Hello

I've just had an old Armitage Shanks toilet replaced with a new Heritage
Bathrooms model.
The AS cistern had an upstanding pipe which allowed water to run out the
house in the event that the inlet valve failed - which it did a few times
over the years. The HB cistern has no such external overflow and as far as I
can see, if I hold down the float it simply overflows over the top of the
cistern.

Is this correct, or am I missing something here?

Many Thanks
Des

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:35:24 +0000 (UTC), "Des"
wrote:

Hello

I've just had an old Armitage Shanks toilet replaced with a new Heritage
Bathrooms model.
The AS cistern had an upstanding pipe which allowed water to run out the
house in the event that the inlet valve failed - which it did a few times
over the years. The HB cistern has no such external overflow and as far as I
can see, if I hold down the float it simply overflows over the top of the
cistern.

Is this correct, or am I missing something here?

[T] I thought they can overflow into the pan these days?

All the best ..

T i m

On 25 Feb 2004, Des wrote

Hello

I've just had an old Armitage Shanks toilet replaced with a new
Heritage Bathrooms model.
The AS cistern had an upstanding pipe which allowed water to run
out the house in the event that the inlet valve failed - which it
did a few times over the years. The HB cistern has no such
external overflow and as far as I can see, if I hold down the
float it simply overflows over the top of the cistern.

Is this correct, or am I missing something here?

Sounds odd; are you sure there isn't an overflow hole out the side of
the cistern, up towards the top?

I'm not positive about this, , but I *think* close-coupled tanks have
an upstand pipe that overflows out the bottom, as it were, whilst low-
rise and high-rise cisterns have the overflow hole higher up, on the
side.

--
Cheers,
Harvey

For e-mail, change harvey to whhvs.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Des wrote:

Hello

I've just had an old Armitage Shanks toilet replaced with a new
Heritage Bathrooms model.
The AS cistern had an upstanding pipe which allowed water to run out
the house in the event that the inlet valve failed - which it did a
few times over the years. The HB cistern has no such external
overflow and as far as I can see, if I hold down the float it simply
overflows over the top of the cistern.

Is this correct, or am I missing something here?

Many Thanks
Des


Some modern cisterns apparently have internal overflows - which flow into
the pan.

Have you actually *tried* holding the float down to see what happens?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

"Set Square" wrote in message
...

Some modern cisterns apparently have internal overflows - which flow into
the pan.

Have you actually *tried* holding the float down to see what happens?
--


Yes, I did and the level reached the lowest part of the cistern rim (why on
earth do they have semi-circular cut out on the back?) and began to
overflow. I tried again with a bucket and this time added water more gently
and it seemed to cope. There is some form of internal overflow through the
siphon into the pan but it would only deal with a leaking valve - certainly
not a complete failure.

The AS design was much better imo. I'll have to hope that modern valves are
less likely to stick open due to sand/soil in the supply following works -
that happened with my compact silent valves a few times.

Thanks

I have the same toilet and had the same problem! I just replaced the
standard Heritage supplied valve with a Wickes Torbeck Valve. This gives you
inserts to adjust the flow into the cistern, my cistern now takes 80 secs to
fill instead of 45 but it is much quieter (almost silent) and if I jam the
valve open the flow is at a rate that the internal overflow can cope with.I
can jam the valve open for 20 mins and the level never rises above the
internal overflow, as you pointed out with the standard fitting it
overflowed in about 20 - 30 secs.

John
"Des" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...

Some modern cisterns apparently have internal overflows - which flow
into
the pan.

Have you actually *tried* holding the float down to see what happens?
--


Yes, I did and the level reached the lowest part of the cistern rim (why
on
earth do they have semi-circular cut out on the back?) and began to
overflow. I tried again with a bucket and this time added water more
gently
and it seemed to cope. There is some form of internal overflow through the
siphon into the pan but it would only deal with a leaking valve -
certainly
not a complete failure.

The AS design was much better imo. I'll have to hope that modern valves
are
less likely to stick open due to sand/soil in the supply following works -
that happened with my compact silent valves a few times.

Thanks

"Des" wrote in message
...
Hello

I've just had an old Armitage Shanks toilet replaced with a new Heritage
Bathrooms model.
The AS cistern had an upstanding pipe which allowed water to run out the
house in the event that the inlet valve failed - which it did a few times
over the years. The HB cistern has no such external overflow and as far as
I
can see, if I hold down the float it simply overflows over the top of the
cistern.

Is this correct, or am I missing something here?

Many Thanks
Des

Modern cisterns/syphons are designed to overflow into the pan. If yours is
not there is likely a problem.

HTH
Rob

Des wrote
There is some form of internal overflow through the
siphon into the pan but it would only deal with a leaking valve - certainly
not a complete failure.

Don't forget you can regulate the water flow with the external isolating valve.
It makes filling much quieter too!

Peter

"Des" wrote:

Hello Des

D| I've just had an old Armitage Shanks toilet replaced with a
D| new Heritage Bathrooms model. The AS cistern had an

Ha! I've just fitted a Heritage toilet also. It's nice.

D| upstanding pipe which allowed water to run out the house in
D| the event that the inlet valve failed - which it did a few
D| times over the years. The HB cistern has no such external
D| overflow and as far as I can see, if I hold down the float
D| it simply overflows over the top of the cistern.
D| Is this correct, or am I missing something here?

I had this same question. The ceramic cistern has no hole for a
conventional overflow. The instructions for the flush assembly DO
mention an internal overflow but it's by no means apparent that what
you're given is such a beast.

However... When I hold down the ballcock on mine to simulate an
overflow, water DOES drain down to the pan (as per the new regs that
allow an internal overflow). I have absolutely no idea how it does
this - there's no physical difference to the assembly compared to a
normal one, but it "just works", so I stopped worrying about it. It
doesn't drain enough to cope with a full blown entry failure, but then
- a 21.5mm conventional overflow often wouldn't either.

Mine, and I suspect, yours - are internal overflows that will cope
with a small volume of water which is adequate for the majority of
"leaking" feeds.

It could be you don't have the internal overflow gubbins inside, or if
you "had it fitted" the plumber substited it or somehow messed up the
fitting. I can confirm, though, that HB supplied mine with an internal
overflow which works through some kind of magic.

Hold down the float to raise the water level until it's about to flood
then check the pan, I suspect you'll see water trickling down.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

Harvey Van Sickle wrote:

Hello Harvey

HVS| Sounds odd; are you sure there isn't an overflow hole out
HVS| the side of the cistern, up towards the top?

Not with the new ones. Makes it a lot easier and neater to fix,
especially on internal walls.

HVS| I'm not positive about this, , but I *think* close-coupled
HVS| tanks have an upstand pipe that overflows out the bottom, as
HVS| it were, whilst low- rise and high-rise cisterns have the
HVS| overflow hole higher up, on the side.

I have the same cistern - it has four holes:

1. Water entry. Bottom.
2. Flush out - Bottom.
3. Handle hole.
4. The big hole in the top under the lid... (Plus a couple of screw
holes)

That's it - no conventional overflow at all.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

On 26 Feb 2004, Simon Avery wrote

Harvey Van Sickle wrote:

Hello Harvey

HVS| Sounds odd; are you sure there isn't an overflow hole out
HVS| the side of the cistern, up towards the top?

Not with the new ones. Makes it a lot easier and neater to fix,
especially on internal walls.

Thanks; wasn't aware of that.

Reading the description in your other post, though, doesn't this
invisibility lead to "not knowing and therefore not fixing" minor
overflow problems?

It seems to me that one of the advantages of a visible overflow is that
it acts as a flag to let you know that you should look at the thing so
it doesn't get worse.


--
Cheers,
Harvey

For e-mail, change harvey to whhvs.

Simon Avery wrote:

However... When I hold down the ballcock on mine to simulate an
overflow, water DOES drain down to the pan (as per the new regs that
allow an internal overflow). I have absolutely no idea how it does
this - there's no physical difference to the assembly compared to a
normal one, but it "just works", so I stopped worrying about it. It
doesn't drain enough to cope with a full blown entry failure, but then
- a 21.5mm conventional overflow often wouldn't either.

On reading this thread I decided to check 2 cisterns I've installed in my
house recently (different cisterns but both with internal overflows). I
held the ballcock right down on both and both coped totally - the water
level rose slightly but then remained constant - overflow going down the
pan. They would certainly cope with a full blown entry failure.
--
Regards,

Tròy the Black Lab.

Is this correct, or am I missing something here?

Just fitted new toilet - wondered where the overflow was as well but then
read it's built in, down the pan.

Rob.

It is an older model though. Heritage seem to have gone over to
pushbutton flushes, which we dislike, so we had the display model out
of the showroom which has a lever.

Any particular reason?

Cheers, Rob

Harvey Van Sickle wrote:

Hello Harvey

HVS| Reading the description in your other post, though, doesn't
HVS| this invisibility lead to "not knowing and therefore not
HVS| fixing" minor overflow problems?
HVS| It seems to me that one of the advantages of a visible
HVS| overflow is that it acts as a flag to let you know that you
HVS| should look at the thing so it doesn't get worse.

That's why they always had the external overflow, but I guess they're
less fussy now or maybe modern materials are less likely to fail?

The overflow /is/ noticable, you can see the water running down the
inside back of the pan. But it's far less annoying than a traditional
overflow so possibly is less likely to get fixed so quickly.

But I like it anyway, I didn't want to spoil my lovely new tiles by
poking a big bit of plastic through them.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

(Huge) wrote:

Hello Huge

H| Except my HB toilet *does* have a conventional overflow.

Oh!

H| It is an older model though. Heritage seem to have gone over
H| to pushbutton flushes, which we dislike, so we had the
H| display model out of the showroom which has a lever.

Ours is brand new and lever-equipped (I'd hate pushbutton too), so
maybe they switched back, or it's range dependant?

Got the whole bathroom from Heritage. Everything is superb quality
except for the shower head and rail - just gilt plastic. A real shame
as the rest of the golden stuff is all metal.

Today I've started ripping out old shower!

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

"Simon Avery" wrote in message
...
"Des" wrote:


I had this same question. The ceramic cistern has no hole for a
conventional overflow. The instructions for the flush assembly DO
mention an internal overflow but it's by no means apparent that what
you're given is such a beast.

However... When I hold down the ballcock on mine to simulate an
overflow, water DOES drain down to the pan (as per the new regs that
allow an internal overflow). I have absolutely no idea how it does
this - there's no physical difference to the assembly compared to a
normal one, but it "just works", so I stopped worrying about it.
....
It could be you don't have the internal overflow gubbins inside

There's no extra gubbins: water simply flows over the top of the
inverted-U-shaped part of the syphon assembly and down into the pan. The
only difference between that and a bog[sorry] standard arrangement is the
relative levels of the top of the syphon and the external overflow on
conventional cisterns which allow water to reach the top of the syphon - on
a normal cistern water would reach the overflow outlet first.

It
doesn't drain enough to cope with a full blown entry failure, but then
- a 21.5mm conventional overflow often wouldn't either.

It should be able to cope with practically full-bore mains flow into the
cistern, but for some reason cistern makers do like to put stupid cutouts
into the back of the cistern for no apparent reason which compromise the
design.

As for the question of which type of overflow is more easily visible, I
think a drip is more visible from an external pipe, but I've seen external
pipes in inconspicuous (even invisible) places where a minor river can (and
in some cases I've seen, does) discharge without anyone noticing, which they
would with an overflow down the pan.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
"Des" writes:
Hello


Thanks - the issue is now resolved


BTW, I'm not greatly pleased with Heritage Bathrooms. The first vanity
unit for the sink, and the toilet seat, were both damaged. The vanity had
marks down the front where some decoration had been routed out and the
toilet seat had a "ding" in it.


This is not the first such remark I've heard in connection with Heritage.
Our cistern came without the handle - caveat emptor!

Des

It is an older model though. Heritage seem to have gone over to
pushbutton flushes, which we dislike, so we had the display model out
of the showroom which has a lever.


Interesting comment, both this years and last years Heritage catalogue have
mainly handle operated flushes, although there are some ranges with push
button ones. I presume you did have the opportunity to see a catalogue or
were buying from somewhere that did not offer the full heritage range.

Anyway, I agree I would not want a push button flush, guess we must be
traditionalists!

"pushbutton flushes, which we dislike".

But why do you dislike them? :-)

Rob.

Ours is brand new and lever-equipped (I'd hate pushbutton too), so

What's all this hate about a poor little pushbutton? I rather like mine.

Rob

On 27 Feb 2004 22:52:21 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

"Rob Nicholson" writes:
"pushbutton flushes, which we dislike".

But why do you dislike them? :-)

I have no idea. Just don't. Like slipon shoes.


It's the same thing really - not such positive control of the
situation......



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

I have no idea. Just don't. Like slipon shoes.

Ahh, now slipon shoes I can relate to.

It's the same thing really - not such positive control of the
situation......

Maybe but it's a BUTTON - guys like pressing buttons. Do you have more
control with a lever?

Rob.

(Huge) wrote:

Hello Huge

Got the whole bathroom from Heritage. Everything is superb
quality
H Well, good, anyway.

Hmm, I'd put it higher than good, but then I've been living with the
crap bathroom from CrapBathroomsville for three years so my
expectations might be different...

Example: Corner tiling inside shower cubicle - Tiles not meeting
corner. So he used over an inch of grout. The tray was (not) sealed to
the tiles with another inch wide and four inch deep strip of silicon.
Not surprisingly, despite the bathroom being only 4 years old, the old
shower has rotted out floorboards and an internal stud wall.

Oh, and he put up one of the glass shower screens close against a
fitted cupboard. Not a problem - except he forgot to remove the big
"This way up" label which couldn't be reached and has been annoying us
every day since we got here.

H We bought the shower from Merlyn - 1200x900 frameless glass
H & I'm going to get another shower valve from CP Hart, the
H same as the one in our en-suite.

Good plan - stick with what you know!

My last bathroom was also heritage, including whirlpool bath. That all
worked fine, had great quality finish and the service through the
local outlet was fine. But I think the main reason we chose them was
because I really like their big quarter-turn enamel taps.

Today I've started ripping out old shower!
H Welcome!

2nd time around and (touch wood) everything's going very smoothly. On
the home straight now!

--
Simon
Dartmoor, England

(Huge) wrote:

Hello Huge

H| I'd have agreed with you, except the repeated attempts to
H| get undamaged woodwork, and the quality of that woodwork has
H| dampened my enthusiasm.

Yeah, dragging problems like that can seriously change your viewpoint.

The woodwork we've had, mahogany and pine bath surrounds - have been
fine. Quite well packaged and protected, but if the local outlet (who
do the final delivery since HB don't deliver direct afaik) are kack
handed then it could all go bad.

Our shower hose was held up for a month, and HB said they'd sent the
WC flush handle twice, but it never appeared. (Local stockists
replaced it with one from an over order). All the big items were
fine, though.

2nd time around and (touch wood) everything's going very
smoothly. On the home straight now!
H| I've had to stop for the moment. Other things to do...

I'm steaming ahead now, desperate to try out this shower! Currently
having a cup of tea whilst covered in tile dust and having left grouty
footprints across the hall...

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/