"Lobster" wrote
| I want to apply sound insulation to an internal soil pipe, which runs
| vertically from ceiling to floor. I've built a timber frame around it,
| which I'm going to cover with two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard and
| have skimmed. I know the ideal way would be to fill the boxing with
| sand to deaden the sound, but that would cause too much grief (can't
| quite imagine filling up all my boxing - which has to be quite
| large - with sand; plus there's a rodding eye at the base for which
| access is needed). So I propose to fill the void with Rockwool.

Sounds good. Esp if the pipe is plastic, I'd suggest stiffening it by
glueing some of those deadening felt panels used in loudspeaker cabinets
around it. Probably won't need to be completely covered, but should deaden
the noise of upstair's turds flowing down inside the wall as you're trying
to enjoy a radox moment.

Alternatively/as well, box round the rodding eye and then fill the cavity
with e-x-p-a-n-d-i-n-g foam.

Owain

Owain wrote

Alternatively/as well, box round the rodding eye and then fill the cavity
with e-x-p-a-n-d-i-n-g foam.

OMG that needs rewording. Whatever you do, don't FILL it!!! It only needs a
little - just enough so that it's filled AFTER the foam has expanded otherwise a
disaster awaits. (Read the FAQ) ;o)

Peter

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
I want to apply sound insulation to an internal soil pipe, which runs
vertically from ceiling to floor. I've built a timber frame around it,
which I'm going to cover with two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard and have
skimmed. I know the ideal way would be to fill the boxing with sand to
deaden the sound, but that would cause too much grief (can't quite imagine
filling up all my boxing - which has to be quite large - with sand; plus
there's a rodding eye at the base for which access is needed). So I
propose to fill the void with Rockwool.

Question is - should I insert Rockwool in it's 'natural' state, ie, unpack
the stuff and let it expand to its maximum, and not allow any compression
when I put it round the pipe (which I know would be best if I was dealing
with thermal insulation here), or should I cram as much Rockwool into the
void as I possible can? Would that be better/worse/similar to option 1?
The stuff is pretty dear, so I don't want to overstuff the boxing if it's
not going to be beneficial.

Thanks
David



I've never used it, but there is plasterboard that it designed to work as a
sound check (a bit like the fire check plasterboard) there might be some
info on the lafarge website.

Have fun

Phil

On Sun, 30 May 2004 07:14:21 +0000 (UTC), Philip Roberts wrote:

I've built a timber frame around it, which I'm going to cover with
two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard and have skimmed.

Don't forget access, not just for maintenance you mention a rodding
eye but you also have a hand between floors cable duct for phone,
network, TV etc. It almost certainly runs from roof space to ground
floor as well...

Question is - should I insert Rockwool in it's 'natural' state, ie,
unpack the stuff and let it expand to its maximum,
snip
should I cram as much Rockwool into the void as I possible can?

TBH two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard are going to do far more than a
bit of rockwool no matter how much or little you put in. Make sure
that there are no holes/cracks for the sopund to sneak through as
well. Stagger and board joints buy as much as possible indeed I'd be
tempted to seal the edges of the lower layer of board before putting
the top layer on and seall all those edges as well.

I've never used it, but there is plasterboard that it designed to
work as a sound check (a bit like the fire check plasterboard) there
might be some info on the lafarge website.

Worth looking at I would have thought or maybe some heavy matting to
sandwich between the PB layers.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:42:28 +0100, Peter Taylor wrote:

Alternatively/as well, box round the rodding eye and then fill the
cavity with e-x-p-a-n-d-i-n-g foam.

OMG that needs rewording. Whatever you do, don't FILL it!!! It
only needs a little - just enough so that it's filled AFTER the foam
has expanded otherwise a disaster awaits. (Read the FAQ) ;o)

The FAQ is a good story but doesn't help with advice on that stuff.
The instructs on Polycell stuff are also a bit vague as I found out.
Used some for the first time the other week, the gotchas a

Don't be decieved by the amount it expands from the end of the tube in
the first 10 to 20s after being squirted. It may *look* like the 2.5
times expansion mentioned in the instuctions but the instructions
don't tell you they measure from *after* that initial expansion not
from the tube size. So only half fill the space with that inital
expansion...

Dont touch the stuff with anything, it is *incredibly* sticky, though
doesn't adhere particulary well once cured. Apart from skin or finger
nails that is! I still have a tiny bit on a finger nail after 3 weeks.
Next time I use any I'll cover my hands with vegetable oil first,
hopefully that will reduce the instant adheshion and help removal...

Don't be too fussy about cleaning out the tubes, it doesn't stick to
them. Far easier to clean after curing and a lot less messy. It was
this cleaning operation that got me in contact with the stuff.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Mon, 31 May 2004 09:56:25 +0100, "Lobster"
wrote:


Can anyone comment on my original Q above - how much Rockwool to use?

If you are using double plasterboard the rockwool will make no
appreciable difference. What will make a difference is making sure
every single joint in the boxing is perfectly sealed and airtight.
If you want to use a filler there is a variety of Rockwool made in
slabs rather than rolls deigned for noise insulation in stud
partition walls. That is likely to have more effect than insulating
material.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Lobster" wrote
| Thanks to Owain for the suggestion about using speaker wadding;
| a good idea too although I wonder if it would it be much better
| than Rockwool (given that I already have the Rockwool and would
| have to source and buy the acoustic wadding!).

Not wadding (which is what the rockwool will do) but heavy felt panels stuck
to the pipe to reduce resonance and stop the pipe sounding like a digeridoo.
They're stuck to the inside of door panels in cars etc to dampen vibration.

Owain

I want to apply sound insulation to an internal soil pipe, which runs
vertically from ceiling to floor. I've built a timber frame around it,
which I'm going to cover with two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard and have
skimmed. I know the ideal way would be to fill the boxing with sand to
deaden the sound, but that would cause too much grief (can't quite imagine
filling up all my boxing - which has to be quite large - with sand; plus
there's a rodding eye at the base for which access is needed). So I
propose to fill the void with Rockwool.

Question is - should I insert Rockwool in it's 'natural' state, ie, unpack
the stuff and let it expand to its maximum, and not allow any compression
when I put it round the pipe (which I know would be best if I was dealing
with thermal insulation here), or should I cram as much Rockwool into the
void as I possible can? Would that be better/worse/similar to option 1?
The stuff is pretty dear, so I don't want to overstuff the boxing if it's
not going to be beneficial.

Thanks
David

Lobster wrote:
I want to apply sound insulation to an internal soil pipe, which runs
vertically from ceiling to floor. I've built a timber frame around it,
which I'm going to cover with two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard and have
skimmed. I know the ideal way would be to fill the boxing with sand to
deaden the sound, but that would cause too much grief (can't quite imagine
filling up all my boxing - which has to be quite large - with sand; plus
there's a rodding eye at the base for which access is needed). So I
propose to fill the void with Rockwool.

The absolute best improvement you could probably get (other than sand)
would be to decouple the two layers of plasterboard from each other a
bit.
This would stop sound travelling directly from one to the other.
I don't know the architecture, but would putting the first layer of
plasterboard on, and then building a second structure, only connected to
the first at top and bottom around it, on which the second layer is
connected be possible?

I've also found it's helpful to blow out the tube on the top of the
aerosol can with an air line before the foam sets. Be careful where it
goes, though...

I bought a brand that came with 2 different size nozzles. You get 2 goes
without having to clean. Now if someone comes out with a can with 5 nozzles
attached to the side, I'll be happy. Life is too short to clean those little
b*stards.

Christian.

On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:07:28 +0100, Christian McArdle wrote:

I bought a brand that came with 2 different size nozzles. You get 2
goes without having to clean.

So did I on the basis it was the same price as another brand with only
one nozzle...

I'll be happy. Life is too short to clean those little b*stards.

Wait until it's cured, roll the tube between your hands squidging it
slightly unscrew from the trigger bit and the foam will just pull out.
Small screw driver will dig/push the rest out of the trigger half.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:07:28 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

I've also found it's helpful to blow out the tube on the top of the
aerosol can with an air line before the foam sets. Be careful where it
goes, though...

I bought a brand that came with 2 different size nozzles. You get 2 goes
without having to clean. Now if someone comes out with a can with 5 nozzles
attached to the side, I'll be happy. Life is too short to clean those little
b*stards.

Christian.


So you might not use all the can, and next time need to buy
another.......



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Philip Roberts" pjr@ k e a n e r o b e r t s . d o t c o ....GreatBritain
wrote in message ...

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
I want to apply sound insulation to an internal soil pipe, which runs
vertically from ceiling to floor. I've built a timber frame around it,
which I'm going to cover with two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard and have
skimmed. I know the ideal way would be to fill the boxing with sand to
deaden the sound, but that would cause too much grief (can't quite
imagine
filling up all my boxing - which has to be quite large - with sand; plus
there's a rodding eye at the base for which access is needed). So I
propose to fill the void with Rockwool.

Question is - should I insert Rockwool in it's 'natural' state, ie,
unpack
the stuff and let it expand to its maximum, and not allow any
compression
when I put it round the pipe (which I know would be best if I was
dealing
with thermal insulation here), or should I cram as much Rockwool into
the
void as I possible can? Would that be better/worse/similar to option
1?
The stuff is pretty dear, so I don't want to overstuff the boxing if
it's
not going to be beneficial.


I've never used it, but there is plasterboard that it designed to work as
a
sound check (a bit like the fire check plasterboard) there might be some
info on the lafarge website.

That's a good thought; however the BCO has already decreed the use of two
layers of plasterboard (as being equivalent to fire-check board which my
application needs, for reasons I won't go into here.)

Thanks to Owain for the suggestion about using speaker wadding; a good idea
too although I wonder if it would it be much better than Rockwool (given
that I already have the Rockwool and would have to source and buy the
acoustic wadding!). I think I'll pass on the expanding foam - bit too
'permanent' for my liking; if it turns out not to work as well as hoped I'd
be stuffed.

Can anyone comment on my original Q above - how much Rockwool to use?

Cheers
David

Ian Stirling wrote in message ...
Lobster wrote:
I want to apply sound insulation to an internal soil pipe, which runs
vertically from ceiling to floor. I've built a timber frame around it,
which I'm going to cover with two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard and have
skimmed. I know the ideal way would be to fill the boxing with sand to
deaden the sound, but that would cause too much grief (can't quite imagine
filling up all my boxing - which has to be quite large - with sand; plus
there's a rodding eye at the base for which access is needed). So I
propose to fill the void with Rockwool.

The absolute best improvement you could probably get (other than sand)
would be to decouple the two layers of plasterboard from each other a
bit.
This would stop sound travelling directly from one to the other.
I don't know the architecture, but would putting the first layer of
plasterboard on, and then building a second structure, only connected to
the first at top and bottom around it, on which the second layer is
connected be possible?


Or perhaps glue on a layer of under-laminate-floor 3mm sound absorbing
sheet, then glue your last PB layer onto that. Dont screw through it,
as that will largely defeat the working of the mat. Note I havent
tried this. Also note that each measure will help some, so a
combination of approaches is what will produce best results.

Regards, NT

In message qSDuc.34$cN.16@newsfe2-win, Lobster
writes
Incidentally I notice that as well as conventional cans, Screwfix do 'gun
grade' foam (ref 18821) plus a gun (ref 14315) and foam cleaner (ref 12040).
Has anyone tried this? Or is it just a lot of hassle compared with normal
aerosols and disposable applicators?

David


I used it a year or so back and found it a pleasure not to have to keep
worrying about keeping the nozzle clear. It was simply a matter of
putting some of the cleaner through to remove any residue. That said the
cleaner did leak a bit when attached to the gun.

On a rather amusing note I did some work for my 84 year old father last
month and used a small amount of foam from a rather large can. Not
having a use for the rest of the can I put it in the bin as I had no
expectation of it lasting until it may be needed again. Any father
remembering that you should not put pressurised containers in the bin
decided to release the pressure by piercing the can with a garden fork.
Apparently it was quite spectacular!!!!!!!!
--
Bill

"Bill" wrote
| And father remembering that you should not put pressurised containers
| in the bin decided to release the pressure by piercing the can with
| a garden fork.
| Apparently it was quite spectacular!!!!!!!!

How many cans would I have to conceal in my wheeliebin to give the crusher
on the bin lorry something to think about?

Owain

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...
I've also found it's helpful to blow out the tube on the top of the
aerosol can with an air line before the foam sets. Be careful where it
goes, though...

I bought a brand that came with 2 different size nozzles. You get 2 goes
without having to clean. Now if someone comes out with a can with 5
nozzles
attached to the side, I'll be happy. Life is too short to clean those
little
b*stards.


I agree - or why don't they sell spare nozzles...?!! I'd happily buy them
in packs to avoid cleaning them up. When I bought some recently at Wickes
I actually had a job finding a can with a nozzle attached, presumably
because others had helped themselves to 'spares' to use on half-used cans.

Incidentally I notice that as well as conventional cans, Screwfix do 'gun
grade' foam (ref 18821) plus a gun (ref 14315) and foam cleaner (ref 12040).
Has anyone tried this? Or is it just a lot of hassle compared with normal
aerosols and disposable applicators?

David

Dave Liquorice wrote:
Philip Roberts wrote:
I've built a timber frame around it, which I'm going to cover
with two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard and have skimmed.
Question is - should I insert Rockwool in it's 'natural'
state, ie, unpack the stuff and let it expand to its maximum,
should I cram as much Rockwool into the void as I possible can?

TBH two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard are going to do far more
than a bit of rockwool no matter how much or little you put in.

I agree - however, I would still pack in some rockwool, it might
help dampen vibration in the pipe. Maybe ruberoid/capping felt
would help (*messy*)!

Make sure that there are no holes/cracks for the sopund to sneak
through as well.

Very important.


J.B.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Sun, 30 May 2004 07:14:21 +0000 (UTC), Philip Roberts wrote:

I've built a timber frame around it, which I'm going to cover with
two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard and have skimmed.

Don't forget access, not just for maintenance you mention a rodding
eye but you also have a hand between floors cable duct for phone,
network, TV etc. It almost certainly runs from roof space to ground
floor as well...

Question is - should I insert Rockwool in it's 'natural' state, ie,
unpack the stuff and let it expand to its maximum,
snip
should I cram as much Rockwool into the void as I possible can?

TBH two layers of 12.5mm plasterboard are going to do far more than a
bit of rockwool no matter how much or little you put in. Make sure
that there are no holes/cracks for the sopund to sneak through as
well. Stagger and board joints buy as much as possible indeed I'd be
tempted to seal the edges of the lower layer of board before putting
the top layer on and seall all those edges as well.

Thanks for this; all sounds very sensible and have done all the above today.
After reading this and the other replies I decided that my access panel was
likely to negate much of the good work, so after much thought I've made this
only "semi" removable, in that it has three layers - MDF innermost, which
nestles snugly within the timber studding; then a larger square plate of
plasterboard (about 0.5" larger all round); then a second plasterboard
plate, 0.5" larger all round than the first. I carefully cut the two plates
out from the plasterboard I used for the actual boxing in, so they are a
precise fit. When the panel is inserted into the matching hole, it's flush
on the outside, and there is therefore a double-stepped interface to prevent
sound leakage. The plan now is for the plasterer to skim over the whole
lot, and he'll just score a line along where the gap is, to define the edge
of the panel (held in by dome-capped mirror screws). In the unlikely event
of my ever needing to access the rodding eye (I've never needed to do so
before in my life!) I'll have to break the plaster seal, but meanwhile, the
soundproofing should be pretty good.

Worth looking at I would have thought or maybe some heavy matting to
sandwich between the PB layers.

Sounds a good one but the BCO specified two back-to-back layers of PB to
give the requisite amount of fire protection (BCO isn't concerned about the
noisy turd issue!)

David