On 04/05/2020 18:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/05/2020 15:48, williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 10:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Voltage at alternator can go high enough at 150+ A to render extremely
think cable not necessary.

What are you on today? ;-)

He's confused between amps and watts.

Bill
No Bill. EMFÂ* or voltage is entirely down to rotational speed times flux
density. Flux can be varied by adjusting field coil current so the
alternator will deliver whatever voltsÂ* it needs to do to push 150A out


A lovely example of bull**** baffles brains, or 'obfuscation'. What you
did was trot out a lot of fairly obvious but scarcely relevant guff to
hide the fact that you were talking ********. Everyone can see through
this sort of thing you know. Try to remember that amongst the members of
this group there are people who have had a working lifetime of detecting
bull****.

Bill

On 04/05/2020 16:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

My motorhome chargers are actually sold mainly for yachts. They each
charge at 15A (at 24V) and check battery condition by voltage and also
by temperature. They will fully charge 100Ah batteries in half a day.
Eventually they drop to a maintenance charge of about 100mA.

It does make sense if you wish to re-charge the battery as quickly as
possible. I've just fixed the charger on a camper van. Nothing that
sophisticated there. ;-)

The thing with yachts is that sometimes they are in the harbour for
quite short periods, and so there's a rush to get the batteries charged.
The yachtsmen don't like to run the engine unless they have to, and
wind/solar don't hack it. So the chargers are designed to shove the
absolute max into the battery without causing damage. My 15A chargers
are regarded as 'small piddling things' by people with big yachts, where
30A at 24V per battery set is more usual. I have two 24V battery sets
and two 15A chargers. (the aux 12V supply is charged by a 24/14V
converter. The vehicle's 24V circuit is only charged by the alternator,
but is isolated when the vehicle is stationary.)

Bill

Vir Campestris wrote:

My son's car has them. My wife says it makes her feel as if she's wet
herself!

It's not so much the bum warming, as the lower back warming, that I
appreciate

On 04/05/2020 16:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The little Lidl £13 charger with a peak output of about 4 amps actually
charges a battery faster than my older Halfords one which claims 11 amps.
I assume by keeping the charge rate at maximum until the battery is full.


I have a 10A charger that has a rather low no-load voltage of 13.3V, so
it starts at a low rate and stops when the battery is only half charged.
The only way it produces 10A is by connecting it to a 6V battery! (in
the few seconds before it cuts off). In other words it's a pile of
****e. I ought to chuck it really; don't know why I don't because it's
use to neither man nor beast. It's red with a 10A meter on the front.

I used to have a little encapsulated charger that was rated at 2A and
actually charged at around 2.2A all night. I never checked but I bet the
output was about 15.5V. I once left it on for a weekend and the battery
was bubbling on the Monday morning. This was a long time ago. I'm
talking about the days when I had to charge the battery every night in
winter because I was driving home from college and then school with the
lights and wipers on.

Bill

On Mon, 04 May 2020 21:48:02 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Vir Campestris wrote:

My son's car has them. My wife says it makes her feel as if she's wet
herself!

It's not so much the bum warming, as the lower back warming, that I
appreciate

Me too. Cold morniing and the back is stiff. When I used to have to get
in the car and go to work, it was brilliant.

And I've never paid for them. I ordered a specific set of options as a
factory build, and it turns out that forces a particular control panel
that includes seat heating.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 04/05/2020 18:19:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/05/2020 15:48, williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 10:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Voltage at alternator can go high enough at 150+ A to render extremely
think cable not necessary.

What are you on today? ;-)

He's confused between amps and watts.

Bill
No Bill. EMFÂ* or voltage is entirely down to rotational speed times flux
density. Flux can be varied by adjusting field coil current so the
alternator will deliver whatever voltsÂ* it needs to do to push 150A out

In recent years I have not come accross a voltage regulator external to
the alternator, or a sense wire connected to the battery.

If you can find such a car you're doing very well and something you
would need if you ever intended to overcome voltage drop between the
alternator and battery.

Would you care to provide an example to backup your strange claim?

On 04/05/2020 21:56:45, williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 16:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The little Lidl £13 charger with a peak output of about 4 amps actually
charges a battery faster than my older Halfords one which claims 11 amps.
I assume by keeping the charge rate at maximum until the battery is full.


I have a 10A charger that has a rather low no-load voltage of 13.3V, so
it starts at a low rate and stops when the battery is only half charged.
The only way it produces 10A is by connecting it to a 6V battery! (in
the few seconds before it cuts off). In other words it's a pile of
****e. I ought to chuck it really; don't know why I don't because it's
use to neither man nor beast. It's red with a 10A meter on the front.

I have a 6V charger that has similar behaviour. However if it is
connected to a 6V Lead Acid battery it performs as a smart charger,
where it charges at a relatively low current up to 7V and then falls
back to a float charge. It has LEDs to indicate the charging process.

So far the batteries have lasted nearly 5 years, so must be doing
something right.

On 04/05/2020 21:37, williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 18:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/05/2020 15:48, williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 10:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Voltage at alternator can go high enough at 150+ A to render extremely
think cable not necessary.

What are you on today? ;-)

He's confused between amps and watts.

Bill
No Bill. EMFÂ* or voltage is entirely down to rotational speed times
flux density. Flux can be varied by adjusting field coil current so
the alternator will deliver whatever voltsÂ* it needs to do to push
150A out


A lovely example of bull**** baffles brains, or 'obfuscation'. What you
did was trot out a lot of fairly obvious but scarcely relevant guff to
hide the fact that you were talking ********. Everyone can see through
this sort of thing you know. Try to remember that amongst the members of
this group there are people who have had a working lifetime of detecting
bull****.

Bill
Bill Don't be silly. Look it up.

You are making a fool of yourself.

#

--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
williamwright wrote:
On 04/05/2020 13:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Not the other way round, Charles? Most pulleys I've seen are
steel pressings rather than castings.

Exactly as I said. Ford competition grade was a casting.

Seems odd. A casting is rarely as strong as a pressing, like for
like.

Probably the casting was much thicker metal.

I suppose an early car only had the one pulley so how much space it
took up not a problem.

But I really can't remember seeing a cast pulley on any car - even
more so if a performance part where weight is important.

I suspect strength was the most important. It had a smaller diameter.

The alternator runs at a higher speed than a dynamo, so needs a different
pulley anyway. Although not sure a dynamo one would fit an alternator
shaft.

--
*TEAMWORK...means never having to take all the blame yourself *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 04 May 2020 16:16:21 +0100, charles wrote:

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Fredxx wrote:

I suspect for a battery in an air flow its not so critical.

Many are well out of the airflow these days.

Like, in the boot.

are they still there?

On an old Mini, yes.

In the front of my car. But the engine is in the middle. ;-)

--
*Why do the two "sanction"s (noun and verb) mean opposites?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Vir Campestris wrote:

My son's car has them. My wife says it makes her feel as if she's wet
herself!

It's not so much the bum warming, as the lower back warming, that I
appreciate

I live in Central London, so hardly the coldest part of the country. This
car is the first I've had with heated seats. And now simply wouldn't be
without them.

One of the things you only miss after having it.

--
*The e-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
I used to have a little encapsulated charger that was rated at 2A and
actually charged at around 2.2A all night. I never checked but I bet the
output was about 15.5V. I once left it on for a weekend and the battery
was bubbling on the Monday morning. This was a long time ago. I'm
talking about the days when I had to charge the battery every night in
winter because I was driving home from college and then school with the
lights and wipers on.

You need the Lidl one. About £13. Small enough to fit in a large pocket.
Charges full blast until the battery is full, then changes automatically
to a maintenance charge which can be left on indefinitely. It's got enough
output to charge a 70 amp hour battery overnight.

--
*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 03 May 2020 10:47:29 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Andy Burns
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

There is no pint in having a 150A capable alternator to do THAT

Aren't such heavy duty alternators there for heated windscreens, bum
warmers, memory seats etc?

I hope the bum warmer in my car seats is not thinking of running at
1800W. That'd be like sitting on an electric fire.


Reminds me of my Dad's reaction when the 6v battery under the driver's
seat of an Austin 12 shorted.

My battery was fine.


--
AnthonyL

Why do scientists need to BELIEVE in anything?

On Sun, 03 May 2020 12:15:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.


My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for £5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...

Both Lidl and Aldi do a rather nice SMPS one for about £14. Aldi may have
it available online at all times - Lidl as a special offer a few times a
year. Similar in spec to a Ctek at 4 times the price. Much smaller than a
traditional charger, and better too.


I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.

I haven't turned my engine over for several weeks. I'd like a
starting handle to get a bit of oil spread around first.


--
AnthonyL

Why do scientists need to BELIEVE in anything?

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2020 12:15:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.


My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for £5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...

Both Lidl and Aldi do a rather nice SMPS one for about £14. Aldi may have
it available online at all times - Lidl as a special offer a few times a
year. Similar in spec to a Ctek at 4 times the price. Much smaller than a
traditional charger, and better too.


I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.

Have you got a DVM? Check the battery voltage?

I haven't turned my engine over for several weeks. I'd like a
starting handle to get a bit of oil spread around first.

It'll be fine after only such a short time.

--
*It ain't the size, it's... er... no, it IS ..the size.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 03 May 2020 12:15:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.


My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for £5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...

Both Lidl and Aldi do a rather nice SMPS one for about £14. Aldi may have
it available online at all times - Lidl as a special offer a few times a
year. Similar in spec to a Ctek at 4 times the price. Much smaller than a
traditional charger, and better too.


I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.

I haven't turned my engine over for several weeks. I'd like a
starting handle to get a bit of oil spread around first.

You can get the same result by hitting the engine start for a very brief
time
a few times without hitting it for long enough to actually start the engine.

On Wed, 6 May 2020 06:01:25 +1000, Joshua Snow, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

06:01 already, you trolling senile cretin? ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!

--
Marland answering senile Rodent's statement, "I don't leak":
"That¢s because so much **** and ****e emanates from your gob that there is
nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse
and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a ******."
Message-ID:

On Tuesday, 5 May 2020 13:09:34 UTC+1, AnthonyL wrote:

I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.

I haven't turned my engine over for several weeks. I'd like a
starting handle to get a bit of oil spread around first.

those are hazardous. Ladas & 2CVs were the last cars with them sold here afaik


NT

AnthonyL wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2020 12:15:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.

My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for £5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...
Both Lidl and Aldi do a rather nice SMPS one for about £14. Aldi may have
it available online at all times - Lidl as a special offer a few times a
year. Similar in spec to a Ctek at 4 times the price. Much smaller than a
traditional charger, and better too.


I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.

I haven't turned my engine over for several weeks. I'd like a
starting handle to get a bit of oil spread around first.



Is the "standby" symbol #15 lit ?

https://manualsbrain.com/en/manuals/796066/?page=4

Paul

On Tue, 05 May 2020 14:24:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2020 12:15:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.


My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for £5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...

Both Lidl and Aldi do a rather nice SMPS one for about £14. Aldi may have
it available online at all times - Lidl as a special offer a few times a
year. Similar in spec to a Ctek at 4 times the price. Much smaller than a
traditional charger, and better too.


I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.

Have you got a DVM? Check the battery voltage?


Thought I'd do some testing today.

The Aldi and my DVM show about the same voltage with .2v.

The initial reading was 12.14v and after leaving the Aldi charger on
for a while it got up to a max of 12.7 though the number of bars
fluctuated around 3-4 (out of 5).

I have my neighbours Halford's Smart charger and when I put that on
the voltage went up to 13.68 (DVM). When I disconnected the charge
the voltage dropped within a minute to 12.89. The Aldi still showed
around 3-4 bars but the same voltage.

Now the battery is 10yrs old so maybe the Aldi is telling a truth, and
that it cannot get a full 100% charge. But nonetheless it seems to be
doing a job at charging even if not getting to the ~15v max it's spec
says it produces.


--
AnthonyL

Why do scientists need to BELIEVE in anything?

On Wed, 06 May 2020 18:38:25 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Tue, 05 May 2020 14:24:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2020 12:15:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.


My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for £5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...

Both Lidl and Aldi do a rather nice SMPS one for about £14. Aldi may have
it available online at all times - Lidl as a special offer a few times a
year. Similar in spec to a Ctek at 4 times the price. Much smaller than a
traditional charger, and better too.


I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.

Have you got a DVM? Check the battery voltage?


Thought I'd do some testing today.

The Aldi and my DVM show about the same voltage with .2v.

The initial reading was 12.14v and after leaving the Aldi charger on
for a while it got up to a max of 12.7 though the number of bars
fluctuated around 3-4 (out of 5).

I have my neighbours Halford's Smart charger and when I put that on
the voltage went up to 13.68 (DVM). When I disconnected the charge
the voltage dropped within a minute to 12.89. The Aldi still showed
around 3-4 bars but the same voltage.

Now the battery is 10yrs old so maybe the Aldi is telling a truth, and
that it cannot get a full 100% charge. But nonetheless it seems to be
doing a job at charging even if not getting to the ~15v max it's spec
says it produces.


Oh and to add that if I put the multimeter in series to measure
current the Aldi didn't think anything was connected.


--
AnthonyL

Why do scientists need to BELIEVE in anything?

On Wed, 06 May 2020 09:04:18 -0400, Paul
wrote:

AnthonyL wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2020 12:15:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.

My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for £5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...
Both Lidl and Aldi do a rather nice SMPS one for about £14. Aldi may have
it available online at all times - Lidl as a special offer a few times a
year. Similar in spec to a Ctek at 4 times the price. Much smaller than a
traditional charger, and better too.


I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.

I haven't turned my engine over for several weeks. I'd like a
starting handle to get a bit of oil spread around first.



Is the "standby" symbol #15 lit ?

https://manualsbrain.com/en/manuals/796066/?page=4


Symbols on mine nearly but don't quite match and I don't have a
"standby mode" whatever that is.


--
AnthonyL

Why do scientists need to BELIEVE in anything?

On Wednesday, 6 May 2020 19:38:27 UTC+1, AnthonyL wrote:
On Tue, 05 May 2020 14:24:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2020 12:15:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.


My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for �5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...

Both Lidl and Aldi do a rather nice SMPS one for about �14. Aldi may have
it available online at all times - Lidl as a special offer a few times a
year. Similar in spec to a Ctek at 4 times the price. Much smaller than a
traditional charger, and better too.


I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.

Have you got a DVM? Check the battery voltage?


Thought I'd do some testing today.

The Aldi and my DVM show about the same voltage with .2v.

The initial reading was 12.14v and after leaving the Aldi charger on
for a while it got up to a max of 12.7 though the number of bars
fluctuated around 3-4 (out of 5).

I have my neighbours Halford's Smart charger and when I put that on
the voltage went up to 13.68 (DVM). When I disconnected the charge
the voltage dropped within a minute to 12.89. The Aldi still showed
around 3-4 bars but the same voltage.

Now the battery is 10yrs old so maybe the Aldi is telling a truth, and
that it cannot get a full 100% charge. But nonetheless it seems to be
doing a job at charging even if not getting to the ~15v max it's spec
says it produces.

13.68 is a healthy charging voltage. 12.7 is low.


NT

AnthonyL wrote:
On Wed, 06 May 2020 18:38:25 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Tue, 05 May 2020 14:24:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2020 12:15:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.

My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for £5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...
Both Lidl and Aldi do a rather nice SMPS one for about £14. Aldi may have
it available online at all times - Lidl as a special offer a few times a
year. Similar in spec to a Ctek at 4 times the price. Much smaller than a
traditional charger, and better too.

I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.
Have you got a DVM? Check the battery voltage?

Thought I'd do some testing today.

The Aldi and my DVM show about the same voltage with .2v.

The initial reading was 12.14v and after leaving the Aldi charger on
for a while it got up to a max of 12.7 though the number of bars
fluctuated around 3-4 (out of 5).

I have my neighbours Halford's Smart charger and when I put that on
the voltage went up to 13.68 (DVM). When I disconnected the charge
the voltage dropped within a minute to 12.89. The Aldi still showed
around 3-4 bars but the same voltage.

Now the battery is 10yrs old so maybe the Aldi is telling a truth, and
that it cannot get a full 100% charge. But nonetheless it seems to be
doing a job at charging even if not getting to the ~15v max it's spec
says it produces.


Oh and to add that if I put the multimeter in series to measure
current the Aldi didn't think anything was connected.

Maybe the output of the Aldi is defective ?

Do you have any other batteries you can test it on ?

If the Halford one can show it up like that, it
sounds like more than just the battery at fault.

*******

When measuring current with the multimeter, you
have to plug the leads into different holes.
There is a specific hole for current, to one
side of the volts hole. Even if the meter is
not powered, the shunt from "Current In" to "Common"
will still be present and conducting.

--------X 20A COM X-------------- === in series with battery,
| | NOT across battery!
+---x- 0.01 ohm -x---+ Resistor stays
^ ^ in circuit, even
| | if meter knob is
+-- meter ---+ rotated.
measures
drop here

You can see in this sample schematic (for my meter), that
the 0.01 ohm shunt is not switched out by the rotary knob.

https://i.postimg.cc/nhwBQJ89/multimeter-schematic.gif

If the multimeter fuse is blown, the "0.01 ohm" path
will be an open circuit.

Aldi ---- red --------X 20A COM X--------- Battery -------+
| | (+) (-) |
+- 0.01ohm -+ |
|
Aldi --- black ---------------------------------------------+


You would also have to make sure the electrical
connections are reliable, as some circuits, if
the path was interrupted for only a short time,
they would notice that.

Also, if you have *two* multimeters, you can use
one multimeter on "ohms", to verify the current flow
path from 20A to COM is "always on". Or, if you've
blown the fuse, the second meter can tell you if
the path is "always open" due to the fuse going on it.

I've known a few people to have blown the fuse on
the ammeter part. Since I never ever use the ammeter
holes on mine, they're mint :-) I use the clamp-on
DC ammeter for safety reasons. The clamp-on has
no duty cycle limit, for one thing. The clamp-on meter
uses the magnetic field around the wire, as a proxy.

Two meters make great pals. Especially when they
read consistently (agree on stuff).

https://i.postimg.cc/kg6nvC3r/meter.jpg

Paul

On Thu, 07 May 2020 09:41:26 -0400, Paul
wrote:

AnthonyL wrote:
On Wed, 06 May 2020 18:38:25 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Tue, 05 May 2020 14:24:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2020 12:15:50 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Fredxx posted
There is very little literature on battery charging, of when a charging
device might switch from constant current to constant voltage at
different initial charging currents.

My car battery charger, bought second-hand forty years ago for £5, has
just packed up. Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement? Doesn't
have to be portable, just plug into the mains and recharge a flat car or
lawnmower battery. Preferably for the same sort of price I paid for the
last one ...
Both Lidl and Aldi do a rather nice SMPS one for about £14. Aldi may have
it available online at all times - Lidl as a special offer a few times a
year. Similar in spec to a Ctek at 4 times the price. Much smaller than a
traditional charger, and better too.

I bought the Aldi one a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how well it's
working as it doesn't seem to show full charge even after being left
on for the best part of 2 days.
Have you got a DVM? Check the battery voltage?

Thought I'd do some testing today.

The Aldi and my DVM show about the same voltage with .2v.

The initial reading was 12.14v and after leaving the Aldi charger on
for a while it got up to a max of 12.7 though the number of bars
fluctuated around 3-4 (out of 5).

I have my neighbours Halford's Smart charger and when I put that on
the voltage went up to 13.68 (DVM). When I disconnected the charge
the voltage dropped within a minute to 12.89. The Aldi still showed
around 3-4 bars but the same voltage.

Now the battery is 10yrs old so maybe the Aldi is telling a truth, and
that it cannot get a full 100% charge. But nonetheless it seems to be
doing a job at charging even if not getting to the ~15v max it's spec
says it produces.


Oh and to add that if I put the multimeter in series to measure
current the Aldi didn't think anything was connected.

Maybe the output of the Aldi is defective ?

Do you have any other batteries you can test it on ?

If the Halford one can show it up like that, it
sounds like more than just the battery at fault.

*******

When measuring current with the multimeter, you
have to plug the leads into different holes.
There is a specific hole for current, to one
side of the volts hole. Even if the meter is
not powered, the shunt from "Current In" to "Common"
will still be present and conducting.

--------X 20A COM X-------------- === in series with battery,
| | NOT across battery!
+---x- 0.01 ohm -x---+ Resistor stays
^ ^ in circuit, even
| | if meter knob is
+-- meter ---+ rotated.
measures
drop here

You can see in this sample schematic (for my meter), that
the 0.01 ohm shunt is not switched out by the rotary knob.

https://i.postimg.cc/nhwBQJ89/multimeter-schematic.gif

If the multimeter fuse is blown, the "0.01 ohm" path
will be an open circuit.

Aldi ---- red --------X 20A COM X--------- Battery -------+
| | (+) (-) |
+- 0.01ohm -+ |
|
Aldi --- black ---------------------------------------------+


You would also have to make sure the electrical
connections are reliable, as some circuits, if
the path was interrupted for only a short time,
they would notice that.

Also, if you have *two* multimeters, you can use
one multimeter on "ohms", to verify the current flow
path from 20A to COM is "always on". Or, if you've
blown the fuse, the second meter can tell you if
the path is "always open" due to the fuse going on it.

I've known a few people to have blown the fuse on
the ammeter part. Since I never ever use the ammeter
holes on mine, they're mint :-) I use the clamp-on
DC ammeter for safety reasons. The clamp-on has
no duty cycle limit, for one thing. The clamp-on meter
uses the magnetic field around the wire, as a proxy.

Two meters make great pals. Especially when they
read consistently (agree on stuff).

https://i.postimg.cc/kg6nvC3r/meter.jpg


Well I was going to retort "I know how to use my bl**dy digital
multi-meters", then got to the bit where you mention "fuse blown" and
remembered I'd cooked one a few years ago - doh! That was the one I
was using, so in a roundabout way - thank you. They are identical and
I used to remember which was which because one had crocodile clips on
the leads and the other didn't. Now marked with permanent ink!!

So, coupled them both up, one in series (the working ammeter one) and
one in paralleld and the good news is that their readings were
identical to the Aldi device. The problem with the Aldi charger is
that the amps are only shown briefly and need a change in mode or a
reconnection to redisplay.

Anyhow the charger has two current levels, ~0.8amp on trickle and 3+
amp on full or cold charge. On full charge I've measure up to 14.56v
but it will then immediately switch itself to trickle and the voltage
will drop to ~13.5v.

I guess all of this is ok but what is a bit random is the battery
level indicator which I'd expect to steadily rise to the full 5 bar
but it can fluctuate to anywhere around 2~3 and once (on frost setting
and only temporarily) up to 4 bar.

But as mentioned the battery will now be 10yrs old.

I've not tried it yet on another battery.


--
AnthonyL

Why do scientists need to BELIEVE in anything?

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
Anyhow the charger has two current levels, ~0.8amp on trickle and 3+
amp on full or cold charge. On full charge I've measure up to 14.56v
but it will then immediately switch itself to trickle and the voltage
will drop to ~13.5v.

Sounds like it is sensing the battery is full?

Never been a lover of battery volts telling you much off load. A freshly
charged battery will show a much higher voltage than it will a day later.
But it won't actually have discharged at all in that period with no load.

2.2v used to be the schoolboy figure for a full charge per cell which
would give 13.2v. But something like 12.5 is more realistic as things
settle.

--
*Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 08 May 2020 13:54:55 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
Anyhow the charger has two current levels, ~0.8amp on trickle and 3+
amp on full or cold charge. On full charge I've measure up to 14.56v
but it will then immediately switch itself to trickle and the voltage
will drop to ~13.5v.

Sounds like it is sensing the battery is full?

Never been a lover of battery volts telling you much off load. A freshly
charged battery will show a much higher voltage than it will a day later.
But it won't actually have discharged at all in that period with no load.

2.2v used to be the schoolboy figure for a full charge per cell which
would give 13.2v. But something like 12.5 is more realistic as things
settle.


I'm happy to accept the battery is fully charged, or as charged as it
will be and so the charger at £9.99 is doing a decent job. Just a
shame that the indicator is not a good indicator!

--
AnthonyL

Why do scientists need to BELIEVE in anything?

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
Anyhow the charger has two current levels, ~0.8amp on trickle and 3+
amp on full or cold charge. On full charge I've measure up to 14.56v
but it will then immediately switch itself to trickle and the voltage
will drop to ~13.5v.

Sounds like it is sensing the battery is full?

Never been a lover of battery volts telling you much off load. A freshly
charged battery will show a much higher voltage than it will a day later.
But it won't actually have discharged at all in that period with no load.

2.2v used to be the schoolboy figure for a full charge per cell which
would give 13.2v. But something like 12.5 is more realistic as things
settle.

OK experts.

My leisure battery on the caravan has gone flat, so flat that my (very
old) Halfords Automatic charger won't start charging it.
What would be the result of linking this battery across my car battery
in terms of how quickly it would charge and would it damage the leisure
battery?
--
bert

In article ,
bert wrote:
My leisure battery on the caravan has gone flat, so flat that my (very
old) Halfords Automatic charger won't start charging it.
What would be the result of linking this battery across my car battery
in terms of how quickly it would charge and would it damage the leisure
battery?

Many modern chargers need some volts from the battery to connect to it.
If you link another battery to it and the charger at the same time, that
will let the charger connect. Then disconnect the spare battery. The
charger should then carry on charging the flat one.

--
*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/05/2020 15:17, bert wrote:
OK experts.

My leisure battery on the caravan has gone flat, so flat that my (very
old) Halfords Automatic charger won't start charging it.
What would be the result of linking this battery across my car battery
in terms of how quickly it would charge and would it damage the leisure
battery?

Why don't you connect them via a spare headlamp bulb? That should draw
about 5A at first, dropping off as the leisure battery gets off the floor.

Conveniently the bulb resistance will drop as the volage difference
reduces

Andy

Vir Campestris wrote:
On 10/05/2020 15:17, bert wrote:
OK experts.

My leisure battery on the caravan has gone flat, so flat that my (very
old) Halfords Automatic charger won't start charging it.
What would be the result of linking this battery across my car battery
in terms of how quickly it would charge and would it damage the
leisure battery?

Why don't you connect them via a spare headlamp bulb? That should draw
about 5A at first, dropping off as the leisure battery gets off the floor.

Conveniently the bulb resistance will drop as the volage difference
reduces

Andy

The purpose of the bulb, is to reduce the current flow
when one of the batteries is really flat. If the bulb
was a turn signal, the initial current flow is 1A or 2A
or so. If the bulb was a headlight, the current might
be 20A. Either would do, from a "reducing current"
perspective. If you used "just cables" and no bulb,
100A could flow for the first bit of time, which
might make everybody but you happy. The battery on
the left has "CCA" cranking-amps, so it can easily
push 100A, but the sparks thrown aren't all that
nice. What you don't want, is for any hydrogen gas
to be ignited by sparking. A turn signal bulb does
not eliminate sparking, but keeps the sparking down
a bit. The light from the light bulb will handily
dim, as the flat battery ends up with some standing
voltage on it. As the battery on the right fills,
the bulb goes out (stops lighting).

+------- 12V_bulb -------+
| |
| +------+ | +-------+
| | | | | |
(+) (-) | (+) (-) |
| | | | | |
| 12V Battery | | | 12V Battery | |
| | | | FLAT | |
+--------------+ | +--------------+ |
| |
+-------------------------+

The knee of most batteries is pretty sharp, and it
should not take long before the 12V FLAT battery is
raised to say, 6V. And then, the polarity detection
on the "smart charger" will be able to tell a
battery is connected, and it's connected correctly
to continue charging.

I don't think the manual for my smart charger, says what
the minimum is, for it to start working.

To hook up a light bulb, you might need to have
a socket to hold the bulb. This style of item gives
you the two wires, and you'd have to strip the
insulation and use some alligator clip leads to
finish the wiring job. I never seem to have enough
of those (home-made) alligator clip wires around.

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Socket.../dp/B01N32HY48

You can solder wires to light bulbs too, but only if
they're suited to this. Some styles, the wires don't
take solder all that well.

You *could* do it with cables, if you like to
see sparks fly. Also, depending on what loads
are already on the left-most battery, you
could set off the tamper on the alarm system
if one is present. With the light-bulb limiter,
there are fewer theatrics.

Paul

On 05/05/2020 07:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

No Bill. EMFÂ* or voltage is entirely down to rotational speed times
flux density. Flux can be varied by adjusting field coil current so
the alternator will deliver whatever voltsÂ* it needs to do to push
150A out


A lovely example of bull**** baffles brains, or 'obfuscation'. What
you did was trot out a lot of fairly obvious but scarcely relevant
guff to hide the fact that you were talking ********. Everyone can see
through this sort of thing you know. Try to remember that amongst the
members of this group there are people who have had a working lifetime
of detecting bull****.

Bill
Bill Don't be silly. Look it up.

You are making a fool of yourself.

No I'm making a fool of you; which is an easy task.

Bill

On 05/05/2020 12:19, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
williamwright wrote:
I used to have a little encapsulated charger that was rated at 2A and
actually charged at around 2.2A all night. I never checked but I bet the
output was about 15.5V. I once left it on for a weekend and the battery
was bubbling on the Monday morning. This was a long time ago. I'm
talking about the days when I had to charge the battery every night in
winter because I was driving home from college and then school with the
lights and wipers on.

You need the Lidl one. About £13. Small enough to fit in a large pocket.
Charges full blast until the battery is full, then changes automatically
to a maintenance charge which can be left on indefinitely. It's got enough
output to charge a 70 amp hour battery overnight.

Nah! There's no need nowadays.

Bill

On 11/05/2020 14:31, williamwright wrote:
On 05/05/2020 07:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

No Bill. EMFÂ* or voltage is entirely down to rotational speed times
flux density. Flux can be varied by adjusting field coil current so
the alternator will deliver whatever voltsÂ* it needs to do to push
150A out


A lovely example of bull**** baffles brains, or 'obfuscation'. What
you did was trot out a lot of fairly obvious but scarcely relevant
guff to hide the fact that you were talking ********. Everyone can
see through this sort of thing you know. Try to remember that amongst
the members of this group there are people who have had a working
lifetime of detecting bull****.

Bill
Bill Don't be silly. Look it up.

You are making a fool of yourself.

No I'm making a fool of you; which is an easy task.

Bill
I used to respect your knowledge, Bill.
Its sad


--
€œThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnt true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.€�

€”Soren Kierkegaard

On 11/05/2020 18:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/05/2020 14:31, williamwright wrote:
On 05/05/2020 07:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

No Bill. EMFÂ* or voltage is entirely down to rotational speed times
flux density. Flux can be varied by adjusting field coil current so
the alternator will deliver whatever voltsÂ* it needs to do to push
150A out


A lovely example of bull**** baffles brains, or 'obfuscation'. What
you did was trot out a lot of fairly obvious but scarcely relevant
guff to hide the fact that you were talking ********. Everyone can
see through this sort of thing you know. Try to remember that
amongst the members of this group there are people who have had a
working lifetime of detecting bull****.

Bill
Bill Don't be silly. Look it up.

You are making a fool of yourself.

No I'm making a fool of you; which is an easy task.

Bill
I used to respect your knowledge, Bill.
Its sad


I never respected yours, because so often you were proved wrong.

Bill

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert wrote:
My leisure battery on the caravan has gone flat, so flat that my (very
old) Halfords Automatic charger won't start charging it.
What would be the result of linking this battery across my car battery
in terms of how quickly it would charge and would it damage the leisure
battery?

Many modern chargers need some volts from the battery to connect to it.
If you link another battery to it and the charger at the same time, that
will let the charger connect. Then disconnect the spare battery. The
charger should then carry on charging the flat one.

Always struck me as a bit odd to produce a battery charger that wouldn't
charge a flat battery, but that's progress.

I connected the LB across the car battery and left engine running just
for a few minutes,
Then disconnect and reconnected battery charger.
After just a few minutes it went from charging to charged so
disconnected.
Left battery for a few hours then checked voltage to find it was below
12 and slowly falling.
Left it overnight when it was down to about 10. Put it back on charger
and hours later it was saying charged.
Left it again and now it is sitting at 12+ and stable.
So was it initially fully charged by the car alternator or was something
initially confusing the battery charger? Maybe I didn't leave it long
enough before reconnecting the charger and it was till showing over 12v
although nowhere near charged?
The good news is I appear to still have a fully functioning battery!
--
bert

In article ,
bert wrote:
Many modern chargers need some volts from the battery to connect to it.
If you link another battery to it and the charger at the same time, that
will let the charger connect. Then disconnect the spare battery. The
charger should then carry on charging the flat one.

Always struck me as a bit odd to produce a battery charger that wouldn't
charge a flat battery, but that's progress.

It is the easy way to protect the charger from reverse polarity
connection. You have a relay on the input fed from the battery via a
diode. It will then only make with correct connection.

Older chargers would simply blow a fuse, if reverse connected. Know which
I prefer. ;-)

--
*If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, 11 May 2020 06:56:03 UTC+1, Paul wrote:
Vir Campestris wrote:
On 10/05/2020 15:17, bert wrote:
OK experts.

My leisure battery on the caravan has gone flat, so flat that my (very
old) Halfords Automatic charger won't start charging it.
What would be the result of linking this battery across my car battery
in terms of how quickly it would charge and would it damage the
leisure battery?

Why don't you connect them via a spare headlamp bulb? That should draw
about 5A at first, dropping off as the leisure battery gets off the floor.

Conveniently the bulb resistance will drop as the volage difference
reduces

Andy

The purpose of the bulb, is to reduce the current flow
when one of the batteries is really flat. If the bulb
was a turn signal, the initial current flow is 1A or 2A
or so. If the bulb was a headlight, the current might
be 20A. Either would do, from a "reducing current"
perspective. If you used "just cables" and no bulb,
100A could flow for the first bit of time, which
might make everybody but you happy. The battery on
the left has "CCA" cranking-amps, so it can easily
push 100A, but the sparks thrown aren't all that
nice. What you don't want, is for any hydrogen gas
to be ignited by sparking. A turn signal bulb does
not eliminate sparking, but keeps the sparking down
a bit. The light from the light bulb will handily
dim, as the flat battery ends up with some standing
voltage on it. As the battery on the right fills,
the bulb goes out (stops lighting).

+------- 12V_bulb -------+
| |
| +------+ | +-------+
| | | | | |
(+) (-) | (+) (-) |
| | | | | |
| 12V Battery | | | 12V Battery | |
| | | | FLAT | |
+--------------+ | +--------------+ |
| |
+-------------------------+

The knee of most batteries is pretty sharp, and it
should not take long before the 12V FLAT battery is
raised to say, 6V. And then, the polarity detection
on the "smart charger" will be able to tell a
battery is connected, and it's connected correctly
to continue charging.

I don't think the manual for my smart charger, says what
the minimum is, for it to start working.

To hook up a light bulb, you might need to have
a socket to hold the bulb. This style of item gives
you the two wires, and you'd have to strip the
insulation and use some alligator clip leads to
finish the wiring job. I never seem to have enough
of those (home-made) alligator clip wires around.

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Socket.../dp/B01N32HY48

You can solder wires to light bulbs too, but only if
they're suited to this. Some styles, the wires don't
take solder all that well.

You *could* do it with cables, if you like to
see sparks fly. Also, depending on what loads
are already on the left-most battery, you
could set off the tamper on the alarm system
if one is present. With the light-bulb limiter,
there are fewer theatrics.

Paul

Sounds a bit OTT. I'd just connect the batteries. Different story if you need to do it on a regular basis, but if you do the setup needs sorting, as lead acids hate going flat.

You're not going to get hydrogen by charging from another 12v battery, it requires more volts to split the water.


NT

On 12/05/2020 01:57, williamwright wrote:
On 11/05/2020 18:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/05/2020 14:31, williamwright wrote:
On 05/05/2020 07:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

No Bill. EMFÂ* or voltage is entirely down to rotational speed
times flux density. Flux can be varied by adjusting field coil
current so the alternator will deliver whatever voltsÂ* it needs to
do to push 150A out


A lovely example of bull**** baffles brains, or 'obfuscation'. What
you did was trot out a lot of fairly obvious but scarcely relevant
guff to hide the fact that you were talking ********. Everyone can
see through this sort of thing you know. Try to remember that
amongst the members of this group there are people who have had a
working lifetime of detecting bull****.

Bill
Bill Don't be silly. Look it up.

You are making a fool of yourself.

No I'm making a fool of you; which is an easy task.

Bill
I used to respect your knowledge, Bill.
Its sad


I never respected yours, because so often you were proved wrong.

Bill

Nice burn.

bert wrote:

The good news is I appear to still have a fully functioning battery!

Load test... then recharge.

If you had a 12V @ 100Ah battery, that's 1200 Wh.
A 60W bulb would last 20 hours. Put a light
bulb or two on the inverter as a test, and
run it for a bit. Like say, for 1 hour.
If the battery flattens in 1 hour, and is
below 11.8V or so, you have your answer
(knackered). A good inverter, stops driving
the load, when the cell voltage drops below
11.8V or so. Your "flat" result, is perhaps
a self-discharge, which the inverter could
not do anything about.

If it doesn't seem that full based on the load test,
the smart charger might not be working right. Which is
always a possibility with modern electronics. But
bad batteries are so common, if you were betting
on the problem, you'd bet on the battery being bad.

Using a dumb charger, and watching a battery
shoot up to 15-16V after 5 minutes, that's usually
a giveaway that the battery is sulphated or something.
A good battery tends to "squash" those voltages
and when the relatively-low-current dumb charger
is connected, the voltages stay down better while
it fills. When topping up a battery, my 6 amp
dumb charger would use maybe 1 amp or so when
the battery voltage is "flying high". That means
the battery has achieved a high flying result,
with little in the way of current flow coming in.

Paul