My regular (and favorite) supplier Arizona Silhouette
is out of the green bottle stopper blanks (in
both boxelder and Maple).

I'm looking for another supply. I did
find: http://penmakingsupplies.com/Projects/bottle_stop3.php,
but at $7.50 x2 it'd make an expensive bottle stopper.

Anyone know of another source?

So far ebay and other usual supects have come up dry.

Thanks

--
Nobody Special

On Jan 29, 11:01 pm, Nobody Special wrote:
My regular (and favorite) supplier Arizona Silhouette
is out of the green bottle stopper blanks (in
both boxelder and Maple).

I'm looking for another supply. I did

When I make small Christmas stuff and want some color, I use Ritz
(sp?) clothes dye (color fast, UV resistant) mixed with anhydrous
alcohol. The anhydrous alcohol will actually suck out some of the
moisture in the wood and replace it with the dye/alcohol mixture. I do
this when I make little wooden Christmas light bulbs in red and
green. Oddly enough, I have to go to a fabric/hobby store to get the
exact color I am looking for, a kind of "pool table felt" green.

Cut your blank to shape, sand it, final sand it. Drop it in the dye
mix. Leave it there overnight. Take it out and fiber pad/steel wool
it, then if you have raised grain issues, drop it back in again
overnight. Final sand and polish as usual. Make sure you give it a
chance to dry properly between sandings and testing as you will have
green everywhere if you don't.

Soft woods don't need overnight and will take in so much dye you will
think it is baked in But a small, burly knot that doesn't take the
dye really well surrounded by softer woods looks fantastic. Hard wood
times vary, as does spalted materials. I experimented with times and
dye mixes a lot, and now I just mix in a teaspoon of dye and put in
pint of alcohol and let them swim in it.

You have latex gloves or tongs for this, right?

A word of warning: Mix your dye with distilled water if you are
working with spalted wood as the alcohol will destroy the ink lines we
all like so much.

You can do a million stoppers this way for pennies.

You could also use Behlen's green wood dye available at Amazon. I
have no personal experience with it.

Robert

wrote:
On Jan 29, 11:01 pm, Nobody Special wrote:

My regular (and favorite) supplier Arizona Silhouette
is out of the green bottle stopper blanks (in
both boxelder and Maple).

I'm looking for another supply. I did


When I make small Christmas stuff and want some color, I use Ritz
(sp?) clothes dye (color fast, UV resistant) mixed with anhydrous
alcohol. The anhydrous alcohol will actually suck out some of the
moisture in the wood and replace it with the dye/alcohol mixture. I do
this when I make little wooden Christmas light bulbs in red and
green. Oddly enough, I have to go to a fabric/hobby store to get the
exact color I am looking for, a kind of "pool table felt" green.

Robert-

I like the suggestion on dying my own, but
how deep does the dye penetrate?

I need pretty deep color because I actually
glue up 2 parts for a stopper that looks like
a Thistle. Here's the idea but in polyester:
http://www.rziha.net/sailing/images/...oppers0010.JPG

Maybe I'll get the one currently on the lathe photographed.

So after gluing the green and purple parts together I'd need
to clean it up some -- hence the need for good penetration of
the dye.

Thanks



Robert

On Jan 30, 3:32 pm, Nobody Special wrote:


I like the suggestion on dying my own, but
how deep does the dye penetrate?

Not trying to be cagey, but it depends on the wood. A piece of soft
maple will haul in the dye, a piece of burly oak will not. If you
have some pieces that you are willing to try this on as an experiment,
it would probably be worth your while. (C'mon... what turner doesn't
have dozens of little nubs of this and that looking for a home?)

You know what I mean! ;^)

Put a piece of the wood you are thinking of making your stopper from
in the dye and leave it overnight. Dry it out and cut a cross section
with a saw. That will tell you how THAT particular piece will react.
I have seen soft maple come out of a long soak of this stuff with
about 1/8 penetration. On your woodturning, that means you would only
have to get that little stopper within 1/4" of final shape. Not hard.

You won't ever get the same results from your house as they dye those
pieces under something like 60,000 pounds of applied pressure,
injecting them with some resin as well at the same time to help
stabilize the blanks. I have read some ridiculous numbers on the
fully stabilized blanks, so much so I wouldn't even post them.

The reason I said above to cut most of your shape before you dye was
to make sure you minimized your penetration problems. You cut the raw
wood into shape, sand it to finish, and then dip in your dye again if
you have some irregularities in the finish.

Here's why I don't worry too much about Those dyes are pretty
forgiving. If you sand off a little too much and it looks uneven,
even after you assemble, you can touch up the dye job before finishing
with a .10 artist's brush and a quick swipe with a rag The more burl
and swirl the piece has the less chance anyone will ever have of
detecting color differences.

What are you using for your final finish?

Another question, are you using plated chrome stoppers or Ruth Niles'
stainless stoppers?

Robert

wrote:
On Jan 30, 3:32 pm, Nobody Special wrote:



I like the suggestion on dying my own, but
how deep does the dye penetrate?


Not trying to be cagey, but it depends on the wood. A piece of soft
maple will haul in the dye, a piece of burly oak will not. If you
have some pieces that you are willing to try this on as an experiment,
it would probably be worth your while. (C'mon... what turner doesn't
have dozens of little nubs of this and that looking for a home?)

You know what I mean! ;^)

Yes, I do. Every time I try to walk across the shop without
tripping.

I did go get a nice piece of maple burl yesterday and stuck a
sliver into some TransTint (water soluble) dye yesterday for
about 1.5hrs. Pretty much no penetration.

I'm thinking if I can get a vacuum pump I might try this:
http://content.penturners.org/articl...yurethane1.pdf

Hmm.. Anyone in the Phoenix area got a vacuum system I could borrow?


What are you using for your final finish?

I had been using shellac and wax, but was considering moving
to BLO/cyanoacrylate.

Another question, are you using plated chrome stoppers or Ruth Niles'
stainless stoppers?

I have some of the plated chrome stoppers, but my newest order
was all stainless.

--
Jason

"Nobody Special" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Jan 30, 3:32 pm, Nobody Special wrote:



I like the suggestion on dying my own, but
how deep does the dye penetrate?


Not trying to be cagey, but it depends on the wood. A piece of soft
maple will haul in the dye, a piece of burly oak will not. If you
have some pieces that you are willing to try this on as an experiment,
it would probably be worth your while. (C'mon... what turner doesn't
have dozens of little nubs of this and that looking for a home?)

You know what I mean! ;^)

Yes, I do. Every time I try to walk across the shop without
tripping.

I did go get a nice piece of maple burl yesterday and stuck a
sliver into some TransTint (water soluble) dye yesterday for
about 1.5hrs. Pretty much no penetration.

I'm thinking if I can get a vacuum pump I might try this:
http://content.penturners.org/articl...yurethane1.pdf

Hmm.. Anyone in the Phoenix area got a vacuum system I could borrow?


Think about it. The lower the density/SG of the wood, the more spaces
versus places, since all wood's pretty much the same sugars. Means aspen
and such are going to give you the best penetration versus time.

You can create a sort of mini vacuum by warming the wood and placing it into
the dye. Lower pressure of the heated and expanded air will draw as it
cools.

On Jan 31, 9:22 am, Nobody Special wrote:

I did go get a nice piece of maple burl yesterday and stuck a
sliver into some TransTint (water soluble) dye yesterday for
about 1.5hrs. Pretty much no penetration.

That's why I put in the earlier post to mix with alcohol. It is
miscible with water, and will actually pull the surface moisture out
of the wood to a small extent, penetrating more than water, bringing
the dye along with it.


I'm thinking if I can get a vacuum pump I might try this:http://content.penturners.org/articl...yurethane1.pdf

On small pieces I have heard of some successes using a food vacuum,
and simply cycling the vacuum several times. The object to be dyed
are put in a vacuum canister (not the bags) and covered with the dye
solution then cycled.

I have some of the plated chrome stoppers, but my newest order
was all stainless.

Are you buying those from Arizona Silhouette?

As for finish, I line mine all up stuck on dowels and spray them with
a couple of coats of lacquer from a rattle can. Then assemble. If my
finish is where I want it I don't buff or anything else before
packaging.

I haven't made that many, but I have been approached by someone that
wants to see if I could make a lot of them for him to give as gifts in
his business. As when I was making pens, it will probably work fine
at first, but then so many will be doing it that the prices will drop
to near nothing.

I get from $17.50 (chrome) and up to $25 (stainless) and everything in
between for one of these. You? Anyone else?

Robert

wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 9:22 am, Nobody Special wrote:

I did go get a nice piece of maple burl yesterday and stuck a
sliver into some TransTint (water soluble) dye yesterday for
about 1.5hrs. Pretty much no penetration.

That's why I put in the earlier post to mix with alcohol. It is
miscible with water, and will actually pull the surface moisture out
of the wood to a small extent, penetrating more than water, bringing
the dye along with it.

RUBBISH! If it mixes, it merely dilutes. Water and alcohol molecules both
find their way out to and are carried away in air. The more volatile
alcohol finds its way out at a faster rate than the less-volatile water.

Alcohol mix dyes are used because they don't raise the grain as much as
water mix. The reason the grain raises with water mix is that the water
gets involved in hydrogen-bonding with the sugars, fattening them up. The
wood boys refer to it as "bulking." Alcohols aren't as polar and prone.

On Jan 31, 12:20 pm, "George" wrote:


RUBBISH! If it mixes, it merely dilutes. Water and alcohol molecules both
find their way out to and are carried away in air. The more volatile
alcohol finds its way out at a faster rate than the less-volatile water.

And it carries no surface moisture with it? Should I surmise that
when I wash my hands with anhydrous alcohol to clean them and they
turn crusty and white that NO moisture was carried away? I doubt it.
They seem pretty dry and without surface moisture to me.

In this instance, it works for me. YMMV. I know you well enough from
this venue George that there is little room or tolerance in your world
for contradiction to your own beliefs, but the alcohol testing I did
with Behlen's Solar Lux did indeed penetrate significantly more on
identical pieces of wood over the same period of time. I cut
the pieces, I put them in the dye mixes, and I cut the
cross sections on the miter saw.

Some way, under identical conditions with the only variable being the
alcohol, there was a much higher penetration rate of the dye. My
observations are the results of my personal experience.

Of course, as already stated, YMMV.

Alcohol mix dyes are used because they don't raise the grain as much as
water mix. The reason the grain raises with water mix is that the water
gets involved in hydrogen-bonding with the sugars, fattening them up. The
wood boys refer to it as "bulking." Alcohols aren't as polar and prone.

Agree.

My explanation may not have suited you in so far as how the dye
penetration process works, but I believe yours to be oversimplified.
I would think of you would try a simple penetration test yourself you
would quite probably see a difference. After reading several well
researched treatises by woodturners on alcohol drying and the use of
alcohol as a carrier when dyeing or staining, there are two distinct
camps with two different sets of supporting evidence.

Obviously we don't belong to the same one.

Robert

George wrote:

"Nobody Special" wrote in message
...

wrote:

Think about it. The lower the density/SG of the wood, the more spaces
versus places, since all wood's pretty much the same sugars. Means
aspen and such are going to give you the best penetration versus time.

And add in the structure of the wood, porosity of the cellular walls,
etc. Best to try a sample of your board and find out.


You can create a sort of mini vacuum by warming the wood and placing it
into the dye. Lower pressure of the heated and expanded air will draw
as it cools.

Nice idea.

Thanks

wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:22 am, Nobody Special wrote:


I did go get a nice piece of maple burl yesterday and stuck a
sliver into some TransTint (water soluble) dye yesterday for
about 1.5hrs. Pretty much no penetration.


That's why I put in the earlier post to mix with alcohol. It is
miscible with water, and will actually pull the surface moisture out
of the wood to a small extent, penetrating more than water, bringing
the dye along with it.


I didn't miss that detail, I just had the water based already
mixed up. Now to repeat with alcohol and a longer soak.


I'm thinking if I can get a vacuum pump I might try this:http://content.penturners.org/articl...yurethane1.pdf

I have some of the plated chrome stoppers, but my newest order
was all stainless.


Are you buying those from Arizona Silhouette?

Yes. Know of a cheaper place?
Although Bill's service is hard to beat.


As for finish, I line mine all up stuck on dowels and spray them with
a couple of coats of lacquer from a rattle can. Then assemble. If my
finish is where I want it I don't buff or anything else before
packaging.

I haven't made that many, but I have been approached by someone that
wants to see if I could make a lot of them for him to give as gifts in
his business. As when I was making pens, it will probably work fine
at first, but then so many will be doing it that the prices will drop
to near nothing.

I get from $17.50 (chrome) and up to $25 (stainless) and everything in
between for one of these. You? Anyone else?

I was selling the polyester for $20 and the wood ones for $25
this summer. But that was at Thistle (class of sailboat) Nationals-
which is why they're shaped like Thistles.

George wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Jan 31, 9:22 am, Nobody Special wrote:

I did go get a nice piece of maple burl yesterday and stuck a
sliver into some TransTint (water soluble) dye yesterday for
about 1.5hrs. Pretty much no penetration.


That's why I put in the earlier post to mix with alcohol. It is
miscible with water, and will actually pull the surface moisture out
of the wood to a small extent, penetrating more than water, bringing
the dye along with it.


RUBBISH! If it mixes, it merely dilutes. Water and alcohol molecules
both find their way out to and are carried away in air. The more
volatile alcohol finds its way out at a faster rate than the
less-volatile water.

Alcohol mix dyes are used because they don't raise the grain as much as
water mix. The reason the grain raises with water mix is that the water
gets involved in hydrogen-bonding with the sugars, fattening them up.
The wood boys refer to it as "bulking." Alcohols aren't as polar and
prone.


I'm going with nailshooter here. Assuming you've got anhydrous alcohol,
the water will want to equilize the concentrations inside the wood with
that (0%) outside. Thus, water should exit the wood. Since nature
abhors a vacuum, alcohol *should* work its way in to replace the water
taking the dye with it.

The grain-raising (or lack thereof) may be the most common reason
alcohol dyes are used, but there can be other useful properties.

--
Nobody Special

On Jan 31, 9:48 pm, Nobody Special wrote:



I was selling the polyester for $20 and the wood ones for $25
this summer. But that was at Thistle (class of sailboat) Nationals-
which is why they're shaped like Thistles.

I got it now. When I looked at the pic you linked, I thought it
looked pretty spiff, but when looking at them didn't get the actual
reason for the thistle design.

For years, I have heard nothing but great stuff about AS in regards to
their service and product. That says a lot to me. I have been
purchasing from Craft Supplies, but probably won't anymore as they
were only offering chrome stoppers. Whether true or not, the hue and
cry is on to get rid of the chrome stoppers as the story goes that the
chrome comes off. Mine haven't, nor have the ones I have gifted.

I was thinking about buying mine from Ruth Niles, another person whom
there hasn't been an unkind word spoken. She used to frequent the
forums and newsgroups more often, but I think she just got too
busy.
Seems to be a nice lady. Her site:

http://www.torne-lignum.com

Thanks for the price info. It lets me know I am about where I need to
be. I am not that happy with the pricing, as it takes too long to
make to get $10 - $15 from it by the time you are finished. (We'll
leave out postage, finishing materials, transportation costs, etc.)

I am thinking of going another route with this, if you are interested,
let me know here and we can contact each other.

I am surprised no one else chimed in with their stopper prices. Mac?
Nothing? I can't believe you aren't selling tequila toppers (not
stoppers!) down there south of the border.

Robert

wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 12:20 pm, "George" wrote:


RUBBISH! If it mixes, it merely dilutes. Water and alcohol molecules
both
find their way out to and are carried away in air. The more volatile
alcohol finds its way out at a faster rate than the less-volatile water.

And it carries no surface moisture with it? Should I surmise that
when I wash my hands with anhydrous alcohol to clean them and they
turn crusty and white that NO moisture was carried away? I doubt it.
They seem pretty dry and without surface moisture to me.


Uh, the reason they're dry is because you've removed oils. Fortunately your
body will produce more.

Take a quick look at how distillation works and you'll see what's happening.
The azeotrope is ~95/5 % with ethanol. So with as little available water
and as large a percentage of _anhydrous_ alcohol, it is what's evaporating.
That azeotrope business is what makes methanol a good denaturant.
ethanol/methanol azeotrope makes it near impossible to redistill.


In this instance, it works for me. YMMV. I know you well enough from
this venue George that there is little room or tolerance in your world
for contradiction to your own beliefs, but the alcohol testing I did
with Behlen's Solar Lux did indeed penetrate significantly more on
identical pieces of wood over the same period of time. I cut
the pieces, I put them in the dye mixes, and I cut the
cross sections on the miter saw.


You might have read before you responded. Didn't say it wouldn't penetrate
farther. Just might, given that alcohol moves freely without being bound to
the sugars like water. If the carrier has greater cohesion than adhesion,
it should.

Some way, under identical conditions with the only variable being the
alcohol, there was a much higher penetration rate of the dye. My
observations are the results of my personal experience.

Of course, as already stated, YMMV.

Alcohol mix dyes are used because they don't raise the grain as much as
water mix. The reason the grain raises with water mix is that the water
gets involved in hydrogen-bonding with the sugars, fattening them up.
The
wood boys refer to it as "bulking." Alcohols aren't as polar and prone.

Agree.

My explanation may not have suited you in so far as how the dye
penetration process works, but I believe yours to be oversimplified.
I would think of you would try a simple penetration test yourself you
would quite probably see a difference. After reading several well
researched treatises by woodturners on alcohol drying and the use of
alcohol as a carrier when dyeing or staining, there are two distinct
camps with two different sets of supporting evidence.

Obviously we don't belong to the same one.

Robert

"Nobody Special" wrote in message
...
I'm going with nailshooter here. Assuming you've got anhydrous alcohol,
the water will want to equilize the concentrations inside the wood with
that (0%) outside. Thus, water should exit the wood. Since nature
abhors a vacuum, alcohol *should* work its way in to replace the water
taking the dye with it.

The grain-raising (or lack thereof) may be the most common reason
alcohol dyes are used, but there can be other useful properties.


Go with this instead.
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/...a/idealpd.html Remember that
air already contains a pretty good amount of water, unless you're as dry as
a heated house in the middle of winter.

What a difference a word makes! Remember the popular song, "Three Little
Words"? In an otherwise thoughtful post to this thread, merely changing
"Rubbish" to "In MY Opinion" or "From what I've read" would have
changed the thrust of the discussion and made reading different takes
from two valued and respected friends more comfortable. There seems to
be a set of unresolved controversies that are like an itch that never
heals and we woodturners seem to enjoy scratching til it bleeds. Drying
and dying are quite itchy.


I mean this only as an idle observation.
Absolutely not as a "Can't we all just get along?" pabalum or a "Now-Now
children" puffed up presumption from an unelected word policeman. I seem
to never learn that when two friends disagree, it is better not to make
observations. Now, as for those fried green bottle stoppers ...!


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Arch" wrote in message
...
What a difference a word makes! Remember the popular song, "Three Little
Words"? In an otherwise thoughtful post to this thread, merely changing
"Rubbish" to "In MY Opinion" or "From what I've read" would have
changed the thrust of the discussion and made reading different takes
from two valued and respected friends more comfortable. There seems to
be a set of unresolved controversies that are like an itch that never
heals and we woodturners seem to enjoy scratching til it bleeds. Drying
and dying are quite itchy.


I mean this only as an idle observation.
Absolutely not as a "Can't we all just get along?" pabalum or a "Now-Now
children" puffed up presumption from an unelected word policeman. I seem
to never learn that when two friends disagree, it is better not to make
observations. Now, as for those fried green bottle stoppers ...!


Idling a bit myself until the user of this device I'm building can get the
interior dimensions validated.

Words are chosen by their users to convey thoughts. Alcohol drying is
rubbish, and thus labeled as such. It violates the demonstrable laws of
physical chemistry, as has been referenced repeatedly; it violates simple
good sense, as has been stated repeatedly. Sooner it is consigned to the
rubbish heap the better.

As one of the few who have actually done _controlled_ experiments with
alcohol and simple open air drying on a number of species of wood,
including, I might add, the use of an alcohol-based dye to ascertain
penetration on the various grain orientations, I can say that the rubbish
appelation it is _not_ an opinion, but fact. Kind of suspected it all
along, given that distillation is based on the more rapid evaporation of
alcohol versus water.

I'll even say that assertions involving stabilization of wood by soaking in
ethanol (other alcohols with boiling points above water are different) is
purely subjective. Soaked and unsoaked pieces with the same grain
orientation distorted to the same degree and in the same direction. Kind of
suspected that too, since alcoholic beverages have been aged and stored in
wood without diminishing their potency (less the differential evaporation,
for the nit-pickers) for millenia. If the alcohol stayed behind to
stabilize the wood you can bet it wouldn't be stored there.

I just dropped in on Dave's blog, and he still has not documented a
controlled experiment to validate his assertions.

So, rather than encourage people to rely on magic, I would encourage them to
take advantage of the splendid research available in the FPL site. Then
they can develop their own set of tradeoffs for redesign room versus
readiness in roughing. Our tax dollars were not wasted on these guys.
They have been right every time I've challenged their data, though I still
have to experiment to satisfy my own curiosity occasionally.

On Feb 1, 10:57 am, "George" wrote:

Words are chosen by their users to convey thoughts. Alcohol drying is
rubbish, and thus labeled as such.

That might well be. But take off your lab coat and put your glasses.

That's why I put in the earlier post to mix with alcohol. It is
miscible with water, and will actually pull the surface moisture out
of the wood to a small extent, penetrating more than water, bringing
the dye along with it.

RUBBISH! If it mixes, it merely dilutes. Water and alcohol molecules both
find their way out to and are carried away in air. The more volatile
alcohol finds its way out at a faster rate than the less-volatile water.

Before you screamed RUBBISH! and started your well known diatribe on
the stupidity of alcohol drying, I ask you this: WHERE did I say
anything about alcohol drying? I am not sure where you jumped off the
cliff on this, but a careful reread on your part of this entire thread
will reveal:

Nowhere did I say that alcohol drying did, or did not work.
No screaming needed. I never addressed that subject in any way. I
don't personally see how alcohol drying could actually work, but that
is another subject. There are those that do, and I say good for
them. Not "stupid" them.

You even make my case (again, read carefully) about SURFACE moisture
being removed when you said in response to my example of moisture
being removed from my hands:

Uh, the reason they're dry is because you've removed oils. Fortunately your body will produce more.

Thanks for the heads up. I don't want dry skin forever. I am
guessing though, you assume that moisture (which could indeed be oils)
cannot be pulled from the surface of wood when alcohol mixes with it,
then evaporates off taking some of the moisture with it. NOTE: I
always say "surface".

If you jumped to any other conclusion than surface treatments, please
reread my comment about not getting the same results at home as you
get from a factory. In no way do I ever talk about any kind of deep
penetration due to alcohol "drying". Think surface moisture. In
context, all NS needs is enough penetration to get the job done.
Besides... remember

But then, you step up to further reinforce my point in your own smarmy
way:

You might have read before you responded. Didn't say it wouldn't penetrate
farther. Just might, given that alcohol moves freely without being bound to
the sugars like water. If the carrier has greater cohesion than adhesion, it should.

No, earlier you did say

Alcohol mix dyes are used because they don't raise the grain as much as water mix. The reason the grain raises

Again, I am wondering where you land on this issue. For someone that
obviously prides themselves on their attention to the detail, early on
in this thread you ignored my original statement about alcohol
assisting in the dye penetration, asserting on that it doesn't raise
the grain.

So I am sticking with what I originally wrote, and for the life of me
I cannot see where we disagree:

That's why I put in the earlier post to mix with alcohol. It is
miscible with water, and will actually pull the surface moisture out
of the wood to a small extent, penetrating more than water, bringing
the dye along with it.

- Water is miscible with alcohol
- Alcohol will assist in SURFACE removal of moisture/oils of wood
- A mix of alcohol/dye will penetrate more than water/dye mix

I cannot find where you disagree with any of that, except your
original scream of "RUBBISH!"

Was all this diatribe on your part just a hijack of a thread so you
could verbalize your opinions on alcohol drying? Did you think I was
a proponent of alcohol drying? Anyone that has been around here for
awhile knows your opinions on drying.

Was I too obtuse in my statement? It seems from your subsequent posts
that maybe you misunderstood those two sentences.

Robert

On Feb 1, 9:24*am, (Arch) wrote:

What a difference a word makes! Remember the popular song, "Three Little
Words"? In an otherwise thoughtful post to this thread, merely changing
"Rubbish" to "In MY Opinion" or "From what I've read" *would have
changed the thrust of the discussion

Undoubtedly. But carrying the mantle of self righteousness requires a
certain vocabulary. No doubt, it has started many a flame war.

Sadly, it seems the internet brings out the best and worst of folks,
and they don't really seem to relate well to one another when sitting
in front of screen.

And for years now, the art of respectful disagreement has been lost.
I usually respect another's opinion enough (or simply don't care about
it!) to let things go, or pose my own thoughts as a hypothesis or a
question.

I rarely bitch slap anyone these days.

I am not a hard line kind of guy, as over my years in the trades have
seen many things work that probably shouldn't. I have learned a
healthy respect for others pays good dividends, even if you disagree
with them.

And when you have an open forum such as this, I think it is important
to remember there are probably 10 times the amount of lurkers as there
are posters. While a poster may have a valid or invalid point, it may
be posted as an opinion. And no one wants to see their opinion
stomped on in a rude, bullying way.

And as is the case of this group, many simply don't participate. It
is too easy to walk off from an annoying thread. Reading this forum
for many probably consists of a quick skim (if there is actually
anything new to read) and then off. It used to be pretty lively
around here. I remember in the late 90s there were a ton of posts
every day.

I don't want to see this group fall in to the ways of the BBQ
newsgroup. There are a about 3 guys there that jump all over anyone
that asks a dumb question, or has an opinion different from theirs.
Now mind you .... bbq is subjective. If you don't like the taste of
something and I do, I don't expect to be attacked for my tasted buds.
And yet it happens.

Mentioning that I liked mesquite mixed in with my bbq, I had a guy
from Austin get so upset with me that after a couple of emails he told
me my bbq tastes "like ****" (how he would know from 100 miles away is
beyond me) and that he would come down and kick my ass (literally!)
anytime I was up to it.

I think of these newsgroups as the shoolyard of the internet. Anyone
can do or say what they please when they please. But since we have no
hall monitors, teachers, or anyone else to make sure that we "play
well with others" it is up to us to make sure we do.

Robert

wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 9:48 pm, Nobody Special wrote:



I was selling the polyester for $20 and the wood ones for $25
this summer. But that was at Thistle (class of sailboat) Nationals-
which is why they're shaped like Thistles.

I got it now. When I looked at the pic you linked, I thought it
looked pretty spiff, but when looking at them didn't get the actual
reason for the thistle design.

For years, I have heard nothing but great stuff about AS in regards to
their service and product. That says a lot to me. I have been
purchasing from Craft Supplies, but probably won't anymore as they
were only offering chrome stoppers. Whether true or not, the hue and
cry is on to get rid of the chrome stoppers as the story goes that the
chrome comes off. Mine haven't, nor have the ones I have gifted.

I was thinking about buying mine from Ruth Niles, another person whom
there hasn't been an unkind word spoken. She used to frequent the
forums and newsgroups more often, but I think she just got too
busy.
Seems to be a nice lady. Her site:

http://www.torne-lignum.com

Thanks for the price info. It lets me know I am about where I need to
be. I am not that happy with the pricing, as it takes too long to
make to get $10 - $15 from it by the time you are finished. (We'll
leave out postage, finishing materials, transportation costs, etc.)

I am thinking of going another route with this, if you are interested,
let me know here and we can contact each other.

I am surprised no one else chimed in with their stopper prices. Mac?
Nothing? I can't believe you aren't selling tequila toppers (not
stoppers!) down there south of the border.

Robert

i've made some for my glass work, and worked with ruth on her steel tab
design for glassworkers. i get between 25 and 40 for them, depending upon if
they're 2 sided and how much glass i've added. my last batch of stoppers
cost me about .90/each but the plating is incredibly thin, discolors,
corrodes, and peels off, so you really do get your money's worth.

here's what i used:
http://www.partyandweddingfavors.com...&products_id=9

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:48 pm, Nobody Special wrote:


I was selling the polyester for $20 and the wood ones for $25
this summer. But that was at Thistle (class of sailboat) Nationals-
which is why they're shaped like Thistles.


I got it now. When I looked at the pic you linked, I thought it
looked pretty spiff, but when looking at them didn't get the actual
reason for the thistle design.
Seems to be a nice lady. Her site:

http://www.torne-lignum.com

Thanks for the price info. It lets me know I am about where I need to
be. I am not that happy with the pricing, as it takes too long to
make to get $10 - $15 from it by the time you are finished. (We'll
leave out postage, finishing materials, transportation costs, etc.)

I'm thinking I'll have to raise my prices by $5 for the SS, maybe
that much for boxelder since that's no longer available. That'll
give me a range from $20-35 and a better feel for what the market will
handle.

My feeling is $25, maybe $30 is going to be the point of resistance.
I also had a number of cigar pens at nationals ($45). Several lookers
but only one buyer.

As for how long it takes to turn one, last night I realized I'd
dropped my (old Delta) to its slowest speed (belt adjusted) for a bowl
I was doing. Kept getting catches, and it was taking an hour to
turn a stopper. Bumped it up 2 notches and things are much happier-
and faster.

Today I walked past someone cleaning out a cube "Hey- got
a motor controller for a 3/4Hp AC motor?" He replied "Sure, you know
how to program it?" It's good to be an EE.


I am thinking of going another route with this, if you are interested,
let me know here and we can contact each other.

I answer to jason at my domain -- check the picture URL


I am surprised no one else chimed in with their stopper prices. Mac?
Nothing? I can't believe you aren't selling tequila toppers (not
stoppers!) down there south of the border.

Robert

You can create a sort of mini vacuum by warming the wood and placing it into
the dye. Lower pressure of the heated and expanded air will draw as it
cools.

Reminds me of a industrial potato peeler at a french fry factory I
once visited for work. They load up a 1000lbs of potatoes in a
pressure vessel. Pressure it up to maybe 100 psi or so (can't remember
the exact amount), hold it for 5-10 minutes, then release the pressure
all at once. Blows the skin right off the potato.

Mitch

I quit reading this thread some time ago due to this problem. I hit your
post by mistake. There is just no enjoyment in reading that kind of stuff
any more than it is to have to listen to it in person. Way too many
otherwise good people end up in a kill filter because of these problems.


"Arch" wrote in message
...
What a difference a word makes! Remember the popular song, "Three Little
Words"? In an otherwise thoughtful post to this thread, merely changing
"Rubbish" to "In MY Opinion" or "From what I've read" would have
changed the thrust of the discussion and made reading different takes
from two valued and respected friends more comfortable. There seems to
be a set of unresolved controversies that are like an itch that never
heals and we woodturners seem to enjoy scratching til it bleeds. Drying
and dying are quite itchy.


I mean this only as an idle observation.
Absolutely not as a "Can't we all just get along?" pabalum or a "Now-Now
children" puffed up presumption from an unelected word policeman. I seem
to never learn that when two friends disagree, it is better not to make
observations. Now, as for those fried green bottle stoppers ...!


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings






--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

MB wrote:
You can create a sort of mini vacuum by warming the wood and placing it into
the dye. Lower pressure of the heated and expanded air will draw as it
cools.


Reminds me of a industrial potato peeler at a french fry factory I
once visited for work. They load up a 1000lbs of potatoes in a
pressure vessel. Pressure it up to maybe 100 psi or so (can't remember
the exact amount), hold it for 5-10 minutes, then release the pressure
all at once. Blows the skin right off the potato.

Mitch


A coworker's wife used to work at the Lays plant
in Casa Grande, AZ. He repeated the stories
about watching for rabbits in the trainloads of incoming
potatoes.

Evidently rabbits look like potatoes to the picking machines.

But they make an awful mess when they hit the slicer.

--
Nobody Special

wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:22 am, Nobody Special wrote:


I did go get a nice piece of maple burl yesterday and stuck a
sliver into some TransTint (water soluble) dye yesterday for
about 1.5hrs. Pretty much no penetration.

Updates:
1) It's transfast powder, not transtint. I'm not sure
how different they are, but the jar doesn't mention
dissolving in alcohol at all.

2) A piece left in alcohol-dissolved transfast overnight
then sliced showed little to no pigment penetration
(approx 19 hrs). Maybe I'll get out the camera and put
together a page with the data points here.
Several other pieces are still soaking.

3) I got a vacuum pump off craigslist today and after too
many trips to the BORG (I hate buying brass fittings there)
got a pickle jar dropped to where the blocks bubbled and sank
into the alcohol-dissolved transtint (liquid this time) dye.
(I don't have guages, so I don't know what in/Hg it was at).
Updates to follow tomorrow. I'll have to see how well the jar
holds vaccuum - so far I had to tighten down the fittings a couple
of times. Should have taped the threads, but was in a hurry.



That's why I put in the earlier post to mix with alcohol. It is
miscible with water, and will actually pull the surface moisture out
of the wood to a small extent, penetrating more than water, bringing
the dye along with it.


--
Nobody Special

wrote:
On Feb 1, 9:24 am, (Arch) wrote:

What a difference a word makes! Remember the popular song, "Three Little
Words"? In an otherwise thoughtful post to this thread, merely changing
"Rubbish" to "In MY Opinion" or "From what I've read" would have
changed the thrust of the discussion

Undoubtedly. But carrying the mantle of self righteousness requires a
certain vocabulary. No doubt, it has started many a flame war.

Sadly, it seems the internet brings out the best and worst of folks,
and they don't really seem to relate well to one another when sitting
in front of screen.

And for years now, the art of respectful disagreement has been lost.
I usually respect another's opinion enough (or simply don't care about
it!) to let things go, or pose my own thoughts as a hypothesis or a
question.

I rarely bitch slap anyone these days.

I am not a hard line kind of guy, as over my years in the trades have
seen many things work that probably shouldn't. I have learned a
healthy respect for others pays good dividends, even if you disagree
with them.

And when you have an open forum such as this, I think it is important
to remember there are probably 10 times the amount of lurkers as there
are posters. While a poster may have a valid or invalid point, it may
be posted as an opinion. And no one wants to see their opinion
stomped on in a rude, bullying way.

And as is the case of this group, many simply don't participate. It
is too easy to walk off from an annoying thread. Reading this forum
for many probably consists of a quick skim (if there is actually
anything new to read) and then off. It used to be pretty lively
around here. I remember in the late 90s there were a ton of posts
every day.

I don't want to see this group fall in to the ways of the BBQ
newsgroup. There are a about 3 guys there that jump all over anyone
that asks a dumb question, or has an opinion different from theirs.
Now mind you .... bbq is subjective. If you don't like the taste of
something and I do, I don't expect to be attacked for my tasted buds.
And yet it happens.

Mentioning that I liked mesquite mixed in with my bbq, I had a guy
from Austin get so upset with me that after a couple of emails he told
me my bbq tastes "like ****" (how he would know from 100 miles away is
beyond me) and that he would come down and kick my ass (literally!)
anytime I was up to it.

I think of these newsgroups as the shoolyard of the internet. Anyone
can do or say what they please when they please. But since we have no
hall monitors, teachers, or anyone else to make sure that we "play
well with others" it is up to us to make sure we do.

Robert

Since I know squat about dyes, drying
and the penetration of alcohol in wood,
I've just watched this thread a bit. But
it's OT and has moved into an area of
behaviour where we all can participate
if we so choose.

Well said, Robert. Done with a lot of
class.

I've been in groups where they're
"owned" by a loud few and I've left
those groups. Some leave because they're
intimidated, some leave because they're
physically threatened, and some, like
me, leave because they're bored and
aren't getting the interaction from the
group that it was originally built for.

For the most part, I do get what I came
for in this group. I'm not very active
because right now I'm mostly lurking and
sponging information. If, or as, my
skill level comes up, I'll probably be
more active. I'm not normally known as a
quiet member of any group for long.

I too, can appreciate a healthy
disagreement. In many ways, it adds to a
group, regardless of where it goes, as
long as it doesn't degrade into flames.
But it's often the ones who scream the
loudest who get the most attention.

However, I will take issue with your
closing statements. Yeah, it's a
schoolyard to an extent, and certainly
there are some bullies. I happen to like
unmoderated groups over the ones with
posts that can be pulled. But just
because a group is unmoderated doesn't
mean it's chaotic. I don't think this
one is, and many others I've seen have
their own sort of control. Plonking is
one control, as is a good shot back, as
you've done.

From what I've seen of this group, most
who post feel the same way. They put up
with bull**** for a bit, and then don't
put up with it at all.

--
Tanus

This is not really a sig.

http://www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 19:32:41 -0700, Nobody Special wrote:

1) It's transfast powder, not transtint. I'm not sure
how different they are, but the jar doesn't mention
dissolving in alcohol at all.

Transfast is soluble in water. TransTint liquid is soluble in both water
and alcohol.

Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 19:32:41 -0700, Nobody Special wrote:


1) It's transfast powder, not transtint. I'm not sure
how different they are, but the jar doesn't mention
dissolving in alcohol at all.


Transfast is soluble in water. TransTint liquid is soluble in both water
and alcohol.


Thought so. Thanks for confirming it.

Although the green did appear to dissolve in alcohol.
Perhaps it only suspended in the alcohol instead of dissolving.

Of course, now I've got to go repeat my penetration test
with transtint dissolved in water under vaccuum.....

Maybe in a few weeks when I'm not booked solid.


--
Nobody Special

Nobody Special wrote:

3) I got a vacuum pump off craigslist today and after too
many trips to the BORG (I hate buying brass fittings there)
got a pickle jar dropped to where the blocks bubbled and sank
into the alcohol-dissolved transtint (liquid this time) dye.
(I don't have guages, so I don't know what in/Hg it was at).
Updates to follow tomorrow. I'll have to see how well the jar
holds vaccuum - so far I had to tighten down the fittings a couple
of times. Should have taped the threads, but was in a hurry.


Update at 3hrs of soak under vaccuum. Pulled one piece out and cut off
a corner at a diagonal. In 3 of the directions there was 1/8" or more
(in one case probably 1/4") of penetration by the dye. On the last side
there wasn't much. But since the block was pretty small, it would
probably have been dyed throughout in a few more hours.

I put its partner back in along with some of my stopper blanks,
pulled the vaccuum back down and will check them in the morning.

--
Nobody Special

On Feb 2, 12:41 am, Nobody Special wrote:
Nobody Special wrote:

But since the block was pretty small, it would
probably have been dyed throughout in a few more hours.

I put its partner back in along with some of my stopper blanks,
pulled the vaccuum back down and will check them in the morning.

Hope you post your results! As I said before, I have soaked in dye
solution, but never vacuumed. I have a nice Gast that is not doing
anything at this time. This could be interesting.

Robert

On Feb 1, 8:41 pm, Tanus

Well said, Robert. Done with a lot of
class.

Thanks. I really like this group, and just a couple of the guys that
kept me turning when I lost interest are still here. This is a good
group. As far as internet newsgroups go, this is a great group.

For the most part, I do get what I came
for in this group. I'm not very active
because right now I'm mostly lurking and
sponging information. If, or as, my
skill level comes up, I'll probably be
more active. I'm not normally known as a
quiet member of any group for long.

Every group needs new blood and new opinions and experiences. To me,
this should be that venue for woodturners to fire away with whatever
idea that might happen to cross their mind, or their lathe.

I happen to like
unmoderated groups over the ones with
posts that can be pulled.

I actually prefer the unmoderated format, and in the end, it always
seems to take care of itself one way or another. Moderated groups
become more of a meeting place for a certain few after a while, and
while there is nothing wrong with that, it doesn't always make for
constructive sharing of ideas. Gets kinda tame, too.

They put up
with bull**** for a bit, and then don't
put up with it at all.

That's what is hard for me to accept. Some of the nicer guys that
participate get bullied or slammed hard and they just walk off. If
they are already successful turners, they are doing us all the favor
of sharing their knowledge. They are used to sharing their opinions,
not defending them. Quickly, participation in this group (or any
other) can look like a pointless exercise. And then we are all the
less for that lack of participation.

I hope you aren't reluctant to post. As you can see when an honest
question is asked, many jump up with great suggestions, no matter what
the subject. So I say, hammer away! You know by now how deep the
water is, right?

Robert

On Feb 2, 12:41 am, Nobody Special wrote:
Nobody Special wrote:

You have mail!

I hope.

Let me know here if you didn't get anything. It is 1:20 am CST at the
time of this post.

Robert

for the guy that thinks alcohol drying is rubbish, i wonder why they put
alcohol into fuel systems to remove moisture???
ross

"Ross Hebeisen" wrote in message
...
for the guy that thinks alcohol drying is rubbish, i wonder why they put
alcohol into fuel systems to remove moisture???
ross


Because water won't burn, while alcohol mixed with water up to a certain
"proof" will.

Now one for you. If alcohol works, why isn't industry using it?

Nobody Special wrote:
MB wrote:
You can create a sort of mini vacuum by warming the wood and
placing it into the dye. Lower pressure of the heated and
expanded
air will draw as it cools.


Reminds me of a industrial potato peeler at a french fry factory I
once visited for work. They load up a 1000lbs of potatoes in a
pressure vessel. Pressure it up to maybe 100 psi or so (can't
remember the exact amount), hold it for 5-10 minutes, then release
the pressure all at once. Blows the skin right off the potato.

Mitch


A coworker's wife used to work at the Lays plant
in Casa Grande, AZ. He repeated the stories
about watching for rabbits in the trainloads of incoming
potatoes.

Evidently rabbits look like potatoes to the picking machines.


"Picking machines"? Potatoes grow underground, they're dug, not
picked. Heres one kind of potato digger, complete with videos
http://www.potatoharvesterusa.com/.

Rabbits don't much like potatoes anyway, there are unlikely to be
rabbits in a potato field unless they're crossing it to get to
somewhere else.

Even if there is a rabbit in the field, I can't see it sticking around
when one of those things is coming down the row.

Not saying that no rabbit ever got caught in the potato harvest, but
it would be pretty rare.


I suspect he was spinning you a yarn.

But they make an awful mess when they hit the slicer.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Rabbits don't much like potatoes anyway, there are unlikely to be
rabbits in a potato field unless they're crossing it to get to
somewhere else.

Even if there is a rabbit in the field, I can't see it sticking around
when one of those things is coming down the row.

Not saying that no rabbit ever got caught in the potato harvest, but
it would be pretty rare.


I suspect he was spinning you a yarn.

But they make an awful mess when they hit the slicer.


Given the poisonous nature of the potato foliage, it is a good thing to
plant rows around a garden with rabbit problems. My problems are with deer,
so I plant the onions, shallots and garlic out on the edge.

Snakes in hay bales can be a real thrill, I can tell you that.

wrote:
On Feb 2, 12:41 am, Nobody Special wrote:

Nobody Special wrote:


You have mail!

I hope.

Let me know here if you didn't get anything. It is 1:20 am CST at the
time of this post.

Robert


Got it. Did you get my reply?

Nobody Special wrote:
Nobody Special wrote:

Update at 3hrs of soak under vaccuum. Pulled one piece out and cut off
a corner at a diagonal. In 3 of the directions there was 1/8" or more
(in one case probably 1/4") of penetration by the dye. On the last side
there wasn't much. But since the block was pretty small, it would
probably have been dyed throughout in a few more hours.

I put its partner back in along with some of my stopper blanks,
pulled the vaccuum back down and will check them in the morning.

After ~12-13 hrs I pulled the 2nd piece. Dyed throughout except
for some areas that were probably just due to it being a burl.

The stopper pieces I had in there were lighter than the commercial
pieces inside, but so far I've not turned through the dye.

--
Nobody Special

On Feb 3, 7:49 pm, Nobody Special wrote:


Got it. Did you get my reply?

Yep. Just got back in (Sunday night) and will put a couple of ideas
over to you in the morning.

Robert

Nobody Special wrote:
Nobody Special wrote:

3) I got a vacuum pump off craigslist today and after too
many trips to the BORG (I hate buying brass fittings there)
got a pickle jar dropped to where the blocks bubbled and sank
into the alcohol-dissolved transtint (liquid this time) dye.
(I don't have guages, so I don't know what in/Hg it was at).
Updates to follow tomorrow. I'll have to see how well the jar
holds vaccuum - so far I had to tighten down the fittings a couple
of times. Should have taped the threads, but was in a hurry.



Another data point: about 24 hours for a block ~1.5" thick and 2.25"
square. As far as I can tell it was saturated throughout- even after
drying for 24 hours. Turned real nicely and has better color than the
13 hour pieces. Still nowhere as vibrant as the commecial ones, but
good color.

Maybe in a few weeks I'll try to use slow curing resin so the
dye has something to keep it in once things dry.