In message , at 08:39:55 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Roger Hayter remarked:

PS. An important point about modern room thermostats. 98% of easily
available ones have a tiny heater to reduce hysteresis and need a mains
neutral and live connection, and *must* be connected the right way round, it
matters which is the mains supply side and which is the switched side. (It
actually doesn't matter which is neutral and which live.) If you are not
sure if your controller is mains or SELV from the boiler you need to find a
so-called two wire room thermostat which does not need a neutral connection or
240v for a heater.

Thanks for that. So I've ordered a 2-wire one from Screwfix.

Sufficiently unusual that none of the local branches have it in stock;
will arrive in a couple of days.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:03:02 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
12:07:16 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Robin remarked:
On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on
(for CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.
I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additional wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply
be put in series with the timer-control.
I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

Have you considered a wireless programmer/thermostat in place of your
control? That gives you the option of a portable control so e.g. if
you wake up early you can turn the heating on early or turn the heating
up. Of course there are options to do the same and more with a smart
phone but a wireless programmer/thermostat starts at c. £50.

I'm trying to keep it simple.

That's what your system currently is, but you're not happy with it?

Doesn't currently have a room thermostat, but I've spent whole £12 on
one earlier today.
--
Roland Perry

On 9 Oct 2020 08:39:55 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

PS. An important point about modern room thermostats. 98% of easily
available ones have a tiny heater to reduce hysteresis and need a mains
neutral and live connection,

Bi-metal sensor based room thermostats have a heater and require a
neutral. Many modern ones use a thermistor as the temperature sensor
and don't have a heater but do need a power supply... However that
might be a battery even for a wired stat as the to be a "plugin
replacement" for a bi-metal stat it has to cope with not having a
permenant live.

I'm not 100% sure what wiring the OP has, there is mention of two
wire and two wire plus L and N.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 9 Oct 2020 08:15:26 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

I am sure your boiler has a way of switching off on demand water
heating, which would save a few quid over a year by stopping short
cycling to keep the water heat exchanger hot if you don't mind not
having hot water immediately available at some hours,

It's a combi, *hours* to heat it's internal heat exchanger or even
built in small buffer store? A decent gas boiler ought to be able to
reheat a whole hot water cylinder in an less than an hour.

When I had a 2 bed flat the HW cylinder would reheat in 20 mins. When
the time switch died, I didn't bother replacing it, just switched the
water on when I needed it. Heating was on a room thermostat and
manual on/off switch. BIG drop in gas bill...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 08/10/2020 16:58, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
16:47:11 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, newshound
remarked:
On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on
(forÂ* CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.
Â*I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additionalÂ* wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply
be put inÂ* series with the timer-control.
Â*I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence
of any room thermostat.

Not quite the same, but I have a switch by the back door going to the
boiler "room thermostat" terminals that are normally shorted for
thermostatic rads. Electrically, it's doing what you propose.

I'll need to look a my boiler to see if it has such terminals. But
thanks for the heads-up.
They are in the control box rather than the boiler itself for my
Vaillant. But essentially that serves as a junction box for all the wiring.

On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 06:39:27 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat
is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.

But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.

*Any* heat, even if it's blowing a gale and -10 C outside...

Remember with your current short cycling, if a room cools bit that
radiators thermostatic valve opens a bit and warms the room. With
the
room stat satisfied this won't happen as the boiler is forced off.

It's a small enough house that heat percolates around it even when room
rads are off.

Fairy Nuff.

... however if the room stat simply switches off the boiler like a timer
would, does the circulating pump stop, ...

The pump more or less goes off with the bolier. It'll probably have
built in overun to remove residual heat from the heat exchanger to
stop it overheating.

... and does in effect turning the boiler on and off several times an
hour have any undesirable other side effects.

er, the short cycling is almost ceratinly fireing up and shutting
down the boiler far more often than it will once a room stat has
control.

I'm not sure I could find a separate connection to make to the boiler to
switch it by a thermostat rather than the timer. The timer just has one
2-core connection to the boiler, plus its mains power.

Not experienced with modern boilers but the KISS principle applies,
plumbers are not electricians... So I'd expect at a minimum a
terminal block with positions for permenant L,N,E (from a SFCU) and
L,N,E,Sw L for connection to external time switch/thermostas etc. If
there is a built in time switch I'd expect a "SW L out" (from time
switch) and "SW L in" from external controls. By default the L and SW
L would be jumpered togther, like wise the "Sw L out" and "Sw L in".

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 9 Oct 2020 at 11:19:40 BST, "Roland Perry" wrote:

In message , at 08:39:55 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Roger Hayter remarked:

PS. An important point about modern room thermostats. 98% of easily
available ones have a tiny heater to reduce hysteresis and need a mains
neutral and live connection, and *must* be connected the right way round, it
matters which is the mains supply side and which is the switched side. (It
actually doesn't matter which is neutral and which live.) If you are not
sure if your controller is mains or SELV from the boiler you need to find a
so-called two wire room thermostat which does not need a neutral connection
or
240v for a heater.

Thanks for that. So I've ordered a 2-wire one from Screwfix.

Sufficiently unusual that none of the local branches have it in stock;
will arrive in a couple of days.

Depending on the precise design of the thermostat, if your wiring is run on
the surface of the wall you may need a surface fitting back box to run the
wires into, especially if you have to cut both wires and need somewhere to put
a chocblock or wago connector for one of them. 16mm will do.

--
Roger Hayter

In message l.net, at
12:53:32 on Fri, 9 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On 9 Oct 2020 08:15:26 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

I am sure your boiler has a way of switching off on demand water
heating, which would save a few quid over a year by stopping short
cycling to keep the water heat exchanger hot if you don't mind not
having hot water immediately available at some hours,

It's a combi, *hours* to heat it's internal heat exchanger or even
built in small buffer store? A decent gas boiler ought to be able to
reheat a whole hot water cylinder in an less than an hour.

Mine doesn't have buffer store nor a hot water cylinder.

When I had a 2 bed flat the HW cylinder would reheat in 20 mins. When
the time switch died, I didn't bother replacing it, just switched the
water on when I needed it. Heating was on a room thermostat and
manual on/off switch. BIG drop in gas bill...


--
Roland Perry

In message l.net, at
13:12:54 on Fri, 9 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 06:39:27 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Wouldn't put the stat in a room with a heat source it's not
controlling. Wood burner makes living room nice and warm, stat
is
satisfied and rest of house doesn't get any heat.

But I'm not in any of the rest of the house, Dear Liza.

*Any* heat, even if it's blowing a gale and -10 C outside...

Remember with your current short cycling, if a room cools bit that
radiators thermostatic valve opens a bit and warms the room. With
the
room stat satisfied this won't happen as the boiler is forced off.

It's a small enough house that heat percolates around it even when room
rads are off.

Fairy Nuff.

... however if the room stat simply switches off the boiler like a timer
would, does the circulating pump stop, ...

The pump more or less goes off with the bolier. It'll probably have
built in overun to remove residual heat from the heat exchanger to
stop it overheating.

... and does in effect turning the boiler on and off several times an
hour have any undesirable other side effects.

er, the short cycling is almost ceratinly fireing up and shutting
down the boiler far more often than it will once a room stat has
control.

I'm not sure I could find a separate connection to make to the boiler to
switch it by a thermostat rather than the timer. The timer just has one
2-core connection to the boiler, plus its mains power.

Not experienced with modern boilers but the KISS principle applies,
plumbers are not electricians... So I'd expect at a minimum a
terminal block with positions for permenant L,N,E (from a SFCU) and
L,N,E,Sw L for connection to external time switch/thermostas etc. If
there is a built in time switch I'd expect a "SW L out" (from time
switch) and "SW L in" from external controls. By default the L and SW
L would be jumpered togther, like wise the "Sw L out" and "Sw L in".

I'll post a diagram of the status quo shortly.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 12:28:01 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Roger Hayter remarked:
On 9 Oct 2020 at 11:19:40 BST, "Roland Perry" wrote:

In message , at 08:39:55 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Roger Hayter remarked:

PS. An important point about modern room thermostats. 98% of easily
available ones have a tiny heater to reduce hysteresis and need a mains
neutral and live connection, and *must* be connected the right way round, it
matters which is the mains supply side and which is the switched side. (It
actually doesn't matter which is neutral and which live.) If you are not
sure if your controller is mains or SELV from the boiler you need to find a
so-called two wire room thermostat which does not need a neutral connection
or
240v for a heater.

Thanks for that. So I've ordered a 2-wire one from Screwfix.

Sufficiently unusual that none of the local branches have it in stock;
will arrive in a couple of days.

Depending on the precise design of the thermostat, if your wiring is run on
the surface of the wall you may need a surface fitting back box to run the
wires into, especially if you have to cut both wires and need somewhere to put
a chocblock or wago connector for one of them. 16mm will do.

The wiring in the thermostat location is through the wall, poking out at
right angles. If I need to also chisel a box into the wall, that's not a
problem.
--
Roland Perry

On 09/10/2020 12:53, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 9 Oct 2020 08:15:26 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

I am sure your boiler has a way of switching off on demand water
heating, which would save a few quid over a year by stopping short
cycling to keep the water heat exchanger hot if you don't mind not
having hot water immediately available at some hours,

It's a combi, *hours* to heat it's internal heat exchanger or even
built in small buffer store? A decent gas boiler ought to be able to
reheat a whole hot water cylinder in an less than an hour.

When I had a 2 bed flat the HW cylinder would reheat in 20 mins. When
the time switch died, I didn't bother replacing it, just switched the
water on when I needed it. Heating was on a room thermostat and
manual on/off switch. BIG drop in gas bill...

I calculate that at best I spend less than £100 a year heating water for
washing

Compared with £2000 for central heating.

You must have lived in a rabbit hutch to have had your CH bills that
low, that reducing the minimal losses through a hot water tank saved you
anything at all...

I can hear the boiler fire up after I have had a shower. For about 10
minutes. To get the house up to temperature on a cold morning make that
thee hours, and on a really cold morning its more like all morning -
then I switch to 'permanently on', for the CH.

People Who Do Sums can easily prove to themselves how much the heat loss
is from a small lagged tank even at 60°C, which if it is inside the
house is only keeping the house warm, compared with the heat loss from
four walls a roof and a floor in a detached house...
....During my divorce I stayed with a friend who should have known
better, who insisted the kettle never be filled to more than the amount
required for the hot drink.

I spent some time on the calculator and handed him over 50p 'that should
make it up for the next three months'

Even People Who *Can* Do Sums are often too lazy or stupid to *do* them.



--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:03:02 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
12:07:16 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Robin remarked:
On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on
(for CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.
I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additional wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply
be put in series with the timer-control.
I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

Have you considered a wireless programmer/thermostat in place of your
control? That gives you the option of a portable control so e.g. if
you wake up early you can turn the heating on early or turn the heating
up. Of course there are options to do the same and more with a smart
phone but a wireless programmer/thermostat starts at c. £50.

I'm trying to keep it simple.

That's what your system currently is, but you're not happy with it?

Doesn't currently have a room thermostat, but I've spent whole £12 on
one earlier today.

Having had a simple thermostat on a system installed some 40 odd years
ago, I changed it to a programmable one. Very useful as most want a higher
temperature in the sitting room when relaxing at the end of the day. Good
way to update a basic system, and no more effort than fitting an ordinary
stat.

--
*Upon the advice of my attorney, my shirt bears no message at this time

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 9 Oct 2020 08:15:26 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

I am sure your boiler has a way of switching off on demand water
heating, which would save a few quid over a year by stopping short
cycling to keep the water heat exchanger hot if you don't mind not
having hot water immediately available at some hours,

It's a combi, *hours* to heat it's internal heat exchanger or even
built in small buffer store? A decent gas boiler ought to be able to
reheat a whole hot water cylinder in an less than an hour.

When I had a 2 bed flat the HW cylinder would reheat in 20 mins. When
the time switch died, I didn't bother replacing it, just switched the
water on when I needed it. Heating was on a room thermostat and
manual on/off switch. BIG drop in gas bill...

My boiler will actually heat my fast recovery cylinder quick enough to
give a warm shower continuously, I discovered.

--
*I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 13:59:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

When I had a 2 bed flat the HW cylinder would reheat in 20 mins.
When
the time switch died, I didn't bother replacing it, just switched
the
water on when I needed it. Heating was on a room thermostat and
manual on/off switch. BIG drop in gas bill...

You must have lived in a rabbit hutch to have had your CH bills that
low, that reducing the minimal losses through a hot water tank saved you
anything at all...

Top floor 2 bed flat, reasonably (for 30+ years ago) well insulated.
Cold to comfortable less than an hour.

HW went from fireing up twice a day (morning and evening) to reheat
the cylinder to once every 2+ days.

All I know is that I made a significant reduction in the DD to the
gas company...

To get the house up to temperature on a cold morning make that
thee hours,

That's worse than this place, that's high, exposed, draughty and not
overly well insulated. If it's not windy it takes about 90 mins to
reach the target temp on a cold morning. If it's windy and cold the
boiler can barely keep up...

... then I switch to 'permanently on', for the CH.

Ours is never off, always on the thermostat. A high thermal mass
means you really don't want the place to cool down otherwise it takes
days, literally, to become comfortable again.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Jeff Layman wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info-Slimline.html

You forgot to add the link to the receiver required to work with that
Heatmiser transmitter

I didn't forget, the O/P said he was perfectly happy to install a cable.

Roland Perry wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info-Slimline.html

Could I wire that with one pair of conductors to the boiler?

No jut two wires, it'd need a 3+E cable (perm live to stat, neutral to
stat, switched live to boiler, earth)

How is it powered.

mains

The site above has very little [actually, none] installation
detail.

The heatmiser site itself has install manuals, the only reason I linked
to the website above is that it's £20 cheaper from there.

On 9 Oct 2020 at 13:48:52 BST, "Roland Perry" wrote:

In message , at 12:28:01 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Roger Hayter remarked:
On 9 Oct 2020 at 11:19:40 BST, "Roland Perry" wrote:

In message , at 08:39:55 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Roger Hayter remarked:

PS. An important point about modern room thermostats. 98% of easily
available ones have a tiny heater to reduce hysteresis and need a mains
neutral and live connection, and *must* be connected the right way round, it
matters which is the mains supply side and which is the switched side. (It
actually doesn't matter which is neutral and which live.) If you are not
sure if your controller is mains or SELV from the boiler you need to find a
so-called two wire room thermostat which does not need a neutral connection
or
240v for a heater.

Thanks for that. So I've ordered a 2-wire one from Screwfix.

Sufficiently unusual that none of the local branches have it in stock;
will arrive in a couple of days.

Depending on the precise design of the thermostat, if your wiring is run on
the surface of the wall you may need a surface fitting back box to run the
wires into, especially if you have to cut both wires and need somewhere to
put
a chocblock or wago connector for one of them. 16mm will do.

The wiring in the thermostat location is through the wall, poking out at
right angles. If I need to also chisel a box into the wall, that's not a
problem.

Sounds a good idea.



--
Roger Hayter

On 9 Oct 2020 at 13:59:22 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:

On 09/10/2020 12:53, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 9 Oct 2020 08:15:26 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

I am sure your boiler has a way of switching off on demand water
heating, which would save a few quid over a year by stopping short
cycling to keep the water heat exchanger hot if you don't mind not
having hot water immediately available at some hours,

It's a combi, *hours* to heat it's internal heat exchanger or even
built in small buffer store? A decent gas boiler ought to be able to
reheat a whole hot water cylinder in an less than an hour.

When I had a 2 bed flat the HW cylinder would reheat in 20 mins. When
the time switch died, I didn't bother replacing it, just switched the
water on when I needed it. Heating was on a room thermostat and
manual on/off switch. BIG drop in gas bill...

I calculate that at best I spend less than £100 a year heating water for
washing

Compared with £2000 for central heating.

You must have lived in a rabbit hutch to have had your CH bills that
low, that reducing the minimal losses through a hot water tank saved you
anything at all...

I can hear the boiler fire up after I have had a shower. For about 10
minutes. To get the house up to temperature on a cold morning make that
thee hours, and on a really cold morning its more like all morning -
then I switch to 'permanently on', for the CH.

People Who Do Sums can easily prove to themselves how much the heat loss
is from a small lagged tank even at 60°C, which if it is inside the
house is only keeping the house warm, compared with the heat loss from
four walls a roof and a floor in a detached house...
...During my divorce I stayed with a friend who should have known
better, who insisted the kettle never be filled to more than the amount
required for the hot drink.

I spent some time on the calculator and handed him over 50p 'that should
make it up for the next three months'

But you never get back the extra minutes waiting for it to boil!


Even People Who *Can* Do Sums are often too lazy or stupid to *do* them.


--
Roger Hayter

In message l.net, at
12:43:37 on Fri, 9 Oct 2020, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
On 9 Oct 2020 08:39:55 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

PS. An important point about modern room thermostats. 98% of easily
available ones have a tiny heater to reduce hysteresis and need a mains
neutral and live connection,

Bi-metal sensor based room thermostats have a heater and require a
neutral. Many modern ones use a thermistor as the temperature sensor
and don't have a heater but do need a power supply... However that
might be a battery even for a wired stat as the to be a "plugin
replacement" for a bi-metal stat it has to cope with not having a
permenant live.

I'm not 100% sure what wiring the OP has, there is mention of two
wire and two wire plus L and N.

controller /------make-------\
| | | |

N L 1 2 3 4

| | | |

from to to
mains boiler boiler

But the more I look at it, the more I suspect that either 1 or 4 is also
tied to one or other of the N/L mains. Some testing required, because
the documentation is ****.
--
Roland Perry

On 09/10/2020 17:25, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 13:59:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

When I had a 2 bed flat the HW cylinder would reheat in 20 mins.
When
the time switch died, I didn't bother replacing it, just switched
the
water on when I needed it. Heating was on a room thermostat and
manual on/off switch. BIG drop in gas bill...

You must have lived in a rabbit hutch to have had your CH bills that
low, that reducing the minimal losses through a hot water tank saved you
anything at all...

Top floor 2 bed flat, reasonably (for 30+ years ago) well insulated.
Cold to comfortable less than an hour.

HW went from fireing up twice a day (morning and evening) to reheat
the cylinder to once every 2+ days.

All I know is that I made a significant reduction in the DD to the
gas company...

To get the house up to temperature on a cold morning make that
thee hours,

That's worse than this place, that's high, exposed, draughty and not
overly well insulated. If it's not windy it takes about 90 mins to
reach the target temp on a cold morning. If it's windy and cold the
boiler can barely keep up...

UFH. very very long time constant

... then I switch to 'permanently on', for the CH.

Ours is never off, always on the thermostat. A high thermal mass
means you really don't want the place to cool down otherwise it takes
days, literally, to become comfortable again.

exactly
Not days, but about 12 hours from icy to comfortable if the heat goes
off in serious winter


--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

On 09/10/2020 18:35, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 9 Oct 2020 at 13:59:22 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:

On 09/10/2020 12:53, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 9 Oct 2020 08:15:26 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

I am sure your boiler has a way of switching off on demand water
heating, which would save a few quid over a year by stopping short
cycling to keep the water heat exchanger hot if you don't mind not
having hot water immediately available at some hours,

It's a combi, *hours* to heat it's internal heat exchanger or even
built in small buffer store? A decent gas boiler ought to be able to
reheat a whole hot water cylinder in an less than an hour.

When I had a 2 bed flat the HW cylinder would reheat in 20 mins. When
the time switch died, I didn't bother replacing it, just switched the
water on when I needed it. Heating was on a room thermostat and
manual on/off switch. BIG drop in gas bill...

I calculate that at best I spend less than £100 a year heating water for
washing

Compared with £2000 for central heating.

You must have lived in a rabbit hutch to have had your CH bills that
low, that reducing the minimal losses through a hot water tank saved you
anything at all...

I can hear the boiler fire up after I have had a shower. For about 10
minutes. To get the house up to temperature on a cold morning make that
thee hours, and on a really cold morning its more like all morning -
then I switch to 'permanently on', for the CH.

People Who Do Sums can easily prove to themselves how much the heat loss
is from a small lagged tank even at 60°C, which if it is inside the
house is only keeping the house warm, compared with the heat loss from
four walls a roof and a floor in a detached house...
...During my divorce I stayed with a friend who should have known
better, who insisted the kettle never be filled to more than the amount
required for the hot drink.

I spent some time on the calculator and handed him over 50p 'that should
make it up for the next three months'

But you never get back the extra minutes waiting for it to boil!
30 seconds, not minutes

And I do other things like unload the dishwasher...in those 3o seconds




Even People Who *Can* Do Sums are often too lazy or stupid to *do* them.




--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

In message , at 14:31:16 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:03:02 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
12:07:16 on Thu, 8 Oct 2020, Robin remarked:
On 08/10/2020 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
Currently I have a boiler with a controller that simply turns it on
(for CH) during pre-programmed hours. Rads have thermostatic valves.
I'd like to add a room thermostat in the living room [running
additional wiring isn't an issue] but need to know if it can simply
be put in series with the timer-control.
I realise that the heat in the rest of the house will suffer if the
living room is warm enough, but surely that's a natural consequence of
any room thermostat.

Have you considered a wireless programmer/thermostat in place of your
control? That gives you the option of a portable control so e.g. if
you wake up early you can turn the heating on early or turn the heating
up. Of course there are options to do the same and more with a smart
phone but a wireless programmer/thermostat starts at c. £50.

I'm trying to keep it simple.

That's what your system currently is, but you're not happy with it?

Doesn't currently have a room thermostat, but I've spent whole £12 on
one earlier today.

Having had a simple thermostat on a system installed some 40 odd years
ago, I changed it to a programmable one. Very useful as most want a higher
temperature in the sitting room when relaxing at the end of the day.

I've got a wood-burner for that!

Good way to update a basic system, and no more effort than fitting an
ordinary stat.

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 18:28:15 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Jeff Layman wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info-Slimline.html
You forgot to add the link to the receiver required to work with
that Heatmiser transmitter

I didn't forget, the O/P said he was perfectly happy to install a cable.

Not only that - the cable's already there. The cable also doesn't have a
battery in it that will need replacing one day (can you tell I'm getting
very fed up with replacing batteries?)
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 18:31:41 on Fri, 9 Oct
2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info-Slimline.html
Could I wire that with one pair of conductors to the boiler?

No jut two wires, it'd need a 3+E cable (perm live to stat, neutral to
stat, switched live to boiler, earth)

How is it powered.

mains

The site above has very little [actually, none] installation detail.

The heatmiser site itself has install manuals, the only reason I linked
to the website above is that it's £20 cheaper from there.


OK. I'll consider something like that if I need to replace the
controller.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

The cable also doesn't have a battery in it that will need replacing one
day (can you tell I'm getting very fed up with replacing batteries?)

Yes, that would put me off the idea of individually controlled TRVs

On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 19:06:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

To get the house up to temperature on a cold morning make that
thee hours,

That's worse than this place, that's high, exposed, draughty and
not
overly well insulated. If it's not windy it takes about 90 mins to
reach the target temp on a cold morning. If it's windy and cold
the
boiler can barely keep up...

UFH. very very long time constant

Ah, equivalent of letting this place cool down, high thermal mass.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 18:54:21 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

I'm not 100% sure what wiring the OP has, there is mention of two
wire and two wire plus L and N.

controller /------make-------\
| | | |

N L 1 2 3 4

| | | |

from to to
mains boiler boiler

But the more I look at it, the more I suspect that either 1 or 4 is also
tied to one or other of the N/L mains. Some testing required, because
the documentation is ****.

A lot of programablale stats time switches etc are "volt free" on the
contacts ie. not connected to the devices supply (mains or battery)
internally. The switching bits are mains rated so the actual control
circuit can be low voltage or mains.

I thought there was a standard wiring layout for thermostat back
plates but as with many standards there are so many to choose from...
I sort of side step that issue by bringing every connection from a
stat, switch, motorised valve, etc back to a wiring center and
fitting jumpers as required to create the correct circuit(s), I like
the ACL Lifestyle LWC1.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Andy Burns wrote:

No jut two wires
^ ^
t s

it'd need a 3+E cable

In message , at 08:07:01 on Sat, 10
Oct 2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

The cable also doesn't have a battery in it that will need replacing
one day (can you tell I'm getting very fed up with replacing
batteries?)

Yes, that would put me off the idea of individually controlled TRVs

And most of my TRVs are in rather inaccessible places (mainly behind
bits of furniture).
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
Having had a simple thermostat on a system installed some 40 odd years
ago, I changed it to a programmable one. Very useful as most want a
higher temperature in the sitting room when relaxing at the end of the
day.

I've got a wood-burner for that!

Last thing you want is an all house stat in the same room as an additional
heat source like a wood burner. That will simply kill the heating to the
rest of the house.

--
*Aim Low, Reach Your Goals, Avoid Disappointment *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
A lot of programablale stats time switches etc are "volt free" on the
contacts ie. not connected to the devices supply (mains or battery)
internally. The switching bits are mains rated so the actual control
circuit can be low voltage or mains.

Mine had a long lived battery. With a clever type of relay (taking a very
small current from the battery) to switch the boiler.

Although I already had a neutral and earth run to the thermostat location
(triple and earth)

--
*It's o.k. to laugh during sexŒ.Œ.just don't point!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:07:01 on Sat, 10
Oct 2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

The cable also doesn't have a battery in it that will need replacing
one day (can you tell I'm getting very fed up with replacing
batteries?)

Yes, that would put me off the idea of individually controlled TRVs

And most of my TRVs are in rather inaccessible places (mainly behind
bits of furniture).

Means the rads are too?

--
*All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 11:26:22 on Sat, 10 Oct
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
Having had a simple thermostat on a system installed some 40 odd years
ago, I changed it to a programmable one. Very useful as most want a
higher temperature in the sitting room when relaxing at the end of the
day.

I've got a wood-burner for that!

Last thing you want is an all house stat in the same room as an additional
heat source like a wood burner.

The stat isn't in exactly the same room.

That will simply kill the heating to the rest of the house.

And why does that matter, if we are all in the room with the log-burner?

In fact, it's actually a positive outcome.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:30:41 on Sat, 10 Oct
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:07:01 on Sat, 10
Oct 2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

The cable also doesn't have a battery in it that will need replacing
one day (can you tell I'm getting very fed up with replacing
batteries?)

Yes, that would put me off the idea of individually controlled TRVs

And most of my TRVs are in rather inaccessible places (mainly behind
bits of furniture).

Means the rads are too?

Some bits of the rads are, but especially the ends. A couple of the
bits of furniture are tables/desks, and don't prevent the heat getting
to the room under the tabletop (and of course up the wall too - but
that's because what we call "radiators" are actually more accurately
"convectioners").

--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:26:22 on Sat, 10 Oct
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
Having had a simple thermostat on a system installed some 40 odd
years ago, I changed it to a programmable one. Very useful as most
want a higher temperature in the sitting room when relaxing at the
end of the day.

I've got a wood-burner for that!

Last thing you want is an all house stat in the same room as an
additional heat source like a wood burner.

The stat isn't in exactly the same room.

Right. So what exactly is this all house stat seeing?

That will simply kill the heating to the rest of the house.

And why does that matter, if we are all in the room with the log-burner?

In fact, it's actually a positive outcome.

Not much point in having central heating, then.

--
*WHY IS THERE AN EXPIRATION DATE ON SOUR CREAM?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
And most of my TRVs are in rather inaccessible places (mainly behind
bits of furniture).

Means the rads are too?

Some bits of the rads are, but especially the ends. A couple of the
bits of furniture are tables/desks, and don't prevent the heat getting
to the room under the tabletop (and of course up the wall too - but
that's because what we call "radiators" are actually more accurately
"convectioners").

A TRV works by convection too. And anything which restricts the flow round
the rad will effect the output.

--
*The colder the X-ray table, the more of your body is required on it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 16:31:41 on Sat, 10 Oct
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:26:22 on Sat, 10 Oct
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
Having had a simple thermostat on a system installed some 40 odd
years ago, I changed it to a programmable one. Very useful as most
want a higher temperature in the sitting room when relaxing at the
end of the day.

I've got a wood-burner for that!

Last thing you want is an all house stat in the same room as an
additional heat source like a wood burner.

The stat isn't in exactly the same room.

Right. So what exactly is this all house stat seeing?

The temperature in the new kitchen/diner extension.

That will simply kill the heating to the rest of the house.

And why does that matter, if we are all in the room with the log-burner?

In fact, it's actually a positive outcome.

Not much point in having central heating, then.

The central heating is manly for the early morning, when I never have
the log-burner operating.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 16:33:44 on Sat, 10 Oct
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
And most of my TRVs are in rather inaccessible places (mainly behind
bits of furniture).

Means the rads are too?

Some bits of the rads are, but especially the ends. A couple of the
bits of furniture are tables/desks, and don't prevent the heat getting
to the room under the tabletop (and of course up the wall too - but
that's because what we call "radiators" are actually more accurately
"convectioners").

A TRV works by convection too. And anything which restricts the flow round
the rad will effect the output.

Never had any problems so far in the way they affect the output.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

The central heating is manly for the early morning, when I never have
the log-burner operating.

In which case, a programmable stat has another advantage, you don't tell
it when to turn on, you tell it when you want it to have reached target
temperature ... it learns how quickly your house heats up and on colder
mornings it comes on earlier.

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
The stat isn't in exactly the same room.

Right. So what exactly is this all house stat seeing?

The temperature in the new kitchen/diner extension.

A kitchen isn't the ideal place for an all house thermostat given
temperatures can be very high in there when cooking.

--
*Why does the sun lighten our hair, but darken our skin?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.