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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 10:56:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 31/10/2019 09:59, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used to measure the
power used. Gass is pretty easy since it relies on flow,


Gas also varies in energy content, so knowing the volume metered is not
quite enough information to work out what to bill for. Hence the
conversion fiddle factors included in your gas bill.

but Electricity can
be influenced by the phase of the current draw in the AC voltage waveform,
and there have been questions before on what is the most accurate way to
deal with this aspect.


Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only the
instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive currents. How
good they are with with modern loads with poor power factors caused by
high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs) rather than a more
traditional phase shift is perhaps a more interesting question.

KWh, KVa and KVar meters (Spinning disk) are/were available.
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On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:50:01 UTC, nightjar wrote:
On 31/10/2019 11:08, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:26:48 +0000, nightjar wrote:

Meters have always been replaced as their calibration periods expire.


In theory, ours are dated 1967, 1980 and 1996... The two digits in
the first part of the meter number are its calibration year....


I thought that was the year of manufacture and that calibration status
was shown by a sticker.

Meter removed were cleaned, new jewels fitted and recalibrated. The sticker shows either date of manufacture or overhaul.
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On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 21:20:22 +0000, tony sayer wrote:


They were putting one in at a radio site of ours there was a problem
with obtaining a sufficient mobile phone signal the mast for it was just
a mile away over open country.

Told them to sling it and leave the ordinary meter there which they've
done that was around 2 years or so ago!..


Besides the two generations of meters the smart meter comms infrastructure also
differs roughly in a north/south split. Not sure exactly where the deliniation
between the two systems is, presumably the split is by DNO area.

One of the comms networks uses GSM '2G' provided iirc by O2 and will remain on
that network so for a few more decades to come. O2 getting paid a wheelbarrow
load of cash to do so.

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On 31/10/2019 07:44:36, harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment


Hardly compulsory. You still have a choice.

There are also alternative suppliers who will set bills accordingly.
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On 01/11/2019 08:11, Robin wrote:
On 01/11/2019 01:09, John Rumm wrote:
On 31/10/2019 20:27, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only
the instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive
currents. How good they are with with modern loads with poor power
factors caused by high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs)
rather than a more traditional phase shift is perhaps a more
interesting question.

Ask a Dutch university?


I don't follow, what have I missed?

Possibly a reference to the study by universities in the Netherlands[1]
which reported smart meters giving false readings.Â* BEAMA commented at
the time that no meters installed in the UK were like those the study
showed to have problems[2].Â* Others commented that the study used rather
unrealistic loads - e.g. 20 non-dimmable CFLs and 20 non-dimmable LEDs
on a 10A dimmer.


[1]
https://www.utwente.nl/en/news/2017/3/313543/electronic-energy-meters-false-readings-almost-six-times-higher-than-actual-energy-consumption


[2]
http://www.beama.org.uk/news/beama-response-to-ieee-article-on-accuracy-of-dutch-electricity-meters.html


Ah ok interesting...

I note that [2] is a little mealy mouthed in its statements, since it
only claims that there are no meters using the affected sensor
technology involved in the GB *smart* metering rollout, and none in
development. However it glosses over whether there are any electronic
non smart meters already installed with these sensing technologies.

Probably need to find the original paper to identify which models are
affected.


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John.

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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

John Rumm wrote:

I note that [2] is a little mealy mouthed in its statements, since it
only claims that there are no meters using the affected sensor
technology involved in the GB *smart* metering rollout, and none in
development. However it glosses over whether there are any electronic
non smart meters already installed with these sensing technologies.

Probably need to find the original paper to identify which models are
affected.


IEEE membership (or payment) needed

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7866234
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Andy Burns wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Probably need to find the original paper to identify which models are
affected.


IEEE membership (or payment) needed


ahem!

https://www.u-cursos.cl/usuario/125f006b1dcdd406c6c85298a6a14229/mi_blog/r/07866234.pdf

Though it conceals the details of the make/model of smart meters
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On 01/11/2019 13:27, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Probably need to find the original paper to identify which models are
affected.


IEEE membership (or payment) needed


ahem!

https://www.u-cursos.cl/usuario/125f006b1dcdd406c6c85298a6a14229/mi_blog/r/07866234.pdf


Also found it he

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...42a5f/download

Though it conceals the details of the make/model of smart meters


Yup, I did have a look to see if the photo of the test setup would give
any clues, but not obviously...

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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

On 01/11/2019 08:46, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 10:56:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 31/10/2019 09:59, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used to measure the
power used. Gass is pretty easy since it relies on flow,


Gas also varies in energy content, so knowing the volume metered is not
quite enough information to work out what to bill for. Hence the
conversion fiddle factors included in your gas bill.

but Electricity can
be influenced by the phase of the current draw in the AC voltage waveform,
and there have been questions before on what is the most accurate way to
deal with this aspect.


Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only the
instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive currents. How
good they are with with modern loads with poor power factors caused by
high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs) rather than a more
traditional phase shift is perhaps a more interesting question.

KWh, KVa and KVar meters (Spinning disk) are/were available.


Were... and the latter two were not typically installed in domestic
settings.


--
Cheers,

John.

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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

On 31/10/2019 15:45, Robin wrote:
On 31/10/2019 15:06, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bill Wright submitted this idea :
It's ********. The govt are saying that the reason for charging more
for non-smart meter use is the cost of meter reading. But I read my
own meter and send the figure to the company.


Even with smart meters, they still come round and read them..


Sometimes, somewhere.* Our electricity meter has not been seen by a
reader since first smart meter was fitted in 2012.* Before that it was a
routine event. (Well this /is/ Hackney.)


BG send someone from a 3rd party company to read my gas meter
twice a year. It's the same bloke and I always shout out the
reading from a window to him. It's been 2566 since 2003 :-).

He says he will stick a postit note on his dashboard with the
reading in future and avoid the journey.


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On 01/11/2019 03:15, FMurtz wrote:
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment



You know it's coming.Â* Before we had a water meter, our monthly bill
was £60.Â* As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40.Â* Hard not to
believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was because
the previous bill was based on the rateable value.Â* Smart meters will
make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price when I want to
cook the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it.Â* My mum and
dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without power for a
day, because 'something got broke'.Â* And they /still/ have to read it
themselves, because they changed supplier.Â* Plus, I would have to take
a day off work.

The end result of smart meters is to make more money.


... from people with electric cars :-)
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On 01/11/2019 12:26, Fredxx wrote:
On 31/10/2019 07:44:36, harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment


Hardly compulsory. You still have a choice.

There are also alternative suppliers who will set bills accordingly.


Depends on how "huge" are the "hikes".

"Your money or your life" is /a/ choice (except the highwayman/footpad
will get your money either way).

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On Friday, 1 November 2019 14:18:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/11/2019 08:46, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 10:56:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 31/10/2019 09:59, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used to measure the
power used. Gass is pretty easy since it relies on flow,

Gas also varies in energy content, so knowing the volume metered is not
quite enough information to work out what to bill for. Hence the
conversion fiddle factors included in your gas bill.

but Electricity can
be influenced by the phase of the current draw in the AC voltage waveform,
and there have been questions before on what is the most accurate way to
deal with this aspect.

Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only the
instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive currents. How
good they are with with modern loads with poor power factors caused by
high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs) rather than a more
traditional phase shift is perhaps a more interesting question.

KWh, KVa and KVar meters (Spinning disk) are/were available.


Were... and the latter two were not typically installed in domestic
settings.

They were installed in commercial locations.
They were additionally charged for bad power factor which could be determined by the difference between Kwh and Kva.
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On Friday, 1 November 2019 15:46:45 UTC, Andrew wrote:
On 31/10/2019 15:45, Robin wrote:
On 31/10/2019 15:06, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bill Wright submitted this idea :
It's ********. The govt are saying that the reason for charging more
for non-smart meter use is the cost of meter reading. But I read my
own meter and send the figure to the company.

Even with smart meters, they still come round and read them..


Sometimes, somewhere.Â* Our electricity meter has not been seen by a
reader since first smart meter was fitted in 2012.Â* Before that it was a
routine event. (Well this /is/ Hackney.)


BG send someone from a 3rd party company to read my gas meter
twice a year. It's the same bloke and I always shout out the
reading from a window to him. It's been 2566 since 2003 :-).

He says he will stick a postit note on his dashboard with the
reading in future and avoid the journey.


You could be charged a rental fee for that meter.
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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

On 01/11/2019 17:15, harry wrote:
On Friday, 1 November 2019 14:18:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/11/2019 08:46, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 10:56:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 31/10/2019 09:59, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used to measure the
power used. Gass is pretty easy since it relies on flow,

Gas also varies in energy content, so knowing the volume metered is not
quite enough information to work out what to bill for. Hence the
conversion fiddle factors included in your gas bill.

but Electricity can
be influenced by the phase of the current draw in the AC voltage waveform,
and there have been questions before on what is the most accurate way to
deal with this aspect.

Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only the
instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive currents. How
good they are with with modern loads with poor power factors caused by
high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs) rather than a more
traditional phase shift is perhaps a more interesting question.

KWh, KVa and KVar meters (Spinning disk) are/were available.


Were... and the latter two were not typically installed in domestic
settings.

They were installed in commercial locations.


They still are.

They were additionally charged for bad power factor which could be determined by the difference between Kwh and Kva.


and possibly peak load as well.


--
Cheers,

John.

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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment



You know it's coming.Â* Before we had a water meter, our monthly
bill was £60.Â* As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40.Â* Hard
not to believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was
because the previous bill was based on the rateable value.Â* Smart
meters will make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price when
I want to cook the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it.Â* My mum
and dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without power
for a day, because 'something got broke'.Â* And they /still/ have to
read it themselves, because they changed supplier.Â* Plus, I would
have to take a day off work.


The end result of smart meters is to make more money.


Save on the cost of reading the meter, actually.
And to make a time of use tariff possible to OFFER.

And the end result will be more money
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"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment


You know it's coming. Before we had a water meter, our monthly bill
was £60. As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40. Hard not to
believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was because
the previous bill was based on the rateable value. Smart meters will
make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price when I want to cook
the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it. My mum and
dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without power for a
day, because 'something got broke'. And they /still/ have to read it
themselves, because they changed supplier. Plus, I would have to take
a day off work.


The end result of smart meters is to make more money.


Save on the cost of reading the meter, actually.
And to make a time of use tariff possible to OFFER.


And the end result will be more money


Not necessarily.

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Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment



You know it's coming.Â* Before we had a water meter, our monthly
bill was £60.Â* As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40.
Hard not to believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was
because the previous bill was based on the rateable value.Â* Smart
meters will make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price
when I want to cook the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it.Â* My mum
and dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without power
for a day, because 'something got broke'.Â* And they /still/ have to
read it themselves, because they changed supplier.Â* Plus, I would
have to take a day off work.

The end result of smart meters is to make more money.

Save on the cost of reading the meter, actually.
And to make a time of use tariff possible to OFFER.


And the end result will be more money


Not necessarily.

So the power suppliers are pushing it out of the goodness of their
heart?
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"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment


You know it's coming. Before we had a water meter, our monthly
bill was £60. As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40. Hard
not to believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was
because the previous bill was based on the rateable value. Smart
meters will make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price when
I want to cook the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it. My mum
and dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without power
for a day, because 'something got broke'. And they /still/ have to
read it themselves, because they changed supplier. Plus, I would
have to take a day off work.

The end result of smart meters is to make more money.

Save on the cost of reading the meter, actually.
And to make a time of use tariff possible to OFFER.


And the end result will be more money


Not necessarily.

So the power suppliers are pushing it out of the goodness of their heart?


Nope, so they can offer lower rates because they
dont have to pay the meter readers and attract
customers that way.

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On Friday, 1 November 2019 21:02:03 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/11/2019 17:15, harry wrote:
On Friday, 1 November 2019 14:18:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/11/2019 08:46, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 10:56:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 31/10/2019 09:59, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used to measure the
power used. Gass is pretty easy since it relies on flow,

Gas also varies in energy content, so knowing the volume metered is not
quite enough information to work out what to bill for. Hence the
conversion fiddle factors included in your gas bill.

but Electricity can
be influenced by the phase of the current draw in the AC voltage waveform,
and there have been questions before on what is the most accurate way to
deal with this aspect.

Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only the
instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive currents. How
good they are with with modern loads with poor power factors caused by
high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs) rather than a more
traditional phase shift is perhaps a more interesting question.

KWh, KVa and KVar meters (Spinning disk) are/were available.

Were... and the latter two were not typically installed in domestic
settings.

They were installed in commercial locations.


They still are.

They were additionally charged for bad power factor which could be determined by the difference between Kwh and Kva.


and possibly peak load as well.


--
Cheers,

John.


No, that can't be determined from these meters.
Peak load was determined from separate ammeters with loose and fixed needles. The loose one was pushed by the fixed one to indicate max amps.
Hot wire ammeter were used giving an approx delay of 20min.


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Default Lonely Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert! LOL

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 15:01:06 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, pontificated, again:


And the end result will be more money


Not necessarily.


You are such an unbelievable sick asshole, senile Rodent! LOL

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:
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On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 15:40:35 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


So the power suppliers are pushing it out of the goodness of their heart?


Nope, so they can offer lower rates because they
don¢t have to pay the meter readers and attract
customers that way.


Take your geriatric meds, you clinically insane, auto-contradicting,
cantankerous, senile cretin!

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:
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Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment



You know it's coming.Â* Before we had a water meter, our monthly
bill was £60.Â* As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40.
Hard not to believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was
because the previous bill was based on the rateable value.
Smart meters will make it very easy for suppliers to raise the
price when I want to cook the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it.Â* My
mum and dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without
power for a day, because 'something got broke'.Â* And they /still/
have to read it themselves, because they changed supplier.Â* Plus,
I would have to take a day off work.

The end result of smart meters is to make more money.

Save on the cost of reading the meter, actually.
And to make a time of use tariff possible to OFFER.

And the end result will be more money

Not necessarily.

So the power suppliers are pushing it out of the goodness of their
heart?


Nope, so they can offer lower rates because they
dont have to pay the meter readers and attract
customers that way.

I am afraid that I do not believe that the savings would be passed on
without an ulterior motive aimed at more profits for the shareholders.
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On 02/11/2019 06:53, harry wrote:
On Friday, 1 November 2019 21:02:03 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/11/2019 17:15, harry wrote:
On Friday, 1 November 2019 14:18:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/11/2019 08:46, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 10:56:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 31/10/2019 09:59, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Yes one issue that has come up though is the method used
to measure the power used. Gass is pretty easy since it
relies on flow,

Gas also varies in energy content, so knowing the volume
metered is not quite enough information to work out what to
bill for. Hence the conversion fiddle factors included in
your gas bill.

but Electricity can be influenced by the phase of the
current draw in the AC voltage waveform, and there have
been questions before on what is the most accurate way
to deal with this aspect.

Domestic meters have historically been quite good at
measuring only the instantaneous real power transfer, and
ignoring reactive currents. How good they are with with
modern loads with poor power factors caused by high
harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs) rather than a
more traditional phase shift is perhaps a more interesting
question.

KWh, KVa and KVar meters (Spinning disk) are/were available.

Were... and the latter two were not typically installed in
domestic settings.
They were installed in commercial locations.


They still are.

They were additionally charged for bad power factor which could
be determined by the difference between Kwh and Kva.


and possibly peak load as well.


-- Cheers,

John.


No, that can't be determined from these meters.


I was not suggesting it can. You (rather pointlessly giving the topic of
discussion) mentioned that commercial users could have kVA / kVAr
metering - but did so in such as way as to imply this was historical. I
was correcting this.

You correctly mention that commercial uses may have to pay more for low
power factors. I simply added that some will also pay (at least
partially) based on peak load. I made no suggestion as to how this was
assessed or metered.

Some may also receive discounts or concessions if they agree to become
part of the Demand Side Response market - basically agreeing increase,
decrease, or time shift their electrical demand on the grid based on
requests by the grid, to help them better manage varying loads and
supplies.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 15:47:11 +0000, Andrew wrote:

The end result of smart meters is to make more money.


... from people with electric cars :-)


Well HMG has got to get the (substantial amount of) money they
currently get from fuel duty from somewhere...

--
Cheers
Dave.





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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?



"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml#newcomment


You know it's coming. Before we had a water meter, our monthly
bill was £60. As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40.
Hard not to believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was
because the previous bill was based on the rateable value. Smart
meters will make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price
when I want to cook the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it. My mum
and dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without power
for a day, because 'something got broke'. And they /still/ have to
read it themselves, because they changed supplier. Plus, I would
have to take a day off work.

The end result of smart meters is to make more money.

Save on the cost of reading the meter, actually.
And to make a time of use tariff possible to OFFER.

And the end result will be more money

Not necessarily.
So the power suppliers are pushing it out of the goodness of their
heart?


Nope, so they can offer lower rates because they
dont have to pay the meter readers and attract
customers that way.


I am afraid that I do not believe that the savings would be passed on
without an ulterior motive aimed at more profits for the shareholders.


More fool you. The obvious reason to pass on the savings
with no meter readers is to make their operation more
competitive and to attract more customers that way
and that is good for the shareholders and the share price.



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Default Lonely Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert! LOL

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 03:57:45 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


More fool you.


Says the clinically insane fool who is actually idiotic enough to get up
EVERY NIGHT between 1 and 4 am in Australia, just so he has someone to talk
to, as everyone in real life gives him the cold shoulder!

--
Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rot:
"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID:
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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 01:46:00 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Thursday, 31 October 2019 10:56:12 UTC, John Rumm wrote:

Domestic meters have historically been quite good at measuring only the
instantaneous real power transfer, and ignoring reactive currents. How
good they are with with modern loads with poor power factors caused by
high harmonic content (like many small SMPSUs) rather than a more
traditional phase shift is perhaps a more interesting question.

KWh, KVa and KVar meters (Spinning disk) are/were available.


Almost every commercial user in the UK with a max demand over 100 kVA will have
been on electronic metering, with remote 'dial-up' access, for around 20 years.

--
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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

In article , Chris J Dixon
writes
nightjar wrote:

Meters have always been replaced as their calibration periods expire. It
has always been inevitable that it would reach the point where only
smart meters were available. However, at present, you can still have the
smart function disabled.


I guess the way they will go is to introduce tariffs which
require a smart meter, and will be the cheapest overall.

Chris



They already have.
--
bert
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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

In article , FMurtz
writes
Rod Speed wrote:
"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...omeowners-refu
se-install-smart-meter-face-huge-hike-energy-bills.html#newcomment


You know it's coming.* Before we had a water meter, our monthly
bill was £60.* As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40.
Hard not to believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was
because the previous bill was based on the rateable value.* Smart
meters will make it very easy for suppliers to raise the price
when I want to cook the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it.* My
mum and dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without
power for a day, because 'something got broke'.* And they /still/
have to read it themselves, because they changed supplier.* Plus,
I would have to take a day off work.

The end result of smart meters is to make more money.

Save on the cost of reading the meter, actually.
And to make a time of use tariff possible to OFFER.


And the end result will be more money

Not necessarily.

So the power suppliers are pushing it out of the goodness of their
heart?

Nope. They are pushing it because they have been told to do so by EU
directive in the stupid belief that it will reduce demand.
The reality is it does so for about 1 month when customers get bored
with checking it and the annual saving becomes about £11.
--
bert


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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

On 05/11/2019 19:57, bert wrote:
In article , FMurtz
writes
Rod Speed wrote:
"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:
On 31/10/2019 12:10, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...omeowners-refu
se-install-smart-meter-face-huge-hike-energy-bills.html#newcomment



You know it's coming. Before we had a water meter, our monthly
bill was £60. As soon as one was fitted, it dropped to £40.
Hard not to believe that we were simply being penalised.

My water bill reduced when I had a meter fitted, but that was
because the previous bill was based on the rateable value.
Smart meters will make it very easy for suppliers to raise the
price when I want to cook the dinner in the evening.


Well, I'm going to wait as long as I can get away with it. My
mum and dad had a smart meter fitted last year, and were without
power for a day, because 'something got broke'. And they
/still/ have to read it themselves, because they changed
supplier. Plus, I would have to take a day off work.

The end result of smart meters is to make more money.

Save on the cost of reading the meter, actually.
And to make a time of use tariff possible to OFFER.

And the end result will be more money
Not necessarily.

So the power suppliers are pushing it out of the goodness of their
heart?

Nope. They are pushing it because they have been told to do so by EU
directive in the stupid belief that it will reduce demand.
The reality is it does so for about 1 month when customers get bored
with checking it and the annual saving becomes about £11.



My worry with Smart is, it's remotely switchable; remotely hackable
and, an internet complaints line on a PC that isn't battery operated.

You can be without electric for many reasons, from burglars to a
disagreement between you and energy supplier/reseller staff at the other
end of a phone. Of course, they are not entitled to switch you off in
such a way but, accidents do happen and, can take a long time to
resolve. Your arguments are going to be tentative.

But, I do look forward to joining the on-line masses that gather to
bargain a price.


....Ray.

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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

On 20/11/2019 21:00, RayL12 wrote:
On 05/11/2019 19:57, bert wrote:


Nope. They are pushing it because they have been told to do so by EU
directive in the stupid belief that it will reduce demand.
The reality is it does so for about 1 month when customers get bored
with checking it and the annual saving becomes about £11.



*My worry with Smart is, it's remotely switchable; remotely hackable
and, an internet complaints line on a PC that isn't battery operated.

*You can be without electric for many reasons, from burglars to a
disagreement between you and energy supplier/reseller staff at the other
end of a phone. Of course, they are not entitled to switch you off in
such a way but, accidents do happen and, can take a long time to
resolve. Your arguments are going to be tentative.


There's also the way they could (in future versions) bump up the unit
cost just while you want to cook your dinner, probably without adequate
notice.

*But, I do look forward to joining the on-line masses that gather to
bargain a price.


Do what?

--
Max Demian
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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

On 20/11/2019 22:31, Max Demian wrote:
On 20/11/2019 21:00, RayL12 wrote:
On 05/11/2019 19:57, bert wrote:


Nope. They are pushing it because they have been told to do so by EU
directive in the stupid belief that it will reduce demand.
The reality is it does so for about 1 month when customers get bored
with checking it and the annual saving becomes about £11.



My worry with Smart is, it's remotely switchable; remotely hackable
and, an internet complaints line on a PC that isn't battery operated.

You can be without electric for many reasons, from burglars to a
disagreement between you and energy supplier/reseller staff at the
other end of a phone. Of course, they are not entitled to switch you
off in such a way but, accidents do happen and, can take a long time
to resolve. Your arguments are going to be tentative.


There's also the way they could (in future versions) bump up the unit
cost just while you want to cook your dinner, probably without adequate
notice.

But, I do look forward to joining the on-line masses that gather to
bargain a price.


Do what?

People join together on line in their thousands and promise a supplier
they will transfer their custom at an agreed price fixed over a given
period on a given date. I have seen such.


....Ray.
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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?



"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On 20/11/2019 21:00, RayL12 wrote:
On 05/11/2019 19:57, bert wrote:


Nope. They are pushing it because they have been told to do so by EU
directive in the stupid belief that it will reduce demand.
The reality is it does so for about 1 month when customers get bored
with checking it and the annual saving becomes about £11.



My worry with Smart is, it's remotely switchable; remotely hackable
and, an internet complaints line on a PC that isn't battery operated.

You can be without electric for many reasons, from burglars to a
disagreement between you and energy supplier/reseller staff at the other
end of a phone. Of course, they are not entitled to switch you off in
such a way but, accidents do happen and, can take a long time to resolve.
Your arguments are going to be tentative.


There's also the way they could (in future versions) bump up the unit cost
just while you want to cook your dinner, probably without adequate notice.


You don’t have to sign up for a time of use tariff.

But, I do look forward to joining the on-line masses that gather to
bargain a price.


Do what?



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Default Lonely Auto-contradicting Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:50:07 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

There's also the way they could (in future versions) bump up the unit cost
just while you want to cook your dinner, probably without adequate notice.


You don¢t have to sign up for a time of use tariff.


g In auto-contradicting mode again, you abnormal nym-shifting senile
troll?

--
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"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:



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Default Smart meters to be compulsary?

On 21/11/2019 02:12, RayL12 wrote:
On 20/11/2019 22:31, Max Demian wrote:
On 20/11/2019 21:00, RayL12 wrote:
On 05/11/2019 19:57, bert wrote:


Nope. They are pushing it because they have been told to do so by EU
directive in the stupid belief that it will reduce demand.
The reality is it does so for about 1 month when customers get bored
with checking it and the annual saving becomes about £11.


* My worry with Smart is, it's remotely switchable; remotely hackable
and, an internet complaints line on a PC that isn't battery operated.

* You can be without electric for many reasons, from burglars to a
disagreement between you and energy supplier/reseller staff at the
other end of a phone. Of course, they are not entitled to switch you
off in such a way but, accidents do happen and, can take a long time
to resolve. Your arguments are going to be tentative.


There's also the way they could (in future versions) bump up the unit
cost just while you want to cook your dinner, probably without adequate
notice.

* But, I do look forward to joining the on-line masses that gather to
bargain a price.


Do what?

*People join together on line in their thousands and promise a supplier
they will transfer their custom at an agreed price fixed over a given
period on a given date. I have seen such.


...Ray.


Many years ago there was an experimental system where the houses on a
new estate were connected and the computer negotiated a new price and
switched supplier every 15 minutes or so. Now that would be very useful
- so not surprising that we're actually getting the exact opposite

SteveW

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