I'm looking to replace the interior doors in the house we're moving in
to. We are buying glazed and unglazed knotted pine doors and having a
joiner fit them.

I am considering a stain or combined varnish and stain to enhance the
appearance of the doors. I am looking for a lightish stain, or even a
cherry wood type effect.

Any advice or recommendations?


K

anon wrote:
I am considering a stain or combined varnish and stain to
enhance the appearance of the [knotty pine ] doors. I am
looking for a lightish stain, or even a cherry wood type
effect. Any advice or recommendations?

Are these cheap (less than =A320 from B&Q) doors? If so, pick
them carefully to get the best ones - get several off the rack
and check they're not twisted (lie them on the floor or just
eye them up). After that, examine them carefully for damage
or poor machining, especially troughs where the timber has
been through the planer, and damage to the mouldings. If you
find any good ones, proceed. Look at the position of the knots,
you don't want ones on one face of the stiles only, as the knot
will tend to cause distortion on drying - the timber will try
to "bend" towards that face. Knots on the edge, or that go
straight through, are OK. Assuming any doors pass this
inspection, then prop them up in a line, and examine the
general "look" of the doors. Pick the best ones.

Don't use coloured varnish if you can possibly avoid it. It
will obscure the grain, and when it chips you will get light
patches showing. Instead, use a spirit stain such as "Colron",
which is available in a number of shades. You can mix these
together to vary the colour (if you do this, mix enough to do
all of a door or doors, so you don't have to mix another batch
part-way through doing a door). Wipe it on using a soaked
clean cotton rag (wear gloves or your skin will stain). It's
a *very* good idea to mask off around the door with a dust
sheet or something to prevent getting stain on anything. When
the stain is dry (allow plenty of time) rub the door over
with a clean cloth, and apply clear varnish - two coats may
be enough. Again, use *exterior* varnish, the sort you clean
off your brushes with white spirit, don't use quick-drying
water-washing varish. You should de-nib the result (rub off
lumps and pimples caused by dust etc. in the varnish) when
the first two coats are fully dry, using fine-grade paper
used on a sanding block, by hand, going very lightly - you
want to flat the surface, not sand it off. When that's done,
apply a coat of either gloss or matt varnish to finish it off.


J.B.

Thanks alot, actually we're looking at getting some wickes doors. I
hope they pass the tests below!


K














On 5 Aug 2004 11:14:11 -0000, Jerry Built
wrote:

anon wrote:
I am considering a stain or combined varnish and stain to
enhance the appearance of the [knotty pine ] doors. I am
looking for a lightish stain, or even a cherry wood type
effect. Any advice or recommendations?

Are these cheap (less than =A320 from B&Q) doors? If so, pick
them carefully to get the best ones - get several off the rack
and check they're not twisted (lie them on the floor or just
eye them up). After that, examine them carefully for damage
or poor machining, especially troughs where the timber has
been through the planer, and damage to the mouldings. If you
find any good ones, proceed. Look at the position of the knots,
you don't want ones on one face of the stiles only, as the knot
will tend to cause distortion on drying - the timber will try
to "bend" towards that face. Knots on the edge, or that go
straight through, are OK. Assuming any doors pass this
inspection, then prop them up in a line, and examine the
general "look" of the doors. Pick the best ones.

Don't use coloured varnish if you can possibly avoid it. It
will obscure the grain, and when it chips you will get light
patches showing. Instead, use a spirit stain such as "Colron",
which is available in a number of shades. You can mix these
together to vary the colour (if you do this, mix enough to do
all of a door or doors, so you don't have to mix another batch
part-way through doing a door). Wipe it on using a soaked
clean cotton rag (wear gloves or your skin will stain). It's
a *very* good idea to mask off around the door with a dust
sheet or something to prevent getting stain on anything. When
the stain is dry (allow plenty of time) rub the door over
with a clean cloth, and apply clear varnish - two coats may
be enough. Again, use *exterior* varnish, the sort you clean
off your brushes with white spirit, don't use quick-drying
water-washing varish. You should de-nib the result (rub off
lumps and pimples caused by dust etc. in the varnish) when
the first two coats are fully dry, using fine-grade paper
used on a sanding block, by hand, going very lightly - you
want to flat the surface, not sand it off. When that's done,
apply a coat of either gloss or matt varnish to finish it off.


J.B.

"Jerry Built" wrote in message
...
anon wrote:
I am considering a stain or combined varnish and stain to
enhance the appearance of the [knotty pine ] doors. I am
looking for a lightish stain, or even a cherry wood type
effect. Any advice or recommendations?

Are these cheap (less than =A320 from B&Q) doors? If so, pick
them carefully to get the best ones - get several off the rack
and check they're not twisted (lie them on the floor or just
eye them up). After that, examine them carefully for damage
or poor machining, especially troughs where the timber has
been through the planer, and damage to the mouldings. If you
find any good ones, proceed. Look at the position of the knots,
you don't want ones on one face of the stiles only, as the knot
will tend to cause distortion on drying - the timber will try
to "bend" towards that face. Knots on the edge, or that go
straight through, are OK. Assuming any doors pass this
inspection, then prop them up in a line, and examine the
general "look" of the doors. Pick the best ones.

I'd aggree with Jerry on that.. We had to take the ones we got from B&Q back
they were so bad.
Went to Magnet in the end and got the their clear pine ones. Much better and
not much more expensive if you chat them up to get the trade price..

anon wrote in message . ..
I'm looking to replace the interior doors in the house we're moving in
to. We are buying glazed and unglazed knotted pine doors and having a
joiner fit them.

I am considering a stain or combined varnish and stain to enhance the
appearance of the doors. I am looking for a lightish stain, or even a
cherry wood type effect.

Any advice or recommendations?


Yep, dont. Tinted varnish is the worst. It chips in time, and all the
chipped bits show up light against the darker background. Soon looks
terrible.

Staining kills the beautiful patterning of the wood. Its better to let
the wood darken by itself naturally. Its slow but the result is
wonderful, and makes stained pine look sad by comparison.

Regards, NT

In message , BillV
writes

"Jerry Built" wrote in message
. ..
anon wrote:
I am considering a stain or combined varnish and stain to
enhance the appearance of the [knotty pine ] doors. I am
looking for a lightish stain, or even a cherry wood type
effect. Any advice or recommendations?

Are these cheap (less than =A320 from B&Q) doors? If so, pick
them carefully to get the best ones - get several off the rack
and check they're not twisted (lie them on the floor or just
eye them up). After that, examine them carefully for damage
or poor machining, especially troughs where the timber has
been through the planer, and damage to the mouldings. If you
find any good ones, proceed. Look at the position of the knots,
you don't want ones on one face of the stiles only, as the knot
will tend to cause distortion on drying - the timber will try
to "bend" towards that face. Knots on the edge, or that go
straight through, are OK. Assuming any doors pass this
inspection, then prop them up in a line, and examine the
general "look" of the doors. Pick the best ones.

I'd aggree with Jerry on that.. We had to take the ones we got from B&Q back
they were so bad.
Went to Magnet in the end and got the their clear pine ones. Much better and
not much more expensive if you chat them up to get the trade price..


Definitely good advise.
The cheap pine doors are crap. BTDTBTTS.
Given that clear pine doors can now be found for ~£50, which looks
better, and more importantly will be more stable, it's not worth the
effort of fitting & varnishing the cheapies, or paying someone to do it.
--
Steve

N. Thornton wrote:

anon wrote in message . ..

I'm looking to replace the interior doors in the house we're moving in
to. We are buying glazed and unglazed knotted pine doors and having a
joiner fit them.

I am considering a stain or combined varnish and stain to enhance the
appearance of the doors. I am looking for a lightish stain, or even a
cherry wood type effect.

Any advice or recommendations?



Yep, dont. Tinted varnish is the worst. It chips in time, and all the
chipped bits show up light against the darker background. Soon looks
terrible.

Staining kills the beautiful patterning of the wood. Its better to let
the wood darken by itself naturally. Its slow but the result is
wonderful, and makes stained pine look sad by comparison.

Regards, NT

All pine looks more or less dreadful.

Paint the ****ers.

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...

All pine looks more or less dreadful.

Paint the ****ers.

And here's me thinking people are mad to paint them. Pine is a
beautiful wood, especially when not stained. Paint isnt. Varnish
doesnt need regular redoing, paint does. Funny the variety our species
has!

Regards, NT

"N. Thornton" wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
All pine looks more or less dreadful.
=20
And here's me thinking people are mad to paint them. Pine is a
beautiful wood, especially when not stained. Paint isnt. Varnish
doesnt need regular redoing, paint does. Funny the variety our
species has!

You can get "clear" doors from B&Q it or whoever at about double
the cost of knotty pine ones - they do look better (=A340-ish
instead of =A320-ish). If you varnish the door, and then don't
like it, you can always paint it (although you need to apply
knotting appropriately first). Note - in the past, I've been
able to get white gloss off varnished boards using a steam
wallpaper stripper and a filling knife!


J.B.

On 5 Aug 2004 11:14:11 -0000, Jerry Built
wrote:

.. Look at the position of the knots,
you don't want ones on one face of the stiles only, as the knot
will tend to cause distortion on drying - the timber will try
to "bend" towards that face. Knots on the edge, or that go
straight through, are OK.


The day has come to buy the doors, can you explain the above a little
more please?

The original post was asking about choosing Knotted pine doors for
internal use.



K

anon wrote:
Jerry Built wrote:
[about choosing doors] Look at the position of the knots,
you don't want ones on one face of the stiles only, as the knot
will tend to cause distortion on drying - the timber will try
to "bend" towards that face. Knots on the edge, or that go
straight through, are OK.

The day has come to buy the doors, can you explain the above a
little more please?

OK. Look at the door, and you will see that the members that
"frame" the panels are made out of (say) 1 1/4" x 4" timbers.
The stiles are the long timbers at the edges - the cross-pieces
are the rails. Now, the stiles are the most important, but the
top and bottom rails are important too, followed by the centre
rail(s). Take the stiles first, and look at where (and how big)
the knots are. If a knot on the wide surface of a stile goes
straight through, more or less straight, it's unlikely to cause
the door to distort. A knot that goes through but has been cut
through on one edge of the stile, and exposed, is probably OK
too - but a similar knot on the wide face of the stile will
cause distortion as the timber dries (which it will). I'll
try some ASCII art, prepare to adjust your font:

___________
/ /|
/ / |
/__________/ |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| O | | - This one goes through & is OK.
| | /|
| |/ |
| C| | - This one is exposed on the thin edge (cut
| | | through & is OK.
| | |
| | |
|##########| | - This is *not* OK. The knot is exposed on all
| | | or part only of the wide face, and will cause
| | | the stile to bend
| | |
| | |
| | |


It's also worth taking note of the position of any knots relative
to the position of door furniture.


J.B.

anon wrote in message . ..
On 5 Aug 2004 11:14:11 -0000, Jerry Built
wrote:

. Look at the position of the knots,
you don't want ones on one face of the stiles only, as the knot
will tend to cause distortion on drying - the timber will try
to "bend" towards that face. Knots on the edge, or that go
straight through, are OK.


The day has come to buy the doors, can you explain the above a little
more please?

a small percentage of knots shrink at a different rate to the rest of
the wood, resulting in warping.

anon wrote in message . ..
Thanks alot, actually we're looking at getting some wickes doors. I
hope they pass the tests below!




On 5 Aug 2004 11:14:11 -0000, Jerry Built
wrote:

anon wrote:
I am considering a stain or combined varnish and stain to
enhance the appearance of the [knotty pine ] doors. I am
looking for a lightish stain, or even a cherry wood type
effect. Any advice or recommendations?



My experience with stains is mixed. Preferred method is to paint the
raw pine with shellac to stop the wood absorbing too much stain then
use a darker stain than usual - like mahogany colour. Very little
stain will actually soak in, giving the nice bland knotty pine look
just like you see in the kitchen showrooms, which will also darken
over time. If the stain is used directly on pine the final result
looks like black pudding IMHO.

luggsie

That must ahve taken you a while, thank you for your effort and help.
I now have 8 doors, 4 glazed and 4 unglazed in the garage. At this
stage I'm planning to varnish (not water based varnish) the top and
bottom surfaces of the doors prior to hanging. Then varnishing the
rest of the doors after the joiner has hung the doors. Any more tips
from the group?


Thanks JB.


K

On 1 Sep 2004 15:04:08 -0000, Jerry Built
wrote:

anon wrote:
Jerry Built wrote:
[about choosing doors] Look at the position of the knots,
you don't want ones on one face of the stiles only, as the knot
will tend to cause distortion on drying - the timber will try
to "bend" towards that face. Knots on the edge, or that go
straight through, are OK.

The day has come to buy the doors, can you explain the above a
little more please?

OK. Look at the door, and you will see that the members that
"frame" the panels are made out of (say) 1 1/4" x 4" timbers.
The stiles are the long timbers at the edges - the cross-pieces
are the rails. Now, the stiles are the most important, but the
top and bottom rails are important too, followed by the centre
rail(s). Take the stiles first, and look at where (and how big)
the knots are. If a knot on the wide surface of a stile goes
straight through, more or less straight, it's unlikely to cause
the door to distort. A knot that goes through but has been cut
through on one edge of the stile, and exposed, is probably OK
too - but a similar knot on the wide face of the stile will
cause distortion as the timber dries (which it will). I'll
try some ASCII art, prepare to adjust your font:

___________
/ /|
/ / |
/__________/ |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| O | | - This one goes through & is OK.
| | /|
| |/ |
| C| | - This one is exposed on the thin edge (cut
| | | through & is OK.
| | |
| | |
|##########| | - This is *not* OK. The knot is exposed on all
| | | or part only of the wide face, and will cause
| | | the stile to bend
| | |
| | |
| | |


It's also worth taking note of the position of any knots relative
to the position of door furniture.


J.B.

N. Thornton wrote:

anon wrote in message . ..

On 5 Aug 2004 11:14:11 -0000, Jerry Built
wrote:


. Look at the position of the knots,

you don't want ones on one face of the stiles only, as the knot
will tend to cause distortion on drying - the timber will try
to "bend" towards that face. Knots on the edge, or that go
straight through, are OK.


The day has come to buy the doors, can you explain the above a little
more please?


a small percentage of knots shrink at a different rate to the rest of
the wood, resulting in warping.

Sound cobblers to me. Knots that shrink just fall out.

Waroing is simply caused by differential expansion of the wood, and is
almost inevitable with crap like Pine.

Unless you carefully select quarter sawn planks (which don't actully
look good grain wise) you wll get warping between summer and winter
humidity levels.

The reaosn teh victorians paibnted pine is because its crap. It moves,
it has knots that bleed resin, requiring knottong to be applied, and its
very poor n abrasion resistance.

If they wanted a decent wood, they used mahogany. Oak isn't bad either,
and things like Maplem Yew, Elm, Cherry and Pear are all much better
loolking and more stable than Pine.

Ther is only ONE reason people use pine, and thats cos its cheap and
grows fast.

As for staining it? Shudder. Just a stupid fashion.

Avocado bath suite anyone?

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...
N. Thornton wrote:

a small percentage of knots shrink at a different rate to the rest of
the wood, resulting in warping.

Sound cobblers to me. Knots that shrink just fall out.

Waroing is simply caused by differential expansion of the wood, and is
almost inevitable with crap like Pine.

that occurs too, but most often pine bends at a knot due to
differential expansion of knot vs the rest of the wood. But bear in
mind only a minority of knots cause warping, most never do.

Unless you carefully select quarter sawn planks (which don't actully
look good grain wise) you wll get warping between summer and winter
humidity levels.

not with pine indoors.

The reaosn teh victorians paibnted pine is because its crap. It moves,
it has knots that bleed resin, requiring knottong to be applied,

only needed if youre painting it, and it looks far nicer clear
varnished.


Ther is only ONE reason people use pine, and thats cos its cheap and
grows fast.

and looks absolutely lovely! - as long as you dont stain it.


NT

N. Thornton wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...

N. Thornton wrote:


a small percentage of knots shrink at a different rate to the rest of
the wood, resulting in warping.

Sound cobblers to me. Knots that shrink just fall out.

Waroing is simply caused by differential expansion of the wood, and is
almost inevitable with crap like Pine.


that occurs too, but most often pine bends at a knot due to
differential expansion of knot vs the rest of the wood. But bear in
mind only a minority of knots cause warping, most never do.


Unless you carefully select quarter sawn planks (which don't actully
look good grain wise) you wll get warping between summer and winter
humidity levels.


not with pine indoors.

Definitely with ANY wood indoors, pine more than most.

Summer humidity levels in yer average temperate zone house are 70-90%.

Winter is down at 15-25%.

One my pine matchboard I get distinct cupping and about 2mm shrinkage
PER BOARD across the grain in winter: Its all gone by the summer...

Guess why its painted...

The reaosn teh victorians paibnted pine is because its crap. It moves,
it has knots that bleed resin, requiring knottong to be applied,


only needed if youre painting it, and it looks far nicer clear
varnished.

Matter of opinion., Its about the worst wood for appearance I can think of.

Oh, and the knots will still bleed under the varnish. If they don't fall
out.

I knitted and filled all my T & G. So far touch wood (but NOT pine) the
paint surface is stable.




Ther is only ONE reason people use pine, and thats cos its cheap and
grows fast.


and looks absolutely lovely! - as long as you dont stain it.


Looks crap at best, vile if you stain it.

NT

Knots don't generally fall out of redwood, which is why it can be machined
to fine detail on mouldings. Whitewood knots are far less stable.

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...
N. Thornton wrote:

Unless you carefully select quarter sawn planks (which don't actully
look good grain wise) you wll get warping between summer and winter
humidity levels.

not with pine indoors.

Definitely with ANY wood indoors, pine more than most.

Summer humidity levels in yer average temperate zone house are 70-90%.

Winter is down at 15-25%.

here its damper in winter, due to more rain and less ventilation. I
dont know where you live of course.

Lets agree then: youve had problems with it, I never have.


Regards, NT

N. Thornton wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...

N. Thornton wrote:


Unless you carefully select quarter sawn planks (which don't actully
look good grain wise) you wll get warping between summer and winter
humidity levels.


not with pine indoors.


Definitely with ANY wood indoors, pine more than most.

Summer humidity levels in yer average temperate zone house are 70-90%.

Winter is down at 15-25%.


here its damper in winter, due to more rain and less ventilation. I
dont know where you live of course.

Not indoors. It doesn't rain in MY house. Only outside, and by the time
the CH has lifted the temp from 5C to 20C, the RH is way....down.

Perhaps you had better study a little on humidity indoors in winter.



Lets agree then: youve had problems with it, I never have.

Not problems. Just it happens. I used standard carpentry techniques to
minimise the effects.


Regards, NT

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...

Perhaps you had better study a little on humidity indoors in winter.

no, I do know what goes on in this house, and there is quite enough
evidence in the house for it. I dont think such condescension will
convince.

N. Thornton wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...


Perhaps you had better study a little on humidity indoors in winter.


no, I do know what goes on in this house, and there is quite enough
evidence in the house for it. I dont think such condescension will
convince.

Well, buy a humidity meter then.