Chris Green wrote:
Lifetime of what? It still works as a phone even when not being
updated, and there is the extra plus that it doesn't run out of space
all by itself because of more and more updates eating space.

As regards security I don't keep anything worth stealing on my phone! :-)

Do you do any of these things:

- run apps
- have email on your phone
- keep contacts on your phone
- calendars
- keep photos or files you don't want other people to see
- connect to wifi networks that aren't your own
- have an airtime contract / substantial PAYG balance

If so you're potentially at risk from having phone out of security support.
It's up to you to make a judgement as to the risks of data being
stolen. But it's simplistic to just say 'I don't use my phone for banking
so I'm OK'.

Theo

On 19/09/2020 11:32, Theo wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
Lifetime of what? It still works as a phone even when not being
updated, and there is the extra plus that it doesn't run out of space
all by itself because of more and more updates eating space.

As regards security I don't keep anything worth stealing on my phone! :-)

Do you do any of these things:

- run apps
yes, so what?
- have email on your phone
Not really. Yes there are passwords but I can change them in less than
30 seconds
- keep contacts on your phone
yes, but then they are all being spammed already

- calendars
No

- keep photos or files you don't want other people to see
No

- connect to wifi networks that aren't your own
Sure, but I don't do anything serious over tyhem

- have an airtime contract / substantial PAYG balance

No.

If so you're potentially at risk from having phone out of security support.
It's up to you to make a judgement as to the risks of data being
stolen. But it's simplistic to just say 'I don't use my phone for banking
so I'm OK'.

Well I do understand internet risk.

All that is really at risk is my email passwords, which wouldn't take
long to change as they are controlled exclusively by me, and email and
whatsapp and skype contacts.

But they are a lot less at risk than contacts of people with windows on
their PCS ad outlook style mail


I dont regard my phone as in anyway my main way to do *anything* except
satnav.


I regard it as a cheap nasty utterly insecure piece of far east crap
that is just about usable if I cant get to a proper computer.

It's a handy camera, and video camera, a pretty good satnav, useful for
scanning wifi networks and has a good guitar tuner app. I can at a pinch
read ebooks on it. It is usable as an emergency email client if I have
not got my laptop.

And it receives text messages from the NHS and my bank and from people
shipping me stuff.

Making sure it DOESN'T get nicked is easier and cheaper than spending a
fortune on it.




--
€œIt is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.€�

ۥ Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

Theo wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
Lifetime of what? It still works as a phone even when not being
updated, and there is the extra plus that it doesn't run out of space
all by itself because of more and more updates eating space.

As regards security I don't keep anything worth stealing on my phone! :-)

Do you do any of these things:

- run apps

Just (as I said) the no data consumption satnav


- have email on your phone
No


- keep contacts on your phone
no

- calendars
no

- keep photos or files you don't want other people to see
no

- connect to wifi networks that aren't your own
no

- have an airtime contract / substantial PAYG balance
no


If so you're potentially at risk from having phone out of security support.
It's up to you to make a judgement as to the risks of data being
stolen. But it's simplistic to just say 'I don't use my phone for banking
so I'm OK'.

See above! :-) I am *much* more careful about security on my laptop.

--
Chris Green
·

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
[snip]

All that is really at risk is my email passwords, which wouldn't take
long to change as they are controlled exclusively by me, and email and
whatsapp and skype contacts.

What E-Mail passwords? :-)

I run an SMTP server on my home desktop machine, mail gets delivered
direct to that machine, no mailboxes with passwords along the way.

However I do wonder about people thinking their E-Mail can be secure
in any real sort of way. I was always told to treat an E-Mail like a
postcard, *anyone* can read it as it passes through. Dropping it into
a locked letter box at the end of the journey is rather shutting the
stable door after the horse has bolted.

Encrypted E-Mail is better, but only a bit, if someone has a copy
then they have as much time as they like to decrypt it, much easier
than brute forcing a login password where any half decent system stops
you after a few attempts.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green wrote:
However I do wonder about people thinking their E-Mail can be secure
in any real sort of way. I was always told to treat an E-Mail like a
postcard, *anyone* can read it as it passes through. Dropping it into
a locked letter box at the end of the journey is rather shutting the
stable door after the horse has bolted.

The problem with email security these days is not people intercepting it in
transit, it's people gaining control of your account. Then they either
impersonate you (depends how gullible your contacts are at clicking on bad
links or responding to fraudsters - not something you can control), but more
of a threat is using your email to gain control of your other accounts.

How many services are you signed up to that have a 'forgot password' option
where they send you an email with some reset information? How many of those
try and do 2-factor authentication by SMS? (your phone has been compromised,
don't forget).

Think about how many accounts control of your email and SMS give you. It's
probably a large number. Then think about what malicious things you could
do with control of those accounts. That's the problem to be concerned
about.

Theo

On 17/9/20 10:33 pm, Ian Jackson wrote:
My present phone makes phone calls and texts - but that's all.

I want to buy a modern smartphone for PAYG, but I'm amazed at the
virtually infinite range of models and prices - literally anything from
£10 to £1000.

It's only for occasional use, and doesn't need to do anything fancy -
but obviously a few phonecalls, texts, internet, apps etc. The Samsung
A20E (at around £150) seems to be well recommended as a reasonable
compromise - but there are several others in a similar price range. I
don't really want to pay more, so does anyone have any suggestions?

Umidigi power 3,very cheap, four cameras huge battery(6.1)Ah
NFC.OTG.6.53 screen.

Theo wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
However I do wonder about people thinking their E-Mail can be secure
in any real sort of way. I was always told to treat an E-Mail like a
postcard, *anyone* can read it as it passes through. Dropping it into
a locked letter box at the end of the journey is rather shutting the
stable door after the horse has bolted.

The problem with email security these days is not people intercepting it in
transit, it's people gaining control of your account. Then they either
impersonate you (depends how gullible your contacts are at clicking on bad
links or responding to fraudsters - not something you can control), but more
of a threat is using your email to gain control of your other accounts.

Well yes, I sort of agree, but see below...

How many services are you signed up to that have a 'forgot password' option
where they send you an email with some reset information? How many of those
try and do 2-factor authentication by SMS? (your phone has been compromised,
don't forget).

Yes, I always wonder at these given the lack of security of E-Mail.
As I originally said E-Mail really, really isn't secure. If someone
guesses your mail password and has access to your E-Mail it makes
things easier but it's simply *so* easy to fake an E-Mail that
anything that uses this to do something that really needs to be secure
is not very clever.

Think about how many accounts control of your email and SMS give you. It's
probably a large number. Then think about what malicious things you could
do with control of those accounts. That's the problem to be concerned
about.

But what does "control of your email" mean? Any fool can send an
E-Mail that, unless analysed in considerable depth by someone with a
lot of network/mail expertise, will look as if it comes from 'you'.

SMS is probably slightly better (but maybe that's because I know less
about how it works).

--
Chris Green
·

On 19/09/2020 15:35, Theo wrote:
Think about how many accounts control of your email and SMS give you.

I cant think of one.


It's
probably a large number.

Zero is not a large number .

Then think about what malicious things you could
do with control of those accounts. That's the problem to be concerned
about.

Nothing important.



--
€œwhen things get difficult you just have to lie€�

€• Jean Claud Jüncker

Chris Green wrote:
But what does "control of your email" mean? Any fool can send an
E-Mail that, unless analysed in considerable depth by someone with a
lot of network/mail expertise, will look as if it comes from 'you'.

Somebody finds out your email password or other login credentials, perhaps
by phishing or hacking an app on your phone. They use this to login to
Gmail / Outlook / whatever mailbox as you (even the webmail on your own
server). Then they go to your online shopping/etc accounts and go 'I forgot
my password' and the password reset message gets sent to the mailbox they
now control. Now they can reset the password to something they chose, and
have a login on your account. For bonus effect, you now can't login to the
account with the old password. As a second defence, they now change the
email address on the account to one they control.

Just think about the number of places you've used your email address for
some shop or service, and that should indicate the scale of the problem.

SMS is probably slightly better (but maybe that's because I know less
about how it works).

If your phone is compromised, they can intercept your SMS too. Actually, it
doesn't even need to be compromised - on Android there's a permission that
says 'apps can read my SMS'. In previous times at install time Android
would give you a long list of permissions an app was requesting and you
could take it or leave it. If you agreed to install the app it got all the
permissions, and of course app developers asked for all the permissions they
could, all the better to datamine you. These days Android will ask about
'dangerous' permissions and you can deny it - but then all they need to do
is come up with a plausible reason the app might want to use SMS (eg many
apps text you a code as part of a signup process and would ask to read the
SMS)

iOS just bans apps access to SMS, end of problem.

(unless your phone is hacked, for which the exploits are very valuable and
much less of a concern unless you're a high value target)

Theo

In message , at 12:52:24 on Sun,
20 Sep 2020, Theo remarked:

Just think about the number of places you've used your email address for
some shop or service, and that should indicate the scale of the problem.

I find this concept of "my email address" a bit quaint. I've got many
(for different purposes). At different domains, hosted in many different
places.

Doesn't always work, though.

As far as I can tell stopped working at some
point long ago. Not sure how/why that happened.

And if we get 'no deal' (or even a 'bad deal') I expect my ".eu" email
addresses to eventually not be renewable. How many people saw that
coming?
--
Roland Perry

Theo wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
But what does "control of your email" mean? Any fool can send an
E-Mail that, unless analysed in considerable depth by someone with a
lot of network/mail expertise, will look as if it comes from 'you'.

Somebody finds out your email password or other login credentials, perhaps
by phishing or hacking an app on your phone. They use this to login to
Gmail / Outlook / whatever mailbox as you (even the webmail on your own
server). Then they go to your online shopping/etc accounts and go 'I forgot
my password' and the password reset message gets sent to the mailbox they
now control. Now they can reset the password to something they chose, and
have a login on your account. For bonus effect, you now can't login to the
account with the old password. As a second defence, they now change the
email address on the account to one they control.

But what do they do once they have access to a shopping account? I
*never* save credit card details there so they won't be able to buy
anything without paying for it themselves. They could see what I've
bought in the past, how exciting!

If they change the email address on the account then it's no longer my
account at all and I care even less what they do with it! :-)

--
Chris Green
·

In message , Ian Jackson
writes
My present phone makes phone calls and texts - but that's all.

I want to buy a modern smartphone for PAYG, but I'm amazed at the
virtually infinite range of models and prices - literally anything from
£10 to £1000.

It's only for occasional use, and doesn't need to do anything fancy -
but obviously a few phonecalls, texts, internet, apps etc. The Samsung
A20E (at around £150) seems to be well recommended as a reasonable
compromise - but there are several others in a similar price range. I
don't really want to pay more, so does anyone have any suggestions?

Many thanks to those who made various alternative suggestions, but in
the end I've sent off for the A20E.
--
Ian

In article ,
Chris Green wrote:
Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote:
R D S laid this down on his screen :
If you are careful you can get away with spending 6 quid per month (and much
less even if you don't need data and your contacts are also with Giff Gaff)

That is what I was doing, via GG, but then Plusnet offered me
unlimited, unlimited, with 4Gb included per month for £6 - so I took up
the offer and cancelled my £8 per month unlimited calls on the
landline. The increased the £6 soon after, to £6.09 per month.

I went from using my mobile just occaisionaly, because every call cost
me, to making quite liberal use of it.

The quality of our landline DECT phones is so much better than a
mobile I'd be quite happy to pay a bit more anyway.

Very true. It never ceases to surprise me just how many calls from a
mobile have terrible audio quality. Even in London where you'd expect the
coverage to be OK.

--

--
*When you get a bladder infection urine trouble.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Chris Green wrote:
But what do they do once they have access to a shopping account? I
*never* save credit card details there so they won't be able to buy
anything without paying for it themselves.

They wouldn't anyway with a saved credit card details unless they have the
3 digit security code from the card. And if they have that, they will have
all the other details too.

--
*A plateau is a high form of flattery*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 26/09/2020 20:27, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Ian Jackson
writes
My present phone makes phone calls and texts - but that's all.

I want to buy a modern smartphone for PAYG, but I'm amazed at the
virtually infinite range of models and prices - literally anything
from £10 to £1000.

It's only for occasional use, and doesn't need to do anything fancy -
but obviously a few phonecalls, texts, internet, apps etc. The Samsung
A20E (at around £150) seems to be well recommended as a reasonable
compromise - but there are several others in a similar price range. I
don't really want to pay more, so does anyone have any suggestions?

Many thanks to those who made various alternative suggestions, but in
the end I've sent off for the A20E.
hope it wasn't carphone warehouse who sell your details then you get
endless calls quoting your first name so you don't hang up too soon .....

In message , at 09:39:37 on Sun, 27 Sep
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
If you are careful you can get away with spending 6 quid per month (and much
less even if you don't need data and your contacts are also with Giff Gaff)

That is what I was doing, via GG, but then Plusnet offered me
unlimited, unlimited, with 4Gb included per month for £6 - so I took up
the offer and cancelled my £8 per month unlimited calls on the
landline. The increased the £6 soon after, to £6.09 per month.

I went from using my mobile just occaisionaly, because every call cost
me, to making quite liberal use of it.

The quality of our landline DECT phones is so much better than a
mobile I'd be quite happy to pay a bit more anyway.

Very true. It never ceases to surprise me just how many calls from a
mobile have terrible audio quality. Even in London where you'd expect the
coverage to be OK.

I chuckle every time I hear the BBC interviewer on the news, confronted
by an unintelligible interviewee on the other end of a poor mobile phone
connection saying "we seem to be having problems with your line".

Landline, grandma?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 09:48:36 on Sun, 27 Sep
2020, Jim GM4 DHJ ... remarked:
My present phone makes phone calls and texts - but that's all.

I want to buy a modern smartphone for PAYG, but I'm amazed at the
virtually infinite range of models and prices - literally anything
from £10 to £1000.

It's only for occasional use, and doesn't need to do anything fancy
- but obviously a few phonecalls, texts, internet, apps etc. The
Samsung A20E (at around £150) seems to be well recommended as a
reasonable compromise - but there are several others in a similar
price range. I don't really want to pay more, so does anyone have
any suggestions?

Many thanks to those who made various alternative suggestions, but
in the end I've sent off for the A20E.

hope it wasn't carphone warehouse who sell your details then you get
endless calls quoting your first name so you don't hang up too soon

£129 from Amazon, although I gave up on Galaxy phones because of the
non-standard Android and associated bloatware.
--
Roland Perry

In article , Roland Perry
wrote:
In message , at 09:39:37 on Sun, 27 Sep
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
If you are careful you can get away with spending 6 quid per month
(and much less even if you don't need data and your contacts are
also with Giff Gaff)

That is what I was doing, via GG, but then Plusnet offered me
unlimited, unlimited, with 4Gb included per month for £6 - so I took
up the offer and cancelled my £8 per month unlimited calls on the
landline. The increased the £6 soon after, to £6.09 per month.

I went from using my mobile just occaisionaly, because every call
cost me, to making quite liberal use of it.

The quality of our landline DECT phones is so much better than a
mobile I'd be quite happy to pay a bit more anyway.

Very true. It never ceases to surprise me just how many calls from a
mobile have terrible audio quality. Even in London where you'd expect
the coverage to be OK.

I chuckle every time I hear the BBC interviewer on the news, confronted
by an unintelligible interviewee on the other end of a poor mobile phone
connection saying "we seem to be having problems with your line".

Landline, grandma?

even if it's an internet connection, it is likely to be via a landline

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 27/09/2020 11:25, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:48:36 on Sun, 27 Sep
2020, Jim GM4 DHJ ... remarked:
My present phone makes phone calls and texts - but that's all.

I want to buy a modern smartphone for PAYG, but I'm amazed at the
virtually infinite range of models and prices - literally anything
from £10 to £1000.

It's only for occasional use, and doesn't need to do anything fancy
-Â* but obviously a few phonecalls, texts, internet, apps etc. The
SamsungÂ* A20E (at around £150) seems to be well recommended as a
reasonableÂ* compromise - but there are several others in a similar
price range. IÂ* don't really want to pay more, so does anyone have
any suggestions?

Â*Many thanks to those who made various alternative suggestions, but
inÂ* the end I've sent off for the A20E.

hope it wasn't carphone warehouse who sell your details then you get
endless calls quoting your first name so you don't hang up too soon

£129 from Amazon, although I gave up on Galaxy phones because of the
non-standard Android and associated bloatware.
love my 2012 galaxy 2

In message , at 11:59:06 on Sun, 27
Sep 2020, charles remarked:

I chuckle every time I hear the BBC interviewer on the news, confronted
by an unintelligible interviewee on the other end of a poor mobile phone
connection saying "we seem to be having problems with your line".

Landline, grandma?

even if it's an internet connection, it is likely to be via a landline

But the weakest link on such calls is always the phone-to-cellsite.
--
Roland Perry

In article , Pamela
scribeth thus
On 09:39 27 Sep 2020, Dave Plowman (News) said:
In article ,
Chris Green wrote:
Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote:
R D S laid this down on his screen :

If you are careful you can get away with spending 6 quid per month
(and much less even if you don't need data and your contacts are
also with Giff Gaff)

That is what I was doing, via GG, but then Plusnet offered me
unlimited, unlimited, with 4Gb included per month for £6 - so I took
up the offer and cancelled my £8 per month unlimited calls on the
landline. The increased the £6 soon after, to £6.09 per month.

I went from using my mobile just occaisionaly, because every call
cost me, to making quite liberal use of it.

The quality of our landline DECT phones is so much better than a mobile
I'd be quite happy to pay a bit more anyway.

Very true. It never ceases to surprise me just how many calls from a
mobile have terrible audio quality. Even in London where you'd expect
the coverage to be OK.

Got an olde MOTO 4G phone most of the time when its good its good
sometimes on some sources its excellent depends of the bandwidth
available for transmission.

Got a mate out in the channel islands on a GSM call usually **** poor on
a wattsapp call or VoIP type call then very good received at my end on
said mobile!


I've never heard such poor speech quality, mainly on radio phone-ins, as
during the pandemic. Probably partly due to Skype, Zoom, etc.

Or maybe the lack of bits owing the sheer overload of most all
networks?.

We had VM and Zen here at that time both fell over...

--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

In article ,
Pamela wrote:
Very true. It never ceases to surprise me just how many calls from a
mobile have terrible audio quality. Even in London where you'd expect
the coverage to be OK.

I've never heard such poor speech quality, mainly on radio phone-ins, as
during the pandemic. Probably partly due to Skype, Zoom, etc.

Having used Zoom quite a bit during this pandemic, never quite understood
how they can have reasonable pictures but appalling sound. But not always
- from the same person using exactly the same equipment as previously.

--
*With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 11:14:12 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Having used Zoom quite a bit during this pandemic, never quite
understood how they can have reasonable pictures but appalling sound.
But not always - from the same person using exactly the same equipment
as previously.

Aye, in a conversation the most important information is the sound,
that should be the last to go. Reduce the resolution, reduce the
frame rate but maintain the sound. No point in seeing someones lips
move in glorious 8k if you can't hear the words (lip readers
excepted).

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pamela wrote:
Very true. It never ceases to surprise me just how many calls from a
mobile have terrible audio quality. Even in London where you'd expect
the coverage to be OK.

I've never heard such poor speech quality, mainly on radio phone-ins, as
during the pandemic. Probably partly due to Skype, Zoom, etc.

Having used Zoom quite a bit during this pandemic, never quite understood
how they can have reasonable pictures but appalling sound. But not always
- from the same person using exactly the same equipment as previously.

As I've seen it, the pictures are often static or jerky when coupled with
bad sound.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pamela wrote:
Very true. It never ceases to surprise me just how many calls from
a mobile have terrible audio quality. Even in London where you'd
expect the coverage to be OK.

I've never heard such poor speech quality, mainly on radio
phone-ins, as during the pandemic. Probably partly due to Skype,
Zoom, etc.

Having used Zoom quite a bit during this pandemic, never quite
understood how they can have reasonable pictures but appalling sound.
But not always - from the same person using exactly the same equipment
as previously.

As I've seen it, the pictures are often static or jerky when coupled
with bad sound.

Sometimes - but not always. Since it is a method of communication, I'd
expect it to be designed so the pictures to disappear before the sound is
effected, excepted for total loss of signal.

--
*Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 14:11:24 on Mon, 28 Sep
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
Having used Zoom quite a bit during this pandemic, never quite
understood how they can have reasonable pictures but appalling sound.
But not always - from the same person using exactly the same equipment
as previously.

As I've seen it, the pictures are often static or jerky when coupled
with bad sound.

Sometimes - but not always. Since it is a method of communication, I'd
expect it to be designed so the pictures to disappear before the sound is
effected,

did you mean "affected"?

excepted for total loss of signal.

--
Roland Perry

In message , Jim GM4 DHJ ...
writes
On 26/09/2020 20:27, Ian Jackson wrote:




Many thanks to those who made various alternative suggestions, but
in the end I've sent off for the A20E.

hope it wasn't carphone warehouse who sell your details then you get
endless calls quoting your first name so you don't hang up too soon
.....

No, no. I ordered it online from John Lewis, and next day collected it
from Waitrose. Kwality!
--
Ian