Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on (for
CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running additional
wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be put in
series with the timer-control.

I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on (for
CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running additional
wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be put in
series with the timer-control.

I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

Have you considered a wireless programmer/thermostat in place of your
control? That gives you the option of a portable control so e.g. if you
wake up early you can turn the heating on early or turn the heating up.
Of course there are options to do the same and more with a smart phone
but a wireless programmer/thermostat starts at c. £50.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on (for
CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running additional
wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be put in
series with the timer-control.

AIUI traditional boiler wiring has the timer and thermostat operate (relay)
contacts in series to interrupt the mains to the boiler. So an additional
thermostat in series would turn the heating off when it has deemed it up to
temperature. It wouldn't allow a call for heat if an existing thermostat
or controller is open.

Theo

On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 11:49:17 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on (for
CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.

So presumably the boiler short cycles when the timer says on but the
rad valves have all shut, pushing up your energy bill...

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running additional
wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be put in
series with the timer-control.

That should work boiler will only fire when the timer is on and the
'stat says cold. However I'd fit a programable thermostat rather than
the simple on/off kind.

It'd wire in just like a normal stat but the boilers heating time
switch would be set to constant giving the programmable stat control
of the temperature for each time period. Programable stats often
preempt the first target temperature of the day. Turning the boiler
on just early enough for the target temp to be met at the set time.

I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

It would be more usual to put the room stat in say the hall and set a
little low (as a hall is generally cool) so it knocks off the heating
when the rest of the house is up to temperature. Which ever room the
room stat is in it should have a radiator with its thermostatic valve
fully open or disabled. Otherwise the two stats may "fight".

--
Cheers
Dave.

Roland Perry wrote:

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running additional
wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be put in
series with the timer-control.

I'd use a programmable thermostat in the living room then either remove
the existing timer, or set it "on" 24x7.

the new stat can then have different temperatures at different times of
day, or days of week. Use a wifi prog-stat if you want to control it
from a browser or phone.

In message , at
12:07:16 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Robin remarked:
On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on
(for CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.
I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additional wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply
be put in series with the timer-control.
I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

Have you considered a wireless programmer/thermostat in place of your
control? That gives you the option of a portable control so e.g. if
you wake up early you can turn the heating on early or turn the heating
up. Of course there are options to do the same and more with a smart
phone but a wireless programmer/thermostat starts at c. £50.

I'm trying to keep it simple.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 12:16:55 on Thu,
8 Oct 2020, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on (for
CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running additional
wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be put in
series with the timer-control.

AIUI traditional boiler wiring has the timer and thermostat operate (relay)
contacts in series to interrupt the mains to the boiler. So an additional
thermostat in series would turn the heating off when it has deemed it up to
temperature. It wouldn't allow a call for heat if an existing thermostat
or controller is open.

I don't have an existing thermostat.
--
Roland Perry

In message l.net, at
12:49:27 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 11:49:17 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on (for
CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.

So presumably the boiler short cycles when the timer says on but the
rad valves have all shut, pushing up your energy bill...

Yes, that's one of the two things I'm trying to prevent.

The other is that if I'm comfortable in my living room (which also has a
wood-burner) there's no need to keep any of the rest of the house heated
by the boiler. Because I'm not in any of the rest of the house

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running additional
wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be put in
series with the timer-control.

That should work boiler will only fire when the timer is on and the
'stat says cold. However I'd fit a programable thermostat rather than
the simple on/off kind.

Do you mean different temps at different times of day?

It'd wire in just like a normal stat but the boilers heating time
switch would be set to constant giving the programmable stat control
of the temperature for each time period. Programable stats often
preempt the first target temperature of the day. Turning the boiler
on just early enough for the target temp to be met at the set time.

Ideally, I'd have zoned stuff, so for example the bathroom was heated at
6am, but the rest of the house not. However that's more ambitious than
my current project.

I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

It would be more usual to put the room stat in say the hall and set a
little low (as a hall is generally cool) so it knocks off the heating
when the rest of the house is up to temperature.

I don't mind having a cold hall.

Which ever room the room stat is in it should have a radiator with its
thermostatic valve fully open or disabled. Otherwise the two stats may
"fight".

Yes, I think I'd open up the living room rad.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 13:11:43 on Thu, 8 Oct
2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additional wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply
be put in series with the timer-control.

I'd use a programmable thermostat in the living room then either remove
the existing timer, or set it "on" 24x7.

the new stat can then have different temperatures at different times of
day, or days of week. Use a wifi prog-stat if you want to control it
from a browser or phone.

Sounds a bit complicated.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on (for
CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.

I have never been particularly impressed with them. They cease up during
the summer and require persuasion to work properly again every winter.

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running additional
wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be put in
series with the timer-control.

I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

Increasingly you can get wireless room thermostats that you can carry
round from room to room and has smart start that calibrates itself so
that if you specify a temperature at a given time it puts the heating on
in advance to hit that target set point based on ambient temperature.

Some will even let you control your heating over the web but beware of
those with a tie in to some server or other that may vanish if the
supplier goes bust or gets taken over.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In message , at 15:32:35 on Thu, 8 Oct
2020, Martin Brown remarked:
On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on
(for CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.

I have never been particularly impressed with them. They cease up
during the summer and require persuasion to work properly again every
winter.

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additional wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply
be put in series with the timer-control.
I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

Increasingly you can get wireless room thermostats that you can carry
round from room to room and has smart start that calibrates itself so
that if you specify a temperature at a given time it puts the heating
on in advance to hit that target set point based on ambient temperature.

Some will even let you control your heating over the web but beware of
those with a tie in to some server or other that may vanish if the
supplier goes bust or gets taken over.

All vastly too complicated.

My question was about a simple wiring issue.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on (for
CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running additional
wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be put in
series with the timer-control.

I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

Not quite the same, but I have a switch by the back door going to the
boiler "room thermostat" terminals that are normally shorted for
thermostatic rads. Electrically, it's doing what you propose.

I have this switch so that it is easy to turn the house off and on if it
is going to be empty for a few hours. I guess in the fullness of time I
might make this "remote actuated" but like you, I'm in favour of keeping
it simple.

In message , at
16:47:11 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, newshound
remarked:
On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on
(for CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.
I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additional wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply
be put in series with the timer-control.
I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

Not quite the same, but I have a switch by the back door going to the
boiler "room thermostat" terminals that are normally shorted for
thermostatic rads. Electrically, it's doing what you propose.

I'll need to look a my boiler to see if it has such terminals. But
thanks for the heads-up.

--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 15:09:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

The other is that if I'm comfortable in my living room (which also has a
wood-burner) there's no need to keep any of the rest of the house heated
by the boiler. Because I'm not in any of the rest of the house

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.

However I'd fit a programable thermostat rather than the simple
on/off
kind.

Do you mean different temps at different times of day?

Yes, far better than the single temp kind.

It would be more usual to put the room stat in say the hall and
set a
little low (as a hall is generally cool) so it knocks off the
heating
when the rest of the house is up to temperature.

I don't mind having a cold hall.

That's fine you set the stat to what ever is required to knock the
heating off when say the bedroom is at the temp you want. As you have
a wood burner in the living room the hall, provided it has a
radiator, is probably as good a place as any, or perhaps your
bedroom. This is where a wireless programable stat comes in handy as
you can experiment to find the best place for it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message l.net, at
19:45:29 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 15:09:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

The other is that if I'm comfortable in my living room (which also has a
wood-burner) there's no need to keep any of the rest of the house heated
by the boiler. Because I'm not in any of the rest of the house

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.

But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.
--
Roland Perry

On Thursday, 8 October 2020 at 21:05:25 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
19:45:29 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 15:09:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

The other is that if I'm comfortable in my living room (which also has a
wood-burner) there's no need to keep any of the rest of the house heated
by the boiler. Because I'm not in any of the rest of the house

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.
But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.
--
Roland Perry
Go for a smart system, we have Hive and each radiator has a smart valve except the bathroom. It is possible to heat just one room or as many as you want and we can do it all using Alexa.

Richard

On 08/10/2020 15:03, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:16:55 on Thu,
8 Oct 2020, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on (for
CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running additional
wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be put in
series with the timer-control.

AIUI traditional boiler wiring has the timer and thermostat operate
(relay)
contacts in series to interrupt the mains to the boiler.Â* So an
additional
thermostat in series would turn the heating off when it has deemed it
up to
temperature.Â* It wouldn't allow a call for heat if an existing thermostat
or controller is open.

I don't have an existing thermostat.


Then add one that is wired in series with the programmer.

Just like we use to do before all this smart control happened.

ie the ****e that costs a fortune to buy and never works.



--
Adam

On 08/10/2020 15:01, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
12:07:16 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Robin remarked:
On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on
(forÂ* CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.
Â*I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additionalÂ* wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply
be put inÂ* series with the timer-control.
Â*I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence
of any room thermostat.

Have you considered a wireless programmer/thermostat in place of your
control?Â* That gives you the option of a portable control so e.g. if
you wake up early you can turn the heating on early or turn the
heating up. Of course there are options to do the same and more with a
smart phone but a wireless programmer/thermostat starts at c. £50.

I'm trying to keep it simple.

That is simple. You replace your existing programmer with a new one that
talks to a thermostat.

Andy

On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 20:57:01 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.

But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.

*Any* heat, even if it's blowing a gale and -10 C outside...

Remember with your current short cycling, if a room cools bit that
radiators thermostatic valve opens a bit and warms the room. With the
room stat satisfied this won't happen as the boiler is forced off.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 08/10/2020 13:11, Andy Burns wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additional wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply be
put in series with the timer-control.

I'd use a programmable thermostat in the living room then either remove
the existing timer, or set it "on" 24x7.


That's what I do - main controller is set CH on for 24/7 (off during the
summer months). The thermostat replaces the timer for CH on the main
controller.

Programmable thermostat set for frost protection temperatures overnight
and up to 4 different temperature slots during the day. When I was
working different times for weekdays and weekends.

I originally had a fixed thermostat in the hall which, in retrospect,
was in the wrong position and for the past 10 years or so a wireless
model with the sender positioned in my main living room. If the OP used
a wireless model the wiring and positioning of the receiver could be
close to his existing controller.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

I'm trying to keep it simple.

I think a Programmable Termostat is the simplest - get rid of the Timer (or
leave it on 24 hrs.
Set a profile that turns it low in the night and it won't come on anyway.
Enjoy the benefit of holiday mode and a sensible daily demand profile.

On 8 Oct 2020 at 22:48:19 BST, "JohnP" wrote:



I'm trying to keep it simple.

I think a Programmable Termostat is the simplest - get rid of the Timer (or
leave it on 24 hrs.
Set a profile that turns it low in the night and it won't come on anyway.
Enjoy the benefit of holiday mode and a sensible daily demand profile.

If it is an old fashioned controller with a safety earth (usually) and three
further wires to the boiler, common, water demand and heating demand (or only
two if it doesn't control hot water) then putting the room thermostat in
series with the heating demand wire as Roland initially suggested is by far
the cheapest and simplest solution to do what Roland wants. (The fact some of
us wouldn't want to control the heating this way is not his problem.)

If however the controller has one of the fancy bus connections popular
nowadays the thermostat needs connection back to the "room thermostat"
terminals on the boiler. On the old system these were probably used for
Roland's controller, and in any case the boiler demand wire if it can be
identified was available at the controller.

--
Roger Hayter

In message , at
13:16:39 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Tricky Dicky
remarked:
On Thursday, 8 October 2020 at 21:05:25 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
19:45:29 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 15:09:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

The other is that if I'm comfortable in my living room (which also has a
wood-burner) there's no need to keep any of the rest of the house heated
by the boiler. Because I'm not in any of the rest of the house

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.
But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.

Go for a smart system, we have Hive and each radiator has a smart valve
except the bathroom. It is possible to heat just one room or as many as
you want and we can do it all using Alexa.

How are the smart-valves powered. Lots of individual batteries?
--
Roland Perry

In message l.net, at
22:06:37 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 20:57:01 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.

But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.

*Any* heat, even if it's blowing a gale and -10 C outside...

Remember with your current short cycling, if a room cools bit that
radiators thermostatic valve opens a bit and warms the room. With the
room stat satisfied this won't happen as the boiler is forced off.

It's a small enough house that heat percolates around it even when room
rads are off. But that wasn't really my question.

I understand about the short-cycling (but in practice the bathroom rad
and the one in the former sitting room, now my office, are both warm
almost all the time the heating is on), however if the room stat simply
switches off the boiler like a timer would, does the circulating pump
stop, and does in effect turning the boiler on and off several times an
hour have any undesirable other side effects.

I'm not sure I could find a separate connection to make to the boiler to
switch it by a thermostat rather than the timer. The timer just has one
2-core connection to the boiler, plus its mains power.

It's a combi boiler and hot water is provided on demand even if there's
no controller attached to the wall.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I'd use a programmable thermostat in the living room then either
remove the existing timer, or set it "on" 24x7.

Sounds a bit complicated.

If you don't want the wifi integration fair enough, the models without
that are certainly not complicated, e.g.

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info-Slimline.html

Tricky Dicky wrote:

Go for a smart system, we have Hive and each radiator has a smart valve except the bathroom. It is possible to heat just one room or as many as you want and we can do it all using Alexa.

Conceptually I like the idea. Does the system create a "demand
for heat at the boiler" as long as any smart valve needs it?

What kind of cost are we looking at for a full install in an
average property? Not sure if the payback time is reasonable.

I hope your Alexa makes a better job of it than mine does of
recognising music I am trying to ask for. The frustrating aspect
is that there is no alternative interface.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

On 09/10/2020 08:02, Andy Burns wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I'd use a programmable thermostat in the living room then either
remove the existing timer, or set it "on" 24x7.

Sounds a bit complicated.

If you don't want the wifi integration fair enough, the models without
that are certainly not complicated, e.g.

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info-Slimline.html

You forgot to add the link to the receiver required to work with that
Heatmiser transmitter; both would total around £70.

They are *all* complicated compared to what the OP wants, and I am
speaking as one who has used wireless 'stats for around 15 years.

Our first one was a Drayton in about 2005, when we had a new boiler
installed. It worked ok for three years until the receiver failed. It
chose its time to fail carefully - we were just packing up the car to go
off on Christmas Eve! It was freezing outside, and I luckily had kept
the old wired thermostat in the "junk box". I connected it up in
parallel with the Drayton receiver using a flying lead. It worked well
enough to keep the house tolerably warm while we were away.

The second was one to replace the Drayton. Of course, I needed a new
transmitter as well to go with the new receiver (not Drayton. The price
of a new Drayton receiver alone was more than the prices of the
transmitter+receiver of the new one. I can't remember the make, but it
came from TLC). The new one had a faulty transmitter; it showed only all
the LCD segments or none. I took it back and the replacement was fine.
Except that the "Chinglish" manual was next to useless, as the setting
up directions for the 4-position DIL switch for channel selection were
nonsense. It took me some time to work out that their "left-right" meant
"up-down", and what they referred to as switches 1, 2, 3, and 4 were
actually 4, 3, 2, and 1. When I finally got the transmitter and receiver
to talk to each other it worked well for 4 years until we moved.

A couple of years ago we had the boiler here replaced. I wanted a
wireless stat again to replace the wired stat in the hall. We got a
Salus RT510RF (an earlier version of
https://salus-controls.com/uk/product/rt510rf-plus/). We don't need
the timer programming as we are here all the time, but do move it around
to where we are. It works well as a thermostat, but its physical design
is poor. It falls over very easily, and it is too easy to push one of
the buttons when you pick it up and change a setting accidently.

If the OP wants simplicity and reliability, an old-fashioned wired wall
thermostat is the way to go. It will also be the cheapest.

--

Jeff

In message , at 08:02:19 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I'd use a programmable thermostat in the living room then either
remove the existing timer, or set it "on" 24x7.
Sounds a bit complicated.

If you don't want the wifi integration fair enough, the models without
that are certainly not complicated, e.g.

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info-Slimline.html

Could I wire that with one pair of conductors to the boiler? How is it
powered. The site above has very little [actually, none] installation
detail.
--
Roland Perry

How are the smart-valves powered. Lots of individual batteries?
--
Roland Perry

Yes

On 9 Oct 2020 at 06:39:27 BST, "Roland Perry" wrote:

In message l.net, at
22:06:37 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 20:57:01 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.

But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.

*Any* heat, even if it's blowing a gale and -10 C outside...

Remember with your current short cycling, if a room cools bit that
radiators thermostatic valve opens a bit and warms the room. With the
room stat satisfied this won't happen as the boiler is forced off.

It's a small enough house that heat percolates around it even when room
rads are off. But that wasn't really my question.

I understand about the short-cycling (but in practice the bathroom rad
and the one in the former sitting room, now my office, are both warm
almost all the time the heating is on), however if the room stat simply
switches off the boiler like a timer would, does the circulating pump
stop, and does in effect turning the boiler on and off several times an
hour have any undesirable other side effects.

I'm not sure I could find a separate connection to make to the boiler to
switch it by a thermostat rather than the timer. The timer just has one
2-core connection to the boiler, plus its mains power.

It's a combi boiler and hot water is provided on demand even if there's
no controller attached to the wall.

Then just put your thermostat in series with the controller. In principle if
the controller is at mains voltage it would be best to put the thermostat in
series with the live wire, but if they are both unearthed, double insulated it
doesn't really matter. And if they are both extra low voltage it also doesn't
matter which wire.

I suspect all modern boilers have pump overrun (and a permanent mains
connection even when the controller is off) to stop the main heat exchanger
getting too hot when switched off, and with old cast iron ones it doesn't
matter.

I am sure your boiler has a way of switching off on demand water heating,
which would save a few quid over a year by stopping short cycling to keep the
water heat exchanger hot if you don't mind not having hot water immediately
available at some hours, and save bits of the planet; but I have mine
permanently on too!


--
Roger Hayter

In message , at 08:58:59 on Fri, 9 Oct 2020,
Jeff Layman remarked:
I'd use a programmable thermostat in the living room then either
remove the existing timer, or set it "on" 24x7.

Sounds a bit complicated.
If you don't want the wifi integration fair enough, the models
without
that are certainly not complicated, e.g.

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info-Slimline.html

You forgot to add the link to the receiver required to work with that
Heatmiser transmitter; both would total around £70.

Wouldn't it be possible to wire it to the boiler, so no
transmitter/receivers required?

I already have a wire [2-core only] from where the timer (or
timer/thermostat combo) is going to be installed, to the boiler.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:35:40 on Thu, 8 Oct
2020, Roger Hayter remarked:
On 8 Oct 2020 at 22:48:19 BST, "JohnP" wrote:



I'm trying to keep it simple.

I think a Programmable Termostat is the simplest - get rid of the Timer (or
leave it on 24 hrs.
Set a profile that turns it low in the night and it won't come on anyway.
Enjoy the benefit of holiday mode and a sensible daily demand profile.

If it is an old fashioned controller with a safety earth (usually) and three
further wires to the boiler, common, water demand and heating demand (or only
two if it doesn't control hot water)

Yes, it's just two - the hot water is on demand 24x7 (combi).

then putting the room thermostat in
series with the heating demand wire as Roland initially suggested is by far
the cheapest and simplest solution to do what Roland wants. (The fact some of
us wouldn't want to control the heating this way is not his problem.)

If however the controller has one of the fancy bus connections popular
nowadays the thermostat needs connection back to the "room thermostat"
terminals on the boiler. On the old system these were probably used for
Roland's controller, and in any case the boiler demand wire if it can be
identified was available at the controller.

The controller in my last house had a seriously multi-core cable back to
the boiler.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
01:12:20 on Fri, 9 Oct 2020, Tricky Dicky
remarked:

How are the smart-valves powered. Lots of individual batteries?

Yes

I spend half my life changing/charging batteries. Don't need more to add
to the millstone.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 08:15:26 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Roger Hayter remarked:
On 9 Oct 2020 at 06:39:27 BST, "Roland Perry" wrote:

In message l.net, at
22:06:37 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 20:57:01 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.

But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.

*Any* heat, even if it's blowing a gale and -10 C outside...

Remember with your current short cycling, if a room cools bit that
radiators thermostatic valve opens a bit and warms the room. With the
room stat satisfied this won't happen as the boiler is forced off.

It's a small enough house that heat percolates around it even when room
rads are off. But that wasn't really my question.

I understand about the short-cycling (but in practice the bathroom rad
and the one in the former sitting room, now my office, are both warm
almost all the time the heating is on), however if the room stat simply
switches off the boiler like a timer would, does the circulating pump
stop, and does in effect turning the boiler on and off several times an
hour have any undesirable other side effects.

I'm not sure I could find a separate connection to make to the boiler to
switch it by a thermostat rather than the timer. The timer just has one
2-core connection to the boiler, plus its mains power.

It's a combi boiler and hot water is provided on demand even if there's
no controller attached to the wall.

Then just put your thermostat in series with the controller. In principle if
the controller is at mains voltage it would be best to put the thermostat in
series with the live wire, but if they are both unearthed, double insulated it
doesn't really matter. And if they are both extra low voltage it also doesn't
matter which wire.

I suspect all modern boilers have pump overrun (and a permanent mains
connection even when the controller is off) to stop the main heat exchanger
getting too hot when switched off, and with old cast iron ones it doesn't
matter.

The boiler is about 10yrs old.

I am sure your boiler has a way of switching off on demand water heating,
which would save a few quid over a year by stopping short cycling to keep the
water heat exchanger hot if you don't mind not having hot water immediately
available at some hours,

Hot water isn't immediately available, it takes quite a while to start
coming though. (I hate combi boilers, but replacing it is a project for
another year, the new thermostat thing is just for this winter).

and save bits of the planet; but I have mine permanently on too!

--
Roland Perry

On 9 Oct 2020 at 09:15:26 BST, "Roger Hayter" wrote:

On 9 Oct 2020 at 06:39:27 BST, "Roland Perry" wrote:

In message l.net, at
22:06:37 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 20:57:01 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.

But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.

*Any* heat, even if it's blowing a gale and -10 C outside...

Remember with your current short cycling, if a room cools bit that
radiators thermostatic valve opens a bit and warms the room. With the
room stat satisfied this won't happen as the boiler is forced off.

It's a small enough house that heat percolates around it even when room
rads are off. But that wasn't really my question.

I understand about the short-cycling (but in practice the bathroom rad
and the one in the former sitting room, now my office, are both warm
almost all the time the heating is on), however if the room stat simply
switches off the boiler like a timer would, does the circulating pump
stop, and does in effect turning the boiler on and off several times an
hour have any undesirable other side effects.

I'm not sure I could find a separate connection to make to the boiler to
switch it by a thermostat rather than the timer. The timer just has one
2-core connection to the boiler, plus its mains power.

It's a combi boiler and hot water is provided on demand even if there's
no controller attached to the wall.

Then just put your thermostat in series with the controller. In principle if
the controller is at mains voltage it would be best to put the thermostat in
series with the live wire, but if they are both unearthed, double insulated
it
doesn't really matter. And if they are both extra low voltage it also doesn't
matter which wire.

I suspect all modern boilers have pump overrun (and a permanent mains
connection even when the controller is off) to stop the main heat exchanger
getting too hot when switched off, and with old cast iron ones it doesn't
matter.

I am sure your boiler has a way of switching off on demand water heating,
which would save a few quid over a year by stopping short cycling to keep the
water heat exchanger hot if you don't mind not having hot water immediately
available at some hours, and save bits of the planet; but I have mine
permanently on too!

PS. An important point about modern room thermostats. 98% of easily
available ones have a tiny heater to reduce hysteresis and need a mains
neutral and live connection, and *must* be connected the right way round, it
matters which is the mains supply side and which is the switched side. (It
actually doesn't matter which is neutral and which live.) If you are not
sure if your controller is mains or SELV from the boiler you need to find a
so-called two wire room thermostat which does not need a neutral connection or
240v for a heater.

--
Roger Hayter

On Friday, 9 October 2020 at 08:44:04 UTC+1, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Tricky Dicky wrote:

Go for a smart system, we have Hive and each radiator has a smart valve except the bathroom. It is possible to heat just one room or as many as you want and we can do it all using Alexa.
Conceptually I like the idea. Does the system create a "demand
for heat at the boiler" as long as any smart valve needs it?

What kind of cost are we looking at for a full install in an
average property? Not sure if the payback time is reasonable.

I hope your Alexa makes a better job of it than mine does of
recognising music I am trying to ask for. The frustrating aspect
is that there is no alternative interface.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Off the top of my head I cannot recall all the costs but in our case it was all about comfort and convenience. We originally bought the Hive programmable thermostat and hub as we had one reception room that tended to lose heat quicker than the other and once the heating was in maintenance mode it would become a lot cooler than the room that had the thermostat in. We were able to move the thermostat into the cooler room as required but the drawback was the the room which normally had the thermostat became too warm. Although we could use a TRV in that room it caused issues when the thermostat was back in its normal place.

When the valves became available we bought a batch of five which covered all the radiators barring the bathroom which is the official system bypass and so is on whenever any device is calling for heat. As I said before we can now control the temperature room by room and can literally just heat the room we require without heating other rooms.

With the Hive system you do need the complete package of the Thermostat and valves as the valves communicate with the thermostat, I am not sure if you require the Hub as the system continues to work even if the internet connection is down, I think it is only really required if you want remote control over the internet. When we got the original Thermostat the hub came as part of the package then. The valves we bought as a batch which meant a discount on the individual valve price meaning one valve was essentially free.

There are other systems out there and it is worth shopping around with sales and discounts regularly available. All I can say is we are very happy with our system and the control we have so it was money well spent.

Richard

On 9 Oct 2020 at 09:10:55 BST, "Roland Perry" wrote:

In message , at 08:02:19 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I'd use a programmable thermostat in the living room then either
remove the existing timer, or set it "on" 24x7.
Sounds a bit complicated.

If you don't want the wifi integration fair enough, the models without
that are certainly not complicated, e.g.

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info-Slimline.html

Could I wire that with one pair of conductors to the boiler? How is it
powered. The site above has very little [actually, none] installation
detail.

As mentioned elsewhere, you need to know if your controller is working at
mains voltage or some extra low control voltage generated by the boiler. A
simple two wire room thermostat (in series with one of your two cores - the
other wire can be left intact or rejoined if the two core needs extending) is
the only thing that is guaranteed to work without further investigation.

--
Roger Hayter

On 09/10/2020 09:15, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:58:59 on Fri, 9 Oct 2020,
Jeff Layman remarked:
I'd use a programmable thermostat in the living room then either
remove the existing timer, or set it "on" 24x7.

Sounds a bit complicated.
If you don't want the wifi integration fair enough, the models
without
that are certainly not complicated, e.g.

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info-Slimline.html

You forgot to add the link to the receiver required to work with that
Heatmiser transmitter; both would total around £70.

Wouldn't it be possible to wire it to the boiler, so no
transmitter/receivers required?

Yes, I mistakenly though that the device Andy referred to used a radio
signal. But it is a "stand-alone" wired unit.

I already have a wire [2-core only] from where the timer (or
timer/thermostat combo) is going to be installed, to the boiler.

The connections required are shown he
https://www.heatmiser.com/en/download/211/english/11387/slimlinev3.pdf
on pages 38 - 40. I think it needs a separate 230V supply if you have
only a 2-wire connection to the boiler at present, but I will let others
who have experience of wiring up that type of device reply definitively.

--

Jeff

On 08/10/2020 20:57, Roland Perry wrote:
In message l.net, at
19:45:29 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 15:09:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

The other is that if I'm comfortable in my living room (which also has a
wood-burner) there's no need to keep any of the rest of the house heated
by the boiler. Because I'm not in any of the rest of the house

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.

But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.

Then use a plain radio stat in series with the timer output

--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
€“ H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
12:07:16 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Robin remarked:
On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on
(for CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.
I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additional wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply
be put in series with the timer-control.
I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

Have you considered a wireless programmer/thermostat in place of your
control? That gives you the option of a portable control so e.g. if
you wake up early you can turn the heating on early or turn the heating
up. Of course there are options to do the same and more with a smart
phone but a wireless programmer/thermostat starts at c. £50.

I'm trying to keep it simple.

That's what your system currently is, but you're not happy with it?

--
*He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.