On 03/05/2020 19:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the
side of the battery.

Bill


No Bill. They dont have that.
Wrong again.


Mine do. I'm not saying you can't have an intelligent charger without
that (in fact it's an option with most) but it is a system that works well.

https://www.upsbatterycenter.com/blo...tery-chargers/

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...___store=en_us


https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/batte...rgers/8660310/

Ok I'm bored now. But you don't know what you're talking about.

Bill

On 03/05/2020 19:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/05/2020 18:05, mm0fmf wrote:
On 02/05/2020 16:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher explained :
Alternators are good for at least 15A. I wouldn't be surprised if
they can't
mostly manage over 50A if needs be

Oh.. treble that - apparently 45A - 200A is the range...

https://www.powerstream.com/car-battery-faq.htm

But not charge current into the battery.

Remember it is Turnip. Never reads or understands a question.

But he's got a degree in this!

After a working lifetime of dealing with people who have degrees, I've
concluded that they are just as capable of talking ******** as the rest
of us. Furthermore the ones who mention their degree in an attempt to
provide verification for the ******** they are coming out with are
usually spouting absolute total ********.

Bill

Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.


My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for £5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...



Unless you are desperate, keep an eye on the special offers by ALDI and
Lidl. Both offer clones of Ctek smart chargers every now and then for
about £15, a fraction of the Ctek equivalent price.

I have an Aldi one and bought my son in law a Lidl one. They are
functionally much the same and do the job.



--
https://www.unitedway.org/our-impact...an-trafficking

On 03/05/2020 15:50:11, williamwright wrote:
On 03/05/2020 09:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/05/2020 08:52, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
williamwright was thinking very hard :
You are forgetting the internal resistance of the battery. The fact
is that the most charge a car will give a flat battery is around
30A, it it drops off very rapidly. The high alternator output is to
support accessories.

Correct! I have taken the trouble to actually measure it and have
seen 20 to maybe 30amps delivered by a 130amp alternator, into a near
flat battery. That level of charge current rapidly declines as the
flat battery gains in voltage.

I have battery chargers that will dump full permitted current into a
battery until it is =99% full.


Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the side
of the battery.

Which are obligatory for the fast charging of lithium batteries but I
have never seen one for a lead acid.

On 03/05/2020 20:02:45, charles wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/05/2020 15:50, williamwright wrote:
On 03/05/2020 09:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/05/2020 08:52, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
williamwright was thinking very hard :
You are forgetting the internal resistance of the battery. The fact
is that the most charge a car will give a flat battery is around
30A, it it drops off very rapidly. The high alternator output is to
support accessories.

Correct! I have taken the trouble to actually measure it and have
seen 20 to maybe 30amps delivered by a 130amp alternator, into a near
flat battery. That level of charge current rapidly declines as the
flat battery gains in voltage.

I have battery chargers that will dump full permitted current into a
battery until it is =99% full.


Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the
side of the battery.

Bill


No Bill. They dont have that.
Wrong again.

my one does. It displays temperature along with battery voltage & charge
current, If it thinks the temperature is too high, it turns on an internal
fan.

Are you seriously suggesting that the internal fan is switched on and
off by a temperature sensor strapped to the battery?

If so, that would be a first.

On 04/05/2020 02:22:03, williamwright wrote:
On 03/05/2020 19:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the
side of the battery.

Bill


No Bill. They dont have that.
Wrong again.


Mine do. I'm not saying you can't have an intelligent charger without
that (in fact it's an option with most) but it is a system that works well.

https://www.upsbatterycenter.com/blo...tery-chargers/

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...___store=en_us



https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/batte...rgers/8660310/

Ok I'm bored now. But you don't know what you're talking about.

Bill

All of which are intended for a lithium battery.

The last link even mentions suitability for a CX Series, which is a
Lithium Ion rechargeable battery.

In article ,
charles wrote:
I fitted an alternator to my Anglia - in which I took part in motor
rallies The extra load on the driving belt broke the pressed metal take
off pulley. Luckily Ford made a competition version which was a casting.

Not the other way round, Charles? Most pulleys I've seen are steel
pressings rather than castings.

--
*If PROGRESS is for advancement, what does that make CONGRESS mean?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Voltage at alternator can go high enough at 150+ A to render extremely
think cable not necessary.

What are you on today? ;-)

--
*I never drink water because of the disgusting things that fish do in it..

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the side
of the battery.

Bill


No Bill. They dont have that.
Wrong again.

Fast chargers - the type a garage will have on a trolley - do measure
battery temperature.

No need on a domestic one. Few would have the space to store a very high
output charger. Let alone the need for one.

--
*It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the side
of the battery.

Which are obligatory for the fast charging of lithium batteries but I
have never seen one for a lead acid.

They are used on the trolley mounted fast chargers you'll see in a
secondhand car dealer's lot. But never seen a domestic car battery charger
with one. A large domestic charger might have a peak output of 15 amps or
so, and no need for a sensor at that sort of current, which will regulate
down as the battery charges anyway.

Wonder how a 150 amp car alternator gets away without sensing battery
temperature? ;-)

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
I fitted an alternator to my Anglia - in which I took part in motor
rallies The extra load on the driving belt broke the pressed metal take
off pulley. Luckily Ford made a competition version which was a casting.

Not the other way round, Charles? Most pulleys I've seen are steel
pressings rather than castings.

Exactly as I said. Ford competition grade was a casting.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 04/05/2020 10:54:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the side
of the battery.

Which are obligatory for the fast charging of lithium batteries but I
have never seen one for a lead acid.

They are used on the trolley mounted fast chargers you'll see in a
secondhand car dealer's lot. But never seen a domestic car battery charger
with one. A large domestic charger might have a peak output of 15 amps or
so, and no need for a sensor at that sort of current, which will regulate
down as the battery charges anyway.

Wonder how a 150 amp car alternator gets away without sensing battery
temperature? ;-)

I suspect for a battery in an air flow its not so critical. What I have
noticed is charging voltage as per my instrument cluster reduces
alternator voltage on a hot day. I wonder if the alternator has an air
temperature sensor.

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
I fitted an alternator to my Anglia - in which I took part in motor
rallies The extra load on the driving belt broke the pressed metal
take off pulley. Luckily Ford made a competition version which was a
casting.

Not the other way round, Charles? Most pulleys I've seen are steel
pressings rather than castings.

Exactly as I said. Ford competition grade was a casting.

Seems odd. A casting is rarely as strong as a pressing, like for like.

--
*Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Wonder how a 150 amp car alternator gets away without sensing battery
temperature? ;-)

I suspect for a battery in an air flow its not so critical.

Many are well out of the airflow these days.

--
*Whatever kind of look you were going for, you missed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/05/2020 12:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

There is no pint in having a 150A capable alternator to do THAT

Aren't such heavy duty alternators there for heated windscreens, bum
warmers, memory seats etc?

heated seats?

Brilliant devices. Work near instantly. Unlike the car heater.


Quite essential in places like Finland and Sweden, but
possibly a tad overkill for large parts of the UK.

On 03/05/2020 10:47, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Andy Burns
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

There is no pint in having a 150A capable alternator to do THAT

Aren't such heavy duty alternators there for heated windscreens, bum
warmers, memory seats etc?

I hope the bum warmer in my car seats is not thinking of running at
1800W. That'd be like sitting on an electric fire.


The heated 'throw' that I use when it gets nippy but not
enough to mess about with the heating has 6 settings
where 6 is fast warm up, and it does, very quickly.

It is only 100 watts.

On 03/05/2020 12:47, charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated on Saturday :
So you are guessing it charges a low battery at 140 amps? ;-)

No, there would need to be a rather large difference in voltage between
the alternator and battery, to achieve that and as the battery attains
a charge, its voltage rises quite rapidly.

I would suggest nearer an initial 20amps, which would rapidly fall to
maybe 3 to 6 amps. A flat to full charge time when being driven, can
require 6 to 10 hours of being driven.

6 to 10 hours driving is far more than many cars ever get.

Which is why it is always best to put such a battery on a mains charger
for 24 hours, if at all possible.

Given most cars these days have plenty alternator capacity, there really
shouldn't be the need to ever charge the battery externally. Unless the
car is not used for such a time as the battery goes flat.

It's now 7 weeks since I used my car.


Hope you have been starting it and running it for 30 mins every
week or so.

On 02/05/2020 19:44, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Yuasa recommended rate is only 5A

Oh dear. Yuasa batteries are a couple of ampere hours

95 Ah in this case and 850 CCA

larger battery for a 2.0 petrol than the previous 3.0 diesel, as it's a
start/stop car.

Isn't there a setting so can disable stop-start ?.

Sometimes it is more trouble than its worth, depending
on your usage.

On 04/05/2020 02:32, williamwright wrote:
On 03/05/2020 19:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/05/2020 18:05, mm0fmf wrote:
On 02/05/2020 16:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher explained :
Alternators are good for at least 15A. I wouldn't be surprised if
they can't
mostly manage over 50A if needs be

Oh.. treble that - apparently 45A - 200A is the range...

https://www.powerstream.com/car-battery-faq.htm

But not charge current into the battery.

Remember it is Turnip. Never reads or understands a question.

But he's got a degree in this!

After a working lifetime of dealing with people who have degrees, I've
concluded that they are just as capable of talking ******** as the rest
of us. Furthermore the ones who mention their degree in an attempt to
provide verification for the ******** they are coming out with are
usually spouting absolute total ********.

Bill

+1

Intelligent idiots, who are convinced that world will collapse
when they are no longer here. Graveyards are full of them and
the world just carries on.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 03/05/2020 12:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

There is no pint in having a 150A capable alternator to do THAT

Aren't such heavy duty alternators there for heated windscreens, bum
warmers, memory seats etc?

heated seats?

Brilliant devices. Work near instantly. Unlike the car heater.


Quite essential in places like Finland and Sweden, but
possibly a tad overkill for large parts of the UK.

Ever had a car with them?

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Fredxx wrote:

I suspect for a battery in an air flow its not so critical.

Many are well out of the airflow these days.

Like, in the boot.

In article , Andrew
wrote:
On 03/05/2020 12:47, charles wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated on Saturday :
So you are guessing it charges a low battery at 140 amps? ;-)

No, there would need to be a rather large difference in voltage
between the alternator and battery, to achieve that and as the
battery attains a charge, its voltage rises quite rapidly.

I would suggest nearer an initial 20amps, which would rapidly fall to
maybe 3 to 6 amps. A flat to full charge time when being driven, can
require 6 to 10 hours of being driven.

6 to 10 hours driving is far more than many cars ever get.

Which is why it is always best to put such a battery on a mains
charger for 24 hours, if at all possible.

Given most cars these days have plenty alternator capacity, there
really shouldn't be the need to ever charge the battery externally.
Unless the car is not used for such a time as the battery goes flat.

It's now 7 weeks since I used my car.


Hope you have been starting it and running it for 30 mins every week or
so.

No, I've been following the manufacturer's instructions and disconnected
the battery

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

posted
On Sunday, 3 May 2020 07:23:49 UTC+1, Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
The metal enclosure is riveted together so I can't open it up. Anyway

A drill bit would remove those in no time.

IMLE the failure mode for devices based on a transformer is nearly
always shorting or burning out of the windings which can't be fixed.

It can be any of the parts, including just a bad connection.

Thanks to you and Rod for these suggestions. It was a bad internal
connection to the ammeter.

I was a bit reluctant to drill the rivets out in case I damaged an
internal component in so doing, but then I thought - well if I don't
open it up I'm going to throw it out anyway, so what the hell.

--
Algernon

Andrew wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

it's a start/stop car.

Isn't there a setting so can disable stop-start ?.

There is, but it turns back on every time you turn on the ignition,
there may be an OBD-II setting to permanently disable it.

Sometimes it is more trouble than its worth, depending on your usage.

I'm fairly used to it now, it did initially annoy me with its
inconsistency, such as stopping when you come to a halt, then restarting
as soon as you take your foot off the brake ... I don't mind that so
much now that I also know that taking my foot off the brake doesn't turn
off the brake lights anyway, so I leave my foot on the brake for short
stops.

On 04/05/2020 13:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Not the other way round, Charles? Most pulleys I've seen are steel
pressings rather than castings.

Exactly as I said. Ford competition grade was a casting.

Seems odd. A casting is rarely as strong as a pressing, like for like.

Probably the casting was much thicker metal.

Bill

On 04/05/2020 10:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Voltage at alternator can go high enough at 150+ A to render extremely
think cable not necessary.

What are you on today? ;-)

He's confused between amps and watts.

Bill

On 04/05/2020 08:46, Fredxx wrote:

my one does. It displays temperature along with battery voltage & charge
current,Â* If it thinks the temperature is too high, it turns on an
internal
fan.

Are you seriously suggesting that the internal fan is switched on and
off by a temperature sensor strapped to the battery?

If so, that would be a first.



Charles is on about a different thing altogether.

Bill

On 04/05/2020 08:47, Fredxx wrote:

https://www.upsbatterycenter.com/blo...tery-chargers/


https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...___store=en_us



https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/batte...rgers/8660310/

Ok I'm bored now. But you don't know what you're talking about.

Bill

All of which are intended for a lithium battery.

The last link even mentions suitability for a CX Series, which is a
Lithium Ion rechargeable battery.

Nevertheless the chargers in my motorhome have temp sensors strapped to
the side of the batteries, which are ordinary deep discharge lead acid
types.

Bill

On 04/05/2020 10:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the side
of the battery.

Bill


No Bill. They dont have that.
Wrong again.

Fast chargers - the type a garage will have on a trolley - do measure
battery temperature.

My motorhome chargers are actually sold mainly for yachts. They each
charge at 15A (at 24V) and check battery condition by voltage and also
by temperature. They will fully charge 100Ah batteries in half a day.
Eventually they drop to a maintenance charge of about 100mA.

Bill

On 04/05/2020 10:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the side
of the battery.

Which are obligatory for the fast charging of lithium batteries but I
have never seen one for a lead acid.

They are used on the trolley mounted fast chargers you'll see in a
secondhand car dealer's lot. But never seen a domestic car battery charger
with one. A large domestic charger might have a peak output of 15 amps or
so, and no need for a sensor at that sort of current, which will regulate
down as the battery charges anyway.

Wonder how a 150 amp car alternator gets away without sensing battery
temperature? ;-)

It doesn't. Voltage regulation means the charge tapers off. This is why
it takes a ridiculous length of time to fully charge a car battery.

Bill

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Fredxx wrote:

I suspect for a battery in an air flow its not so critical.

Many are well out of the airflow these days.

Like, in the boot.

are they still there?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 13:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Not the other way round, Charles? Most pulleys I've seen are steel
pressings rather than castings.

Exactly as I said. Ford competition grade was a casting.

Seems odd. A casting is rarely as strong as a pressing, like for like.

Probably the casting was much thicker metal.

I suppose an early car only had the one pulley so how much space it took
up not a problem.

But I really can't remember seeing a cast pulley on any car - even more so
if a performance part where weight is important.

--
*Why is 'abbreviation' such a long word?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Fredxx wrote:

I suspect for a battery in an air flow its not so critical.

Many are well out of the airflow these days.

Like, in the boot.

are they still there?

Makes sense to keep it away from the heat of the engine? And helps with
weight distribution?

--
*On the other hand, you have different fingers*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 10:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the side
of the battery.

Bill


No Bill. They dont have that.
Wrong again.

Fast chargers - the type a garage will have on a trolley - do measure
battery temperature.

My motorhome chargers are actually sold mainly for yachts. They each
charge at 15A (at 24V) and check battery condition by voltage and also
by temperature. They will fully charge 100Ah batteries in half a day.
Eventually they drop to a maintenance charge of about 100mA.

It does make sense if you wish to re-charge the battery as quickly as
possible. I've just fixed the charger on a camper van. Nothing that
sophisticated there. ;-)

--
*Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 10:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Yes, intelligent chargers with a temperature sensor strapped to the
side of the battery.

Which are obligatory for the fast charging of lithium batteries but I
have never seen one for a lead acid.

They are used on the trolley mounted fast chargers you'll see in a
secondhand car dealer's lot. But never seen a domestic car battery
charger with one. A large domestic charger might have a peak output of
15 amps or so, and no need for a sensor at that sort of current, which
will regulate down as the battery charges anyway.

Wonder how a 150 amp car alternator gets away without sensing battery
temperature? ;-)

It doesn't. Voltage regulation means the charge tapers off. This is why
it takes a ridiculous length of time to fully charge a car battery.

Why I asked here.

The little Lidl £13 charger with a peak output of about 4 amps actually
charges a battery faster than my older Halfords one which claims 11 amps.
I assume by keeping the charge rate at maximum until the battery is full.

--
*No I haven't stolen it , I'm just a **** driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 04 May 2020 16:16:21 +0100, charles wrote:

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Fredxx wrote:

I suspect for a battery in an air flow its not so critical.

Many are well out of the airflow these days.

Like, in the boot.

are they still there?

On an old Mini, yes.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 13:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Not the other way round, Charles? Most pulleys I've seen are steel
pressings rather than castings.

Exactly as I said. Ford competition grade was a casting.

Seems odd. A casting is rarely as strong as a pressing, like for like.

Probably the casting was much thicker metal.

I suppose an early car only had the one pulley so how much space it took
up not a problem.

But I really can't remember seeing a cast pulley on any car - even more so
if a performance part where weight is important.

I suspect strength was the most important. It had a smaller diameter.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 04/05/2020 16:16, charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Fredxx wrote:

I suspect for a battery in an air flow its not so critical.

Many are well out of the airflow these days.

Like, in the boot.

are they still there?

Mine is
Jaguar XF.


--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
€“ H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

On 04/05/2020 15:48, williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 10:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Voltage at alternator can go high enough at 150+ A to render extremely
think cable not necessary.

What are you on today? ;-)

He's confused between amps and watts.

Bill
No Bill. EMF or voltage is entirely down to rotational speed times flux
density. Flux can be varied by adjusting field coil current so the
alternator will deliver whatever volts it needs to do to push 150A out


--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
€“ H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

On 04/05/2020 14:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 03/05/2020 12:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

There is no pint in having a 150A capable alternator to do THAT

Aren't such heavy duty alternators there for heated windscreens, bum
warmers, memory seats etc?

heated seats?

Brilliant devices. Work near instantly. Unlike the car heater.


Quite essential in places like Finland and Sweden, but
possibly a tad overkill for large parts of the UK.

Ever had a car with them?

My son's car has them. My wife says it makes her feel as if she's wet
herself!

Andy