https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment

harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment

Are you surprised? always was going to happen.

On 31/10/2019 07:44, harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment

Meters have always been replaced as their calibration periods expire. It
has always been inevitable that it would reach the point where only
smart meters were available. However, at present, you can still have the
smart function disabled.

--
Colin Bignell

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used to measure the
power used. Gass is pretty easy since it relies on flow, but Electricity can
be influenced by the phase of the current draw in the AC voltage waveform,
and there have been questions before on what is the most accurate way to
deal with this aspect.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 31/10/2019 07:44, harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment

Meters have always been replaced as their calibration periods expire. It
has always been inevitable that it would reach the point where only smart
meters were available. However, at present, you can still have the smart
function disabled.

--
Colin Bignell

Until all the companies can actually supply a customer monitor module that
has a voice so it can be used by blind people, they will not offer us one
according to EDF. However I've heard and touched one which is now,
apparently available and yet EDF have they say never heard of it, instead
offering an Echo skill or a smart phone app instead.
I am just going to sit here and wait and see what happens. I've seen three
meter changes over the years in this property. Apparently, meters have to go
to be refurbished every so often and hence they will probably leave the
hassle of changing them till that period is reached. However if they are
still reconditioning old ones, maybe you can get one of those. What would be
nice is to have an economy 7 type system where you can elect to ovr ride it
in circumstances where cost is not the issue. After all we can do that on
water heaters already. When I asked about it I was told that I'd need to
change all my storage heaters and give each a dual supply.
Not very helpful, maybe remote controlled smart meters is the answer.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"harry" wrote in message
...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment

On 31/10/2019 09:59, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used to measure the
power used. Gass is pretty easy since it relies on flow,

Gas also varies in energy content, so knowing the volume metered is not
quite enough information to work out what to bill for. Hence the
conversion fiddle factors included in your gas bill.

but Electricity can
be influenced by the phase of the current draw in the AC voltage waveform,
and there have been questions before on what is the most accurate way to
deal with this aspect.

Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only the
instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive currents. How
good they are with with modern loads with poor power factors caused by
high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs) rather than a more
traditional phase shift is perhaps a more interesting question.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:26:48 +0000, nightjar wrote:

Meters have always been replaced as their calibration periods expire.

In theory, ours are dated 1967, 1980 and 1996... The two digits in
the first part of the meter number are its calibration year.

The first two are mechanical, the 67 one almost certainly "out of
date", the second might be, some mechanical meters "last" 40 years.

I'm in no rush to get smart meter(s) unless they also agree to "tidy
up" the incomer and meter board and fit isolation switches. The
chances are a smart meter wouldn't have a comms signal anyway being
in the North and the Northern Network not using one of the mobile
networks but a system operated by Arqiva.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 31/10/2019 10:07, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Until all the companies can actually supply a customer monitor module that
has a voice so it can be used by blind people, they will not offer us one
according to EDF. However I've heard and touched one which is now,
apparently available and yet EDF have they say never heard of it, instead
offering an Echo skill or a smart phone app instead.
I am just going to sit here and wait and see what happens. I've seen three
meter changes over the years in this property. Apparently, meters have to go
to be refurbished every so often and hence they will probably leave the
hassle of changing them till that period is reached. However if they are
still reconditioning old ones, maybe you can get one of those. What would be
nice is to have an economy 7 type system where you can elect to ovr ride it
in circumstances where cost is not the issue. After all we can do that on
water heaters already. When I asked about it I was told that I'd need to
change all my storage heaters and give each a dual supply.
Not very helpful, maybe remote controlled smart meters is the answer.
Brian

I had a smart(?) meter installed. It does not work properly as it is too
far away from the meter. a waste of space!

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:07:10 -0000, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:

What would be nice is to have an economy 7 type system where you can
elect to ovr ride it in circumstances where cost is not the issue. After
all we can do that on water heaters already. When I asked about it I was
told that I'd need to change all my storage heaters and give each a dual
supply. Not very helpful, ...

But posibly quite beneficial as new storage heaters would be the high
heat retention type with programable room stats so don't dump all
thier heat during the day when the weather suddenly turns cold
leaving nothing for the evening.

There was a grant scheme available a while back to swap old "pile of
bricks in a tin can" storeage heaters for modern high heat retention
ones. Donno if it's still running or what the requirements to qualify
were.

... maybe remote controlled smart meters is the answer.

They are remote controlled or do you mean the customer having
control?

--
Cheers
Dave.

nightjar wrote:

Meters have always been replaced as their calibration periods expire. It
has always been inevitable that it would reach the point where only
smart meters were available. However, at present, you can still have the
smart function disabled.

I guess the way they will go is to introduce tariffs which
require a smart meter, and will be the cheapest overall.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment


You know it's coming. Before we had a water meter, our monthly bill was
£60. As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40. Hard not to believe
that we were simply being penalised.

On 31/10/2019 10:07, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Until all the companies can actually supply a customer monitor module that
has a voice so it can be used by blind people, they will not offer us one
according to EDF. However I've heard and touched one which is now,
apparently available and yet EDF have they say never heard of it, instead
offering an Echo skill or a smart phone app instead.
I am just going to sit here and wait and see what happens. I've seen three
meter changes over the years in this property. Apparently, meters have to go
to be refurbished every so often and hence they will probably leave the
hassle of changing them till that period is reached. However if they are
still reconditioning old ones, maybe you can get one of those. What would be
nice is to have an economy 7 type system where you can elect to ovr ride it
in circumstances where cost is not the issue. After all we can do that on
water heaters already. When I asked about it I was told that I'd need to
change all my storage heaters and give each a dual supply.

Turning a storage heater on during peak times won't do much good as
it'll just be heating the storage bricks. Dual supply storage heaters
have a separate element at the top that gives instant heat.

--
Max Demian

On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment



You know it's coming.Â* Before we had a water meter, our monthly bill was
£60.Â* As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40.Â* Hard not to believe
that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was because
the previous bill was based on the rateable value. Smart meters will
make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price when I want to cook
the dinner in the evening.

--
Michael Chare

We had a meter replaced at the last house and it is surprising how long the old meters to be refurbished sit on the shelf. The first we found out was when we started to get bills backdated for three years showing usage and payments we had made. These bills kept arriving in batches until they worked up to the most current bill. When I phoned them up it turned out somebody had read the meter wrong at the change over and it was only after someone had taken it off the shelf they noticed a discrepancy in the numbers, I could not believe it had sat there for three years before someone noticed there was something wrong. When the final bill came through it was not a refund we owed them! I was amazed that they could reclaim monies owed so far back but apparently when the energy companies were privatised the act gave them unlimited ability to back date bills and seek monies owed. I did make my displeasure known at suddenly out of the blue I had an unbudgeted bill come through when it was their mistake whilst we had continued to make payments in good faith, the best I managed to wrangle out of them was a discount!

Richard

On 31/10/2019 07:44, harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment


It's ********. The govt are saying that the reason for charging more for
non-smart meter use is the cost of meter reading. But I read my own
meter and send the figure to the company.

Bill

Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment



You know it's coming.Â* Before we had a water meter, our monthly bill
was £60.Â* As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40.Â* Hard not to
believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was because
the previous bill was based on the rateable value.Â* Smart meters will
make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price when I want to cook
the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it. My mum and
dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without power for a
day, because 'something got broke'. And they /still/ have to read it
themselves, because they changed supplier. Plus, I would have to take a
day off work.

Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used to measure the
power used. Gass is pretty easy since it relies on flow, but Electricity can
be influenced by the phase of the current draw in the AC voltage waveform,
and there have been questions before on what is the most accurate way to
deal with this aspect.
Brian
I don't think there is any question at all about *how* to do it; just
how well various electronic meters perform, especially with unusual
waveforms.

--

Roger Hayter

Tricky Dicky pretended :
I did make my displeasure known at suddenly out of the blue I had an
unbudgeted bill come through when it was their mistake whilst we had
continued to make payments in good faith, the best I managed to wrangle out
of them was a discount!

You should have said you couldn't afford to pay it and offered to make
a token payment per week until it was paid off.

Bill Wright submitted this idea :
It's ********. The govt are saying that the reason for charging more for
non-smart meter use is the cost of meter reading. But I read my own meter and
send the figure to the company.

Even with smart meters, they still come round and read them..

On 31/10/2019 13:23, Bill Wright wrote:
On 31/10/2019 07:44, harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment



It's ********. The govt are saying that the reason for charging more for
non-smart meter use is the cost of meter reading. But I read my own
meter and send the figure to the company.

Bill

+1. And I pay EDF immediately using their auto-phone number,
and they take the amount electronically, i.e. a 'direct debit'

On 31/10/2019 15:06, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bill Wright submitted this idea :
It's ********. The govt are saying that the reason for charging more
for non-smart meter use is the cost of meter reading. But I read my
own meter and send the figure to the company.

Even with smart meters, they still come round and read them..

Sometimes, somewhere. Our electricity meter has not been seen by a
reader since first smart meter was fitted in 2012. Before that it was a
routine event. (Well this /is/ Hackney.)

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 31/10/2019 11:08, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:26:48 +0000, nightjar wrote:

Meters have always been replaced as their calibration periods expire.

In theory, ours are dated 1967, 1980 and 1996... The two digits in
the first part of the meter number are its calibration year....

I thought that was the year of manufacture and that calibration status
was shown by a sticker.


--
Colin Bignell

On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 04:36:21 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


We arent silly enough to keep changing the meters either.

But silly enough to get up every night between 1 and 4 am in Australia to be
able to continue with your insipid trolling without too long a break! tsk

--
Norman Wells addressing senile Rot:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 04:45:38 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest idiotic blather

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used to measure the
power used. Gass is pretty easy since it relies on flow, but Electricity
can be influenced by the phase of the current draw in the AC voltage
waveform, and there have been questions before on what is the most
accurate way to deal with this aspect.

Doesn’t really need to be the most accurate, particularly when
that costs a lot more. Just consistent is all that’s needed.

We arent silly enough to keep changing the meters either.
Trivial to have a test load and see what the meter claims
its taking if the consumer wants the meter checked and
trivial to charge them for the check and refund that
charge if the meter is shown to be inaccurate.

"nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 31/10/2019 07:44, harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment

Meters have always been replaced as their calibration periods expire. It
has always been inevitable that it would reach the point where only smart
meters were available. However, at present, you can still have the smart
function disabled.

--
Colin Bignell

Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote

Until all the companies can actually supply a customer monitor module that
has a voice so it can be used by blind people, they will not offer us one
according to EDF. However I've heard and touched one which is now,
apparently available and yet EDF have they say never heard of it, instead
offering an Echo skill or a smart phone app instead.

I am just going to sit here and wait and see what happens.

Your current stupid meter can't be read by blind people
so its unlikely that they will do anything special for you
lot when the smart meters become compulsory.

I've seen three meter changes over the years in this property.

Mine hasn’t been changed in 45 years. The off peak meter has
been, but that was to allow the off peak service to be turned
off and on by the supply authority using tones on the mains.

Apparently, meters have to go to be refurbished every so often and hence
they will probably leave the hassle of changing them till that period is
reached.

More likely when only the luddites have refused
to have a smart meter and they get sick of
paying monkeys to read those manually.

However if they are still reconditioning old ones, maybe you can get one
of those.

Unlikely they will recondition old ones imo.
Makes more sense to just replace the meter.

What would be nice is to have an economy 7 type system where you can elect
to ovr ride it in circumstances where cost is not the issue.

More likely economy 7 will be scrapped and
you can choose to have a time of use tariff imo.

After all we can do that on water heaters already. When I asked about it I
was told that I'd need to change all my storage heaters and give each a
dual supply. Not very helpful, maybe remote controlled smart meters is the
answer.

Or a time of use tariff. Much more useful.

"harry" wrote in message
...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT), Tricky Dicky
wrote:

We had a meter replaced at the last house and it is surprising how long the old meters to be refurbished sit on the shelf. The first we found out was when we started to get bills backdated for three years showing usage and payments we had made. These bills kept arriving in batches until they worked up to the most current bill. When I phoned them up it turned out somebody had read the meter wrong at the change over and it was only after someone had taken it off the shelf they noticed a discrepancy in the numbers, I could not believe it had sat there for three years before someone noticed there was something wrong. When the final bill came through it was not a refund we owed them! I was amazed that they could reclaim monies owed so far back but apparently when the energy companies were privatised the act gave them unlimited ability to back date bills and seek monies owed. I did make my displeasure known at suddenly out of the blue I had an unbudgeted bill come through when it was
their mistake whilst we had continued to make payments in good faith, the best I managed to wrangle out of them was a discount!

Yes they could but not any more they can't.

Energy companies can now only go back 12 months to recover losses from
underbilling:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/consumers/h...de-your-rights

Nick

On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 06:19:25 +1100, Chang, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


But only the most stupid/incompetent would sign up for a plan like that.

ONLY the most stupid/retarded and forsaken would get up EVERY NIGHT between
1 and 4 am and quickly log in on Usenet, just so they got someone to "talk"
to!

--
Norman Wells addressing senile Rot:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 06:22:07 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Unlikely

You disagree again, senile Rodent? LOL

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment


You know it's coming. Before we had a water meter, our monthly bill was
£60. As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40. Hard not to believe
that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was because the
previous bill was based on the rateable value. Smart meters will make it
very easy for suppliers to raise the price when I want to cook the dinner
in the evening.

But only the most stupid/incompetent would sign up for a plan like that.

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
On 31/10/2019 07:44, harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment


It's ********. The govt are saying that the reason for charging more for
non-smart meter use is the cost of meter reading. But I read my own meter
and send the figure to the company.

Unlikely that most with stupid meters do that tho.

John Rumm wrote:

Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only the
instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive currents. How
good they are with with modern loads with poor power factors caused by
high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs) rather than a more
traditional phase shift is perhaps a more interesting question.

Ask a Dutch university?

In article , Roger Hayter
scribeth thus
Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used to measure the
power used. Gass is pretty easy since it relies on flow, but Electricity can
be influenced by the phase of the current draw in the AC voltage waveform,
and there have been questions before on what is the most accurate way to
deal with this aspect.
Brian
I don't think there is any question at all about *how* to do it; just
how well various electronic meters perform, especially with unusual
waveforms.


They were putting one in at a radio site of ours there was a problem
with obtaining a sufficient mobile phone signal the mast for it was just
a mile away over open country.

Told them to sling it and leave the ordinary meter there which they've
done that was around 2 years or so ago!..

--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:50:02 +0000, nightjar wrote:

On 31/10/2019 11:08, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:26:48 +0000, nightjar wrote:

Meters have always been replaced as their calibration periods expire.

In theory, ours are dated 1967, 1980 and 1996... The two digits in
the first part of the meter number are its calibration year....

I thought that was the year of manufacture and that calibration status
was shown by a sticker.

The meter number should stay with the meter 'forever' The meter number often
being an integral part of the meter internal frame.

In the past when mechanical generation and grid supply point meters were
overhauled and recalibrated they were totally stripped of mechanicals, cleaned
and reassembled with any wear parts replaced. The frame of the meter retained
the identity even when they were fitted in a totally different location, which
was nearly always the case unless the associated generation was out of service
for a large and lengthy overhaul.
--

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:50:02 +0000, nightjar wrote:

Meters have always been replaced as their calibration periods
expire.

In theory, ours are dated 1967, 1980 and 1996... The two digits in
the first part of the meter number are its calibration year....

I thought that was the year of manufacture and that calibration status
was shown by a sticker.

Ah, you could be right. The 1980 and 1996 both have a small round
sticker on with "CERTIFIED" around half the edge, a number in the
center and two digits opposite the "CERTIFIED". The 1980 has "7 00"
and the 1996 "8 96". The 1967 has no sticker...

I didn't think any of the meters had been changed since we moved here
in Jan 1999 but "7 00" indicates that one must have been. However 80
to 00 is twenty years so, in theory, it's due 7 20...

1967 would be ball park for when mains electricity arrived. I shall
have to examine the pole, I think they have date code carved into
them.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 31/10/2019 20:27, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only
the instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive currents.
How good they are with with modern loads with poor power factors
caused by high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs) rather than a
more traditional phase shift is perhaps a more interesting question.

Ask a Dutch university?

I don't follow, what have I missed?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment



You know it's coming.Â* Before we had a water meter, our monthly bill
was £60.Â* As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40.Â* Hard not to
believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was because
the previous bill was based on the rateable value.Â* Smart meters will
make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price when I want to cook
the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it.Â* My mum and
dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without power for a
day, because 'something got broke'.Â* And they /still/ have to read it
themselves, because they changed supplier.Â* Plus, I would have to take a
day off work.
The end result of smart meters is to make more money.

"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment


You know it's coming. Before we had a water meter, our monthly bill
was £60. As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40. Hard not to
believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was because
the previous bill was based on the rateable value. Smart meters will
make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price when I want to cook
the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it. My mum and
dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without power for a day,
because 'something got broke'. And they /still/ have to read it
themselves, because they changed supplier. Plus, I would have to take a
day off work.

The end result of smart meters is to make more money.

Save on the cost of reading the meter, actually.
And to make a time of use tariff possible to OFFER.

On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 14:34:59 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


The end result of smart meters is to make more money.

Save on the cost of reading the meter, actually.
And to make a time of use tariff possible to OFFER.

Just what the **** is WRONG with you, you forsaken self-opinionated senile
pest that everybody avoids in real life and even online?

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 01/11/2019 01:09, John Rumm wrote:
On 31/10/2019 20:27, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only
the instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive
currents. How good they are with with modern loads with poor power
factors caused by high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs)
rather than a more traditional phase shift is perhaps a more
interesting question.

Ask a Dutch university?

I don't follow, what have I missed?

Possibly a reference to the study by universities in the Netherlands[1]
which reported smart meters giving false readings. BEAMA commented at
the time that no meters installed in the UK were like those the study
showed to have problems[2]. Others commented that the study used rather
unrealistic loads - e.g. 20 non-dimmable CFLs and 20 non-dimmable LEDs
on a 10A dimmer.


[1]
https://www.utwente.nl/en/news/2017/3/313543/electronic-energy-meters-false-readings-almost-six-times-higher-than-actual-energy-consumption

[2]
http://www.beama.org.uk/news/beama-response-to-ieee-article-on-accuracy-of-dutch-electricity-meters.html


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid