In message , PJ
writes

Well,he's the 'pro' who can't conceal pressure pads or even get them to
work properly, so I'd put him in the IMM class...

WHAT?? No no no, I am more than capable of installing mats BUT stopped doing
that 20+ years ago when new (and much better) technology appeared. Trust me,
I've installed more pressure mats than you'd believe. AND they were
concealed. AND we didn't cut the underlay!

As for relays, I made more circuits using those when I was at college then
you probably have but again, I dropped them in favour of better and more
reliable technology. That was 27 years ago and YOU are still using them
today. Says it all really!

Relays are still used in many fields of electronics - they've moved on
too.




--
geoff

In article ,
PJ wrote:
Well,he's the 'pro' who can't conceal pressure pads or even get them to
work properly, so I'd put him in the IMM class...

WHAT?? No no no, I am more than capable of installing mats BUT stopped
doing that 20+ years ago when new (and much better) technology appeared.
Trust me, I've installed more pressure mats than you'd believe. AND they
were concealed. AND we didn't cut the underlay!

You mean you installed useless technology? You've said on a number of
occasions they are unreliable and don't last. So you just took the money
and ran?

As for relays, I made more circuits using those when I was at college
then you probably have but again, I dropped them in favour of better and
more reliable technology. That was 27 years ago and YOU are still using
them today. Says it all really!

You're definitely out of the IMM mould. Anything new is always better and
exclusively replaces older techniques - regardless.

I've got news for you. Nothing replaced relays for all applications. And I
daresay you'll still find them in the finest alarm currently available.

--
*A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
PJ wrote:
Well,he's the 'pro' who can't conceal pressure pads or even get them
to
work properly, so I'd put him in the IMM class...

WHAT?? No no no, I am more than capable of installing mats BUT stopped
doing that 20+ years ago when new (and much better) technology appeared.
Trust me, I've installed more pressure mats than you'd believe. AND they
were concealed. AND we didn't cut the underlay!

You mean you installed useless technology? You've said on a number of
occasions they are unreliable and don't last. So you just took the money
and ran?

No, please read my posts properly. I said we used to install them UNTIL
better technology became available. Up to the late 70's it was usual to
install door contacts and pressure mats. Maybe the odd ultrasonic too. After
around 1978 though they were starting to be faded out. Understand me now?
What I am saying is that 25 years ago pressure mats became old hat in favour
of voluetric protection. YOU though still have mats!



As for relays, I made more circuits using those when I was at college
then you probably have but again, I dropped them in favour of better and
more reliable technology. That was 27 years ago and YOU are still using
them today. Says it all really!

You're definitely out of the IMM mould. Anything new is always better and
exclusively replaces older techniques - regardless.

When it comes to pressure mats, yes, indeed.


I've got news for you. Nothing replaced relays for all applications. And I
daresay you'll still find them in the finest alarm currently available.

--
*A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Tim S" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:05:20 +0100, PJ wrote:

What a load of ********.

What is?

The crap suggestions then the "experts" come up with here.

In case you hadn't noticed, this is uk.d-i-y - not
uk.im-a-professional

Most people take it as read that suggestions are usually ideas
often worthy of further checking.

And most people manage to carry on without sounding like an arrogant
dismissive t*sser.

plonk

PLONK

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:04:43 +0100, PJ wrote:

As for relays, I made more circuits using those when I was at
college then you probably have but again, I dropped them in favour
of better and more reliable technology.

More references to this "better and more reliable technology" please.

That was 27 years ago and YOU are still using them today. Says it
all really!

So am I, half a dozen(*) in the 4 zone, dual pumped, single boiler,
central heating control system. Mains coils, switching mains power
into inductive loads at around 0.5A when running. Cheap, reliable and
robust.

OK so this is mains and power not tiddley little alarm stuff but the
not so old alarm panel has at least 2 relays in it and each (ancient
but much less than 27 years) PIRs has one.

(*) Doesn't include the 4 others in the two commercial programmers.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
PJ wrote:
No, please read my posts properly. I said we used to install them UNTIL
better technology became available. Up to the late 70's it was usual to
install door contacts and pressure mats. Maybe the odd ultrasonic too.
After around 1978 though they were starting to be faded out. Understand
me now? What I am saying is that 25 years ago pressure mats became old
hat in favour of voluetric protection. YOU though still have mats!

Of course you prefer volumetric protection. Easier to install, so more
profit.

Perhaps you'd advise those who ask for advice rather than your usual put
downs. But not me, thanks. If I need advice, I'll ask for it, and hope to
get an answer from someone who actually understands the subject.

--
*Why can't women put on mascara with their mouth closed?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article om,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
As for relays, I made more circuits using those when I was at
college then you probably have but again, I dropped them in favour
of better and more reliable technology.

More references to this "better and more reliable technology" please.

And something that can switch pretty well any type of electrical signal...

--
*There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article om,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
As for relays, I made more circuits using those when I was at
college then you probably have but again, I dropped them in favour
of better and more reliable technology.

More references to this "better and more reliable technology" please.

And something that can switch pretty well any type of electrical signal...

Cheaply and reliably, with e.g. inductive loads

--
geoff

In article ,
raden wrote:
More references to this "better and more reliable technology" please.

And something that can switch pretty well any type of electrical
signal...

Cheaply and reliably, with e.g. inductive loads

And with negligible insertion loss...

--
*If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is he homeless or naked?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Of course you prefer volumetric protection. Easier to install, so more
profit.

Wrong again! Less profit actually. Less labour cost = less direct profit.

See, you just don't understand.

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:11:44 GMT, raden wrote:

More references to this "better and more reliable technology"
please.

And something that can switch pretty well any type of electrical
signal...

Cheaply and reliably, with e.g. inductive loads

Naw, just make it reactive loads.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
PJ wrote:
Of course you prefer volumetric protection. Easier to install, so more
profit.

Wrong again! Less profit actually. Less labour cost = less direct profit.

See, you just don't understand.

You're a bigger fool than I thought.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
PJ wrote:
Of course you prefer volumetric protection. Easier to install, so more
profit.

Wrong again! Less profit actually. Less labour cost = less direct
profit.

See, you just don't understand.

You're a bigger fool than I thought.

You know, you're damn right. I am a bloody fool. I sold my business a couple
of years ago and put just under £2m in my bank (after tax) and here I am on
this newsgroup putting up with ******s like you.

Yes, I'm a fool alright.

"PJ" . wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
PJ wrote:
Of course you prefer volumetric protection. Easier to install, so
more
profit.

Wrong again! Less profit actually. Less labour cost = less direct
profit.

See, you just don't understand.

You're a bigger fool than I thought.

You know, you're damn right. I am a bloody fool. I sold my business a
couple
of years ago and put just under £2m in my bank (after tax) and here I am
on
this newsgroup putting up with ******s like you.

Yes, I'm a fool alright.

I know you you feel.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| More references to this "better and more reliable technology"
| please.
| And something that can switch pretty well any type of electrical
| signal...
| Cheaply and reliably, with e.g. inductive loads
| And with negligible insertion loss...

And makes useful clicky noise to reassure one it's working ...

Owain

In article ,
PJ . wrote:
Wrong again! Less profit actually. Less labour cost = less direct
profit.

See, you just don't understand.

You're a bigger fool than I thought.

You know, you're damn right. I am a bloody fool. I sold my business a
couple of years ago and put just under £2m in my bank (after tax) and
here I am on this newsgroup putting up with ******s like you.

It's always nice when people boast about how rich they are. Hope it made
you feel good, as well as looking a prat to everyone else. Apart from IMM,
of course.

Yes, I'm a fool alright.

You've certainly demonstrated that over your lack of understanding of
relays and their functions.

--
*If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"PJ" wrote in message ...
Well, you're not meant to position PIRs facing sources of sunlight,
like outer doors and windows in any room.

Errr, wrong again. The best place for a PIR in any room is in the corner
above the door - LOOKING AT THE WINDOW!!!.

The other reason is that you cannot accidentally block it's view of the room
with furniture etc.

I never point PIRs at windows/sources of sunlight. Last time I looked
at the instructions that came with a PIR it tells you exactly that as
it may create false alarms. I know many installers still do position
them towards the windows but as long as the sensor manufacturer's say
not to, then I won't.

"Ed" wrote in message ...
Regards..How much should I pay for a wired alarm system 5 movement detectors
2 door switches outdoor siren and strobe plus dummy box and indoor siren ?
any ideas of cost or suggestions ? Thank you E


In London estimates from installers will be about £600 to £1200. The
higher normally being from the famous names (ADT etc). They will also
include monitoring as part of the price which you will have to pay for
seperately so even those original prices are subsidised to a degree
because of the money they make from monitoring contracts.

To buy the stuff yourself you're looking at around £150.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:08:07 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You know, you're damn right. I am a bloody fool.

It's always nice when people boast about how rich they are.

Don't worry about it Dave, a fool and his money are soon parted. But
then 2 milli pounds isn't a great deal anyway.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

It's always nice when people boast about how rich they are. Hope it made
you feel good, as well as looking a prat to everyone else. Apart from IMM,
of course.

Boast? No, not a boast at all. It's nothing to boast about. £2m is small
these days. I actually sold my business cheap because for many reasons the
time was right for me to get out. So wrong again, I don't boast.
Yes, I'm a fool alright.

You've certainly demonstrated that over your lack of understanding of
relays and their functions.

Maybe that's why I have a degree in electronics - lack of understanding.

In London estimates from installers will be about £600 to £1200. The
higher normally being from the famous names (ADT etc). They will also
include monitoring as part of the price which you will have to pay for
seperately so even those original prices are subsidised to a degree
because of the money they make from monitoring contracts.

To buy the stuff yourself you're looking at around £150.

£150 should just about get you a half decent control panel and keypad.

Don't worry about it Dave, a fool and his money are soon parted. But
then 2 milli pounds isn't a great deal anyway.

That's what I said earlier.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:59:45 +0100, PJ wrote:

Don't worry about it Dave, a fool and his money are soon parted.
But then 2 milli pounds isn't a great deal anyway.

That's what I said earlier.

So much for the degree in electronics then. Though I guess you won't
understand that either.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:28:30 UTC, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:59:45 +0100, PJ wrote:

Don't worry about it Dave, a fool and his money are soon parted.
But then 2 milli pounds isn't a great deal anyway.

That's what I said earlier.

So much for the degree in electronics then. Though I guess you won't
understand that either.

LOL!

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...dump Windows!

In message om, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:11:44 GMT, raden wrote:

More references to this "better and more reliable technology"
please.

And something that can switch pretty well any type of electrical
signal...

Cheaply and reliably, with e.g. inductive loads

Naw, just make it reactive loads.

You're right, but because most of the loads driven by relays on what I
work with are inductive (pumps, gas valves and fans), e.g. inductive
seemed a fair comment to make
--
geoff

" Smokecloak is a unit that is secured to the wall near the ceiling. It
looks like a wall mounted hi-fi speaker.

If the alarm is activated then the unit releases a dense fog into the
room. The fog is similar to the "smoke" used in smoke generation
machines in nightclubs. (The unit can be topped up again and again).


Well yes, what you say is correct but does not prevent break in as very few
would be deterred by a "Smokecloak installed" notice That's assuming that
they can read.

Always liked the South African car hi-jack deterrent. Concealed
flame-thrower fitted underneath the car and activated by the driver if
threatened. Legal in SA as well.Wonder if British gas are thinking of
adapting it for the house market.




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Up to the late 70's it was usual to install door contacts and pressure
mats. Maybe the odd ultrasonic too.

Concealed door contacts are very useful as final exit/initial entry. Still
used for proper pro work.






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Not the case these days. Pet PIR's are now programmed and are no longer
simply a single plane detector.

And dirt cheap... wow they`re almost a fiver now - the last ones I bought
(cased in metal) were about £3.50 !

Adn you expect quality for £3.50 do you?

I would go for dual tech. Say around £35/£40 each. Also fit as few
PIR's/detectors as possible - only leads to false alarms.

Best to use contacts for the home - cheap, simple to fit, reliable and can
be concealed in door frames/window frames.

Door contact for initial entry/final exit door. Remote keypad in hall
Dual tech in the hallway not activated by initial entry and contacts on
downstairs doors/windows.Remote keypad on upstairs landing (if house)

Sorted











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In article ,
"sid" writes:


Not the case these days. Pet PIR's are now programmed and are no longer
simply a single plane detector.

And dirt cheap... wow they`re almost a fiver now - the last ones I bought
(cased in metal) were about £3.50 !

Adn you expect quality for £3.50 do you?

I would go for dual tech. Say around £35/£40 each. Also fit as few
PIR's/detectors as possible - only leads to false alarms.

I fitted quite a lot of dual-techs. If only one of them alarms,
I'm then pretty sure it's false, as it would be most unlikely
a real intruder would trigger only one. This principle applies
to many detector types, but you'll need a panel which can
separately identify many different detectors (either lots of
zones, or ability to separately identify multiple detectors per
zone), and has the intelligence to wait for multiple triggers
before letting loose with the bells (it's a requirement for
any new system capable of having police response nowadays).

I've used a number of makes of dual tech and found them all very
reliable except the Focus ones, which were all so bad (generating
tamper alarms thinking they've been masked), that the supplier
took them all back and refunded me. The others vary in their
range and coverage patterns, and ability/ease to configure.

Best to use contacts for the home - cheap, simple to fit, reliable and can
be concealed in door frames/window frames.

Window contacts are good for reminding you there's still a
window open when you try to set the alarm, but I wouldn't
seriously expect them to detect an intruder.

Door contact for initial entry/final exit door. Remote keypad in hall
Dual tech in the hallway not activated by initial entry and contacts on
downstairs doors/windows.Remote keypad on upstairs landing (if house)

Sorted

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
sid wrote:
Up to the late 70's it was usual to install door contacts and pressure
mats. Maybe the odd ultrasonic too.

Concealed door contacts are very useful as final exit/initial entry.
Still used for proper pro work.

I've got them on all windows and doors. Hard work to fit them neatly so
they don't show, but they've been ultra reliable. Not much to go wrong
with a reed switch. And if correctly fitted, no chance of a false alarm.
Also act as a check if anything's been left open.

Got dual PIRs too, though. And pressure pads. ;-)

--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Window contacts are good for reminding you there's still a
window open when you try to set the alarm, but I wouldn't
seriously expect them to detect an intruder.

I'm not so sure. All the break ins round here seem to involve forcing
either a door or window. A casual thief isn't going to want to crawl
through broken glass etc, and it's not possible to secure an old fashioned
sash window so it can't be forced - given the will.

Might well be a different matter if you live in a remote country house
with lots of valuables, but most break ins in towns are done by 'amateurs'.

--
*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| Concealed door contacts are very useful as final exit/initial
| entry. Still used for proper pro work.
| I've got them on all windows and doors. Hard work to fit them
| neatly so they don't show, but they've been ultra reliable.
| Not much to go wrong with a reed switch. And if correctly
| fitted, no chance of a false alarm.
| Also act as a check if anything's been left open.

I also like the fact that if a window/door is being opened/forced, switches
trigger the alarm before Smashie and Thievie actually get themselves inside
the house.

Owain

"Dave Plowman (News)"
| Andrew Gabriel wrote:
| Window contacts are good for reminding you there's still a
| window open when you try to set the alarm, but I wouldn't
| seriously expect them to detect an intruder.
| I'm not so sure. All the break ins round here seem to involve
| forcing either a door or window. A casual thief isn't going
| to want to crawl through broken glass etc,

Also the first thing many thieves do is to open a door or window to give
themselves an exit route.

Owain

I also like the fact that if a window/door is being opened/forced,
switches
trigger the alarm before Smashie and Thievie actually get themselves
inside
the house.

Yes. If the alarm goes before their leg is inside the house, they'll
probably do a runner. If they've got inside and have got their fingers on
your laptop or car keys before the alarm goes, they're hardly going to drop
them on their way out.

Christian.