It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html

I was wondering how all that fits in with how all the farming
subsidies are handed out.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articl...exit-explained

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/743169...-and-dairy.pdf

Right, off for a walk to the CoOp (via the polling station) to show
support for their incentive ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html

I was wondering how all that fits in with how all the farming
subsidies are handed out.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articl...exit-explained

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/743169...-and-dairy.pdf

Right, off for a walk to the CoOp (via the polling station) to show
support for their incentive ... ;-)

My experience is that such reductions are short-lived and designed to
attract short term news coverage, so intended for those with short
memories or ulterior motives.

Co-Op also sell Halal meat so you must support that form of slaughter
too via the polling station.

Is this another opportunity to spoil your vote?

On 06/05/2021 15:36, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html


I was wondering how all that fits in with how all the farming
subsidies are handed out.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articl...exit-explained


https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/743169...-and-dairy.pdf


Right, off for a walk to the CoOp (via the polling station) to show
support for their incentive ... ;-)

My experience is that such reductions are short-lived and designed to
attract short term news coverage, so intended for those with short
memories or ulterior motives.

Co-Op also sell Halal meat so you must support that form of slaughter
too via the polling station.

Is this another opportunity to spoil your vote?





I have just been to my local Co-op as I needed cigs and beer and a few
other essentials.

The reduced to clear fridge was full of GRO vegan products with a sell
by date of 06/05/2021.

Need I say more?

--
Adam

On 06/05/2021 20:15, ARW wrote:
On 06/05/2021 15:36, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html


I was wondering how all that fits in with how all the farming
subsidies are handed out.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articl...exit-explained


https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/743169...-and-dairy.pdf


Right, off for a walk to the CoOp (via the polling station) to show
support for their incentive ... ;-)

My experience is that such reductions are short-lived and designed to
attract short term news coverage, so intended for those with short
memories or ulterior motives.

Co-Op also sell Halal meat so you must support that form of slaughter
too via the polling station.

Is this another opportunity to spoil your vote?





I have just been to my local Co-op as I needed cigs and beer and a few
other essentials.

The reduced to clear fridge was full of GRO vegan products with a sell
by date of 06/05/2021.

Need I say more?


My local smaller Sainsburys regularly sells of 'ethnic', vegan and
gluten-free items sold off for a fraction of the normal price.

On Sun, 9 May 2021 12:03:37 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

snip

My local smaller Sainsburys regularly sells of 'ethnic', vegan and
gluten-free items sold off for a fraction of the normal price.

Because the market for them is obviously still growing and so it's
quite easy to overstock, or end up with overpriced stock if someone
else is running a promotion.

I've only generally see non vegan stuff (along with std fruit and veg
etc which has been vegan for ever) in any reduced section (to my
dismay) but have seen huge lumps of meat and packs of fish.

Daughter is currently doing all our shopping (Covid) and likes and
knows we like a bargain and it's very rare that any of our shopping
contains anything that has been marked down (or she's keeping it
herself). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html

I was wondering how all that fits in with how all the farming
subsidies are handed out.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articl...exit-explained

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/743169...-and-dairy.pdf

Right, off for a walk to the CoOp (via the polling station) to show
support for their incentive ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m



We often visit North Norfolk, and we refer to the local Coop as Fortnums
North. That's because the competition is so dire that it makes the Coop
appear rather more up-market than they intend to be.

On Thu, 6 May 2021 18:26:29 +0100, GB
wrote:

snip

We often visit North Norfolk,

We love(ed?) Norfolk and spent most of our family holidays there.

and we refer to the local Coop as Fortnums
North. That's because the competition is so dire that it makes the Coop
appear rather more up-market than they intend to be.

Hehe.

It is funny how what is 'just' a corner shop for the locals can be a
special find when you are camping. ;-)

I think it was when we were staying on Oulton Broad Dad found a
mushroom farm a reasonable walk away where you could buy a basket of
monster / seconds mushrooms for next to nothing. We might have one
between us as they could be as big as our frying pan. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 06/05/2021 18:26, GB wrote:
On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html


I was wondering how all that fits in with how all the farming
subsidies are handed out.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articl...exit-explained


https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/743169...-and-dairy.pdf


Right, off for a walk to the CoOp (via the polling station) to show
support for their incentive ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m



We often visit North Norfolk, and we refer to the local Coop as Fortnums
North. That's because the competition is so dire that it makes the Coop
appear rather more up-market than they intend to be.



If by North Norfolk you mean places like Blakeney? then that has been
Chelsea-by-sea for ages, so I'm surprised there isn't a Fortnums and
a whole range woke 'food' shops.

On Sun, 9 May 2021 12:23:44 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

snip

If by North Norfolk you mean places like Blakeney? then that has been
Chelsea-by-sea for ages, so I'm surprised there isn't a Fortnums and
a whole range woke 'food' shops.

We used to make the trip to the various 'Roy's' shops in Wroxham (or
Roystown as we called it) when holidaying up that way.

Cheers, T i m

On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.


https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html

In my experience the Coop is the most expensive retailer of food items
in the market place, especially where they have a near monopoly in rural
areas.

Around my way where there is competition from not only the main
supermarkets, both German supermarkets and quite a few independents
their stores have closed over the past decade.




--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Thu, 6 May 2021 18:44:14 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.


https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html

In my experience the Coop is the most expensive retailer of food items
in the market place, especially where they have a near monopoly in rural
areas.

I can't say we have ever used one regularly, only maybe when camping,
either because (as you say) it was the only gay/// shop in the village
(when you sort of expect to pay 'sea prices') or when we have been on
the road (again, generally when on holiday) and pick up some
provisions where we can. They are also 'quicker' because they are
smaller and with parking right outside so better if you just want to
'pop in' for a few 'bits'.

Around my way where there is competition from not only the main
supermarkets, both German supermarkets and quite a few independents
their stores have closed over the past decade.

On the way home from the dog walk tonight I bought some 'bit's' in a
general independent, 7/11 type place, even though there was a Tesco
express nearly opposite that could well have been cheaper. However,
the chances are it would have been slower as these independents seem
to have the price of everything in their heads (and I do keep an eye
on the price / change and I have never had an issue) and so /
therefore move people though faster (less time with my mask on). ;-)

But hey-ho, if the Co-Op are only bringing the price of their vegan
range down to that that better match all the others, at least they
might benefit from that in the same way as Greggs have with their
(fairly restricted) vegan range and yet another place we know we can
pick stuff up if convenient etc. ;-)

Better for us, better for them, better for the animals and better for
(all of our) environment. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 06/05/2021 19:48, T i m wrote:

But hey-ho, if the Co-Op are only bringing the price of their vegan
range down to that that better match all the others, at least they
might benefit from that in the same way as Greggs have with their
(fairly restricted) vegan range and yet another place we know we can
pick stuff up if convenient etc. ;-)

It is all posturing. The Coop claim to have ethical policies and support
the community but its hardly supporting the poorer in society with their
pricing policy.

Staying with friends in an area of the country where the only 3
supermarkets within a radius of 10 to 15 miles of where they live are
Co-op shows me how really expensive they are, and I don't live in a
"cheap" part of the country (S.E. Essex). My friends now get home
deliveries from the more distant mainstream big supermarkets - a service
expanded greatly in their area since the start of the covid pandemic.

Better for us, better for them, better for the animals and better for
(all of our) environment. ;-)

It's easy to have price parity between goods if you have high prices to
start with. Surely vegan "substitute food" should be cheaper anyway as
the raw ingredients are cheaper? Perhaps some organisations have
realised that a fool and his money are soon parted and there is a lot of
money to be made from the vegan fad while it lasts?

If the co-op are embracing veganism as part of their ethical policies
shouldn't that also stop selling meat, milk, butter, eggs, fish etc.?

I'm not sure why vegans are paying more for food. When I go and buy
fruit and vegetables, nuts, spicy bean burgers and a variety of other
goods I don't seem to be paying more than anyone else, however I don't
get these items from the vegan aisle!




--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 07/05/2021 07:03, alan_m wrote:

It's easy to have price parity between goods if you have high prices to
start with. Surely vegan "substitute food" should be cheaper anyway as
the raw ingredients are cheaper?

Perhaps the high cost of vegan foods comes from the extra processing
needed, with the consequent extra burden on the environment and its
effect on climate change, in order to make them look like, taste like,
smell like, and cook like the very things they are substituting for,
because vegans miss their meat.

--
Spike

"Spike" wrote in message
...
On 07/05/2021 07:03, alan_m wrote:

It's easy to have price parity between goods if you have high prices to
start with. Surely vegan "substitute food" should be cheaper anyway as
the raw ingredients are cheaper?

Perhaps the high cost of vegan foods comes from the extra processing
needed, with the consequent extra burden on the environment and its
effect on climate change, in order to make them look like, taste like,
smell like, and cook like the very things they are substituting for,
because vegans miss their meat.

Yup

processing veggies to look like, taste like, etc meat is just daft

it should be banned IMHO



--
Spike

On Fri, 7 May 2021 08:03:48 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 06/05/2021 19:48, T i m wrote:

But hey-ho, if the Co-Op are only bringing the price of their vegan
range down to that that better match all the others, at least they
might benefit from that in the same way as Greggs have with their
(fairly restricted) vegan range and yet another place we know we can
pick stuff up if convenient etc. ;-)

It is all posturing. The Coop claim to have ethical policies and support
the community but its hardly supporting the poorer in society with their
pricing policy.

It's supporting everyone if it's to do with the environment?

Staying with friends in an area of the country where the only 3
supermarkets within a radius of 10 to 15 miles of where they live are
Co-op shows me how really expensive they are, and I don't live in a
"cheap" part of the country (S.E. Essex). My friends now get home
deliveries from the more distant mainstream big supermarkets - a service
expanded greatly in their area since the start of the covid pandemic.

Noted.

Better for us, better for them, better for the animals and better for
(all of our) environment. ;-)

It's easy to have price parity between goods if you have high prices to
start with.

Of course.

Surely vegan "substitute food" should be cheaper anyway as
the raw ingredients are cheaper?

It will be, as demand further increases and as subsidies on the animal
based stuff is removed.

Perhaps some organisations have
realised that a fool and his money are soon parted and there is a lot of
money to be made from the vegan fad while it lasts?

It's not a fad, it's a lifestyle choice for people who don't want to
contribute cruelty and exploitation of animals and has been growing in
popularity for years. Many million people have been doing this for
thousands of years of course, but just not under the name 'vegan'
(which was invented to differentiate them from vegetarians).

If the co-op are embracing veganism as part of their ethical policies
shouldn't that also stop selling meat, milk, butter, eggs, fish etc.?

Not if they don't want to become a purely 'vegan supplier' as many
places now are.

I'm not sure why vegans are paying more for food.

Depends on what food you are talking about? They aren't paying more
for the things that non vegans regularly buy, like fruit and veg?

When I go and buy
fruit and vegetables, nuts, spicy bean burgers and a variety of other
goods I don't seem to be paying more than anyone else, however I don't
get these items from the vegan aisle!

No, and nor do we, but some places make it easier for those who only
want to buy vegan products to group them together so they don't have
to traipse around all the animal carcasses to get their burgers.

Personally, I don't mind if they are just in with similar things
because that way others might see them when they might not realise
that 'vegan food' is for everyone ... '(or just 'food without
unnecessary animal cruelty' as we call it.) ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 07/05/2021 11:36, T i m wrote:
alan_m wrote:

It is all posturing. The Coop claim to have ethical policies and support
the community but its hardly supporting the poorer in society with their
pricing policy.

It's supporting everyone if it's to do with the environment?

The flaw in your argument us that, in order to get vegetables to look
like, smell like, and taste like meat (for some strange reason?), they
need extra environment-polluting processing and probably extra storage.
So perhaps there is less benefit to the environment than your posts
suggests.

--
Spike

On 07/05/2021 12:36, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 08:03:48 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 06/05/2021 19:48, T i m wrote:

But hey-ho, if the Co-Op are only bringing the price of their vegan
range down to that that better match all the others, at least they
might benefit from that in the same way as Greggs have with their
(fairly restricted) vegan range and yet another place we know we can
pick stuff up if convenient etc. ;-)

It is all posturing. The Coop claim to have ethical policies and support
the community but its hardly supporting the poorer in society with their
pricing policy.

It's supporting everyone if it's to do with the environment?

No, it's exploiting the poor by making them pay higher prices.

Staying with friends in an area of the country where the only 3
supermarkets within a radius of 10 to 15 miles of where they live are
Co-op shows me how really expensive they are, and I don't live in a
"cheap" part of the country (S.E. Essex). My friends now get home
deliveries from the more distant mainstream big supermarkets - a service
expanded greatly in their area since the start of the covid pandemic.

Noted.

Better for us, better for them, better for the animals and better for
(all of our) environment. ;-)

It's easy to have price parity between goods if you have high prices to
start with.

Of course.

Surely vegan "substitute food" should be cheaper anyway as
the raw ingredients are cheaper?

It will be, as demand further increases and as subsidies on the animal
based stuff is removed.

A feature of Brexit. I trust you are rejoicing in the prospect of
reduced subsidies to land owners.

Perhaps some organisations have
realised that a fool and his money are soon parted and there is a lot of
money to be made from the vegan fad while it lasts?

It's not a fad, it's a lifestyle choice for people who don't want to
contribute cruelty and exploitation of animals


Then support campaigns for improved animal welfare. It's very simple.

But you won't because it won't promote your fanatical campaign against
consumers of meat and animal products, fuelled by envy.

and has been growing in
popularity for years. Many million people have been doing this for
thousands of years of course, but just not under the name 'vegan'
(which was invented to differentiate them from vegetarians).

Shame their children will likely have stunted brain development. Darwin
would be proud of the self selection.

If the co-op are embracing veganism as part of their ethical policies
shouldn't that also stop selling meat, milk, butter, eggs, fish etc.?

Not if they don't want to become a purely 'vegan supplier' as many
places now are.

Very unlikely unless they want their profits to plummet. Best live in
the RW.

I'm not sure why vegans are paying more for food.

Depends on what food you are talking about? They aren't paying more
for the things that non vegans regularly buy, like fruit and veg?

One would expect there is a premium for fake meat.

When I go and buy
fruit and vegetables, nuts, spicy bean burgers and a variety of other
goods I don't seem to be paying more than anyone else, however I don't
get these items from the vegan aisle!

No, and nor do we, but some places make it easier for those who only
want to buy vegan products to group them together so they don't have
to traipse around all the animal carcasses to get their burgers.

Or to promote envy amongst those Converts who dream of eating meat.

Personally, I don't mind if they are just in with similar things
because that way others might see them when they might not realise
that 'vegan food' is for everyone ...

I agree.

'(or just 'food without
unnecessary animal cruelty' as we call it.) ;-)

Then campaign to reduce the unnecessary animal cruelty. It's very simple.

But you won't because it won't promote your fanatical campaign against
consumers of meat and animal products, fuelled by envy.

On 07/05/2021 08:03, alan_m wrote:
On 06/05/2021 19:48, T i m wrote:

But hey-ho, if the Co-Op are only bringing the price of their vegan
range down to that that better match all the others, at least they
might benefit from that in the same way as Greggs have with their
(fairly restricted) vegan range and yet another place we know we can
pick stuff up if convenient etc. ;-)

It is all posturing. The Coop claim to have ethical policies and support
the community but its hardly supporting the poorer in society with their
pricing policy.

Staying with friends in an area of the country where the only 3
supermarkets within a radius of 10 to 15 miles of where they live are
Co-op shows me how really expensive they are, and I don't live in a
"cheap" part of the country (S.E. Essex). My friends now get home
deliveries from the more distant mainstream big supermarkets - a service
expanded greatly in their area since the start of the covid pandemic.

Better for us, better for them, better for the animals and better for
(all of our) environment. ;-)

It's easy to have price parity between goods if you have high prices to
start with. Surely vegan "substitute food" should be cheaper anyway as
the raw ingredients are cheaper?Â* Perhaps some organisations have
realised that a fool and his money are soon parted and there is a lot of
money to be made from the vegan fad while it lasts?

If the co-op are embracing veganism as part of their ethical policies
shouldn't that also stop selling meat, milk, butter, eggs, fish etc.?

Or even Halal meat.

I'm not sure why vegans are paying more for food. When I go and buy
fruit and vegetables, nuts, spicy bean burgers and a variety of other
goods I don't seem to be paying more than anyone else, however I don't
get these items from the vegan aisle!

I think vegans are willing to pay more, so shops can charge more. Being
a low volume produce doesn't help.

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 08:03:50 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 06/05/2021 19:48, T i m wrote:

But hey-ho, if the Co-Op are only bringing the price of their vegan
range down to that that better match all the others, at least they
might benefit from that in the same way as Greggs have with their
(fairly restricted) vegan range and yet another place we know we can
pick stuff up if convenient etc. ;-)
It is all posturing. The Coop claim to have ethical policies and support
the community but its hardly supporting the poorer in society with their
pricing policy.

Staying with friends in an area of the country where the only 3
supermarkets within a radius of 10 to 15 miles of where they live are
Co-op shows me how really expensive they are, and I don't live in a
"cheap" part of the country (S.E. Essex). My friends now get home
deliveries from the more distant mainstream big supermarkets - a service
expanded greatly in their area since the start of the covid pandemic.
Better for us, better for them, better for the animals and better for
(all of our) environment. ;-)
It's easy to have price parity between goods if you have high prices to
start with. Surely vegan "substitute food" should be cheaper anyway as
the raw ingredients are cheaper?

Not really when you can get pre-cooked ready to eat studd from take-aways.
2 chicken wings and chups for £1 is difficult to beat price wise.

Perhaps some organisations have
realised that a fool and his money are soon parted and there is a lot of
money to be made from the vegan fad while it lasts?

Not sure that is true as people are fooled by buligar cavair
and it's the mid priced wines that have the biggest markup on them.
So it's those paying abpout £8 for a bottle of wine that are the most fooled.
I'd stick to my £3.99 thunderbird ;-)



If the co-op are embracing veganism as part of their ethical policies
shouldn't that also stop selling meat, milk, butter, eggs, fish etc.?

Well thre's a differnce to embracing and totalling converting.

it's like those that want to help the enviroment, will they give up flying to another country,,
will they give up their cars, their gas central heating.
Will those against slavery boycotte the tate gallery which was built from the profits
of slaverery.


I'm not sure why vegans are paying more for food.

They aren't, it's mostly due to supply and demand.

And if you grow your own in the garden of have an allottment it hardly costs anything.

When I go and buy
fruit and vegetables, nuts, spicy bean burgers and a variety of other
goods I don't seem to be paying more than anyone else, however I don't
get these items from the vegan aisle!

I doubt most vegans do, friends of mine that have been veggies for years
wouldn't be fooled by this.
But who is stupid enough to pay money to go to an art gallery to see painting
that an artist couldn't sell in his liftime, if they were crap then why aren't they still crap
but cost millions to buy ?




--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 08:03:50 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 06/05/2021 19:48, T i m wrote:

But hey-ho, if the Co-Op are only bringing the price of their vegan
range down to that that better match all the others, at least they
might benefit from that in the same way as Greggs have with their
(fairly restricted) vegan range and yet another place we know we can
pick stuff up if convenient etc. ;-)
It is all posturing. The Coop claim to have ethical policies and support
the community but its hardly supporting the poorer in society with their
pricing policy.

Staying with friends in an area of the country where the only 3
supermarkets within a radius of 10 to 15 miles of where they live are
Co-op shows me how really expensive they are, and I don't live in a
"cheap" part of the country (S.E. Essex). My friends now get home
deliveries from the more distant mainstream big supermarkets - a service
expanded greatly in their area since the start of the covid pandemic.
Better for us, better for them, better for the animals and better for
(all of our) environment. ;-)
It's easy to have price parity between goods if you have high prices to
start with. Surely vegan "substitute food" should be cheaper anyway as
the raw ingredients are cheaper?

Not really when you can get pre-cooked ready to eat studd from take-aways.
2 chicken wings and chups for £1 is difficult to beat price wise.

Perhaps some organisations have
realised that a fool and his money are soon parted and there is a lot of
money to be made from the vegan fad while it lasts?

Not sure that is true as people are fooled by buligar cavair
and it's the mid priced wines that have the biggest markup on them.
So it's those paying abpout £8 for a bottle of wine that are the most
fooled.
I'd stick to my £3.99 thunderbird ;-)



If the co-op are embracing veganism as part of their ethical policies
shouldn't that also stop selling meat, milk, butter, eggs, fish etc.?

Well thre's a differnce to embracing and totalling converting.

it's like those that want to help the enviroment, will they give up flying
to another country,,
will they give up their cars, their gas central heating.
Will those against slavery boycotte the tate gallery which was built from
the profits
of slaverery.


I'm not sure why vegans are paying more for food.

They aren't, it's mostly due to supply and demand.

And if you grow your own in the garden of have an allottment it hardly
costs anything.

When I go and buy
fruit and vegetables, nuts, spicy bean burgers and a variety of other
goods I don't seem to be paying more than anyone else, however I don't
get these items from the vegan aisle!

I doubt most vegans do, friends of mine that have been veggies for years
wouldn't be fooled by this.
But who is stupid enough to pay money to go to an art gallery to see
painting
that an artist couldn't sell in his liftime, if they were crap then why
aren't they still crap
but cost millions to buy ?

Because he was ahead of his time, silly.

On 6 May 2021 at 18:44:14 BST, "alan_m" wrote:

On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.



https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html

In my experience the Coop is the most expensive retailer of food items
in the market place, especially where they have a near monopoly in rural
areas.

Around my way where there is competition from not only the main
supermarkets, both German supermarkets and quite a few independents
their stores have closed over the past decade.

I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely a
mention in this thread - just money.

* those who can afford to choose
--
Cheers, Rob

On Fri, 7 May 2021 08:56:44 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip

I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely a
mention in this thread - just money.

Good point Rob and I think one answer will be where there is a
critical mass of vegans to make others realise it's more 'normal' (for
an evolved human in 2021) to not treat animals the way some currently
do. (Aligning their actions with their morals).

* those who can afford to choose

Again, something that will / is changing as the popularity for a vegan
lifestyle increases and quantity of scale and competition forces the
prices down, that along with making the meat / dairy / egg farmers pay
the real cost of their 'output' and removing any subsidies for any
food stuffs that aren't sustainable (like meat, dairy and eggs).

As mentioned elsewhere, how can a box of blueberries be more expensive
than a chunk of beef?

Start charging any industry for the cost of it's pollution or fining
it for polluting (that impacts all of us) are sometimes the only way
you can get these industries to change, and they either change or go
bust (demonstrating that they weren't really viable in the first
place, when the true costs are considered).

As we remove livestock from areas that are just feeding livestock
(directly or indirectly) we can grow human consumable produce on much
of it and it's suggested that if we were only to use those areas that
is easily viable, there would still be more than enough area to grow
more food than we need.

I was thinking about eggs and how we think that it's ok to keep taking
the eggs away from them (any bird) and that's 'ok'.

eg, In nature a bird would lay a clutch of eggs (say 1 to 5 typically)
then stop, incubate them, see them fledge and eventually 'leave the
nest' and wouldn't keep doing that all year round, just in the
'breeding season'?

Why do we disassociate chickens from these same birds and so think
it's ok to keep taking the eggs away, forcing them to carry on
creating eggs (in an unnatural quantity) until they are exhausted and
killed, simply because they are no longer productive at that
industrial level?

Cheers, T i m

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:52:32 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 08:56:44 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip
I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely a
mention in this thread - just money.
Good point Rob and I think one answer will be where there is a
critical mass of vegans to make others realise it's more 'normal' (for
an evolved human in 2021) to not treat animals the way some currently
do. (Aligning their actions with their morals).

First they have to realise what's going on, and whether it is cruel or just nature,
with us at the top of the food chain.
I was atv a Spanish wedding in spain years ago as my veggie frinds ask for
some nom meat food. They were asked why they don't eat meat as that's what God put animals on the Earth for .
I expected a massive arguement and raised voives but my veggie friends just shook their heads and walked away.

I did ask my veggoe frined recently whether thier olive oil was vegan, they lok at me confused and said of course it's
not meat and its not cruel to pick them.

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food...ng-bird-deaths
So I left them trying to work out were their olive oil comes from.



* those who can afford to choose
Again, something that will / is changing as the popularity for a vegan
lifestyle increases and quantity of scale and competition forces the
prices down, that along with making the meat / dairy / egg farmers pay
the real cost of their 'output' and removing any subsidies for any
food stuffs that aren't sustainable (like meat, dairy and eggs).

yes a lot of political back handers especailly in the EU, where everyone is expected to contribute
their money to fund cheap meat production and dairy.
You're tax money has gone into this in the past, whether that will continue though
is a little uncertain.


As mentioned elsewhere, how can a box of blueberries be more expensive
than a chunk of beef?

How can a pint of beer (mostly water) be more expensive than cola , orange juice or even tea.
But don;t forget how expensive was but its now so cheap to get it from the other side
of the world, but is tea vegan ?


Start charging any industry for the cost of it's pollution or fining
it for polluting (that impacts all of us) are sometimes the only way
you can get these industries to change, and they either change or go
bust (demonstrating that they weren't really viable in the first
place, when the true costs are considered).

That would be very difficult to do, even if it's the right thing.
It's like raising the price of petrol a few fold to offset it;s damage.
How many would support that ?


As we remove livestock from areas that are just feeding livestock
(directly or indirectly) we can grow human consumable produce on much
of it and it's suggested that if we were only to use those areas that
is easily viable, there would still be more than enough area to grow
more food than we need.

I think it;s more difficult to transport things like fresh veg from the other side of the world that
it is to do the same with frozen meat.


I was thinking about eggs and how we think that it's ok to keep taking
the eggs away from them (any bird) and that's 'ok'.

Maybe they just get used to it.
In todays world in the UK if yuo have gets you don't expect them to die from hunger
por disease this is not so true in africa, such things are expected, it;s why they have so many children per adult.
Which is also the same with animals.

eg, In nature a bird would lay a clutch of eggs (say 1 to 5 typically)
then stop, incubate them, see them fledge and eventually 'leave the
nest' and wouldn't keep doing that all year round, just in the
'breeding season'?

So why does a spider lay 1000s of eegs ?


Why do we disassociate chickens from these same birds and so think
it's ok to keep taking the eggs away, forcing them to carry on
creating eggs (in an unnatural quantity) until they are exhausted and
killed, simply because they are no longer productive at that
industrial level?

My veggies friends parents keep chicken and they do eat their eggs
but the are not commercaily sold adn I don;t think they force them to lay eggs.


Cheers, T i m

On 7 May 2021 at 16:11:13 BST, "whisky-dave" wrote:

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:52:32 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 08:56:44 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip
I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely a
mention in this thread - just money.
Good point Rob and I think one answer will be where there is a
critical mass of vegans to make others realise it's more 'normal' (for
an evolved human in 2021) to not treat animals the way some currently
do. (Aligning their actions with their morals).

Yes, of course - *you* make the point - but it's not commonly made.


First they have to realise what's going on, and whether it is cruel or just
nature,
with us at the top of the food chain.
I was atv a Spanish wedding in spain years ago as my veggie frinds ask for
some nom meat food. They were asked why they don't eat meat as that's what
God put animals on the Earth for .
I expected a massive arguement and raised voives but my veggie friends just
shook their heads and walked away.

I did ask my veggoe frined recently whether thier olive oil was vegan, they
lok at me confused and said of course it's
not meat and its not cruel to pick them.

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food...ng-bird-deaths
So I left them trying to work out were their olive oil comes from.

Never knew that - thanks. But I'd extend to human animals - are they paid a
decent wage etc? And thinking about it - life of any sort will be affected
through human mucking about with food production and much else.

There was an academic on R4 earlier today who just stopped short of saying
trees have feelings and are pretty much sentient. I think she was making the
point that that's the way we need to be thinking. I reckon she's pretty much
right - not that it'd make much difference.




* those who can afford to choose
Again, something that will / is changing as the popularity for a vegan
lifestyle increases and quantity of scale and competition forces the
prices down, that along with making the meat / dairy / egg farmers pay
the real cost of their 'output' and removing any subsidies for any
food stuffs that aren't sustainable (like meat, dairy and eggs).

yes a lot of political back handers especailly in the EU, where everyone is
expected to contribute
their money to fund cheap meat production and dairy.
You're tax money has gone into this in the past, whether that will continue
though
is a little uncertain.


As mentioned elsewhere, how can a box of blueberries be more expensive
than a chunk of beef?

Nuts.


How can a pint of beer (mostly water) be more expensive than cola , orange
juice or even tea


With beer it's mainly tax - one of many government distortions.

But don;t forget how expensive was but its now so cheap to get it from the
other side
of the world, but is tea vegan ?


Start charging any industry for the cost of it's pollution or fining
it for polluting (that impacts all of us) are sometimes the only way
you can get these industries to change, and they either change or go
bust (demonstrating that they weren't really viable in the first
place, when the true costs are considered).

That would be very difficult to do, even if it's the right thing.
It's like raising the price of petrol a few fold to offset it;s damage.
How many would support that ?


As we remove livestock from areas that are just feeding livestock
(directly or indirectly) we can grow human consumable produce on much
of it and it's suggested that if we were only to use those areas that
is easily viable, there would still be more than enough area to grow
more food than we need.

I think it;s more difficult to transport things like fresh veg from the other
side of the world that
it is to do the same with frozen meat.


I was thinking about eggs and how we think that it's ok to keep taking
the eggs away from them (any bird) and that's 'ok'.

Maybe they just get used to it.
In todays world in the UK if yuo have gets you don't expect them to die from
hunger
por disease this is not so true in africa, such things are expected, it;s why
they have so many children per adult.
Which is also the same with animals.

eg, In nature a bird would lay a clutch of eggs (say 1 to 5 typically)
then stop, incubate them, see them fledge and eventually 'leave the
nest' and wouldn't keep doing that all year round, just in the
'breeding season'?

So why does a spider lay 1000s of eegs ?


Why do we disassociate chickens from these same birds and so think
it's ok to keep taking the eggs away, forcing them to carry on
creating eggs (in an unnatural quantity) until they are exhausted and
killed, simply because they are no longer productive at that
industrial level?

I don't know - but don't hens just ovulate 'normally' if kept in the garden
and away from bloke hens? And the eggs would just rot down or get eaten
somewhere along the food chain if they haven't been fertilised? Need to read
up on it :-)


My veggies friends parents keep chicken and they do eat their eggs
but the are not commercaily sold adn I don;t think they force them to lay
eggs.


Cheers, T i m


--
Cheers, Rob

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 12:52:32 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 08:56:44 +0000 (UTC), RJH
wrote:

snip
I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider
costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely
a
mention in this thread - just money.
Good point Rob and I think one answer will be where there is a
critical mass of vegans to make others realise it's more 'normal' (for
an evolved human in 2021) to not treat animals the way some currently
do. (Aligning their actions with their morals).

First they have to realise what's going on, and whether it is cruel or
just nature,
with us at the top of the food chain.
I was atv a Spanish wedding in spain years ago as my veggie frinds ask for
some nom meat food. They were asked why they don't eat meat as that's what
God put animals on the Earth for .
I expected a massive arguement and raised voives but my veggie friends
just shook their heads and walked away.

I did ask my veggoe frined recently whether thier olive oil was vegan,
they lok at me confused and said of course it's
not meat and its not cruel to pick them.

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food...ng-bird-deaths
So I left them trying to work out were their olive oil comes from.



* those who can afford to choose
Again, something that will / is changing as the popularity for a vegan
lifestyle increases and quantity of scale and competition forces the
prices down, that along with making the meat / dairy / egg farmers pay
the real cost of their 'output' and removing any subsidies for any
food stuffs that aren't sustainable (like meat, dairy and eggs).

yes a lot of political back handers especailly in the EU, where everyone
is expected to contribute
their money to fund cheap meat production and dairy.
You're tax money has gone into this in the past, whether that will
continue though
is a little uncertain.


As mentioned elsewhere, how can a box of blueberries be more expensive
than a chunk of beef?

How can a pint of beer (mostly water) be more
expensive than cola , orange juice or even tea.

They higher taxes, stupid.

But don;t forget how expensive was but its now so cheap
to get it from the other side of the world, but is tea vegan ?

Nope, they mince the birds sitting on the top of the tea bushes too.

Start charging any industry for the cost of it's pollution or fining
it for polluting (that impacts all of us) are sometimes the only way
you can get these industries to change, and they either change or go
bust (demonstrating that they weren't really viable in the first
place, when the true costs are considered).

That would be very difficult to do, even if it's the right thing.
It's like raising the price of petrol a few fold to offset it;s damage.
How many would support that ?


As we remove livestock from areas that are just feeding livestock
(directly or indirectly) we can grow human consumable produce on much
of it and it's suggested that if we were only to use those areas that
is easily viable, there would still be more than enough area to grow
more food than we need.

I think it;s more difficult to transport things like fresh veg from the
other side of the world that
it is to do the same with frozen meat.


I was thinking about eggs and how we think that it's ok to keep taking
the eggs away from them (any bird) and that's 'ok'.

Maybe they just get used to it.
In todays world in the UK if yuo have gets you don't expect them to die
from hunger
por disease this is not so true in africa, such things are expected, it;s
why they have so many children per adult.
Which is also the same with animals.

eg, In nature a bird would lay a clutch of eggs (say 1 to 5 typically)
then stop, incubate them, see them fledge and eventually 'leave the
nest' and wouldn't keep doing that all year round, just in the
'breeding season'?

So why does a spider lay 1000s of eegs ?


Why do we disassociate chickens from these same birds and so think
it's ok to keep taking the eggs away, forcing them to carry on
creating eggs (in an unnatural quantity) until they are exhausted and
killed, simply because they are no longer productive at that
industrial level?

My veggies friends parents keep chicken and they do eat their eggs
but the are not commercaily sold adn I don;t think they force them to lay
eggs.

Bet they stand over them waving a chopper and tell
them that if they dont lay, its the stew pot for them.

On 07/05/2021 09:56, RJH wrote:


I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely a
mention in this thread - just money.

But sticking a label on something saying vegan or organic often doesn't
mean those products are any better for animal welfare or sustainable
farming, or for climate change with all the food miles they travel.




--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Fri, 7 May 2021 14:39:02 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 07/05/2021 09:56, RJH wrote:


I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely a
mention in this thread - just money.

But sticking a label on something saying vegan or organic often doesn't
mean those products are any better for animal welfare

In general, 'vegan; does. Organic means little (as the animals are
still killed against their will).

or sustainable
farming,

All science mate.

or for climate change with all the food miles they travel.

Of course, but moving animals 1000 miles means it has to be done with
them alive ... or dead and typically frozen, moving most veg require
neither.

But food miles is a different discussion to the one of causing
unnecessary suffering, exploitation and death to animals.

Animals != food (other than to obligate carnivores).

Cheers, T i m

On 07/05/2021 18:15, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2021 14:39:02 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 07/05/2021 09:56, RJH wrote:


I wonder when we'll* stop obsessing about price and think about wider costs
like animal welfare, sustainable farming and working conditions? Barely a
mention in this thread - just money.

But sticking a label on something saying vegan or organic often doesn't
mean those products are any better for animal welfare

In general, 'vegan; does. Organic means little (as the animals are
still killed against their will).

Death is a natural event for all animals.

or sustainable
farming,

All science mate.

or for climate change with all the food miles they travel.

Of course, but moving animals 1000 miles means it has to be done with
them alive ... or dead and typically frozen, moving most veg require
neither.

But food miles is a different discussion to the one of causing
unnecessary suffering, exploitation and death to animals.

Death is a certainty, pain and suffering are optional. Shame you don't
care about animal welfare while the animal is alive.

Animals == food (for a natural, balanced diet).

On 07/05/2021 17:15, T i m wrote:

Of course, but moving animals 1000 miles means it has to be done with
them alive ... or dead and typically frozen, moving most veg require
neither.

The freshest vegetables available en masse are those that are harvested
and then frozen within a couple of hours or so.

Those that are harvested for processing into vegan copies of real food
require much more processing, of course, but aren't necessarily the
freshest available - any old rubbish can go into those as the final
meat-like product bears little resemblance to the original constituents.

You need to do some research into the foods you eat, and perhaps those
that you don't eat, as sounding off yet again with unfounded claims
weakens your position once more.

--
Spike

On Thursday, 6 May 2021 at 18:44:18 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.


https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html
In my experience the Coop is the most expensive retailer of food items
in the market place, especially where they have a near monopoly in rural
areas.

Not as expensive as the students union appear to be.
But I'll have to recheck when they are open again.

So for me it's lunch from the coop meal deals which I prefer to the sainsbury version
which is also a bit further to walk.


Currently (1pm) there was a queue to get into the pub.


Around my way where there is competition from not only the main
supermarkets, both German supermarkets and quite a few independents
their stores have closed over the past decade.

There's a german kebab place that always seems to have a few delivery people waiting outside
to take ordres to the lazy.





--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 06/05/2021 18:44, alan_m wrote:
On 06/05/2021 14:49, T i m wrote:
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.


https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html


In my experience the Coop is the most expensive retailer of food items
in the market place, especially where they have a near monopoly in rural
areas.

That's the case in Worthing in the areas more than 1/2 a mile from
the town centre where M&S, Iceland, Lidl and Waitrose are the main
shops.

Despite being on opposite sides of the road, the Waitrose is busy
and you can buy a small basket of items and use the self-serve
tills or the basket-only tills and never have more than a handful
of people in front of you.

Meanwhile, over the road in Lidl, getting out is typically a 15 minute
wait with a queue of 20 people ahead of you. Sod that.

I was wondering if they have actually made vegan meat taste of meat and not
cardboard yet.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
It looks like the CoOp are leading a drive to reduce the disparity
between the cost of meat and animal_cruelty_free alternatives.

https://www.sharecast.com/news/news-...--7909926.html

I was wondering how all that fits in with how all the farming
subsidies are handed out.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articl...exit-explained

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/743169...-and-dairy.pdf

Right, off for a walk to the CoOp (via the polling station) to show
support for their incentive ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 9 May 2021 18:14:56 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

I was wondering if they have actually made vegan meat taste of meat and not
cardboard yet.

Yes ... but what's the need to only eat things that taste like burnt
animal flesh ... oh yes, the dopamine you are now addicted to! ;-(

If you like a burger, treat yourself to something like a 'No Bull
Burger' and add what you normally add to a burger (we add fried onion,
melted scheese, mushroom, relish etc) and tell me if that doesn't give
you the same sort of pleasure you would get from the same range of
things in a meat burger.

Cheers, T i m

On 09/05/2021 21:02, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 May 2021 18:14:56 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

I was wondering if they have actually made vegan meat taste of meat and not
cardboard yet.

Yes ... but what's the need to only eat things that taste like burnt
animal flesh ... oh yes, the dopamine you are now addicted to! ;-(

Most of us don't burn meat. Perhaps that's where you're going wrong?

If you like a burger, treat yourself to something like a 'No Bull
Burger' and add what you normally add to a burger (we add fried onion,
melted scheese, mushroom, relish etc) and tell me if that doesn't give
you the same sort of pleasure you would get from the same range of
things in a meat burger.

I haven't tried that specific make, but substitute meat rarely has the
same texture or taste of meat.

On Mon, 10 May 2021 00:43:27 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

On 09/05/2021 21:02, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 May 2021 18:14:56 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

I was wondering if they have actually made vegan meat taste of meat and not
cardboard yet.

Yes ... but what's the need to only eat things that taste like burnt
animal flesh ... oh yes, the dopamine you are now addicted to! ;-(

Most of us don't burn meat. Perhaps that's where you're going wrong?

If you like a burger, treat yourself to something like a 'No Bull
Burger' and add what you normally add to a burger (we add fried onion,
melted scheese, mushroom, relish etc) and tell me if that doesn't give
you the same sort of pleasure you would get from the same range of
things in a meat burger.

I haven't tried that specific make, but substitute meat rarely has the
same texture or taste of meat.

Quorn chunks come pretty close
--

Mike

On Mon, 10 May 2021 08:21:06 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

snip

I haven't tried that specific make, but substitute meat rarely has the
same texture or taste of meat.

Quorn chunks come pretty close

Quite, and this simply typifies this blinkered / backward attitude
about what we eat.

It's like the British going to Spain and only wanting to eat fish and
chips, because that's all they are used to, or the old folk who
wouldn't even try a curry, lasagne or spag bol because it's 'all
foreign muck', compared with the meat and two veg they have every day
.... of their sad and unadventurous / closed minded lives.

If you happen to be born into an environment (parents / culture /
circumstances) or culture / religion where you don't drink milk after
you wean (as nature intended), offer them some milk and they would
think you were weird.

'Sorry, I'm a big boy now and don't particularly want the growth fluid
meant for a baby, and especially one from a completely different
species'!

Now, if you didn't want to eat your cereal dry or tea / coffle black
and didn't like them with just water or orange juice, the chances are
you would like them with any one of the white liquids they make from
plants.

Like industrial Oat milk.
Take oats and water, blend, sieve, use.

Industrial Cows milk (the milk from a cow, for a cow, not the output
of a machine or chemical process, like spirits, tea or cola).

Artificially extract semen from bull, often by using an anal electro
stimulator.
Take stolen semen and after putting your whole arm up a cows rectum to
manipulate her cervix, inject bull semen in her.
Wait while cow carries calf to birth.

Once born, if it's male:
a) Take calf and shoot him in the head then cut his throat.
b) Keep him in small pen for a few months then shoot him in the head
and cut his throat. Chop into bits and sell the flesh to humans who
can't consume it as it is. (Any supplied to carnivores can be eaten as
it is).

If she's female, either shoot her in the head or keep her to enslave
her like her mother for 7 years before shooting her in the head and
cutting her throat.

For the mother cow in the meantime, you make her make and carry (by
many years of exploitation) 10x more milk than she would naturally,
until she's no longer able to produce sufficient milk (no longer
financially viable as a milk producing machine) then shoot her in the
head and cut her throat.

https://ibb.co/87pYK5S

Cheers, T i m

On 10/05/2021 08:21, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Mon, 10 May 2021 00:43:27 +0100, Fredxx
wrote:

On 09/05/2021 21:02, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 May 2021 18:14:56 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

I was wondering if they have actually made vegan meat taste of meat and not
cardboard yet.

Yes ... but what's the need to only eat things that taste like burnt
animal flesh ... oh yes, the dopamine you are now addicted to! ;-(

Most of us don't burn meat. Perhaps that's where you're going wrong?

If you like a burger, treat yourself to something like a 'No Bull
Burger' and add what you normally add to a burger (we add fried onion,
melted scheese, mushroom, relish etc) and tell me if that doesn't give
you the same sort of pleasure you would get from the same range of
things in a meat burger.

I haven't tried that specific make, but substitute meat rarely has the
same texture or taste of meat.

Quorn chunks come pretty close

I find Quorn products variable, some have an unpleasant tang, others
where you might expect the meat texture as in sausages seem ok.

On Monday, 10 May 2021 at 00:43:30 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 09/05/2021 21:02, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 May 2021 18:14:56 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

I was wondering if they have actually made vegan meat taste of meat and not
cardboard yet.

Yes ... but what's the need to only eat things that taste like burnt
animal flesh ... oh yes, the dopamine you are now addicted to! ;-(
Most of us don't burn meat. Perhaps that's where you're going wrong?

I remmeber when my french flatmate cook me a stealk for the first time.
She placed it in the pan then almost immediately took it out again claiming it was cooked.
I bet a vet would have brought it back to life.
I put mine back in the pan and she'd eaten hers by the time mine was nice and brown and crispy around the edges


If you like a burger, treat yourself to something like a 'No Bull
Burger' and add what you normally add to a burger (we add fried onion,
melted scheese, mushroom, relish etc) and tell me if that doesn't give
you the same sort of pleasure you would get from the same range of
things in a meat burger.
I haven't tried that specific make, but substitute meat rarely has the
same texture or taste of meat.

That can be an advantage I like linda mccartney mozzarella burgers but not the
other ones. I don't like the fat on bacon and was always picking it off.
But I like the plant bacon sainsburys have tastes enough like bacon and I don't have to spend
most of the time cutting the fat off because there isn't any.
I like the pukka vegan pies more than some of the real meat ones.