". They
were about 1.5" when I got them - one in each tank - and they are now
about 4" long. Wait... 5"... No, maybe 6"...

Still, it takes them a while to get that big, but their personality is
interesting and worth the effort. What to do when they're 12" long?
Eat 'em. g



"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .

Don't forget the Pl*co...

And now you've gone and done it - yours are doomed... g


Greg G.

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:17:50 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

This is the 75g in the Media Room. (That's the room with the 5 32"
televisions sitting in the floor as back-up to the aging projection set -
just can't bear to throw things away or sell them...)

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...lants_1_2l.jpg

Very nice. My 10 gallon looks like that, on a much smaller scale of
course. And the larger tanks will too.

If anyone hasn't looked at Greg's tank picture yet, do so.

What's that plant in the foreground? Hair Grass or some kind of Micro Sword?

In article ,
Greg wrote:

Yes, I am unfortunately aware of this.
This particular species, _supposedly_ gets no larger than 12". They
were about 1.5" when I got them - one in each tank - and they are now
about 4" long. Wait... 5"... No, maybe 6"...

Still, it takes them a while to get that big, but their personality is
interesting and worth the effort. What to do when they're 12" long?
Eat 'em. g

My daughter's 10 gallon tank has a Bushy Nose Pleco that will supposedly
stay pretty small - relatively speaking:

http://www.aquariumfish.net/catalog_pages/scavengers/plecostomus.htm
Bushy Nose Plecos., like the one shown above, rarely grow longer than 5", and
they are very good aquarium fish. We recommend them for most aquariums.
Whereas, the regular Plecostomus, which is shown in the video at the top of
this page, can grow to be over 30" long and become too big for most
aquariums.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
__________

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:16:52 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

You might want to think about the screw-ins. You are free to do as you
please, of course, but they are not rated for enclosed operation. The
cheap-ass resistor ballasts get mighty warm in an enclosed space, and
their light output it not optimal for this application. That twisted,
contorted bulb is not very aquarium friendly.

Ah-Ha! You haven't seen the ones All-Glass sells. They're 10 watt,
6500K, and two U-shaped tubes like some of the compact fluorescents. I've
got two of them on my 10 gallon jungle. They put out a lot less heat than
the incandescents they replaced.

The All-Glass incandescent hood had no vents for some strange reason, even
though their 5.5 gallon hood did. So I drilled a few holes in the top for
ventilation.

BTW, the All-Glass bulbs go for around $7.95. The same bulb is available
in the fish department of Walmart for, IIRC, $4.95.

Larry Blanchard said:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:17:50 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

This is the 75g in the Media Room. (That's the room with the 5 32"
televisions sitting in the floor as back-up to the aging projection set -
just can't bear to throw things away or sell them...)

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...lants_1_2l.jpg

Very nice. My 10 gallon looks like that, on a much smaller scale of
course. And the larger tanks will too.

If anyone hasn't looked at Greg's tank picture yet, do so.

Thanks. It was a hard road to this point. I bought a plant at
PetSmart years ago that had a peculiar type of thread algae on it. It
took over the tank and everything in it. It took over our pond. It
had the most horrific odor - I mean it staaaannnkkk.
No amount of 'proper fertilization' or algae eaters would clear it.
Finally got sick of it and bleached the whole mess - plants and all.
Set it back up with the bleached plants and gravel, and it's been
smooth sailing ever since. The normal algae are kept in check by
tight control of nutrients. I mix my own NKP and trace fertilizers.

And of course, built the stands and hoods. [OnTopic] g


Greg G.

Bill Stock said:

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:17:50 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

This is the 75g in the Media Room. (That's the room with the 5 32"
televisions sitting in the floor as back-up to the aging projection set -
just can't bear to throw things away or sell them...)

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoc...lants_1_2l.jpg

Very nice. My 10 gallon looks like that, on a much smaller scale of
course. And the larger tanks will too.

If anyone hasn't looked at Greg's tank picture yet, do so.

What's that plant in the foreground? Hair Grass or some kind of Micro Sword?

It's a common micro sword - Echinodorus tennellus,
The true hair grasses demand too much light for my meager budget.

The plant content includes:

Narrow Leaf Chain Sword (Echinodorus tennellus)
Water Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis)
Floating Hornwort (Ceratophyllum demersum).
Anubias afzelli
Anubias coffea
Red Melon Sword (Echinodorus barthii)
Amazon Sword (Echinodorus bleheri)
Cryptocoryne lutea
and other Cryptocoryne sp.
There is a bit of loosestrife and bacopa as well.



Greg G.

Larry Blanchard said:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:05:05 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

The platys will take hard, even brachish water. Get yourself a freshwater
puffer fish and your pond snail problem will be taken care of instanter.

Many species of loaches eat snails as well. My grey worm loach keeps the
numbers down considerably. I actually _put_ snails into my tanks, but not
the common, plant eating, pond snail variety.

Are you sure this isn't the aquarium newsgroup? grin

It's been the political, phishing, troll newsgroup, so what the hey...

Yep, I bought some clown loaches which, like the suggested pleco, will
outgrow my tanks eventually. The biggest I'll ever have room for is an
18"x36", which is either a 50 or a 55, I forget.

The kuhlii loaches stay much smaller, and are pretty interesting.
They mass up in groups, being social, and do a number on small snails.
(If you like squirmy fish that look like eels...)

I've found it hard to find interesting fish these days. All the
independents have gone out of business, and the Chain's carry nothing
but the same-old-crap. When I was a kid, there was a really cool
store in Lindburg that carried an unbelievable variety of stock.

But the city got 100 times bigger, and the selection got 100 times
smaller. Go figure - it's the same with restaurants and just about
everything else. The BORGs are consuming everything non-mainstream.



Greg G.

In article , Greg G.
wrote:

I've found it hard to find interesting fish these days. All the
independents have gone out of business, and the Chain's carry nothing
but the same-old-crap. When I was a kid, there was a really cool
store in Lindburg that carried an unbelievable variety of stock.

Oh, you are so right.

I was a kid in Winnipeg when I got into the hobby (I'm 46 now) and
there was a guy who sold out of his basement... all the rare fish you
read about in the mags. Annual killies, bettas that weren't splendens,
I could go on and on.

The main shop brought in live brine shrimp from San Fransisco Bay every
Tuesday. Live tubifex worms, daphnia... They had a breeding pair of
oscars that were 12" in a 250 gallon tank at the back of the shop and
every oscar you bought from them were from that pair.

I'd love to get some of the Aphyosemion species I used to raise...
http://web.telia.com/~u31510320/Killigallery.html

I remember breaking down a 5 gal tank that I had a pair in after they
died. Set it up about 18 months later and in two days had a tank full
of fry... The eggs were surviving the dry season in the sand.

--
"I'm a man, but I can change... If I have to... I guess." -- Red Green

Dave Balderstone said:

In article , Greg G.
wrote:

I've found it hard to find interesting fish these days. All the
independents have gone out of business, and the Chain's carry nothing
but the same-old-crap. When I was a kid, there was a really cool
store in Lindburg that carried an unbelievable variety of stock.

Oh, you are so right.

I was a kid in Winnipeg when I got into the hobby (I'm 46 now) and
there was a guy who sold out of his basement... all the rare fish you
read about in the mags. Annual killies, bettas that weren't splendens,
I could go on and on.

I kept breeding pairs of Egyptian Mouthbreeders, Kribensis, miniature
seahorses, etc. as a kid (I've got two years on you) and though that
all this globalization would enhance the hobby. Not from what I see.
I recently tried to find a pair of mouthbreeders, but had no luck.
Haplochromis multicolor - oh, wait, they've renamed 'em again.
Pseudocrenilabrus multicolor.
Could be due to this accident...
http://www.petting-zoo.net/~deadbeef/archive/106.html

The main shop brought in live brine shrimp from San Fransisco Bay every
Tuesday. Live tubifex worms, daphnia... They had a breeding pair of
oscars that were 12" in a 250 gallon tank at the back of the shop and
every oscar you bought from them were from that pair.

Had a guy here that bred Cichlasoma meeki as well as Oscars.
Splashing and wrestling, jaw to jaw, and occationally one would flop
out onto the floor. They would really go at it - and then they would
care for the fry like gentle little liberals. g

I'd love to get some of the Aphyosemion species I used to raise...
http://web.telia.com/~u31510320/Killigallery.html

I remember breaking down a 5 gal tank that I had a pair in after they
died. Set it up about 18 months later and in two days had a tank full
of fry... The eggs were surviving the dry season in the sand.

Yeah, they're really cool like that. Like artema - or sea monkeys -
they burst forth from a mistakenly barren void.
http://www.hellskitchen.org/gdt/arch.../monkeys.shtml

I remember first reading about killifish in an old Axelrod rag.
It was a treat when they included an actual color photograph... g



Greg G.

Larry Blanchard said:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:18:13 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

It's a common micro sword - Echinodorus tennellus, The true hair grasses
demand too much light for my meager budget.

Do you harvest handfuls of the stuff every few months? I do :-).

I have a 32 gallon trash can at this very moment that is half full of
it and other plants. I was selling the pulls on eBay for a while,
just to get rid of it, but since I'm not selling Tektronix scopes at
this time, it was too much trouble. Want some?

And I'm glad to hear it doesn't need a lot of light. Maybe I'll try some
in a 20 with just a single 15 watt fluorescent.

I've got a 20 long that's very old (cost me $2 at a garage sale) and none
of the commercial hoods/tops fit it. I'm going to build a top
(woodworking reference) using four waterproof incandescent sockets and put
the screw-in fluroescents in it. 60 watts for 20 gallons = lots of red
plants :-).

You might want to think about the screw-ins. You are free to do as
you please, of course, but they are not rated for enclosed operation.
The cheap-ass resistor ballasts get mighty warm in an enclosed space,
and their light output it not optimal for this application. That
twisted, contorted bulb is not very aquarium friendly. Remember that
light striking the water's surface must do so within a certain range,
or it bounces off. Also, I've found it difficult to find bulbs with
the right color temperature - they range from 2700k to 3200k. Most
are warm white, some are cool white, but none are tri-spectrum and
I've never seen a 5000k screw-in. They heat the aquarium
substantially without forced or convection ventilation..

I don't remember off-hand what the length of a 20L is, but common
F20T12s should fit, as I recall. (24") BigAls has a selection of T-8
bulbs in unusual lengths. They are German made and sold by ZooMed.
The only place I could get 5500k 30" T-8 bulbs to fit my 29g.
I started with 4 bulbs and it was WAAAYYY too bright, I subsequently
re-engineered for two tubes and everything is now happy. Even the
chain swords became dwarfed and flattened - hated the excessive light.
The fish weren't too fond of it either. Exceeding 10,000 lumens over
a 29g made them rather jumpy...

I do build my own hoods, however, and bend my own reflectors.
They are computer designed by me for aquarium use - 'cause the stuff
that is sold for the aquarium market is such crap.

If you are interested, here are a couple of links to my reflector
designs for T-8s and T-12s - complete with photon videos. g

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/T-8DualReflector.jpg
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/T-8DualReflector.mpg

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/T-12Reflector.jpg
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/T-12Reflector.mpg

FWIW,


Greg G.

Larry Blanchard said:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:27:54 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

I've found it hard to find interesting fish these days. All the
independents have gone out of business, and the Chain's carry nothing
but the same-old-crap. When I was a kid, there was a really cool store
in Lindburg that carried an unbelievable variety of stock.

We've still got at least 3 here in Spokane. One specializes in sal****er
fish, so I don't go there. Another has a good selection of plants, but is
highly opinionated, so I go there only when necessary.

Ooohh - I love reef tanks.
My pocketbook hates them, however...

http://www.thevideodoc.com/preefs1.htm

http://www.thevideodoc.com/preefs5.htm


The third usually has a good selection of freshwater fish, and sometimes
live blackworms, but no live plants. They got in a new shipment for the
big shopping weekend and I went down to see them. I bought some panda
cories, but the interesting thing was a tank with 3 bichers in it.

Alas, we have NO worthy independent dealers left in Atlanta, GA.
Just PetSmart, and PetSupermarket. The help wouldn't know a brine
shrimp from a rock of crack cocaine. One shop in downtown Buckhead
yuppie-land has a few interesting things, but the prices will scare
you out of your skin.

The smaller cities in Florida still had good dealers, but I don't live
there anymore. Reef stuff, in particular, was considerably cheaper.

I'd read about them but never seen them before. Supposedly they've been
around since the Jurassic. Pectoral fins that look like fingers,
protruding nostrils, lungs, and some really strange spiky fins on an
eel-shaped body. Altogether a very ugly fish, but I wish I had room for
one :-).

I've not seen them before, but there are all kinds of neato,
creepy-crawly things in the oceans, lakes, rivers of the world. But
if we continue to steward our world as we have in the past, the only
remaining examples of much of this stuff will be in captivity. :-\

Heck, I'm worried that we're going to run out of affordable wood
before I'm done...

FWIW,

Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Larry Blanchard said:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:18:13 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

It's a common micro sword - Echinodorus tennellus, The true hair grasses
demand too much light for my meager budget.

Do you harvest handfuls of the stuff every few months? I do :-).

I have a 32 gallon trash can at this very moment that is half full of
it and other plants. I was selling the pulls on eBay for a while,
just to get rid of it, but since I'm not selling Tektronix scopes at
this time, it was too much trouble. Want some?

Damn, You guys giving away plants are always in the US. Phyto certificates
and all that.

And I'm glad to hear it doesn't need a lot of light. Maybe I'll try some
in a 20 with just a single 15 watt fluorescent.

I've got a 20 long that's very old (cost me $2 at a garage sale) and none
of the commercial hoods/tops fit it. I'm going to build a top
(woodworking reference) using four waterproof incandescent sockets and put
the screw-in fluroescents in it. 60 watts for 20 gallons = lots of red
plants :-).

You might want to think about the screw-ins. You are free to do as
you please, of course, but they are not rated for enclosed operation.
The cheap-ass resistor ballasts get mighty warm in an enclosed space,
and their light output it not optimal for this application. That
twisted, contorted bulb is not very aquarium friendly. Remember that
light striking the water's surface must do so within a certain range,
or it bounces off. Also, I've found it difficult to find bulbs with
the right color temperature - they range from 2700k to 3200k. Most
are warm white, some are cool white, but none are tri-spectrum and
I've never seen a 5000k screw-in. They heat the aquarium
substantially without forced or convection ventilation..

I don't remember off-hand what the length of a 20L is, but common
F20T12s should fit, as I recall. (24") BigAls has a selection of T-8
bulbs in unusual lengths. They are German made and sold by ZooMed.
The only place I could get 5500k 30" T-8 bulbs to fit my 29g.
I started with 4 bulbs and it was WAAAYYY too bright, I subsequently
re-engineered for two tubes and everything is now happy. Even the
chain swords became dwarfed and flattened - hated the excessive light.
The fish weren't too fond of it either. Exceeding 10,000 lumens over
a 29g made them rather jumpy...

I just bought a 72W fixture (2x36) for my 10 gallon, as the 2x13 wasn't
doing it. I really wanted something around 50W, but there weren't any good
options. Besides, I already had the 36W bulbs from a previous upgrade. I
was only planning on running the second bulb for a few hours. But your
experience has me thinking this will be too much for the Otos, even on a
part time basis.


I do build my own hoods, however, and bend my own reflectors.
They are computer designed by me for aquarium use - 'cause the stuff
that is sold for the aquarium market is such crap.

If you are interested, here are a couple of links to my reflector
designs for T-8s and T-12s - complete with photon videos. g

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/T-8DualReflector.jpg
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/T-8DualReflector.mpg

http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/T-12Reflector.jpg
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Media/T-12Reflector.mpg

FWIW,


Greg G.

Bill Stock said:

"Greg G." wrote in message
.. .

I have a 32 gallon trash can at this very moment that is half full of
it and other plants. I was selling the pulls on eBay for a while,
just to get rid of it, but since I'm not selling Tektronix scopes at
this time, it was too much trouble. Want some?

Damn, You guys giving away plants are always in the US. Phyto certificates
and all that.

Let's see - you're in/near Mississauga, ON, Canada?
I don't know what the Canadian's require to import plant material, but
it could be sent as a "gift" to avoid 'some' border scrutiny.
Or maybe not... g I'd hate to have the Mounties show up at my door.

Generally, within the US, only states with temperate climates have
restrictions on shipping aquarium plant material. CA, FL,TX, etc.
I don't think you guys in the Great White North qualify as temperate.
LMAO...

I don't remember off-hand what the length of a 20L is, but common
F20T12s should fit, as I recall. (24") BigAls has a selection of T-8
bulbs in unusual lengths. They are German made and sold by ZooMed.
The only place I could get 5500k 30" T-8 bulbs to fit my 29g.
I started with 4 bulbs and it was WAAAYYY too bright, I subsequently
re-engineered for two tubes and everything is now happy. Even the
chain swords became dwarfed and flattened - hated the excessive light.
The fish weren't too fond of it either. Exceeding 10,000 lumens over
a 29g made them rather jumpy...

I just bought a 72W fixture (2x36) for my 10 gallon, as the 2x13 wasn't
doing it. I really wanted something around 50W, but there weren't any good
options. Besides, I already had the 36W bulbs from a previous upgrade. I
was only planning on running the second bulb for a few hours. But your
experience has me thinking this will be too much for the Otos, even on a
part time basis.

I assume you're talking Compact Fluorescent's - very bright and pretty
pricey... As for the 2x13 CF, were the lamps of a proper spectrum?
Is your Fertilization Regime/Traces correct? There are so many
variables it would be hard to place a finger on any one component, but
72W of CF sounds like a whole LOT 'o-light on a 10G. g

FWIW,

Greg G.

In article ,
Larry Blanchard wrote:

We've still got at least 3 here in Spokane. One specializes in sal****er
fish, so I don't go there. Another has a good selection of plants, but is
highly opinionated, so I go there only when necessary.

I feel the need to toot our one local (and only) pet shop's horn. For a
town of 19,500, it's quite unusual - hell, sounds like for a town the
size of Atlanta, it'd be quite unusual.

Critter Cabana:
http://www.crittercabana.com/

Now, I don't know if their fish are unusual or not (salt and fresh) but
they get some of the strangest 4-legged animals: walleroos; two-toed
sloth; banded armadillo; and an African fox (can't recall the name at
the moment). They've also got quite a cross section of the cold-blooded
sort -- yech.

They've been in business for a couple years now, so maybe it's going to
go for awhile.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
__________

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05

Larry Blanchard said:

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:16:52 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

You might want to think about the screw-ins. You are free to do as you
please, of course, but they are not rated for enclosed operation. The
cheap-ass resistor ballasts get mighty warm in an enclosed space, and
their light output it not optimal for this application. That twisted,
contorted bulb is not very aquarium friendly.

Ah-Ha! You haven't seen the ones All-Glass sells. They're 10 watt,
6500K, and two U-shaped tubes like some of the compact fluorescents. I've
got two of them on my 10 gallon jungle. They put out a lot less heat than
the incandescents they replaced.

Actually, no, I haven't seen them. I don't shop at Wal-Mart if I can
help it. But I will look for them in the future. Glad to know the
market is finally adapting. Thanks for the heads up.
I though you were talking about the common replacement bulbs.

The All-Glass incandescent hood had no vents for some strange reason, even
though their 5.5 gallon hood did. So I drilled a few holes in the top for
ventilation.

Always a good thing. Operating temperature has an effect on tube
longevity. So much so that apertured reflectors are used in some
commercial fixtures - for those who can afford them. !?

BTW, the All-Glass bulbs go for around $7.95. The same bulb is available
in the fish department of Walmart for, IIRC, $4.95.

Last time I was in a Wal-Mart Super Center around here, they had about
1 side of a small 15 foot aisle dedicated to fish stuff - not much to
speak of. Don't tell me, you on the West Coast. sigh


Greg G.