On Fri, 7 May 2021 14:39:02 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 07/05/2021 09:56, RJH wrote:


I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely a
mention in this thread - just money.

But sticking a label on something saying vegan or organic often doesn't
mean those products are any better for animal welfare

In general, 'vegan; does. Organic means little (as the animals are
still killed against their will).

or sustainable
farming,

All science mate.

or for climate change with all the food miles they travel.

Of course, but moving animals 1000 miles means it has to be done with
them alive ... or dead and typically frozen, moving most veg require
neither.

But food miles is a different discussion to the one of causing
unnecessary suffering, exploitation and death to animals.

Animals != food (other than to obligate carnivores).

Cheers, T i m

On 06/05/2021 22:03, Owain Lastname wrote:

I've got a stack of tinned fruit I bought as it was reduced.

I vary rarely eat tinned fruit, I just convince myself I do. I blame
the episode of Porridge for convincing me subconsciously that a tin
of pineapple chunks is a sought-after commodity.

Goes nicely with Gammon... (steaks or roast)




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , T i m
wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 05:55:29 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:23:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
Venison is one of the most animal-friendly and environment-friendly
meats to eat.
'Animal friendly', killing it? It's just that I'm sure it would
rather be doing what they do than laying in pieces on your plate?

It could live starving in a hedge somewhere, which is what happens when
deer aren't managed.

Oh, I wonder how they managed for the thousands (millions?) of years
before we arrived?

Wolves did the management.

And what when we take that further and more intensively farm them like
we do with cows, pigs, sheep and chickens?

Not sure that will ever be possible.

We camped near a 'reindeer farm' about 20 years ago so it's been possible
to some level for a long time.

A lot of venison sold in the UK is farmed in New Zealand. I'd rather see
and support UK production.

So would I, production of food without all the cruelty, exploitation and
death.

Cheers, T i m

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 07/05/2021 18:03, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 05:55:29 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:23:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
Venison is one of the most animal-friendly and environment-friendly meats to eat.
'Animal friendly', killing it? It's just that I'm sure it would
rather be doing what they do than laying in pieces on your plate?

It could live starving in a hedge somewhere, which is what happens when deer aren't managed.

Oh, I wonder how they managed for the thousands (millions?) of years
before we arrived?

And what when we take that further and more intensively farm them like
we do with cows, pigs, sheep and chickens?

Not sure that will ever be possible.

We camped near a 'reindeer farm' about 20 years ago so it's been
possible to some level for a long time.

A lot of venison sold in the UK is farmed in New Zealand. I'd rather see and support UK production.

So would I, production of food without all the cruelty, exploitation
and death.

Death is a certainty, pain and suffering are optional. Shame you don't
care about animal welfare while the animal is alive.

On Fri, 07 May 2021 19:20:34 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article , T i m
wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 05:55:29 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:23:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
Venison is one of the most animal-friendly and environment-friendly
meats to eat.
'Animal friendly', killing it? It's just that I'm sure it would
rather be doing what they do than laying in pieces on your plate?

It could live starving in a hedge somewhere, which is what happens when
deer aren't managed.

Oh, I wonder how they managed for the thousands (millions?) of years
before we arrived?

Wolves did the management.

And what happened to the wolves ...

Cheers, T i m

On 07/05/2021 18:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 14:39:02 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 07/05/2021 09:56, RJH wrote:


I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely a
mention in this thread - just money.

But sticking a label on something saying vegan or organic often doesn't
mean those products are any better for animal welfare

In general, 'vegan; does. Organic means little (as the animals are
still killed against their will).

Death is a natural event for all animals.

or sustainable
farming,

All science mate.

or for climate change with all the food miles they travel.

Of course, but moving animals 1000 miles means it has to be done with
them alive ... or dead and typically frozen, moving most veg require
neither.

But food miles is a different discussion to the one of causing
unnecessary suffering, exploitation and death to animals.

Death is a certainty, pain and suffering are optional. Shame you don't
care about animal welfare while the animal is alive.

Animals == food (for a natural, balanced diet).

On Fri, 7 May 2021 18:17:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 06/05/2021 22:03, Owain Lastname wrote:

I've got a stack of tinned fruit I bought as it was reduced.

I vary rarely eat tinned fruit, I just convince myself I do. I blame
the episode of Porridge for convincing me subconsciously that a tin
of pineapple chunks is a sought-after commodity.

Goes nicely with Gammon... (steaks or roast)

I have never liked having my main course mixed with my pudding g and
never really liked gammon for that matter.

If we were at a carvery and gammon was the only meat left, I'd just go
for more veg and roast potatoes. ;-)

Strange as I didn't mind bacon (trimmed and well done) and have had a
few chops?

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 7 May 2021 13:12:46 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 19:58:49 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
Wolves did the management.
And what happened to the wolves ...

Well, we didn't eat them.

No, but we exploited them for *their* fur, again in those days for our
*survival*, no option to pop into Millets for a bit of Goretex.

Cheers, T i m

On 7 May 2021 at 16:11:13 BST, "whisky-dave" wrote:

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:52:32 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 08:56:44 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip
I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely a
mention in this thread - just money.
Good point Rob and I think one answer will be where there is a
critical mass of vegans to make others realise it's more 'normal' (for
an evolved human in 2021) to not treat animals the way some currently
do. (Aligning their actions with their morals).

Yes, of course - *you* make the point - but it's not commonly made.


First they have to realise what's going on, and whether it is cruel or just
nature,
with us at the top of the food chain.
I was atv a Spanish wedding in spain years ago as my veggie frinds ask for
some nom meat food. They were asked why they don't eat meat as that's what
God put animals on the Earth for .
I expected a massive arguement and raised voives but my veggie friends just
shook their heads and walked away.

I did ask my veggoe frined recently whether thier olive oil was vegan, they
lok at me confused and said of course it's
not meat and its not cruel to pick them.

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food...ng-bird-deaths
So I left them trying to work out were their olive oil comes from.

Never knew that - thanks. But I'd extend to human animals - are they paid a
decent wage etc? And thinking about it - life of any sort will be affected
through human mucking about with food production and much else.

There was an academic on R4 earlier today who just stopped short of saying
trees have feelings and are pretty much sentient. I think she was making the
point that that's the way we need to be thinking. I reckon she's pretty much
right - not that it'd make much difference.




* those who can afford to choose
Again, something that will / is changing as the popularity for a vegan
lifestyle increases and quantity of scale and competition forces the
prices down, that along with making the meat / dairy / egg farmers pay
the real cost of their 'output' and removing any subsidies for any
food stuffs that aren't sustainable (like meat, dairy and eggs).

yes a lot of political back handers especailly in the EU, where everyone is
expected to contribute
their money to fund cheap meat production and dairy.
You're tax money has gone into this in the past, whether that will continue
though
is a little uncertain.


As mentioned elsewhere, how can a box of blueberries be more expensive
than a chunk of beef?

Nuts.


How can a pint of beer (mostly water) be more expensive than cola , orange
juice or even tea


With beer it's mainly tax - one of many government distortions.

But don;t forget how expensive was but its now so cheap to get it from the
other side
of the world, but is tea vegan ?


Start charging any industry for the cost of it's pollution or fining
it for polluting (that impacts all of us) are sometimes the only way
you can get these industries to change, and they either change or go
bust (demonstrating that they weren't really viable in the first
place, when the true costs are considered).

That would be very difficult to do, even if it's the right thing.
It's like raising the price of petrol a few fold to offset it;s damage.
How many would support that ?


As we remove livestock from areas that are just feeding livestock
(directly or indirectly) we can grow human consumable produce on much
of it and it's suggested that if we were only to use those areas that
is easily viable, there would still be more than enough area to grow
more food than we need.

I think it;s more difficult to transport things like fresh veg from the other
side of the world that
it is to do the same with frozen meat.


I was thinking about eggs and how we think that it's ok to keep taking
the eggs away from them (any bird) and that's 'ok'.

Maybe they just get used to it.
In todays world in the UK if yuo have gets you don't expect them to die from
hunger
por disease this is not so true in africa, such things are expected, it;s why
they have so many children per adult.
Which is also the same with animals.

eg, In nature a bird would lay a clutch of eggs (say 1 to 5 typically)
then stop, incubate them, see them fledge and eventually 'leave the
nest' and wouldn't keep doing that all year round, just in the
'breeding season'?

So why does a spider lay 1000s of eegs ?


Why do we disassociate chickens from these same birds and so think
it's ok to keep taking the eggs away, forcing them to carry on
creating eggs (in an unnatural quantity) until they are exhausted and
killed, simply because they are no longer productive at that
industrial level?

I don't know - but don't hens just ovulate 'normally' if kept in the garden
and away from bloke hens? And the eggs would just rot down or get eaten
somewhere along the food chain if they haven't been fertilised? Need to read
up on it :-)


My veggies friends parents keep chicken and they do eat their eggs
but the are not commercaily sold adn I don;t think they force them to lay
eggs.


Cheers, T i m


--
Cheers, Rob

On 07/05/2021 18:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/05/2021 22:03, Owain Lastname wrote:

I've got a stack of tinned fruit I bought as it was reduced.

I vary rarely eat tinned fruit, I just convince myself I do. I blame
the episode of Porridge for convincing me subconsciously that a tin
of pineapple chunks is a sought-after commodity.

Goes nicely with Gammon... (steaks or roast)

I think I prefer egg!

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 18:52:41 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 6 May 2021 08:43:14 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 14:49:44 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.
https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html

The prices the Co-op charge for stuff, they can slash their prices all
they want. It's like Allied Carpets having a "Sale".
Whilst that might be the case 'generally', I'm not sure it applies to
this particular move.

I've always found the coop to be more expensive because they claim to be
more ethical whether that is true or not I don;t know.
Butn I'll use whatever is more convient for me at the time and don't mind
paying a bit more.
But I can get 4 bottles of spitfire in aldi for the same price as 3
bottles at the coop.


And the Co-op would love to see us reducing our emissions as the only
way they can sell more overpriced stuff in their convenience stores is
if people can't take the car or bus to proper supermarkets.
Personally, I don't really like 'proper supermarkets', too big.
Which is why most Co-ops are in places where people already can't afford
a car or bus.
So no CoOp in any of the 'well off' areas then?

well most of the flats/houses in mile end road are quite expensive it
seems £450k + for a small 2 bed flat
Even the students pay around £130 per week for a 1 bed flat.


Bcause they're more expensive than bloody Waitrose.

Ok. I rarely (if I ever have) used Waitrose so I'll be guided by you.
And they don't even sell aubergines (Co-op that is.)
They can keep them (any of them that is). ;-)

waitrose a bit far from me too, well a few hundred metres that is.


Pineapple Co-op £1.15, Aldi 59p, Waitrose £1
6 Tomatoes Co-op 75p, Aldi 49p, Waitrose 75p
Mushrooms Co-op 200g £1, Aldi 250g 49p, Waitrose 250g £1
So, product for product you are paying roughly the same in Co-Op as
Waitrose but both are more than Aldi. I'm not sure that would be a
surprise to most people.

It's also depends on whether it is truelly the same product.
Aldi to there version of feta and red pepper rolls ~50p cheaper and they
are tasteless.
Comparted to the sainsburys ones from a differnt producer.

My meal deal today was a vegan' chicken tiki sandwich whch was OK
but the white bread a bit bland , why can't they use the same bread as
they do in their chicken
salad sarines. Also wish their cheese sandwiches were better value , don;t
seem to contain much cheese
for the money.


We just picked up a couple of packs of 'wraps' (£1 for 6) and a lovely
box of mixed salad from the kebab shop for £4 and that will, with the
addition of some vegan chicken make the two of us at least two easy /
healthy meals each (probably 3 this time as the manager served me and
is particularly generous). ;-)

reminds me of a Dr. who episode set in WWII

Oh and as for vegan products it;s not always as vegan and some might thing

Did you see this about olive oil which is vegan in the eyes of most,
well best not to put it in your eyes but you know what I mean. :-)

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food...ng-bird-deaths

Bet its the dead birds that give the olive oil its flavour.

On 08/05/2021 01:27, Rod Speed wrote:


"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 18:52:41 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 6 May 2021 08:43:14 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 14:49:44 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html


The prices the Co-op charge for stuff, they can slash their prices
all they want. It's like Allied Carpets having a "Sale".
Whilst that might be the case 'generally', I'm not sure it applies to
this particular move.

I've always found the coop to be more expensive because they claim to
be more ethical whether that is true or not I don;t know.
Butn I'll use whatever is more convient for me at the time and don't
mind paying a bit more.
But I can get 4 bottles of spitfire in aldi for the same price as 3
bottles at the coop.


And the Co-op would love to see us reducing our emissions as the
only way they can sell more overpriced stuff in their convenience
stores is if people can't take the car or bus to proper supermarkets.
Personally, I don't really like 'proper supermarkets', too big.
Which is why most Co-ops are in places where people already can't
afford a car or bus.
So no CoOp in any of the 'well off' areas then?

well most of the flats/houses in mile end road are quite expensive it
seems £450k + for a small 2 bed flat
Even the students pay around £130 per week for a 1 bed flat.


Bcause they're more expensive than bloody Waitrose.

Ok. I rarely (if I ever have) used Waitrose so I'll be guided by you.
And they don't even sell aubergines (Co-op that is.)
They can keep them (any of them that is). ;-)

waitrose a bit far from me too, well a few hundred metres that is.


Pineapple Co-op £1.15, Aldi 59p, Waitrose £1
6 Tomatoes Co-op 75p, Aldi 49p, Waitrose 75p
Mushrooms Co-op 200g £1, Aldi 250g 49p, Waitrose 250g £1
So, product for product you are paying roughly the same in Co-Op as
Waitrose but both are more than Aldi. I'm not sure that would be a
surprise to most people.

It's also depends on whether it is truelly the same product.
Aldi to there version of feta and red pepper rolls ~50p cheaper and
they are tasteless.
Comparted to the sainsburys ones from a differnt producer.

My meal deal today was a vegan' chicken tiki sandwich whch was OK
but the white bread a bit bland , why can't they use the same bread as
they do in their chicken
salad sarines. Also wish their cheese sandwiches were better value ,
don;t seem to contain much cheese
for the money.


We just picked up a couple of packs of 'wraps' (£1 for 6) and a lovely
box of mixed salad from the kebab shop for £4 and that will, with the
addition of some vegan chicken make the two of us at least two easy /
healthy meals each (probably 3 this time as the manager served me and
is particularly generous). ;-)

reminds me of a Dr. who episode set in WWII

Oh and as for vegan products it;s not always as vegan and some might
thing

Did you see this about olive oil which is vegan in the eyes of most,
well best not to put it in your eyes but you know what I mean. :-)

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food...ng-bird-deaths

Bet its the dead birds that give the olive oil its flavour.

These dead birds end up somewhere. It makes me wonder how many end up
crushed and enter the oil.

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 08/05/2021 01:27, Rod Speed wrote:


"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 18:52:41 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 6 May 2021 08:43:14 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 14:49:44 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html

The prices the Co-op charge for stuff, they can slash their prices
all they want. It's like Allied Carpets having a "Sale".
Whilst that might be the case 'generally', I'm not sure it applies to
this particular move.

I've always found the coop to be more expensive because they claim to be
more ethical whether that is true or not I don;t know.
Butn I'll use whatever is more convient for me at the time and don't
mind paying a bit more.
But I can get 4 bottles of spitfire in aldi for the same price as 3
bottles at the coop.


And the Co-op would love to see us reducing our emissions as the
only way they can sell more overpriced stuff in their convenience
stores is if people can't take the car or bus to proper supermarkets.
Personally, I don't really like 'proper supermarkets', too big.
Which is why most Co-ops are in places where people already can't
afford a car or bus.
So no CoOp in any of the 'well off' areas then?

well most of the flats/houses in mile end road are quite expensive it
seems £450k + for a small 2 bed flat
Even the students pay around £130 per week for a 1 bed flat.


Bcause they're more expensive than bloody Waitrose.

Ok. I rarely (if I ever have) used Waitrose so I'll be guided by you.
And they don't even sell aubergines (Co-op that is.)
They can keep them (any of them that is). ;-)

waitrose a bit far from me too, well a few hundred metres that is.


Pineapple Co-op £1.15, Aldi 59p, Waitrose £1
6 Tomatoes Co-op 75p, Aldi 49p, Waitrose 75p
Mushrooms Co-op 200g £1, Aldi 250g 49p, Waitrose 250g £1
So, product for product you are paying roughly the same in Co-Op as
Waitrose but both are more than Aldi. I'm not sure that would be a
surprise to most people.

It's also depends on whether it is truelly the same product.
Aldi to there version of feta and red pepper rolls ~50p cheaper and they
are tasteless.
Comparted to the sainsburys ones from a differnt producer.

My meal deal today was a vegan' chicken tiki sandwich whch was OK
but the white bread a bit bland , why can't they use the same bread as
they do in their chicken
salad sarines. Also wish their cheese sandwiches were better value ,
don;t seem to contain much cheese
for the money.


We just picked up a couple of packs of 'wraps' (£1 for 6) and a lovely
box of mixed salad from the kebab shop for £4 and that will, with the
addition of some vegan chicken make the two of us at least two easy /
healthy meals each (probably 3 this time as the manager served me and
is particularly generous). ;-)

reminds me of a Dr. who episode set in WWII

Oh and as for vegan products it;s not always as vegan and some might
thing

Did you see this about olive oil which is vegan in the eyes of most,
well best not to put it in your eyes but you know what I mean. :-)

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food...ng-bird-deaths

Bet its the dead birds that give the olive oil its flavour.

These dead birds end up somewhere.

You quite sure you aint one of those rocket
scientist terminal ****wit children ?

It makes me wonder how many end up crushed and enter the oil.

What I said, ****wit child.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 08:03:50 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 06/05/2021 19:48, T i m wrote:

But hey-ho, if the Co-Op are only bringing the price of their vegan
range down to that that better match all the others, at least they
might benefit from that in the same way as Greggs have with their
(fairly restricted) vegan range and yet another place we know we can
pick stuff up if convenient etc. ;-)
It is all posturing. The Coop claim to have ethical policies and support
the community but its hardly supporting the poorer in society with their
pricing policy.

Staying with friends in an area of the country where the only 3
supermarkets within a radius of 10 to 15 miles of where they live are
Co-op shows me how really expensive they are, and I don't live in a
"cheap" part of the country (S.E. Essex). My friends now get home
deliveries from the more distant mainstream big supermarkets - a service
expanded greatly in their area since the start of the covid pandemic.
Better for us, better for them, better for the animals and better for
(all of our) environment. ;-)
It's easy to have price parity between goods if you have high prices to
start with. Surely vegan "substitute food" should be cheaper anyway as
the raw ingredients are cheaper?

Not really when you can get pre-cooked ready to eat studd from take-aways.
2 chicken wings and chups for £1 is difficult to beat price wise.

Perhaps some organisations have
realised that a fool and his money are soon parted and there is a lot of
money to be made from the vegan fad while it lasts?

Not sure that is true as people are fooled by buligar cavair
and it's the mid priced wines that have the biggest markup on them.
So it's those paying abpout £8 for a bottle of wine that are the most
fooled.
I'd stick to my £3.99 thunderbird ;-)



If the co-op are embracing veganism as part of their ethical policies
shouldn't that also stop selling meat, milk, butter, eggs, fish etc.?

Well thre's a differnce to embracing and totalling converting.

it's like those that want to help the enviroment, will they give up flying
to another country,,
will they give up their cars, their gas central heating.
Will those against slavery boycotte the tate gallery which was built from
the profits
of slaverery.


I'm not sure why vegans are paying more for food.

They aren't, it's mostly due to supply and demand.

And if you grow your own in the garden of have an allottment it hardly
costs anything.

When I go and buy
fruit and vegetables, nuts, spicy bean burgers and a variety of other
goods I don't seem to be paying more than anyone else, however I don't
get these items from the vegan aisle!

I doubt most vegans do, friends of mine that have been veggies for years
wouldn't be fooled by this.
But who is stupid enough to pay money to go to an art gallery to see
painting
that an artist couldn't sell in his liftime, if they were crap then why
aren't they still crap
but cost millions to buy ?

Because he was ahead of his time, silly.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:52:32 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 08:56:44 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip
I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider
costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely
a
mention in this thread - just money.
Good point Rob and I think one answer will be where there is a
critical mass of vegans to make others realise it's more 'normal' (for
an evolved human in 2021) to not treat animals the way some currently
do. (Aligning their actions with their morals).

First they have to realise what's going on, and whether it is cruel or
just nature,
with us at the top of the food chain.
I was atv a Spanish wedding in spain years ago as my veggie frinds ask for
some nom meat food. They were asked why they don't eat meat as that's what
God put animals on the Earth for .
I expected a massive arguement and raised voives but my veggie friends
just shook their heads and walked away.

I did ask my veggoe frined recently whether thier olive oil was vegan,
they lok at me confused and said of course it's
not meat and its not cruel to pick them.

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food...ng-bird-deaths
So I left them trying to work out were their olive oil comes from.



* those who can afford to choose
Again, something that will / is changing as the popularity for a vegan
lifestyle increases and quantity of scale and competition forces the
prices down, that along with making the meat / dairy / egg farmers pay
the real cost of their 'output' and removing any subsidies for any
food stuffs that aren't sustainable (like meat, dairy and eggs).

yes a lot of political back handers especailly in the EU, where everyone
is expected to contribute
their money to fund cheap meat production and dairy.
You're tax money has gone into this in the past, whether that will
continue though
is a little uncertain.


As mentioned elsewhere, how can a box of blueberries be more expensive
than a chunk of beef?

How can a pint of beer (mostly water) be more
expensive than cola , orange juice or even tea.

They higher taxes, stupid.

But don;t forget how expensive was but its now so cheap
to get it from the other side of the world, but is tea vegan ?

Nope, they mince the birds sitting on the top of the tea bushes too.

Start charging any industry for the cost of it's pollution or fining
it for polluting (that impacts all of us) are sometimes the only way
you can get these industries to change, and they either change or go
bust (demonstrating that they weren't really viable in the first
place, when the true costs are considered).

That would be very difficult to do, even if it's the right thing.
It's like raising the price of petrol a few fold to offset it;s damage.
How many would support that ?


As we remove livestock from areas that are just feeding livestock
(directly or indirectly) we can grow human consumable produce on much
of it and it's suggested that if we were only to use those areas that
is easily viable, there would still be more than enough area to grow
more food than we need.

I think it;s more difficult to transport things like fresh veg from the
other side of the world that
it is to do the same with frozen meat.


I was thinking about eggs and how we think that it's ok to keep taking
the eggs away from them (any bird) and that's 'ok'.

Maybe they just get used to it.
In todays world in the UK if yuo have gets you don't expect them to die
from hunger
por disease this is not so true in africa, such things are expected, it;s
why they have so many children per adult.
Which is also the same with animals.

eg, In nature a bird would lay a clutch of eggs (say 1 to 5 typically)
then stop, incubate them, see them fledge and eventually 'leave the
nest' and wouldn't keep doing that all year round, just in the
'breeding season'?

So why does a spider lay 1000s of eegs ?


Why do we disassociate chickens from these same birds and so think
it's ok to keep taking the eggs away, forcing them to carry on
creating eggs (in an unnatural quantity) until they are exhausted and
killed, simply because they are no longer productive at that
industrial level?

My veggies friends parents keep chicken and they do eat their eggs
but the are not commercaily sold adn I don;t think they force them to lay
eggs.

Bet they stand over them waving a chopper and tell
them that if they dont lay, its the stew pot for them.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 May 2021 05:55:29 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:23:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
Venison is one of the most animal-friendly and environment-friendly
meats to eat.
'Animal friendly', killing it? It's just that I'm sure it would
rather be doing what they do than laying in pieces on your plate?

It could live starving in a hedge somewhere, which is what happens when
deer aren't managed.

Oh, I wonder how they managed for the thousands (millions?) of years
before we arrived?

The areas they infested were a little different
then, no houses, roads, cars, vegans.

And what when we take that further and more intensively farm them like
we do with cows, pigs, sheep and chickens?

Not sure that will ever be possible.

We camped near a 'reindeer farm' about 20 years ago so it's been
possible to some level for a long time.

A lot of venison sold in the UK is farmed in New Zealand. I'd rather see
and support UK production.

So would I, production of food without all the cruelty, exploitation
and death.

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 May 2021 19:20:34 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article , T i m
wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 05:55:29 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:23:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
Venison is one of the most animal-friendly and environment-friendly
meats to eat.
'Animal friendly', killing it? It's just that I'm sure it would
rather be doing what they do than laying in pieces on your plate?

It could live starving in a hedge somewhere, which is what happens when
deer aren't managed.

Oh, I wonder how they managed for the thousands (millions?) of years
before we arrived?

Wolves did the management.

And what happened to the wolves ...

They died eating vegans.

On 08/05/2021 02:17, Fredxx wrote:

These dead birds end up somewhere. It makes me wonder how many end up
crushed and enter the oil.


It's much like the dead rat that has to added to a cider barrel to make
sure that it starts fermenting.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 07/05/2021 22:36, RJH wrote:

How can a pint of beer (mostly water) be more expensive than cola , orange
juice or even tea


With beer it's mainly tax - one of many government distortions.


But have you purchased a cola in a pub recently (pre covid)
Why is the price of a pint of cola more expensive than a pint of beer.?



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 07/05/2021 17:15, T i m wrote:

Of course, but moving animals 1000 miles means it has to be done with
them alive ... or dead and typically frozen, moving most veg require
neither.

The freshest vegetables available en masse are those that are harvested
and then frozen within a couple of hours or so.

Those that are harvested for processing into vegan copies of real food
require much more processing, of course, but aren't necessarily the
freshest available - any old rubbish can go into those as the final
meat-like product bears little resemblance to the original constituents.

You need to do some research into the foods you eat, and perhaps those
that you don't eat, as sounding off yet again with unfounded claims
weakens your position once more.

--
Spike

On 07/05/2021 18:58, T i m wrote:
charles wrote:
, T i m wrote:

Oh, I wonder how [deer] managed for the thousands (millions?) of years
before we arrived?

Wolves did the management.

And what happened to the wolves ...

There's a hole in your bucket....

--
Spike

On Sat, 8 May 2021 13:08:22 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

They died eating vegans.

Oh, PLEASE, spare everyone your sociopathic attempts at some kind of
"humour", you lame sociopathic troll!

On Sat, 8 May 2021 12:59:18 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

On Sat, 8 May 2021 12:19:57 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile troll****

On Sat, 8 May 2021 12:42:44 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Because he was ahead of his time, silly.

YOU've been past your time for a long time already, you useless trolling
senile cretin!

--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Sat, 8 May 2021 12:49:45 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the usual idiotic troll****

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On 08/05/2021 03:19, Rod Speed wrote:


"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 08/05/2021 01:27, Rod Speed wrote:


"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 18:52:41 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 6 May 2021 08:43:14 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 14:49:44 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html


The prices the Co-op charge for stuff, they can slash their prices
all they want. It's like Allied Carpets having a "Sale".
Whilst that might be the case 'generally', I'm not sure it applies to
this particular move.

I've always found the coop to be more expensive because they claim
to be more ethical whether that is true or not I don;t know.
Butn I'll use whatever is more convient for me at the time and don't
mind paying a bit more.
But I can get 4 bottles of spitfire in aldi for the same price as 3
bottles at the coop.


And the Co-op would love to see us reducing our emissions as the
only way they can sell more overpriced stuff in their convenience
stores is if people can't take the car or bus to proper supermarkets.
Personally, I don't really like 'proper supermarkets', too big.
Which is why most Co-ops are in places where people already can't
afford a car or bus.
So no CoOp in any of the 'well off' areas then?

well most of the flats/houses in mile end road are quite expensive
it seems £450k + for a small 2 bed flat
Even the students pay around £130 per week for a 1 bed flat.


Bcause they're more expensive than bloody Waitrose.

Ok. I rarely (if I ever have) used Waitrose so I'll be guided by you.
And they don't even sell aubergines (Co-op that is.)
They can keep them (any of them that is). ;-)

waitrose a bit far from me too, well a few hundred metres that is.


Pineapple Co-op £1.15, Aldi 59p, Waitrose £1
6 Tomatoes Co-op 75p, Aldi 49p, Waitrose 75p
Mushrooms Co-op 200g £1, Aldi 250g 49p, Waitrose 250g £1
So, product for product you are paying roughly the same in Co-Op as
Waitrose but both are more than Aldi. I'm not sure that would be a
surprise to most people.

It's also depends on whether it is truelly the same product.
Aldi to there version of feta and red pepper rolls ~50p cheaper and
they are tasteless.
Comparted to the sainsburys ones from a differnt producer.

My meal deal today was a vegan' chicken tiki sandwich whch was OK
but the white bread a bit bland , why can't they use the same bread
as they do in their chicken
salad sarines. Also wish their cheese sandwiches were better value ,
don;t seem to contain much cheese
for the money.


We just picked up a couple of packs of 'wraps' (£1 for 6) and a lovely
box of mixed salad from the kebab shop for £4 and that will, with the
addition of some vegan chicken make the two of us at least two easy /
healthy meals each (probably 3 this time as the manager served me and
is particularly generous). ;-)

reminds me of a Dr. who episode set in WWII

Oh and as for vegan products it;s not always as vegan and some might
thing

Did you see this about olive oil which is vegan in the eyes of most,
well best not to put it in your eyes but you know what I mean. :-)

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food...ng-bird-deaths

Bet its the dead birds that give the olive oil its flavour.

These dead birds end up somewhere.

You quite sure you aint one of those rocket
scientistÂ* terminal ****wit children ?

I would assume a minimal amount of manual sorting would get rid of most.
Or have you not thought of this?

It makes me wonder how many end up crushed and enter the oil.

What I said, ****wit child.

You said how many? Please do show us where.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 May 2021 13:31:21 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:

snip

processing veggies to look like, taste like, etc meat is just daft

Why, how is it impacting you?

because it pushes up the price of these food items at the shops

Now that may not be an immediate threat to me, but it makes the population
more accepting of this higher price point for individual processed meals
meaning that manufactures can artificially increase prices of other
processed meals. -

Or worse, encourage Governments to add a "non veggie" sin-tax to other food
groups on the bogus reasoning that they complete "unfairly" with more
sustainable veggie products.



it should be banned IMHO

Because?

see above

"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 07/05/2021 22:36, RJH wrote:

How can a pint of beer (mostly water) be more expensive than cola ,
orange
juice or even tea


With beer it's mainly tax - one of many government distortions.


But have you purchased a cola in a pub recently (pre covid)
Why is the price of a pint of cola more expensive than a pint of beer.?

they had to introduce a "law" at the Oktoberfest, prohibiting the sale of
soft drinks at prices in excess of the beer prices.

Personally I would have said no more than half the price was appropriate

On 06/05/2021 20:15, ARW wrote:
On 06/05/2021 15:36, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html


I was wondering how all that fits in with how all the farming
subsidies are handed out.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articl...exit-explained


https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/743169...-and-dairy.pdf


Right, off for a walk to the CoOp (via the polling station) to show
support for their incentive ... ;-)

My experience is that such reductions are short-lived and designed to
attract short term news coverage, so intended for those with short
memories or ulterior motives.

Co-Op also sell Halal meat so you must support that form of slaughter
too via the polling station.

Is this another opportunity to spoil your vote?





I have just been to my local Co-op as I needed cigs and beer and a few
other essentials.

The reduced to clear fridge was full of GRO vegan products with a sell
by date of 06/05/2021.

Need I say more?


My local smaller Sainsburys regularly sells of 'ethnic', vegan and
gluten-free items sold off for a fraction of the normal price.

On 07/05/2021 19:58, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 07 May 2021 19:20:34 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article , T i m
wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 05:55:29 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:23:19 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
Venison is one of the most animal-friendly and environment-friendly
meats to eat.
'Animal friendly', killing it? It's just that I'm sure it would
rather be doing what they do than laying in pieces on your plate?

It could live starving in a hedge somewhere, which is what happens when
deer aren't managed.

Oh, I wonder how they managed for the thousands (millions?) of years
before we arrived?

Wolves did the management.

And what happened to the wolves ...

Cheers, T i m

They moved in with us and turned into pugs, great danes,
labradors, huskies, sausage dogs, .. and alsations.
From then on all they needed to do was take part in the
hunt, and got free food, warmth and bones in return.

On 06/05/2021 18:26, GB wrote:
On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html


I was wondering how all that fits in with how all the farming
subsidies are handed out.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articl...exit-explained


https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/743169...-and-dairy.pdf


Right, off for a walk to the CoOp (via the polling station) to show
support for their incentive ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m



We often visit North Norfolk, and we refer to the local Coop as Fortnums
North. That's because the competition is so dire that it makes the Coop
appear rather more up-market than they intend to be.



If by North Norfolk you mean places like Blakeney? then that has been
Chelsea-by-sea for ages, so I'm surprised there isn't a Fortnums and
a whole range woke 'food' shops.

On 06/05/2021 18:44, alan_m wrote:
On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.


https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html


In my experience the Coop is the most expensive retailer of food items
in the market place, especially where they have a near monopoly in rural
areas.

That's the case in Worthing in the areas more than 1/2 a mile from
the town centre where M&S, Iceland, Lidl and Waitrose are the main
shops.

Despite being on opposite sides of the road, the Waitrose is busy
and you can buy a small basket of items and use the self-serve
tills or the basket-only tills and never have more than a handful
of people in front of you.

Meanwhile, over the road in Lidl, getting out is typically a 15 minute
wait with a queue of 20 people ahead of you. Sod that.

On Sun, 9 May 2021 12:03:37 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

snip

My local smaller Sainsburys regularly sells of 'ethnic', vegan and
gluten-free items sold off for a fraction of the normal price.

Because the market for them is obviously still growing and so it's
quite easy to overstock, or end up with overpriced stock if someone
else is running a promotion.

I've only generally see non vegan stuff (along with std fruit and veg
etc which has been vegan for ever) in any reduced section (to my
dismay) but have seen huge lumps of meat and packs of fish.

Daughter is currently doing all our shopping (Covid) and likes and
knows we like a bargain and it's very rare that any of our shopping
contains anything that has been marked down (or she's keeping it
herself). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 9 May 2021 12:10:20 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

snip

Oh, I wonder how they managed for the thousands (millions?) of years
before we arrived?

Wolves did the management.

And what happened to the wolves ...

They moved in with us and turned into pugs, great danes,
labradors, huskies, sausage dogs, .. and alsations.

Not all of them didn't, so where did all those that didn't become
domesticated go (I know the answer to that of course).

https://ibb.co/zR585ZN

From then on all they needed to do was take part in the
hunt, and got free food, warmth and bones in return.

Sure .. and why domesticated dogs (who are capable of living long and
healthy lives on a balanced vegan diet) will be one of the last of all
the exploited animal species to go. ;-)

Because they have been fed from our scraps for years they have
developed to ability to digest carbs, unlike the wolf.

The (non native) cat is an obligate carnivore so must have meat to
survive and already has a negative impact on the native wildlife in
many countries, wildlife already under threat of habitat loss because
(in many cases) of livestock farming (so will be higher up the list).
;-)


Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 9 May 2021 12:23:44 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

snip

If by North Norfolk you mean places like Blakeney? then that has been
Chelsea-by-sea for ages, so I'm surprised there isn't a Fortnums and
a whole range woke 'food' shops.

We used to make the trip to the various 'Roy's' shops in Wroxham (or
Roystown as we called it) when holidaying up that way.

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2021 18:52, T i m wrote:

snip

and the temptation of the middle isle. ;-(

My local Lidl middle isle is mainly full of meat and meat products. I
presume yours is the same?

I'd suggest you look at their website. ;-)

--
*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I was wondering if they have actually made vegan meat taste of meat and not
cardboard yet.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html

I was wondering how all that fits in with how all the farming
subsidies are handed out.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articl...exit-explained

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/743169...-and-dairy.pdf

Right, off for a walk to the CoOp (via the polling station) to show
support for their incentive ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 9 May 2021 11:31:43 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 7 May 2021 13:31:21 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:

snip

processing veggies to look like, taste like, etc meat is just daft

Why, how is it impacting you?

because it pushes up the price of these food items at the shops

Only initially possibly, till they can reach sufficient market
penetration for quantity of scale can kick in.

Look how much pushback you see just asking people to consider milk
alternatives.

Now that may not be an immediate threat to me, but it makes the population
more accepting of this higher price point for individual processed meals
meaning that manufactures can artificially increase prices of other
processed meals. -

Well, that's a commercial ... not food shape thing.

Or worse, encourage Governments to add a "non veggie" sin-tax to other food
groups on the bogus reasoning that they complete "unfairly" with more
sustainable veggie products.

It would only be an issue if it were bogus.

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 9 May 2021 12:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote:

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 09:03:44 UTC+1, Spike wrote:
Perhaps the high cost of vegan foods comes from the extra processing
needed, with the consequent extra burden on the environment and its
effect on climate change, in order to make them look like, taste like,
smell like, and cook like the very things they are substituting for,
because vegans miss their meat.

Strange that.

It would be if it wasn't bollox (but it is). ;-(

When we first discovered cooking meat to make it edible, why didn't we think "now how can we make this roast suckling pig taste just like the delicious boiled cabbage we've been eating for the last then thousand years?"

Ah, another history strawman ...

1/10

Cheers, T i m