On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:32:43 GMT, "J.C." wrote:

You guys should get some training in acting like grownups instead of using
everything you can to start a childish argument.

Thanks, mom. More name calling is just what was needed to whip
everyone back in line.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

I hope like hell I'm reading it wrong, but it appears at this point that
these highly touted hereabouts "emergency managers" seem singularly
ill-equipped and ill-prepared to handle this emergency.

(Seems reasonable to expect that much of the work of these supposedly highly
trained "emergency managers" would have been spent in "lining up their
ducks", which seems to be their singularly most important function, before
the fact.)

I am beginning to suspect that, just like the last time with many of those
with the attitude that only they know what's best for us, a lot of money has
been wasted on this supposed "emergency management" leadership.

My partners in two businesses and I decided yesterday to open up any spare
rooms we have in our homes here in Houston, and in one case a summer home,
to refugees through a local church and synagogue jointly handling the
listings. SWMBO, and couple of neighbors spent the morning gathering clothes
and are heading to a Red Cross distribution point as I speak.

ITMT, if any of you see an opportunity, besides the preaching, to pitch in
and do something similar, it may make just as big an impact with the
displaced as what the "professionals" seem to have been able to accomplish
in many respects.

.... and instead of shooting looters, it would probably be more productive
over the long haul to aim at the politicians who don't seem to miss an
opportunity to get their mugs on TV.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

It goes to credibility.

"Lee DeRaud" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 03:09:40 GMT, "CW" wrote:

It's becomming very clear that LRod has a better understanding of the
overall picture.

Well, unless we're running an election for "Chief Usenet Disaster
Preparedness ******", does it *matter*?

Lee

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:06:08 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

I hope like hell I'm reading it wrong, but it appears at this point that
these highly touted hereabouts "emergency managers" seem singularly
ill-equipped and ill-prepared to handle this emergency.

Well put. What I can't believe is that are highly praised Homeland
Security had no plan in effect to deal with an attack on the dike
system of one of the most important ports in the U.S.
The Governor and Mayor need to resign as well. There is no leadership
in that state.Its just sad, how and the hell could they not have a
communication system set up to handel no power for at least a week.
Its shame
My wife and I are going to open up are home to a single mother with a
child. And I would encourage anyone who can help this way to do it. I
feel bad for everyone but most important is the poor kids.

It's amazing how fast Houston could put something together.

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:06:08 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

I hope like hell I'm reading it wrong, but it appears at this point that
these highly touted hereabouts "emergency managers" seem singularly
ill-equipped and ill-prepared to handle this emergency.

(Seems reasonable to expect that much of the work of these supposedly highly
trained "emergency managers" would have been spent in "lining up their
ducks", which seems to be their singularly most important function, before
the fact.)


While it seems that things are moving slowly, this is a disaster of
proportions comparable to the San Franscisco earthquake and the Chicago
fire. In all fairness I'm not sure how much could have been prepared for a
disaster of this magnitude.

I am beginning to suspect that, just like the last time with many of those
with the attitude that only they know what's best for us, a lot of money has
been wasted on this supposed "emergency management" leadership.


I am surprised it has taken so long for the National Guard to show up.
It is also, however, quite disappointing to see the apparent lack of
motivation by some of those affected by the disaster to take steps to help
themselves out of the situation rather than help themselves to unguarded
electronic equipment. And then to start shooting at the rescue choppers?
What are these people thinking?


My partners in two businesses and I decided yesterday to open up any spare
rooms we have in our homes here in Houston, and in one case a summer home,
to refugees through a local church and synagogue jointly handling the
listings. SWMBO, and couple of neighbors spent the morning gathering clothes
and are heading to a Red Cross distribution point as I speak.


Good for you.

ITMT, if any of you see an opportunity, besides the preaching, to pitch in
and do something similar, it may make just as big an impact with the
displaced as what the "professionals" seem to have been able to accomplish
in many respects.


A donation through our church body (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod)
is going out this weekend; it will be matched $1 for $2 by an associated
fraternal benefit organization (Thrivent). At this time, it appears that
monetary donations may be one of the best ways for those of us far removed
from that area to help.




... and instead of shooting looters, it would probably be more productive
over the long haul to aim at the politicians who don't seem to miss an
opportunity to get their mugs on TV.

Well, while open season on politicians (of the other persuasion of course
-- whatever persuasion you happen to be) is sometimes an appealing thought,
I now understand why, in times past, there was no quarter given to looters.
By either ignoring or not responding with force earlier, the people who
should be doing work helping rescue victims are now having to act like
guards and watchmen -- a tragic waste of time and potential cause of
additional loss of life by innocent civilians because the police can't be
performing rescues of those trapped in the various areas of the city. I
would not be surprised if "shoot to kill" orders aren't given in the not
too distant future if the anarchy being reported continues. Hopefully this
is a case of the media latching on to the bad and overlooking all the good
happening.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

I am surprised it has taken so long for the National Guard to show up.
It is also, however, quite disappointing to see the apparent lack of
motivation by some of those affected by the disaster to take steps to help
themselves out of the situation rather than help themselves to unguarded
electronic equipment. And then to start shooting at the rescue
choppers?
What are these people thinking?


Shouldn't Jesse Jackson be meeting with Mother Nature about now?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

A donation through our church body (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran
Synod)
is going out this weekend; it will be matched $1 for $2 by an associated
fraternal benefit organization (Thrivent). At this time, it appears that
monetary donations may be one of the best ways for those of us far removed
from that area to help.

Good on you ... and you are correct about monetary assistance being sorely
needed. For anyone who hasn't heard, the American Red Cross is taking
donations at:

1-800 HELP NOW.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

wrote in message

It's amazing how fast Houston could put something together.

The American Red Cross has been singularly instrumental in that. Their
volunteers have shown up from as far away as Hawaii.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

I find it pretty sad that anybody would be pulled off rescue efforts to
protect material objects instead of saving life. It's a sad day in this
world that we are more worried about a TV more then somebodies life.

Roy

"ROYNEU" wrote in message

I find it pretty sad that anybody would be pulled off rescue efforts to
protect material objects instead of saving life. It's a sad day in this
world that we are more worried about a TV more then somebodies life.

Hey Roy, in this case I don't think it was that as much as the shooting at
rescue workers... kinda hard to rescue with bullets flying.

According to one of my relatives close by, there was a rescue effort
consisting of a flotilla of over one hundred "Bubba's in bass boats"
scheduled for yesterday morning (and welcomed by the "authorities", LRod),
who couldn't do what they came for because of that.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

While it seems that things are moving slowly, this is a disaster of
proportions comparable to the San Franscisco earthquake and the Chicago
fire. In all fairness I'm not sure how much could have been prepared for
a
disaster of this magnitude.

I could agree with that, except for the fact that the "emergency managers"
kept predicting, correctly as it turns out, just how bad it was going to be
for three days beforehand ... didn't they believe their own damn
predictions?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

"ROYNEU" wrote in message
oups.com...
I find it pretty sad that anybody would be pulled off rescue efforts to
protect material objects instead of saving life. It's a sad day in this
world that we are more worried about a TV more then somebodies life.


Didn't really pay attention to that report did you? How about - they were
pulled off of search and rescue to attempt to restore order in the face of
shootings, rapes, fires, explosions and yes - looting. Do you really
believe all of the looting that's going on down there is in the name of
"necessities" and that it's a benign environment? Better to consider it a
sad note that 4 days into this disaster, our highly funded disaster
preparedness organizations such as FEMA have fumbled so badly with this
whole thing. Not to mention that the state and local authorities had no
real plan to deal with what was a guaranteed eventuality in their area.

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 06:40:05 -0500, Swingman wrote:
wrote in message

It's amazing how fast Houston could put something together.

The American Red Cross has been singularly instrumental in that. Their
volunteers have shown up from as far away as Hawaii.

Yeah, funny how much easier it is to get your **** together, when you
have power, water, and all that stuff. Face it - people are going to
bitch about the response no matter what. Some of it is legitimate
criticism, some of it is just people making noise instead of doing
something.

On 2 Sep 2005 04:55:14 -0700, "ROYNEU" wrote:

I find it pretty sad that anybody would be pulled off rescue efforts to
protect material objects instead of saving life. It's a sad day in this
world that we are more worried about a TV more then somebodies life.

Roy

I don't think it it the material objects' protection so much as the
people doing the looting are also engaging in other acts of violence
(several murders, multiple rapes every night in the SuperDome, gangs
roaming the streets stealing from people at gun-point, stealing the buses
that are coming to evacuate people) That's what is causing the police to
have to be pulled off of rescue efforts for law enforcement -- people are
getting hurt and killed by thugs.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

wrote:

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:06:08 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

I hope like hell I'm reading it wrong, but it appears at this point that
these highly touted hereabouts "emergency managers" seem singularly
ill-equipped and ill-prepared to handle this emergency.

Well put. What I can't believe is that are highly praised Homeland
Security had no plan in effect to deal with an attack on the dike
system of one of the most important ports in the U.S.
The Governor and Mayor need to resign as well. There is no leadership
in that state.Its just sad, how and the hell could they not have a
communication system set up to handel no power for at least a week.
Its shame
My wife and I are going to open up are home to a single mother with a
child. And I would encourage anyone who can help this way to do it. I
feel bad for everyone but most important is the poor kids.

It's amazing how fast Houston could put something together.

I suspect that they (Houston) started immediately and so it hasn't been
all that quick. I also suspect they had plans already in place for the
use in the event of a direct hit in their own city.

As for the Monday-morning q-b'ing over lack of preparedness, the
magnitude of the result is simply overwhelming all facilities available
and the same people would be ridiculing the same agencies for overkill
when being told what funding was being used for such massive
preparations prior to the event. I doubt seriously you could have
envisioned any such an effect and had effective plans in place prior
to now.

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

As for the Monday-morning q-b'ing over lack of preparedness, the
magnitude of the result is simply overwhelming all facilities available
and the same people would be ridiculing the same agencies for overkill
when being told what funding was being used for such massive
preparations prior to the event. I doubt seriously you could have
envisioned any such an effect and had effective plans in place prior
to now.

Sorry, as I've already stated, their predictions three days out turned out
to be very accurate ... IMO, the _leadership_ does get paid to have "the
strength of their predictions", so to speak.

I have no problem whatsoever in criticizing what was an obvious lack of
_leadership_, particularly with regard to 'command and control' issues, at
both local and Federal level. I also predict you will hear a lot more in
that regard when the chips finally fall.

On a brighter note ... just delivered another truck load of
blankets/towels/books/games and clothes, compliments of more of my neighbors
who filled up the bed for the second time in two days. The Methodist church
is handling the former, the next door Baptist church the latter ... nice to
put aside the red state/blue state thing, and all the other divisive issues,
and see everyone dividing up the work and getting it done.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

Swingman wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

As for the Monday-morning q-b'ing over lack of preparedness, the
magnitude of the result is simply overwhelming all facilities available
and the same people would be ridiculing the same agencies for overkill
when being told what funding was being used for such massive
preparations prior to the event. I doubt seriously you could have
envisioned any such an effect and had effective plans in place prior
to now.

Sorry, as I've already stated, their predictions three days out turned out
to be very accurate ... IMO, the _leadership_ does get paid to have "the
strength of their predictions", so to speak.


I have no problem whatsoever in criticizing what was an obvious lack of
_leadership_, particularly with regard to 'command and control' issues, at
both local and Federal level. I also predict you will hear a lot more in
that regard when the chips finally fall.

I still think it highly unlikely anybody on this planet would have
been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place
to cope given the geography of the area.

It's all well and good to reevaluate and update procedures for the
future but to harp on it now is simply beating on the dead horse.

Where, for example, would they have found and how could they have gotten
a sufficient number of seats to move 50,000 people w/o transportation to
somewhere else (and where would that somewhere else be)? At 100/bus, it
would be 500 buses at least. And, how would you suggest they could have
gotten all of those people to even go to get on the buses before the
storm?

It's wishful thinking and some things could be going better, but most
while tragic is almost inevitable in the short term.

The only thing I think that really could have been done that doesn't
seem to have happened is much more massive air drops of water and food
to the stranded.

On a brighter note ... just delivered another truck load of
blankets/towels/books/games and clothes, compliments of more of my neighbors
who filled up the bed for the second time in two days. The Methodist church
is handling the former, the next door Baptist church the latter ... nice to
put aside the red state/blue state thing, and all the other divisive issues,
and see everyone dividing up the work and getting it done.

That's good...we Methodists here are collecting and have sent five
semi-loads of water and MRE-type food--left yesterday to head straight
through to the Baton Rouge area and coordinated w/ another Methodist
Church there.

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

I have no problem whatsoever in criticizing what was an obvious lack of
_leadership_, particularly with regard to 'command and control' issues,
at
both local and Federal level. I also predict you will hear a lot more in
that regard when the chips finally fall.

I still think it highly unlikely anybody on this planet would have
been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place
to cope given the geography of the area.

What? The HISTORY of the Gulf Coast, and the KNOWN effects of a huricane
(wind and water) on same, should give even the **** poorest of the
leadership a clue.

It's all well and good to reevaluate and update procedures for the
future but to harp on it now is simply beating on the dead horse.

... beat that dead horse now, so that you can keep the next one alive.

Where, for example, would they have found and how could they have gotten
a sufficient number of seats to move 50,000 people w/o transportation to
somewhere else (and where would that somewhere else be)? At 100/bus, it
would be 500 buses at least. And, how would you suggest they could have
gotten all of those people to even go to get on the buses before the
storm?

It's wishful thinking and some things could be going better, but most
while tragic is almost inevitable in the short term.

The only thing I think that really could have been done that doesn't
seem to have happened is much more massive air drops of water and food
to the stranded.

READ again what I said ... granted, there are some things you can't do
anything about, but there is simply NO excuse to NOT have 'command and
control' worked out in advance when you know PRECISELY the nature of what
you have to deal with (see first above).

I can tell you, firsthand, that single, most important aspect is what gets
most combat units through tough times, _without_ them having the advantage
of knowing in advance what's going to be thrown at them.

That aspect alone, being able to direct/ and manage efforts/rescue efforts
more effectively, with adequate commincations, would have helped immensely
in the "emergency management" of this latest disaster.

There is no doubt this was lacking, that it was a leadership problem, and
there is simply NO excuse for that not being in place at both local and
Federal level.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:06:21 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

As for the Monday-morning q-b'ing over lack of preparedness, the
magnitude of the result is simply overwhelming all facilities available
and the same people would be ridiculing the same agencies for overkill
when being told what funding was being used for such massive
preparations prior to the event. I doubt seriously you could have
envisioned any such an effect and had effective plans in place prior
to now.

Same thing happened in NYC on 9/11. It wouldn't have mattered if
they'd been able to predict the attacks and had all the fire trucks
and police lined up waiting for it. The magnitude of two huge
buildings coming down like that was beyond anyone's capacity to
comprehend, much less plan for, and even less to be able to respond
adequately to.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"LRod" wrote in message


Same thing happened in NYC on 9/11. It wouldn't have mattered if
they'd been able to predict the attacks and had all the fire trucks
and police lined up waiting for it. The magnitude of two huge
buildings coming down like that was beyond anyone's capacity to
comprehend, much less plan for, and even less to be able to respond
adequately to.

Agreed. Nonetheless, Rudy G could give the mayor of NO some lessons in
leadership, including having a "command and control" infrastructure in
place, the lack thereof being largely responsible for much of the initial
'confusion' (a nicer term for the ugliness that really happened).

That that type of forethought has been within the realm of
leadership/planners since WWII is inarguable.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

You could be right. I couldn't tell if Mark and/or Juanita was refering
to the shooting at rescue workers or if it was the case where the Gov.
pulled the police out of the rescue work night before last to stop the
looters in general.

Let them have the TV's etc. there will be no power to plug it into
anyway. Beside they will be selling their hide for a drink of water
pretty soon.

Roy

Swingman wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

I have no problem whatsoever in criticizing what was an obvious lack of
_leadership_, particularly with regard to 'command and control' issues,
at
both local and Federal level. I also predict you will hear a lot more in
that regard when the chips finally fall.

I still think it highly unlikely anybody on this planet would have
been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place
to cope given the geography of the area.

What? The HISTORY of the Gulf Coast, and the KNOWN effects of a huricane
(wind and water) on same, should give even the **** poorest of the
leadership a clue.

....

I knew after I sent it I didn't word what I meant well...it's one thing
to know/predict it's yet another to really envision what actually
occurs. I think there's a conceptual leap there virtually impossible to
grasp as it is so far beyond the expected. Just as the complete
destruction of the areas hit by the Tsunami was known...

And, yes, I'll agree there has been apparent slow response--why and who
I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does anything
constructive at this point...

Swingman wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message

Same thing happened in NYC on 9/11. It wouldn't have mattered if
they'd been able to predict the attacks and had all the fire trucks
and police lined up waiting for it. The magnitude of two huge
buildings coming down like that was beyond anyone's capacity to
comprehend, much less plan for, and even less to be able to respond
adequately to.

Agreed. Nonetheless, Rudy G could give the mayor of NO some lessons in
leadership, including having a "command and control" infrastructure in
place, the lack thereof being largely responsible for much of the initial
'confusion' (a nicer term for the ugliness that really happened).

That that type of forethought has been within the realm of
leadership/planners since WWII is inarguable.

Much is to be laid at the feet of past administrations in NO not the
current I suspect. I don't believe the resources of NO spent on such
things as compared to what NYC has historically done comes even close,
even on a per capita basis. In that respect, NYC is probably head and
shoulders above any other metro area in the world.

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does anything
constructive at this point...

I brought it up merely as a preface to predicting that it will produce
something constructive ... if it doesn't, we need to look elsewhere for
leadership in these times, from the top on down.

And I am not kidding when I say someone of the leadership caliber of Rudy G
and what he did in NY during those times ... and I have no earthly idea of
his political persuasion, nor do I give a rat's ass.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

Swingman wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does anything
constructive at this point...

I brought it up merely as a preface to predicting that it will produce
something constructive ... if it doesn't, we need to look elsewhere for
leadership in these times, from the top on down.

And I am not kidding when I say someone of the leadership caliber of Rudy G
and what he did in NY during those times ... and I have no earthly idea of
his political persuasion, nor do I give a rat's ass.


And what I'm saying is that while I agree he appears to be a damn smart
cookie (and I don't recall for sure his persuasion either, but I think
he's a Red Stater???) I think he had far more resources to call upon
than does the State of LA or the City of NO. And, I don't think he had
a whole lot to do with that having been in place before he ever showed
up (or was born, even)...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does anything
constructive at this point...

I brought it up merely as a preface to predicting that it will produce
something constructive ... if it doesn't, we need to look elsewhere for
leadership in these times, from the top on down.

And I am not kidding when I say someone of the leadership caliber of
Rudy G
and what he did in NY during those times ... and I have no earthly idea
of
his political persuasion, nor do I give a rat's ass.


And what I'm saying is that while I agree he appears to be a damn smart
cookie (and I don't recall for sure his persuasion either, but I think
he's a Red Stater???) I think he had far more resources to call upon
than does the State of LA or the City of NO. And, I don't think he had
a whole lot to do with that having been in place before he ever showed
up (or was born, even)...

You may be right, but thus far I've either been damn lucky, or a pretty good
judge of character based on words and actions, even from afar.

My basis of respect for Rudy G is the same I had as the white, Southern boy
CO of a combat unit in SE Asia, for my black, Northerner 1st Sgt.

He was a _man_ in the finest sense of the word, with a world of uncommon
sense, who did his job of keeping those below (and above) him alive in a
calm, competent manner that you will never forget, and that you will
recognize instantly the minute you see it again.

(Bless your peapicking heart, Top ... I hope happiness dogs your days,
wherever you are.)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

Nah, protecting property is apparently far more important than saving lives.

As for the lack of planning, there have been plans, plans, and more plans
about the catastrophic failure of those levees and dikes in place for
decades.

Read "The control of Nature" by John McPhee, he, among many writers, was
talking about the role of the Army corp of Engineers in that area and their
plans years ago.

"Mr. Bill" of SNL fame did a flippin PSA about the levees breaking well over
a year ago.

Contrary to Mr. Bush's comments, a lot of people knew exactly what would
happen when the levee's were breached. They were asking, begging and
pleading for federal money for decades to help fix the problems.

What they got was decreasing budgets every year from the last 3
administrations. Contracters working on the last series of local/state
projects went without pay for a year in order to complete their work. The
last local budget was used to pay contracter's for work done the previous
year.

The lack of leadership from the federal government is mind numbing. The
president went to a freakin golf course AFTER being informed that a class
4,5 hurricane was less than 100 miles from landfall.

The directors of both FEMA and of Homeland Security have exactly zero
experience in emergency/disaster preparedness and response. Mr. Brown of
FEMA had to be told by television reporters the extent of the problems
erupting at the New Orleans convention center. And these are the people who
are in charge of things? God help us when we actually get attacked by
someone.






"ROYNEU" wrote in message
oups.com...
You could be right. I couldn't tell if Mark and/or Juanita was refering
to the shooting at rescue workers or if it was the case where the Gov.
pulled the police out of the rescue work night before last to stop the
looters in general.

Let them have the TV's etc. there will be no power to plug it into
anyway. Beside they will be selling their hide for a drink of water
pretty soon.

Roy

On 2 Sep 2005 10:55:28 -0700, "ROYNEU" wrote:

You could be right. I couldn't tell if Mark and/or Juanita was refering
to the shooting at rescue workers or if it was the case where the Gov.
pulled the police out of the rescue work night before last to stop the
looters in general.

Let them have the TV's etc. there will be no power to plug it into
anyway. Beside they will be selling their hide for a drink of water
pretty soon.

Roy

I may be wrong, but I thought that the decision to pull the police
from rescue to looter control was due to looters looting gun stores,
armed bands raping and stealing from stranded folks, drug stores being
emptied from all sorts of controlled substances, coordinated attacks
on people holed up in hotels and on doctors in hospitals, etc., etc.
This bull of referring to the looters as those poor folks just trying
to get some food and water has lived its day and we have to see what
happened as the nasty, violent perdition of animals that it was.

Dave Hall

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:36:13 GMT, John Emmons wrote:
Nah, protecting property is apparently far more important than saving lives.

So you see the two as exclusive of the other? News flash: the people
doing looting, probably aren't _helping_ others survive either. Stop
them by whatever means is convenient, and you've solved 3 problems: they
stop looting, they stop making the situation worse, and you don't waste
time and resources trying to save that particular individual.

Contrary to Mr. Bush's comments, a lot of people knew exactly what would
happen when the levee's were breached. They were asking, begging and
pleading for federal money for decades to help fix the problems.

Which is why it's particularly asinine for people to blame Bush for the
events in question.

The lack of leadership from the federal government is mind numbing. The
president went to a freakin golf course AFTER being informed that a class
4,5 hurricane was less than 100 miles from landfall.

Right, because he could have stopped the storm? Wake the **** up. He
was equally powerless to predict it's path as anyone else. We get
several hurricanes a year - is he supposed to drop everything every
time? I'm sure you'd be equally critical then; "and the bozo wets his
pants every time it gets stormy" or something.

The directors of both FEMA and of Homeland Security have exactly zero
experience in emergency/disaster preparedness and response. Mr. Brown of
FEMA had to be told by television reporters the extent of the problems
erupting at the New Orleans convention center. And these are the people who
are in charge of things? God help us when we actually get attacked by
someone.

If your plans for survival include "wait for the government to save me
despite warnings to get the hell out", well, maybe you _should_ be
stranded. It's not like they didn't have warnings, an evacuation order,
warnings, know that they lived BELOW SEA LEVEL FOR ****S SAKE, and
warnings.

(snip)
I still think it highly unlikely anybody on this planet would have
been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place
to cope given the geography of the area.
(snip)

Actually, there was an article in the NO Times-Picayune in 2002 that is an
incredibly accurate prediction. See
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index....ebigone_1.html

Steve

In article , "John Emmons" wrote:
Nah, protecting property is apparently far more important than saving lives.

As for the lack of planning, there have been plans, plans, and more plans
about the catastrophic failure of those levees and dikes in place for
decades.

Plans are little use in the absence of action...

Contrary to Mr. Bush's comments, a lot of people knew exactly what would
happen when the levee's were breached. They were asking, begging and
pleading for federal money for decades to help fix the problems.

And where was the government of the State of Louisiana? When did it become the
responsibility of the federal government to fix local problems? Why should
taxpayers in Utah or Indiana or Maine pay for repairing levees in Louisiana?

What they got was decreasing budgets every year from the last 3
administrations. Contracters working on the last series of local/state
projects went without pay for a year in order to complete their work. The
last local budget was used to pay contracter's for work done the previous
year.

See above. Not a federal responsibility.

The lack of leadership from the federal government is mind numbing. The
president went to a freakin golf course AFTER being informed that a class
4,5 hurricane was less than 100 miles from landfall.

What, you think he could have done something to change its course?

The directors of both FEMA and of Homeland Security have exactly zero
experience in emergency/disaster preparedness and response. Mr. Brown of
FEMA had to be told by television reporters the extent of the problems
erupting at the New Orleans convention center. And these are the people who
are in charge of things? God help us when we actually get attacked by
someone.

Immaterial. Trying to manage a disaster response from a thousand miles away
isn't going to work anyway. What counts is whether the local officials on the
scene know what they're up to.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Swingman wrote:

....

My basis of respect for Rudy G is the same I had as the white, Southern boy
CO of a combat unit in SE Asia, for my black, Northerner 1st Sgt.
....

I agree--he definitely has a projection about him...

One last observation, though. As terrible as it was in NYC, it was only
a small area in the heart of the city directly affecting something
like 20,000 people. In actual scope of the disaster and immediate
consequences it was minute compared to NO in particular and the Gulf
Coast in general.

Steve Peterson wrote:

(snip)
I still think it highly unlikely anybody on this planet would have
been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place
to cope given the geography of the area.
(snip)

Actually, there was an article in the NO Times-Picayune in 2002 that is an
incredibly accurate prediction. See
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index....ebigone_1.html

My point is it is one thing to predict analytically, yet another to
create enough belief to react in such scope prior to the event. It is
so incredible and so out of character it is simply beyond most to
imagine and so they can't bring themselves to go far enough in their
actions. Wise? No. Human nature? Yes.

Place yourself in the position even if you had read the predictions and
with very limited resources and what seem to be far more pressing
issues. Can you honestly say you would have unequivocally devoted
sufficient resources to the far-off "one day"?

In article . net,
Steve Peterson wrote:

Actually, there was an article in the NO Times-Picayune in 2002 that is an
incredibly accurate prediction. See
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index....ebigone_1.html

Steve

Anyone above a half-wit in NOLA knew this was inevitable, just as
anyone above a half-wit living in California knows the Big One could
hit tomorrow.

What astounds me is how poorly prepared the agencies (civic, state and
federal) appear to have been, and how quickly the facade of
civilization collapses.

Here in Canada we joked about our army being mobilized a few years ago
when Toronto got hit by a freak snowstorm, but the fact is they were
mobilized in hours, responded in hours and the operation was a success.

WTF is going on along the gulf coast? It's been FIVE DAYS and relief is
just arriving...

--
Life. Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. -- Dr. Who

Dave Balderstone wrote:

WTF is going on along the gulf coast? It's been FIVE DAYS and relief is
just arriving...



Two words: "magnitude" and "logistics"

Don't forget some people would have been rescued from their homes had
the good folks who volunteered to go in with boats not been fired upon.
Snipers have been firing upon doctors still stuck downtown at
hospitals. Would you stroll down there as a good Samaritan to pluck
someone out of the flood if chances are you'd get blown away by one of
the nut cases? Much of the relief effort has had to be diverted to
reestablishing law and order. The damage turned out to be much worse
than expected, so cut the authorities who are working nearly 20 hours a
day, a bit of slack. How have you helped out? If you aren't part of
the solution, then you must be part of the problem. Corrupt NO police
contributed to the quickly escalating anarchy. Some of them went so far
as to turn in their badges (probably the same one's seen looting on
camera?).

Dave

"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message

What astounds me is how poorly prepared the agencies (civic, state and
federal) appear to have been, and how quickly the facade of
civilization collapses.

Here in Canada we joked about our army being mobilized a few years ago
when Toronto got hit by a freak snowstorm, but the fact is they were
mobilized in hours, responded in hours and the operation was a success.

WTF is going on along the gulf coast? It's been FIVE DAYS and relief is
just arriving...

Pretty damn unbelievable, I agree.

However, as bad as it is, it _is_ heartening to see the reaction here in
Houston from many. Made four trips to a Red Cross drop-off point in my truck
thus far today, carrying clothes, canned goods, games, toys, blankets,
towels and every imaginable type of hygienic item, all donated by folks on
just the few streets surrounding mine. An e-mail to my immediate neighbors
this morning saying that since I had a truck, I could easily do a 'pickup
and delivery' for those who were unable, next thing I know I have a
mini-pickup point on my hands. The same thing is going on all over this
city.

When I get to these two drop-off points, the multitude of ORGANIZED
volunteers, from little kids to senior citizens, working to feed and clothe
the "refugees" here would make you feel a lot better that things are more
swiftly being addressed than you're going to see on the news.

I just watched a BBC newscast that had a decidedly political spin to it ...
really ****ed me off after what I've seen here all day.

That said, I agree with everything you say.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

Swingman wrote:
"LRod" wrote in message


Same thing happened in NYC on 9/11. It wouldn't have mattered if
they'd been able to predict the attacks and had all the fire trucks
and police lined up waiting for it. The magnitude of two huge
buildings coming down like that was beyond anyone's capacity to
comprehend, much less plan for, and even less to be able to respond
adequately to.

Agreed. Nonetheless, Rudy G could give the mayor of NO some lessons in
leadership, including having a "command and control" infrastructure in
place, the lack thereof being largely responsible for much of the initial
'confusion' (a nicer term for the ugliness that really happened).

That that type of forethought has been within the realm of
leadership/planners since WWII is inarguable.

I have to agree. Also, what happened in NYC was totally unexpected,
completely out of the clear blue sky, while NO had days of warning, and
years and even decades of the knowledge that what did come was going to
come, someday. I wonder how many still believe in "someday."

Sounds like Houston is getting a lot of refugees. Keep up your good
work. In the meantime, I'll make another small donation to the Red
Cross or Salvation Army. Maybe both.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "John Emmons" wrote:
Nah, protecting property is apparently far more important than saving lives.

As for the lack of planning, there have been plans, plans, and more plans
about the catastrophic failure of those levees and dikes in place for
decades.

Plans are little use in the absence of action...

Contrary to Mr. Bush's comments, a lot of people knew exactly what would
happen when the levee's were breached. They were asking, begging and
pleading for federal money for decades to help fix the problems.

And where was the government of the State of Louisiana? When did it become the
responsibility of the federal government to fix local problems?

That started right around the time that the locals began paying
taxes to the Federal Government to support programs that weren't
strictly Federal in nature. In the instant case, perhaps protecting
NO, Biloxi and Mobile from Natural disasters became a Federal
Problem when the Feds started levying tariffs on good passing
through those ports. Keep in mind that the states cannot
levy tariffs of their own.

Why should
taxpayers in Utah or Indiana or Maine pay for repairing levees
in Louisiana?

Well the seaport of New Orleans contributes quite a bit to the the
economy of the entire country. Perhaps as much so as the Federally
subsidized farming in Indiana, the Federally-regulated fishing in
Maine (probably a bad example as I doubt that the fishermen there
think the Feds are _helping_) or the Federal highway system in Utah.
(I know, the farmers aren't PAID by the Feds, but they do benefit
from the subsidy program) Everybody gets Federal aid at the local
level, maybe we'd all be better off without it and just pay less
tax to the Federal Government, but that is not the way it is or
has been for about a century or so. And as noted above, seaports
are special in that they cannot directly tax the imports/exports
to raise revenue themselves.


What they got was decreasing budgets every year from the last 3
administrations. Contracters working on the last series of local/state
projects went without pay for a year in order to complete their work. The
last local budget was used to pay contracter's for work done the previous
year.

See above. Not a federal responsibility.

Part of the problem is that once the Feds do get involved, then
the locals get used to suckling on the Federal teat and stop
fending for themselves. Then if the Feds do a half-assed job
or pull out of the program the locals don't have the management
or infrastructure in place. In the case of NO, one imagines that
few administrations were willing to build up the levies and
the return (in campaign contributions) was probably higher if
the available funds were spent on other things like the infrastruce
needed to support tourism. Not a good thing. Not an excuse,
just some commentary.



The directors of both FEMA and of Homeland Security have exactly zero
experience in emergency/disaster preparedness and response. Mr. Brown of
FEMA had to be told by television reporters the extent of the problems
erupting at the New Orleans convention center. And these are the people who
are in charge of things? God help us when we actually get attacked by
someone.

Immaterial. Trying to manage a disaster response from a thousand miles away
isn't going to work anyway. What counts is whether the local officials on the
scene know what they're up to.


Screwed again.

--

FF

Duane Bozarth (in ) said:

| I knew after I sent it I didn't word what I meant well...it's one
| thing to know/predict it's yet another to really envision what
| actually occurs. I think there's a conceptual leap there virtually
| impossible to grasp as it is so far beyond the expected. Just as
| the complete destruction of the areas hit by the Tsunami was
| known...
|
| And, yes, I'll agree there has been apparent slow response--why and
| who I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does
| anything constructive at this point...

It'd better, there are at least two more hurricanes a-brewing at the
moment. Preparation of emergency plans is *not* a leisure-time
play-group activity.

Furthermore, even with forty-leven levels of contingency planning, two
major components of leadership are thinking on your feet and readiness
to do what's needed - without dithering, delay, or posturing. With
stockpiles of combat rations, water, and tents we should have been
seeing massive air drops of supplies into Gulf states' drop zones
within hours of Katrina's passage - with an immediate ramp-up
following the levee failures.

The size of the disaster cannot be an excuse for failing to take
immediate and effective action.

I'm absolutely floored that none of the cellular service providers has
thought to set up temporary "towers" for emergency communications.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message

** Preparation of emergency plans is *not* a leisure-time
play-group activity.

** two major components of leadership are thinking on your feet and
readiness
to do what's needed - without dithering, delay, or posturing.

** The size of the disaster cannot be an excuse for failing to take
immediate and effective action.

I am beginning to suspect that we could do worse than making a calculated
effort to replace the current crop of "emergency management" _leadership_,
at the national and regional levels, with a core of seasoned, ex military
combat leaders. I doubt there is anyone in this country, as a group, who is
better trained and more qualified to think, plan and react as you point out
** above.

Just imagine how effective FEMA could be with a Schwarzkopf in charge
instead of a politically favored lawyer.

With all the damn wars we've involved ourselves in, just in my lifetime,
there should be a few of them around.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05