Another example.

We're fashioning a kitchen at work.
Gave my eldest son (recently turned 30) the tools and basic instruction
necessary to make a hole for a sink.

Much ****ing about later there's a sink in the worktop, on the wonk
slightly, too close to the back so that the worktop can't quite reach
the wall unless we severely *******ise the rear of the base unit. But it
will certainly do.

Positively I suggested that he had learned some pitfalls and gotchas so
that if he was to fit a sink again it would be easier and he'd do a
better job.

His retort was that he'd learned that if he needed to fit a sink again
and wanted a better job doing he'd get someone in. And i'm pretty sure
he was serious!

Keeps folk in work I suppose.

R D S wrote:
Positively I suggested that he had learned some pitfalls and gotchas so
that if he was to fit a sink again it would be easier and he'd do a
better job.

His retort was that he'd learned that if he needed to fit a sink again
and wanted a better job doing he'd get someone in. And i'm pretty sure
he was serious!

It's useful to know when to play to your strengths and when to delegate.
Subcontracting a job costs money, but if you contract it to someone who can
do it quicker and better than you then you get a better result at the end of
the day, and you can use the time saved on something more profitable. If
you can't see you're going to be installing many sinks in future, why would
you invest in learning that skill?

Theo

In article ,
Theo wrote:
R D S wrote:
Positively I suggested that he had learned some pitfalls and gotchas
so that if he was to fit a sink again it would be easier and he'd do
a better job.

His retort was that he'd learned that if he needed to fit a sink again
and wanted a better job doing he'd get someone in. And i'm pretty
sure he was serious!

It's useful to know when to play to your strengths and when to delegate.
Subcontracting a job costs money, but if you contract it to someone who
can do it quicker and better than you then you get a better result at
the end of the day, and you can use the time saved on something more
profitable. If you can't see you're going to be installing many sinks
in future, why would you invest in learning that skill?

Because the skills involved can be used for lots of other things too?

--
*Ever stop to think and forget to start again?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 14:01:17 +0000, R D S wrote:

Another example.

We're fashioning a kitchen at work.
Gave my eldest son (recently turned 30) the tools and basic instruction
necessary to make a hole for a sink.

Much ****ing about later there's a sink in the worktop, on the wonk
slightly, too close to the back so that the worktop can't quite reach
the wall unless we severely *******ise the rear of the base unit. But it
will certainly do.

Positively I suggested that he had learned some pitfalls and gotchas so
that if he was to fit a sink again it would be easier and he'd do a
better job.

His retort was that he'd learned that if he needed to fit a sink again
and wanted a better job doing he'd get someone in. And i'm pretty sure
he was serious!

A clever boy you have there. I know so many DIYers much older who
still do not know their limits - and probably never will. Give him a
pat on the back!

On 21/01/2021 15:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Because the skills involved can be used for lots of other things too?

Indeed, plus the joy of getting a job done yourself that you're proud
of. (Assuming you ultimately gain those skills!)

On 21/01/2021 16:41, Cursitor Doom wrote:
His retort was that he'd learned that if he needed to fit a sink again
and wanted a better job doing he'd get someone in. And i'm pretty sure
he was serious!

A clever boy you have there. I know so many DIYers much older who
still do not know their limits - and probably never will. Give him a
pat on the back!

Haha,
I've encountered some professionals who never learned their limits, over
the years.

On 21/01/2021 14:01, R D S wrote:
Another example.

We're fashioning a kitchen at work.
Gave my eldest son (recently turned 30) the tools and basic instruction
necessary to make a hole for a sink.

Much ****ing about later there's a sink in the worktop, on the wonk
slightly, too close to the back so that the worktop can't quite reach
the wall unless we severely *******ise the rear of the base unit. But it
will certainly do.

Positively I suggested that he had learned some pitfalls and gotchas so
that if he was to fit a sink again it would be easier and he'd do a
better job.

His retort was that he'd learned that if he needed to fit a sink again
and wanted a better job doing he'd get someone in. And i'm pretty sure
he was serious!

Keeps folk in work I suppose.

Tricky one. I suspect if you went through the planning exercise with
him, including positioning/marking of the sink and gotchas he may have
found the experience more positive. Instead of which he probably got
some veiled criticism.

Just my 2p

Always assuming he wanted to do it himself.

On 21/01/2021 14:01, R D S wrote:
Another example.

We're fashioning a kitchen at work.
Gave my eldest son (recently turned 30) the tools and basic instruction
necessary to make a hole for a sink.

Much ****ing about later there's a sink in the worktop, on the wonk
slightly, too close to the back so that the worktop can't quite reach
the wall unless we severely *******ise the rear of the base unit. But it
will certainly do.

Positively I suggested that he had learned some pitfalls and gotchas so
that if he was to fit a sink again it would be easier and he'd do a
better job.

His retort was that he'd learned that if he needed to fit a sink again
and wanted a better job doing he'd get someone in. And i'm pretty sure
he was serious!

Keeps folk in work I suppose.

For the first time ever, I've had someone in to do work in the house
(other than having new gas or electricity meters or sorting out phone
line faults), but in my defence, it was installing granite worktops.

With anything else, my father used to help, although these days my
eldest son (17) does. My middle son (15) actually asked for tools and
his own workbench for Christmas.

We're heading the right way here.

On 21/01/2021 16:53, Fredxx wrote:

Tricky one. I suspect if you went through the planning exercise with
him, including positioning/marking of the sink and gotchas he may have
found the experience more positive. Instead of which he probably got
some veiled criticism.

I gave rudimentary advice prior.
I'm trying to cure myself of being a control freak so i'm just leaving
folk to do stuff themselves lately.
Particularly where it doesn't matter enormously if it's a top notch job.

And I wasn't critical at all afterwards, I admitted all the gotchas i'd
suffered in my recent (and ongoing) kitchen fit, and it's the 3rd time
i've fit a kitchen into that room. Next time will be a cinch, I must
almost be an expert now.

Anyway the sink is in, the waste was piped up today. Should get mains
done tomorrow. And i've not lifted a finger, happy days.

On 21/01/2021 17:20, R D S wrote:
On 21/01/2021 16:53, Fredxx wrote:

Tricky one. I suspect if you went through the planning exercise with
him, including positioning/marking of the sink and gotchas he may have
found the experience more positive. Instead of which he probably got
some veiled criticism.

I gave rudimentary advice prior.
I'm trying to cure myself of being a control freak so i'm just leaving
folk to do stuff themselves lately.
Particularly where it doesn't matter enormously if it's a top notch job.

I supposed I might have checked lines before any cutting.

And I wasn't critical at all afterwards, I admitted all the gotchas i'd
suffered in my recent (and ongoing) kitchen fit, and it's the 3rd time
i've fit a kitchen into that room. Next time will be a cinch, I must
almost be an expert now.

Planning a fourth already? Sounds a little masochistic!

Anyway the sink is in, the waste was piped up today. Should get mains
done tomorrow. And i've not lifted a finger, happy days.

All sounds good.

You have to realise, some people are just not good at it. I was complimented
on the very symmetrical and lined up doors on my kitchen cabinets after
replacing hinges. I pointed out that there are ways to make sure the sag is
the same on them all, and hardly rocket science.
If a blind bloke can do it then why not the fitters, half the time cos
they are rushing it and need to get to the next job, when you do it yourself
you can think it through, be ready wityh tools and wedges to act as third
hands etc, and you can often feel wonky things before you drill right
through or saw it all the way, whatever you are doing. Having said that
though fitting sinks to worktops in Kitchens with wobbly walls is not easy,
and I've not done it all myself, ever, since I hate messing with things to
do with water, as it usually means crawling about and finding jammed
stopcoks or going in the loft.
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"R D S" wrote in message
...
Another example.

We're fashioning a kitchen at work.
Gave my eldest son (recently turned 30) the tools and basic instruction
necessary to make a hole for a sink.

Much ****ing about later there's a sink in the worktop, on the wonk
slightly, too close to the back so that the worktop can't quite reach the
wall unless we severely *******ise the rear of the base unit. But it will
certainly do.

Positively I suggested that he had learned some pitfalls and gotchas so
that if he was to fit a sink again it would be easier and he'd do a better
job.

His retort was that he'd learned that if he needed to fit a sink again and
wanted a better job doing he'd get someone in. And i'm pretty sure he was
serious!

Keeps folk in work I suppose.

On 21/01/2021 14:33, Theo wrote:
If
you can't see you're going to be installing many sinks in future, why would
you invest in learning that skill?

Because is a series of generalised skills that are useful almost
universally in DIY.

Bill

Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote

You have to realise, some people are just not good at it.

Yep, in fact you can make a case that most arent.

I was complimented on the very symmetrical and lined up doors on my
kitchen cabinets after replacing hinges. I pointed out that there are ways
to make sure the sag is the same on them all, and hardly rocket science.

If a blind bloke can do it then why not the fitters, half the time cos
they are rushing it and need to get to the next job, when you do it
yourself you can think it through, be ready wityh tools and wedges to act
as third hands etc, and you can often feel wonky things before you drill
right through or saw it all the way, whatever you are doing. Having said
that though fitting sinks to worktops in Kitchens with wobbly walls is not
easy, and I've not done it all myself, ever, since I hate messing with
things to do with water, as it usually means crawling about and finding
jammed stopcoks or going in the loft.

I have.

"R D S" wrote in message
...
Another example.

We're fashioning a kitchen at work.
Gave my eldest son (recently turned 30) the tools and basic instruction
necessary to make a hole for a sink.

Much ****ing about later there's a sink in the worktop, on the wonk
slightly, too close to the back so that the worktop can't quite reach the
wall unless we severely *******ise the rear of the base unit. But it will
certainly do.

Positively I suggested that he had learned some pitfalls and gotchas so
that if he was to fit a sink again it would be easier and he'd do a
better job.

His retort was that he'd learned that if he needed to fit a sink again
and wanted a better job doing he'd get someone in. And i'm pretty sure he
was serious!

Keeps folk in work I suppose.

On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 07:25:18 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:51:44 +0000, R D S wrote:

On 21/01/2021 15:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Because the skills involved can be used for lots of other things too?

Indeed, plus the joy of getting a job done yourself that you're proud
of. (Assuming you ultimately gain those skills!)

And that's the thing.

I have been into stuff since I was very young, making electrical
projects (all on my own, no peer or mentor of such things at home)
when I was still at primary school.

I build a 6' rowing dinghy in woodwork 'lessons?' at Secondary School,
had already stripped and rebuilt a car engine before I was taught how
to at Technical College.

In our electronics class at TC we (12 of us) all assembled ZX81 kits.
Mine was one of the few that worked first time and I spend the next
term repairing all the rest. I was interested and willing to
apply the relevant skills and attention to detail.

When the Decwriter / modem link went wrong in the 'computer room',
they would come and drag me out of my class to fix it!? (I was 15-17
at that point).

*Very few* of my fellow classmates had anything like the interests in
stuff that I had, and that was then. Few of my mates ever did much
practical stuff (and only one was very similar to me, building /
racing RC boats and cars, rebuilding / upgrading real cars etc).

Neither of us got our interest from our parents.

So, I tried to instill the same practical leaning in my daughter,
bringing her up as a 'person', rather than 'a girl' (at that time
etc), building stuff for / with her and encouraging her to help / try
stuff whenever possible ... and whilst she does do most the work when
working on her car / van / motorbike (under supervision) and she's
particularly good at sharpening her own chainsaw chains, I wouldn't
say that she has the sort of 'buck stops here' confidence I had at
that age.

At her age now (30) I'd had a house for 10 years and had personally
done everything that needed doing, gas, electric, water, floors and
removed chimney breasts etc, not because I had done any of that to any
real level before, but because I couldn't afford to pay the mortgage
AND pay someone else to do it all?

So I didn't have a flash car, I had a Morris Minor van because 1) it
was cheap (£25 + £5 for a s/h gearbox I had to fit in the shop car
park I bought it from to be able to drive it home) and 2) it was
practical when you were rebuilding a house (and running a home built
mobile disco weekends). ;-)

I built the kitcar (with the Mrs this time) because I was fed up
welding cars of the time.

Daughter will often 'have a go' at stuff and was the 'go-to' person
when she worked (in the cash office at Next) for building their
display furniture and decorating the display areas.

She re-decorated the flat after her half-sister died and the 'cutting
in' would put most of us to shame (even me). ;-)

I have given up saying to people 'all you have to do is ...' because I
now realise some people really don't have a clue, the tools or (more
importantly), the interest.

As mentioned elsewhere though, it's also good / important to know your
limits / skillset / cost_for_risk_ratio and for me that would be the
likes of plastering and roofing. I am also no good at programming (try
that I might) and like chess, too many 'important' variables to keep
in yer head for me (and my right brain).

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:54:02 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote:

snip

For the first time ever, I've had someone in to do work in the house
(other than having new gas or electricity meters or sorting out phone
line faults), but in my defence, it was installing granite worktops.

I have given some IT help to a granite worktop Co and that including
the setting up of the PC part of a pretty large flat-bed CNC cutter /
mill.

They were making their first sink hole cutout with it and it it made
two perfect hole outlines, cutting the hole out perfectly ... then the
mill exited the hole area without lifting ... Doh (someone had
forgotten to put that in the code but to be fair to them it was second
hand and they got little in the way of training). ;-(

With anything else, my father used to help,

My Dad *never* helped me but I was often asked (expected) to help him.
I did learn a lot though (carpentry).

It was my Uncle who was more interested in doing stuff *for / with*
me, building my first 'soap box cart' that I put to great use for a
couple of years (even getting fridges and the likes for Mum). ;-)

although these days my
eldest son (17) does.

Yeah, the Mrs was my 'mate' and still helps where she can (arthritis).

My middle son (15) actually asked for tools and
his own workbench for Christmas.

Excellent.

We're heading the right way here.

Yup, and encouragement is important as we all like to know what we do
is good / appreciated (only when it's worthy of such of course) so
making / repairing things for others can give a big boost.

It was my Uncle who bought some of my first tools and I've still got
and use many of them.

It was lovely to be able to pay him back when someone backed into his
Reliant Robin front wing, putting a fist size hole in it and for him
to come back after a weekend away with his sister, to find the hole
gone and it all painted. ;-)

Or when the Mrs said to him ... 'So if you could wave a magic wand and
your tiled fire surround and hearth was gone and the fire on the wall
and it cost you nothing, you would do it ...?

Him, 'Erm yes?'

Her to me, 'Right let's pop home and get the tools ... ' ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Owain Lastname wrote :
Worktops and sheet flooring are on my don't-try list, as it's too easy to get
it a tiny bit wrong and spoil a whole lot of expensive material.

Did my worktops 35 years ago, no problems.

Re-did my sheet flooring about three months ago, my largish kitchen had
been recently decorated, but I took the skirting boards off this time
to make a proper job of it - skirting on top of flooring.

Because I had done the decorating, I had kept the left over paints, so
once the skirting was back in place I was able to tidy up the damage to
the paint on the wall. Had I 'got a man in' it would have taken a whole
lot longer, finished job would not have been as good and likely with no
matching paint - the whole kitchen would have needed doing. Start to
finish, done it five easy days, with kitchen usable each evening for
cooking and meals.

And it's a lot easier to moan about someone else's bad job than live with the
consequences of one's own mistakes.

The other way to look at it is, that you can learn from your mistakes.
Better to look at your own mistakes for years, than looking at a
professionals mistakes. I never just wade straight into jobs at home,
unless I have to - usually I will spend a bit of time (sometimes weeks)
researching and planning how I intend tackling it.

I had intended to replace the kitchen floor for a couple of years,
before I actually took the bull by the horns. Before doing it I spent a
few weeks deciding what I wanted to use, discussed colours and
materials etc., research places to buy and cost, measured twice,
ordered on the Saturday, delivered on the Monday, job all done by
Friday.

It happens that R D S formulated :
Much ****ing about later there's a sink in the worktop, on the wonk slightly,
too close to the back so that the worktop can't quite reach the wall unless
we severely *******ise the rear of the base unit. But it will certainly do.

Did he waterproof the cut edge of the worktop as well as seal the sink
to the worktop? Many pros do the later, but miss out the prior with the
result that any moisture bursts the worktop eventually.

On 21/01/2021 15:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Theo wrote:
R D S wrote:
Positively I suggested that he had learned some pitfalls and gotchas
so that if he was to fit a sink again it would be easier and he'd do
a better job.

His retort was that he'd learned that if he needed to fit a sink again
and wanted a better job doing he'd get someone in. And i'm pretty
sure he was serious!

It's useful to know when to play to your strengths and when to delegate.
Subcontracting a job costs money, but if you contract it to someone who
can do it quicker and better than you then you get a better result at
the end of the day, and you can use the time saved on something more
profitable. If you can't see you're going to be installing many sinks
in future, why would you invest in learning that skill?

Because the skills involved can be used for lots of other things too?


Like knowing how to hire and use a core drill to break into
safety deposit boxes, a la Hatton Garden ?.

On 22/01/2021 20:27, Andrew wrote:

Like knowing how to hire and use a core drill to break into
safety deposit boxes, a la Hatton Garden ?.

Or knowing NOT to hire a core drill but buy it for cash from a dodgy
market stall.

A few years back I went to a few boot sales and there was always a van
with southern Irish plates selling 110V electrical tools and
transformers. Many believed all were knock off from building sites.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 22/01/2021 10:50, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that R D S formulated :
Much ****ing about later there's a sink in the worktop, on the wonk
slightly, too close to the back so that the worktop can't quite reach
the wall unless we severely *******ise the rear of the base unit. But
it will certainly do.

Did he waterproof the cut edge of the worktop as well as seal the sink
to the worktop? Many pros do the later, but miss out the prior with the
result that any moisture bursts the worktop eventually.

I think one area that is lacking is the teaching of basics in school
these days. One of our locals who has worked on engines for years is
trying to start something for the local kids, allowing them to get their
hands dirty and using basic tools.