Rust? So one wonders if the type of alloy has changed or maybe any plating
on the nuts has worn off.
Brian

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"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
I have put different wheels with winter tyres on my car for the last three
years. This year I found that all 4 of the allow wheels were stuck on and I
had to pull has hard as I could to get them off. The car was supported by
a trolley jack.

Looking at the wheels there are signs of iron rust on the allow wheels
where they are held to the wheels hubs by the bolts.

After using google it looks like I am not the only person to have had this
problem. Nearly all my previous vehicles had had steel wheels and I have
never know one to be stuck on.

Would smearing the hub or the wheel with copper or silicone grease stop
the wheels from being stuck on?


--
Michael Chare

"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
On 2 Dec 2020 at 15:16:53 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"

wrote:

In article ,
NY wrote:
Does anyone know why most (all?) car manufacturers changed at about the
same time (late 70s?) from using nuts onto studs in the hub, to bolts
into holes in the hub? The latter is a lot easier because you can
"hang" the wheel from the central protrusion in the hub, and rotate it
until the holes in the wheel line up with those in the hub, rather than
having to simultaneously locate all four holes in the wheel with the
four protruding bolts on the hub.

Simply don't agree. With most offset wheels, they won't hang on the hub
anyway. So you need two hands to keep them in place - leaving none for
the
bolt. My last BMW with bolts provided a dummy bolt in the toolkit -
basically a bolt with no head. To help with alignment.

Quite agree. It's much easier to get them on studs.

We'll have to agree to differ. For me, it's easier to locate one large hole
on a wheel onto one large central boss, than to try to locate four holes
onto four studs simultaneously. Having located the wheel on the boss, using
both hands to take the wheel's weight, I can then transfer one hand to the
centre to hold the wheel in place (I agree: otherwise it may fall off again)
and use the other hand to rotate the wheel until the holes line up and I can
insert a bolt to hold the wheel from falling off the boss.

There must have been a reason why most manufacturers all changed from wheel
nuts to wheel bolts at about the same time, and I presumed it was done to
make it (as I find it) easier to replace the wheel. Or is there another
advantage with using bolts? I wonder if it's because the head of a bolt can
be made conical (to mate with a conical depression in the wheel) which helps
to locate the wheel more accurately on the hub: as each bolt is tightened,
it centres the wheel about its bolt hole. Nuts with a conical profile are
harder to make (they also have to be used the correct way round) so there is
a tendency for the wheel to rest with each hole asymmetric about its stud,
and tightening the nuts does not then correct that.

In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Rust? So one wonders if the type of alloy has changed or maybe any plating
on the nuts has worn off.


Brian, the wheel is located by a collar on the hub. The studs or bolts
merely holding it on. It's between the hub and wheel where the corrosion
occurs, jamming it on.

--
*Marathon runners with bad footwear suffer the agony of defeat*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
NY wrote:
"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
On 2 Dec 2020 at 15:16:53 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"

wrote:

In article ,
NY wrote:
Does anyone know why most (all?) car manufacturers changed at about the
same time (late 70s?) from using nuts onto studs in the hub, to bolts
into holes in the hub? The latter is a lot easier because you can
"hang" the wheel from the central protrusion in the hub, and rotate it
until the holes in the wheel line up with those in the hub, rather than
having to simultaneously locate all four holes in the wheel with the
four protruding bolts on the hub.

Simply don't agree. With most offset wheels, they won't hang on the hub
anyway. So you need two hands to keep them in place - leaving none for
the
bolt. My last BMW with bolts provided a dummy bolt in the toolkit -
basically a bolt with no head. To help with alignment.

Quite agree. It's much easier to get them on studs.

We'll have to agree to differ. For me, it's easier to locate one large
hole on a wheel onto one large central boss, than to try to locate four
holes onto four studs simultaneously. Having located the wheel on the
boss, using both hands to take the wheel's weight, I can then transfer
one hand to the centre to hold the wheel in place (I agree: otherwise
it may fall off again) and use the other hand to rotate the wheel until
the holes line up and I can insert a bolt to hold the wheel from
falling off the boss.

There must have been a reason why most manufacturers all changed from
wheel nuts to wheel bolts at about the same time, and I presumed it was
done to make it (as I find it) easier to replace the wheel. Or is there
another advantage with using bolts? I wonder if it's because the head of
a bolt can be made conical (to mate with a conical depression in the
wheel) which helps to locate the wheel more accurately on the hub: as
each bolt is tightened, it centres the wheel about its bolt hole. Nuts
with a conical profile are harder to make (they also have to be used the
correct way round) so there is a tendency for the wheel to rest with
each hole asymmetric about its stud, and tightening the nuts does not
then correct that.

I have two cars - one with studs, one with bolts. Both alloy wheels. The
last few everyday cars had bolts. Both cars have large heavy wheels.
Neither is easy to change a wheel on. But on balance the studs better.

Of course this may vary with the design of wheel fitted to your vehicle.

If you look at commercial vehicles (trucks, etc) where you can assumed the
fixing are higher loaded than cars, they are all studs and nuts.

The location of the wheel is done by the collar on the hub, not the
fixings. But older steel wheels often had tapers on the nuts.

--
*I used to be a banker, but then I lost interest.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/12/2020 11:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Rust? So one wonders if the type of alloy has changed or maybe any plating
on the nuts has worn off.


Brian, the wheel is located by a collar on the hub. The studs or bolts
merely holding it on. It's between the hub and wheel where the corrosion
occurs, jamming it on.

But the OP said that when it comes off, it comes off suddenly. When a
wheel is stuck on the spigot by rust in the radial interface you have to
keep wiggling it to displace the rust as you move it a little distance
axially each time.

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 11:04:47 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Rust? So one wonders if the type of alloy has changed or maybe any plating
on the nuts has worn off.


Brian, the wheel is located by a collar on the hub. The studs or bolts
merely holding it on. It's between the hub and wheel where the corrosion
occurs, jamming it on.

Isn't that only because it's 'hub centric'?

Most of my trailers are 'stud centric', including the one (I think)
that uses Morris Minor hubs and wheels and so no real interference fit
between the rim and hub.

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
newshound wrote:
On 03/12/2020 11:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Rust? So one wonders if the type of alloy has changed or maybe any plating
on the nuts has worn off.


Brian, the wheel is located by a collar on the hub. The studs or bolts
merely holding it on. It's between the hub and wheel where the corrosion
occurs, jamming it on.

But the OP said that when it comes off, it comes off suddenly. When a
wheel is stuck on the spigot by rust in the radial interface you have to
keep wiggling it to displace the rust as you move it a little distance
axially each time.

The collar is actually very narrow - or is on my cars. Once the corrosion
is broken, it come off quite easily. Not like sliding something along a
shaft.

--
*I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway through.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 11:04:47 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Rust? So one wonders if the type of alloy has changed or maybe any plating
on the nuts has worn off.


Brian, the wheel is located by a collar on the hub. The studs or bolts
merely holding it on. It's between the hub and wheel where the corrosion
occurs, jamming it on.

Isn't that only because it's 'hub centric'?

Most of my trailers are 'stud centric', including the one (I think)
that uses Morris Minor hubs and wheels and so no real interference fit
between the rim and hub.

Think that idea went out a long time ago except perhaps for very slow
vehicles. Or maybe just with alloy wheels. It is easier to machine a
concentric hole in the wheel to locate it accurately than rely on the
studs.

What do current steel wheels use?

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Most of my trailers are 'stud centric', including the one (I think)
that uses Morris Minor hubs and wheels and so no real interference fit
between the rim and hub.

Think that idea went out a long time ago except perhaps for very slow
vehicles. Or maybe just with alloy wheels. It is easier to machine a
concentric hole in the wheel to locate it accurately than rely on the
studs.

What do current steel wheels use?

As far as I remember, all the cars (*) I've owned have had bolts rather than
studs/nuts, and have hung the wheel from a central boss about which it can
easily be rotated until the holes in the wheel line up with the holes in the
hub.

(*) Renault 5, Mark 1 and Mark 2; VW Golf Mark 2 and Mark 3, Peugeot 306 and
308

On 03/12/2020 13:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
On 03/12/2020 11:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Rust? So one wonders if the type of alloy has changed or maybe any plating
on the nuts has worn off.


Brian, the wheel is located by a collar on the hub. The studs or bolts
merely holding it on. It's between the hub and wheel where the corrosion
occurs, jamming it on.

But the OP said that when it comes off, it comes off suddenly. When a
wheel is stuck on the spigot by rust in the radial interface you have to
keep wiggling it to displace the rust as you move it a little distance
axially each time.

The collar is actually very narrow - or is on my cars. Once the corrosion
is broken, it come off quite easily. Not like sliding something along a
shaft.

Oh. Last one I had problems with (steel wheels) the spigot was two or
three times the thickness of the steel pressing so it took some wiggling.

On 03/12/2020 14:04, NY wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Most of my trailers are 'stud centric', including the one (I think)
that uses Morris Minor hubs and wheels and so no real interference fit
between the rim and hub.

Think that idea went out a long time ago except perhaps for very slow
vehicles. Or maybe just with alloy wheels. It is easier to machine a
concentric hole in the wheel to locate it accurately than rely on the
studs.

What do current steel wheels use?

As far as I remember, all the cars (*) I've owned have had bolts rather
than studs/nuts, and have hung the wheel from a central boss about which
it can easily be rotated until the holes in the wheel line up with the
holes in the hub.

(*) Renault 5, Mark 1 and Mark 2; VW Golf Mark 2 and Mark 3, Peugeot 306
and 308

I think they have all had bolts for a fair while.

In article ,
NY wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Most of my trailers are 'stud centric', including the one (I think)
that uses Morris Minor hubs and wheels and so no real interference fit
between the rim and hub.

Think that idea went out a long time ago except perhaps for very slow
vehicles. Or maybe just with alloy wheels. It is easier to machine a
concentric hole in the wheel to locate it accurately than rely on the
studs.

What do current steel wheels use?

As far as I remember, all the cars (*) I've owned have had bolts rather
than studs/nuts, and have hung the wheel from a central boss about
which it can easily be rotated until the holes in the wheel line up
with the holes in the hub.

(*) Renault 5, Mark 1 and Mark 2; VW Golf Mark 2 and Mark 3, Peugeot 306
and 308

It does vary, thinking of my older vehicles. I had a Bedford van (Vauxhall
Viva) where the steel wheels were located on a shoulder - the worst
vehicle I've ever had for wheels sticking on. But had studs.

It may also be tapered seats for nuts etc on alloy wheels are too weak -
prone to cracking. Unlike steel, where they can be pressed.

--
*According to my calculations, the problem doesn't exist.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 02/12/2020 10:36, newshound wrote:
The *actual* centering is done by the fact that the nuts / studs have a
conical interface)

Not always.

https://www.machinedesign.com/fastening-joining/article/21832042/whats-the-difference-between-lugcentric-and-hubcentric-wheels
AKA https://tinyurl.com/y5rauovp

Andy