Wou Who! In all candour, it occoured to me that I favour a rubour
colour in ordour to avoid the dolour of palloured tournings. Arrourgh!
this is bad humour. Plounk!


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I am still experimenting with LDD and alcohol baths. I have noticed
that both methods draw color out of the wood. My amber LDD is now dark.
The alcohol was a nice burgundy color after the first pieces of Madrone
went in. I have soaked black and English walnut, big leaf maple,
cherry, and Madrone. Results are pretty much the same except that the
LDD bowls are easier to sand. The alcohol is less messy and slimy, and
easier to drain off. I was wondering about glycerine as a bath. I
was/am considering adding the alcohol to the LDD. The jury is still out
for me. I am considering going back to just drying the blanks on a
shelf in the shop. No mess, no fuss, and the same success rates. I do
turn to finish thickness, and then sand out the warped blanks. I
haven't yet tried the boiling methods.
robo hippy

"robo hippy" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am still experimenting with LDD and alcohol baths. I have noticed
that both methods draw color out of the wood. My amber LDD is now dark.
The alcohol was a nice burgundy color after the first pieces of Madrone
went in. I have soaked black and English walnut, big leaf maple,
cherry, and Madrone. Results are pretty much the same except that the
LDD bowls are easier to sand. The alcohol is less messy and slimy, and
easier to drain off. I was wondering about glycerine as a bath. I
was/am considering adding the alcohol to the LDD. The jury is still out
for me. I am considering going back to just drying the blanks on a
shelf in the shop. No mess, no fuss, and the same success rates. I do
turn to finish thickness, and then sand out the warped blanks. I
haven't yet tried the boiling methods.
robo hippy


You're already using glycerine. It's the skin softener (humectant) added to
dish detergent.

http://groups.msn.com/NovaOwners/geo...nw?albumlist=2 Last picture
in the album to see how I handle mine. These are the ones I haven't put on
the shelf yet. No soaks, no coats, no bags, just ~65% relative humidity at
eye level. The hard maple cut 30 days ago is already under 15% MC, but
won't be re turned for quite a while, because I have hard maple left from
2003's delivery. I was getting low on cherry, which is why it's nice to
have the log I used and about six feet of usable wood left to cut on another

BTW, no checks showing. Basements are great. Before I had a basement, I
had to use a couple of transmitter crates.

"robo hippy" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am still experimenting with LDD and alcohol baths. I have noticed
that both methods draw color out of the wood. My amber LDD is now dark.
The alcohol was a nice burgundy color after the first pieces of Madrone
went in. I have soaked black and English walnut, big leaf maple,
cherry, and Madrone. Results are pretty much the same except that the
LDD bowls are easier to sand. The alcohol is less messy and slimy, and
easier to drain off. I was wondering about glycerine as a bath. I
was/am considering adding the alcohol to the LDD. The jury is still out
for me. I am considering going back to just drying the blanks on a
shelf in the shop. No mess, no fuss, and the same success rates. I do
turn to finish thickness, and then sand out the warped blanks. I
haven't yet tried the boiling methods.
robo hippy


Bravo for your experimenting. The color of the LDD solution does change as
a result of drawing out lignins from the wood, also the bark if you are
turning natural edged bowls may well dye the formerly yellow/amber/orange a
dark black or brown colour. I have not noticed any transfer of this to the
various types of wood that I have processed through there. Those who
complain about the "mess," are just not handling it properly. Alcohol was
added to the mix also, earlier on and it was determined not to have any
additional beneficient results. I have never tried straight alcohol baths.
Boiling??? And you talk about a mess and a fuss!!!*G*

Leif

"Leif Thorvaldson" wrote in message
...
The color of the LDD solution does change as
a result of drawing out lignins from the wood, also the bark if you are
turning natural edged bowls may well dye the formerly yellow/amber/orange
a dark black or brown colour. I have not noticed any transfer of this to
the various types of wood that I have processed through there.

Lignin takes sulphuric acid to dissolve, so I'm sure Leif means the tannins
and other soluble extractives that accumulate in the darker heartwood. They
come out more readily because of that other ingredient, the detergent.
Wetter water increases solubility.

"George" George@least wrote in message
...

"Leif Thorvaldson" wrote in message
...
The color of the LDD solution does change as
a result of drawing out lignins from the wood, also the bark if you are
turning natural edged bowls may well dye the formerly yellow/amber/orange
a dark black or brown colour. I have not noticed any transfer of this to
the various types of wood that I have processed through there.

Lignin takes sulphuric acid to dissolve, so I'm sure Leif means the
tannins and other soluble extractives that accumulate in the darker
heartwood. They come out more readily because of that other ingredient,
the detergent. Wetter water increases solubility.

===== Yup! George is right. Thought tannin and wrote lignin. Tannin is
that particular culprit!

Leif

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:50:21 -0700, "Leif Thorvaldson" wrote:

Bravo for your experimenting. The color of the LDD solution does change as
a result of drawing out lignins from the wood, also the bark if you are
turning natural edged bowls may well dye the formerly yellow/amber/orange a
dark black or brown colour. I have not noticed any transfer of this to the
various types of wood that I have processed through there. Those who
complain about the "mess," are just not handling it properly. Alcohol was
added to the mix also, earlier on and it was determined not to have any
additional beneficient results. I have never tried straight alcohol baths.
Boiling??? And you talk about a mess and a fuss!!!*G*

Leif

hey Madge...
just to add to your data, I've been turning some very pretty buy very crack
prone local ash, and wish that I hadn't put any of it into the LDD....

It's a bright white wood with a weird, almost green dark grain running through
it... very nice contrast...

As I mentioned, the LDD has been turning black, all 6 of the rough-turned ash
bowls that went in the LDD are now "grayscale"... the white is gray and the dark
brown/green is black!
Finish turning and sanding makes them a lighter gray and a flat black...
original color and luster is gone... yuk!


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:41:47 -0400, (Arch) wrote:

Wou Who! In all candour, it occoured to me that I favour a rubour
colour in ordour to avoid the dolour of palloured tournings. Arrourgh!
this is bad humour. Plounk!

HaH!


--
Chuck *#:^)
chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.


September 11, 2001 - Never Forget

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:50:21 -0700, "Leif Thorvaldson"
wrote:

Bravo for your experimenting. The color of the LDD solution does change
as
a result of drawing out lignins from the wood, also the bark if you are
turning natural edged bowls may well dye the formerly yellow/amber/orange
a
dark black or brown colour. I have not noticed any transfer of this to
the
various types of wood that I have processed through there. Those who
complain about the "mess," are just not handling it properly. Alcohol was
added to the mix also, earlier on and it was determined not to have any
additional beneficient results. I have never tried straight alcohol
baths.
Boiling??? And you talk about a mess and a fuss!!!*G*

Leif

hey Madge...
just to add to your data, I've been turning some very pretty buy very
crack
prone local ash, and wish that I hadn't put any of it into the LDD....

It's a bright white wood with a weird, almost green dark grain running
through
it... very nice contrast...

As I mentioned, the LDD has been turning black, all 6 of the rough-turned
ash
bowls that went in the LDD are now "grayscale"... the white is gray and
the dark
brown/green is black!
Finish turning and sanding makes them a lighter gray and a flat black...
original color and luster is gone... yuk!


mac

====Not sure what to tell you, mac. Some of my first turning wood was a
white ash, straight from the vw mill of a friend of mine. It went through
the LDD just fine. I have had basically the same mix for four years, I
believe, though have not done any turning in going on three. What brand of
LDD are you using??? Also, the LDD only penetrates a few cells deep and
should have been turned or sanded off in the process. Unless the tannin is
penetrating deeper, which hasn't happened in my experience, and dyeing lower
levels???

Condolences,

Leif

Thanks Chuck,

I reread my post tonight and although I didn't intend to insult Who, it
wasn't funny and I may have offended him. The ng being what it is,
others may not have appreciated my silly and puerile OT side track.
Actually, I hesitated whether to post it. When I have to wonder about
posting something, it's prudent not to.

To Who and anyone disgusted by my post, my sincere apology.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:01:26 -0700, "Leif Thorvaldson" wrote:


"mac davis" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:50:21 -0700, "Leif Thorvaldson"
wrote:

Bravo for your experimenting. The color of the LDD solution does change
as
a result of drawing out lignins from the wood, also the bark if you are
turning natural edged bowls may well dye the formerly yellow/amber/orange
a
dark black or brown colour. I have not noticed any transfer of this to
the
various types of wood that I have processed through there. Those who
complain about the "mess," are just not handling it properly. Alcohol was
added to the mix also, earlier on and it was determined not to have any
additional beneficient results. I have never tried straight alcohol
baths.
Boiling??? And you talk about a mess and a fuss!!!*G*

Leif

hey Madge...
just to add to your data, I've been turning some very pretty buy very
crack
prone local ash, and wish that I hadn't put any of it into the LDD....

It's a bright white wood with a weird, almost green dark grain running
through
it... very nice contrast...

As I mentioned, the LDD has been turning black, all 6 of the rough-turned
ash
bowls that went in the LDD are now "grayscale"... the white is gray and
the dark
brown/green is black!
Finish turning and sanding makes them a lighter gray and a flat black...
original color and luster is gone... yuk!


mac

====Not sure what to tell you, mac. Some of my first turning wood was a
white ash, straight from the vw mill of a friend of mine. It went through
the LDD just fine. I have had basically the same mix for four years, I
believe, though have not done any turning in going on three. What brand of
LDD are you using??? Also, the LDD only penetrates a few cells deep and
should have been turned or sanded off in the process. Unless the tannin is
penetrating deeper, which hasn't happened in my experience, and dyeing lower
levels???

Condolences,

Leif


it was Smart & Final's house brand.. my wife decided that the 5 gallon size was
a good deal... had it mixed 1:3 in plastic containers...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Arch wrote:
Thanks Chuck,

I reread my post tonight and although I didn't intend to insult Who, it
wasn't funny and I may have offended him. The ng being what it is,
others may not have appreciated my silly and puerile OT side track.
Actually, I hesitated whether to post it. When I have to wonder about
posting something, it's prudent not to.

To Who and anyone disgusted by my post, my sincere apology.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

Arch, Arch, Arch. Waht are we going to do with you. I try to lead you
down the One True Path of Crusty Ol' Cootism, and instead you persist in
being a Cordial Ol' Codger. Sigh. The esteemed Order of COCs will
never be the same...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:01:26 -0700, "Leif Thorvaldson"
wrote:


"mac davis" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:50:21 -0700, "Leif Thorvaldson"

wrote:

Bravo for your experimenting. The color of the LDD solution does change
as
a result of drawing out lignins from the wood, also the bark if you are
turning natural edged bowls may well dye the formerly
yellow/amber/orange
a
dark black or brown colour. I have not noticed any transfer of this to
the
various types of wood that I have processed through there. Those who
complain about the "mess," are just not handling it properly. Alcohol
was
added to the mix also, earlier on and it was determined not to have any
additional beneficient results. I have never tried straight alcohol
baths.
Boiling??? And you talk about a mess and a fuss!!!*G*

Leif

hey Madge...
just to add to your data, I've been turning some very pretty buy very
crack
prone local ash, and wish that I hadn't put any of it into the LDD....

It's a bright white wood with a weird, almost green dark grain running
through
it... very nice contrast...

As I mentioned, the LDD has been turning black, all 6 of the
rough-turned
ash
bowls that went in the LDD are now "grayscale"... the white is gray and
the dark
brown/green is black!
Finish turning and sanding makes them a lighter gray and a flat black...
original color and luster is gone... yuk!


mac

====Not sure what to tell you, mac. Some of my first turning wood was a
white ash, straight from the vw mill of a friend of mine. It went through
the LDD just fine. I have had basically the same mix for four years, I
believe, though have not done any turning in going on three. What brand
of
LDD are you using??? Also, the LDD only penetrates a few cells deep and
should have been turned or sanded off in the process. Unless the tannin
is
penetrating deeper, which hasn't happened in my experience, and dyeing
lower
levels???

Condolences,

Leif


it was Smart & Final's house brand.. my wife decided that the 5 gallon
size was
a good deal... had it mixed 1:3 in plastic containers...


mac

Ah, hah!! When a potion is being mixed, one should follow the directions.
When it calls for eye of newt and toe of frog, it is not asking for eye of
round and pig's knuckles! The elixir of Kirkland Brand LDD, is strongly
suggested in the World-famous treatise and no warranties or guaranties are
implied or promised. *G* In my experience, the ratio is best left at 1:1,
although others have claimed success with a lesser amount of LDD.

Leif

My respects Capt'n Miller, sir.

Being sent to the Captain's mast to have my stripes stripped in front of
the assembled Order ain't fun. I am sorry my cordial performance
embarrased COC. Somebody put soda in my scotch before 'The Post'. The
only apology I make now is to The Order of COC. To anyone else reading
without permission, HAH!


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch wrote:
My respects Capt'n Miller, sir.

Being sent to the Captain's mast to have my stripes stripped in front of
the assembled Order ain't fun. I am sorry my cordial performance
embarrased COC. Somebody put soda in my scotch before 'The Post'. The
only apology I make now is to The Order of COC. To anyone else reading
without permission, HAH!

Well, what the heck. We'll let this one slide, since I'm in a
particularly good mood tonight. Just try not to overdo it on the soda
next time.

Hmmm, this cordiality stuff seems to be more catching than the asian
bird flu and I didn't have any soda or scotch. Now ya got me worried...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

Leif,
How do you handle it to keep it from being a mess. I could see having a
sub-station in the shop dedicated to the LDD processing, but it is
already tight in there, and some one went and won my $350 million
lottery jackpot again. Do you put a rack over the barrel of soap? I am
doing 5 to 20 bowls at a time, so the properly sized rack would be
bigger than the barrel. I hand squeegy off as much as I can, and then
take them to the kitchen sink to rinse them off. With the alcohol, I
shake them off a few times over the pit, and they are almost dry and I
don't have to rinse my hands off.

As far as the color in the soap, there has to be some transfer. If the
pigments are soap soluable, then they will mix. I had one madrone bowl
in the alcohol bath. The alcohol didn't cover the top of the bowl. I
scooped more alcohol into the bowl until it was full. The next day, the
alcohol in the bowl was level with that on the outside. After it dried
and was sanded, there was a very noticable difference in the color
above (darker) and the color below (lighter). On the whole, the bowl
was darker than I expected it to be. It was all darker than what I
would expected an air dried bowl to be. There had been black walnut in
there before the Madrone. I need to get a digital camera to I can show
pictures, and plan to do a more clinical test of the processes.
robo hippy

"robo hippy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Leif,
How do you handle it to keep it from being a mess. I could see having a
sub-station in the shop dedicated to the LDD processing, but it is
already tight in there, and some one went and won my $350 million
lottery jackpot again. Do you put a rack over the barrel of soap? I am
doing 5 to 20 bowls at a time, so the properly sized rack would be
bigger than the barrel. I hand squeegy off as much as I can, and then
take them to the kitchen sink to rinse them off. With the alcohol, I
shake them off a few times over the pit, and they are almost dry and I
don't have to rinse my hands off.

As far as the color in the soap, there has to be some transfer. If the
pigments are soap soluable, then they will mix. I had one madrone bowl
in the alcohol bath. The alcohol didn't cover the top of the bowl. I
scooped more alcohol into the bowl until it was full. The next day, the
alcohol in the bowl was level with that on the outside. After it dried
and was sanded, there was a very noticable difference in the color
above (darker) and the color below (lighter). On the whole, the bowl
was darker than I expected it to be. It was all darker than what I
would expected an air dried bowl to be. There had been black walnut in
there before the Madrone. I need to get a digital camera to I can show
pictures, and plan to do a more clinical test of the processes.
robo hippy

====RH! First of all, you should be aware of the fact that when I turn wood
it is as a hobby turner, so I seldom have many things in the "soup" at the
same time! The most I have crowded in were 8 salad bowls when I was making
sets for my nieces. I purchased a fairly heavy duty plastic, lidded storage
chest from Lowes, or HD. It measures about 3' long, 2' wide and about 1.5
feet deep. In that, I placed 2 gals of Kirkland Brand LDD and 2 gals of
water into it. Filling it approximately halfway.Whenever I planned to turn
an item that I had placed in the chest, I would remove it wearing a pair of
household dishwashing gloves that I have nearby dedicated for it. In the
case of the salad bowls, I would lay a few more on hardware cloth or a stiff
galvanized screening that I put on top of the open chest and allow these to
drip dry for 15 minutes to 2 hours depending on my schedule. Depending on
the wood (with or without bark) these would drip dry enough that a paper
shop towel would remove any excess left. I would then mount it on the lathe
and at very slow speed use the paper shop towel and to remove more any
excess, gradually increasing the speed. Some spatter will occur and if you
are the neat and tidy type, perhaps a plastic drop cloth should be hung
behind the lathe and over the ways. I will use a couple of shop towels laid
over the ways. The forward spatter falls to the shop floor where ample
sawdust absorbs it.

As to your observations of a bowl from an alcohol bath, the only reason I
can think of for the darker band at the top and the lighter at the bottom is
that oxidation occurred in the air exposed portion of the bowl and the
bottom was kept lighter due to less to no oxidation occurring in the alcohol
solution. As to the dyes in the LDD, as I believe I stated before, I took
similar chunks of different woods and brushed LDD on them and allowed them
to dry overnight in the shop. I could discern little to no coloring of the
wood. If anything, perhaps a golden cast to the wood. This was basically
on the surface and scraped off with minimal effort. I have found that the
LDD is basically turned away from the wood and there doesn't appear to be
any dyeing of the underlaying cell structure. Now with dark dyed LDD --
red, green, etc, I would expect the dye to be more noticeable. I have
received two reports of the Green Palmolive leaving a greenish cast to the
turned wood, so I have never experimented with it myself.

I look forward to you putting pix up showing your process.

Leif

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:02:20 -0700, "Leif Thorvaldson" wrote:

it was Smart & Final's house brand.. my wife decided that the 5 gallon
size was
a good deal... had it mixed 1:3 in plastic containers...


mac

Ah, hah!! When a potion is being mixed, one should follow the directions.
When it calls for eye of newt and toe of frog, it is not asking for eye of
round and pig's knuckles! The elixir of Kirkland Brand LDD, is strongly
suggested in the World-famous treatise and no warranties or guaranties are
implied or promised. *G* In my experience, the ratio is best left at 1:1,
although others have claimed success with a lesser amount of LDD.

Leif

yup... I asked her to get me a gallon on her next trip to costco... she
"compared" a gallon of that to a 5 gallon can of the S&F stuff and went for the
"better deal"..

the 2 worst things that a wife can say in a store... "it's cute" or "it's on
sale"


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On 23 Oct 2005 11:35:15 -0700, "robo hippy" wrote:

Leif,
How do you handle it to keep it from being a mess. I could see having a
sub-station in the shop dedicated to the LDD processing, but it is
already tight in there, and some one went and won my $350 million
lottery jackpot again. Do you put a rack over the barrel of soap? I am
doing 5 to 20 bowls at a time, so the properly sized rack would be
bigger than the barrel. I hand squeegy off as much as I can, and then
take them to the kitchen sink to rinse them off. With the alcohol, I
shake them off a few times over the pit, and they are almost dry and I
don't have to rinse my hands off.

As far as the color in the soap, there has to be some transfer. If the
pigments are soap soluable, then they will mix. I had one madrone bowl
in the alcohol bath. The alcohol didn't cover the top of the bowl. I
scooped more alcohol into the bowl until it was full. The next day, the
alcohol in the bowl was level with that on the outside. After it dried
and was sanded, there was a very noticable difference in the color
above (darker) and the color below (lighter). On the whole, the bowl
was darker than I expected it to be. It was all darker than what I
would expected an air dried bowl to be. There had been black walnut in
there before the Madrone. I need to get a digital camera to I can show
pictures, and plan to do a more clinical test of the processes.
robo hippy

I sort of gave up on the LDD, but what worked for me at the time were some
medium sized (I think they were about 2 gallon) rectangular tubs from wally
world with snap-on lids.. (on sale for like $5 each)
I set them outside under a patio cover, both to save shop room and to keep
spills, etc. out of the shop..

The drying racks were dumb looking, but built out of junk in the yard...
I heated 1/2" plastic pipe with the heat gun, made sorta round hoops bigger than
the containers and wrapped with heavy string in enough directions to keep bowls
from falling back in..

I'd drain them anywhere from 1/2 an hour to over night... didn't seem to effect
the results, but longer was better for the shop, as long as they still felt
damp.. YMMV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"Kevin Miller" wrote in message
...

SNIP ................
Hmmm, this cordiality stuff seems to be more catching than the asian bird
flu and I didn't have any soda or scotch. Now ya got me worried...

...Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357
==============================
Kevin,
Have you heard of any bird flu up in the Artic region? I heard that they
were expecting it to show up in the South bound migratory bird flyways.
Maybe it won't get there til next year.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

Ken Moon wrote:
"Kevin Miller" wrote in message
...

SNIP ................
Hmmm, this cordiality stuff seems to be more catching than the asian bird
flu and I didn't have any soda or scotch. Now ya got me worried...

...Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357
==============================
Kevin,
Have you heard of any bird flu up in the Artic region? I heard that they
were expecting it to show up in the South bound migratory bird flyways.
Maybe it won't get there til next year.

Actually I haven't yet. Not sure it's made it to the Americas yet at
all, but could be wrong. So far even the regular flu hasn't made a big
debut which is fine by me! Don't know about the European and Asian
arctic but I suspect that it won't hit up there until spring when the
birds in the lower latitudes migrate. They're all going the other
direction right now...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357