On 22/09/2018 10:15, wrote:
On Friday, 21 September 2018 23:46:35 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
I'm guessing grommets wouldn't apply to a plastic backbox would they?

No, but given how sharp some plastics can be compared to PVC sheating, perhaps they should.

I used grommets on my meter tails into the CU to tidy up my manky drilled holes.


Metal CU?


--
Adam

On 23/09/2018 14:34, wrote:
On Sunday, 23 September 2018 11:38:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 10:09:14 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 September 2018 19:15:49 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 20/09/2018 21:27, tabbypurr wrote:


Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant
safety IRL. It would not upset me to see diyers omitting them. I
expect many do.



The lack of grommets or sleeving would see you loose your NICEIC
entitlement.

As with most things it's a mix of good rules and not so much ones.

Given how cheap a box of grommets and a hank of sleeving is, why would
you choose to omit them?

why are you claiming I choose to omit them?


Why bring the subject up, then? If you are saying you use them - but
think it perfectly OK for others not to? Especially since it doesn't
conform to current regs.

you're funny

And you are talking ********.



--
Adam

On Sunday, 23 September 2018 20:29:09 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
Metal CU?

Err, no :-(

Owain

On Sunday, 23 September 2018 20:52:13 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 23/09/2018 14:34, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 September 2018 11:38:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 10:09:14 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 September 2018 19:15:49 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 20/09/2018 21:27, tabbypurr wrote:


Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant
safety IRL. It would not upset me to see diyers omitting them. I
expect many do.



The lack of grommets or sleeving would see you loose your NICEIC
entitlement.

As with most things it's a mix of good rules and not so much ones.

Given how cheap a box of grommets and a hank of sleeving is, why would
you choose to omit them?

why are you claiming I choose to omit them?


Why bring the subject up, then? If you are saying you use them - but
think it perfectly OK for others not to? Especially since it doesn't
conform to current regs.

you're funny

And you are talking ********.

any claim in particlar that's '********'?

On 23/09/2018 18:33, Fredxx wrote:
On 20/09/2018 15:05, Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

nothing legally to stop you doing this in your own house.

or someone else's house, and even charging them for it.

Agreed for adding a spur.

But obviously, if only competent.

of course, it's an existing circuit, not in a "special location" so
part-P doesn't apply.

If it's easy to extend the ring then that could be seen as best, but
spurs are perfectly allowable, make sure the existing socket isn't
already a spur, spurs must be fused if they have more than one single
or double socket.

But putting pedantic hat on, this altering and extending a circuit so it
needs approval etc.

Installing a complete new circuit might count as notifiable, but
extending one outside of a "special location" does not.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/09/2018 18:32, Fredxx wrote:
On 20/09/2018 14:56, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 20/09/2018 14:20, T i m wrote:
Just a quick question.

What is the (legal?) position re me / one adding an extra double
socket (next to an existing) in a living room for / with a non d-i-y
mate?

You can do whatever you like in/to your own home, or indeed others homes
providing you're not acting as/in a commercial entity/capacity.

No you can't in a legal sense. You're getting confused with gas, even
then you need BC for changing a boiler.

You cannot legally add a circuit in your own home, nor can you legally
change your consumer unit for a safer one.

I think you are getting a bit confused. Firstly the OP is talking about
extending an existing circuit, not installing a new one. Since its not
in a special location (room containing bath / shower / sauna / pool),
that is not a notifiable job.

Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU, that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He would then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

All DIY electrical work in your home is legal. Some of it is notifiable.
All of it needs to be done to an adequate standard.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
T i m wrote:
My preferred method is to use a normal steel box. Fit wood battens either
side of the hole to the back of the plasterboard and fix the box to those.
That will never come away.

Good idea but that's assuming a plasterboard over stud or decent sized
battens. I'm not sure if this wall is all battens or dot-n-dab / mix
so the gap behind the plasterboard may not be sufficient (for the mini
battens). If it isn't then I'm probably going to have to chop out some
of the blockwork as well (but can then fix the box back to the wall).

Yes - if there is something solid behind the hole, fix to that.

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU, that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He would then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

I wonder how many DIYers competent to change their own CU would be
bothered doing any of that?

--
*Reality? Is that where the pizza delivery guy comes from?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, 24 September 2018 10:42:29 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU, that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He would then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

I wonder how many DIYers competent to change their own CU would be
bothered doing any of that?

I'm not finding the data, but somewhere ISTR seeing a figure of 0 diyers having had their local council dept inspect their work.


NT

On 24/09/2018 11:23, wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 10:42:29 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU, that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He would then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

I wonder how many DIYers competent to change their own CU would be
bothered doing any of that?

I'm not finding the data, but somewhere ISTR seeing a figure of 0 diyers having had their local council dept inspect their work.


I've just taken a quick look at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...s-to-your-home

Surprised at how much does:

€¢ installation of a new or replacement heating system or boiler,
regardless of fuel type
€¢ installation of a new or replacement oil tank
€¢ installation of a bathroom if new plumbing is installed or existing
plumbing is altered
€¢ installation of a fixed air conditioning system
€¢ addition of a radiator to an existing heating system (may not
need notifying in some circumstances)
€¢ installation of a new or replacement fuse box (or consumer unit)
or any new electrical circuit connected to the fuse box, and
alterations to electrical installations around a bath or shower
€¢ replacement of window and door units
€¢ replacement of roof coverings on pitched and flat roofs


--
Cheers, Rob

On 24/09/2018 11:35, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:23, wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 10:42:29 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)Â* wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* John Rumm wrote:
Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU, that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He would
then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

I wonder how many DIYers competent to change their own CU would be
bothered doing any of that?

I'm not finding the data, but somewhere ISTR seeing a figure of 0
diyers having had their local council dept inspect their work.


I've just taken a quick look at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...s-to-your-home


Surprised at how much does:

€¢ installation of a new or replacement heating system or boiler,
regardless of fuel type
€¢ installation of a new or replacement oil tank
€¢ installation of a bathroom if new plumbing is installed or existing
plumbing is altered
€¢ installation of a fixed air conditioning system
€¢ addition of a radiator to an existing heating system (may not
need notifying in some circumstances)
€¢ installation of a new or replacement fuse box (or consumer unit)
or any new electrical circuit connected to the fuse box, and
alterations to electrical installations around a bath or shower
€¢ replacement of window and door units
€¢ replacement of roof coverings on pitched and flat roofs


Flip - and if you do any of that in Sheffield, the charge for inspection
*application* is over £200 - then over £1000 for the inspection/notice.

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/content...s-charges.html


--
Cheers, Rob

On 24/09/2018 10:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
T i m wrote:
My preferred method is to use a normal steel box. Fit wood battens either
side of the hole to the back of the plasterboard and fix the box to those.
That will never come away.

Good idea but that's assuming a plasterboard over stud or decent sized
battens. I'm not sure if this wall is all battens or dot-n-dab / mix
so the gap behind the plasterboard may not be sufficient (for the mini
battens). If it isn't then I'm probably going to have to chop out some
of the blockwork as well (but can then fix the box back to the wall).

Yes - if there is something solid behind the hole, fix to that.

Or use a dry lining box, rather than a normal metal one.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/09/2018 11:23, wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 10:42:29 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU, that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He would then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

I wonder how many DIYers competent to change their own CU would be
bothered doing any of that?

I'm not finding the data, but somewhere ISTR seeing a figure of 0 diyers having had their local council dept inspect their work.

ISTR posting in the past, when I queried one of local BCOs how many
stand alone electrical building notices he got, after some thought the
answer was none so far. (although that was 10 years ago now, so they may
have had some since!

(and that was not just DIYers - that was building notices from any and all)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/09/2018 11:43, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:35, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:23, wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 10:42:29 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)Â* wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* John Rumm wrote:
Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU,
that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He would
then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to doing
the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

I wonder how many DIYers competent to change their own CU would be
bothered doing any of that?

I'm not finding the data, but somewhere ISTR seeing a figure of 0
diyers having had their local council dept inspect their work.


I've just taken a quick look at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...s-to-your-home


Surprised at how much does:

€¢ installation of a new or replacement heating system or boiler,
regardless of fuel type
€¢ installation of a new or replacement oil tank
€¢ installation of a bathroom if new plumbing is installed or existing
plumbing is altered
€¢ installation of a fixed air conditioning system
€¢ addition of a radiator to an existing heating system (may not
need notifying in some circumstances)
€¢ installation of a new or replacement fuse box (or consumer unit)
or any new electrical circuit connected to the fuse box, and
alterations to electrical installations around a bath or shower
€¢ replacement of window and door units
€¢ replacement of roof coverings on pitched and flat roofs


Flip - and if you do any of that in Sheffield, the charge for inspection
*application* is over £200 - then over £1000 for the inspection/notice.

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/content...s-charges.html

Last time I did a building notice, there were fees for submission, and
then fees for visits etc which were based on the commercial value of the
job being done. They were somewhat less than for a full plans submission
but still reasonably significant (several hundred at the time, on a job
with a commercial value of perhaps 8K)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/09/2018 03:54, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/09/2018 18:32, Fredxx wrote:
On 20/09/2018 14:56, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 20/09/2018 14:20, T i m wrote:
Just a quick question.

What is the (legal?) position re me / one adding an extra double
socket (next to an existing) in a living room for / with a non d-i-y
mate?

You can do whatever you like in/to your own home, or indeed others homes
providing you're not acting as/in a commercial entity/capacity.

No you can't in a legal sense. You're getting confused with gas, even
then you need BC for changing a boiler.

You cannot legally add a circuit in your own home, nor can you legally
change your consumer unit for a safer one.

I think you are getting a bit confused. Firstly the OP is talking about
extending an existing circuit, not installing a new one. Since its not
in a special location (room containing bath / shower / sauna / pool),
that is not a notifiable job.

Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU, that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He would then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

All DIY electrical work in your home is legal. Some of it is notifiable.
All of it needs to be done to an adequate standard.

Perhaps I should have mentioned notifiable as opposed to not being legal.

I genuinely thought extending an existing ring circuit was notifiable?
Whereas making a spur isn't.

On 24/09/2018 12:58, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/09/2018 03:54, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/09/2018 18:32, Fredxx wrote:
On 20/09/2018 14:56, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 20/09/2018 14:20, T i m wrote:
Just a quick question.

What is the (legal?) position re me / one adding an extra double
socket (next to an existing) in a living room for / with a non d-i-y
mate?

You can do whatever you like in/to your own home, or indeed others
homes
providing you're not acting as/in a commercial entity/capacity.

No you can't in a legal sense. You're getting confused with gas, even
then you need BC for changing a boiler.

You cannot legally add a circuit in your own home, nor can you
legally change your consumer unit for a safer one.

I think you are getting a bit confused. Firstly the OP is talking
about extending an existing circuit, not installing a new one. Since
its not in a special location (room containing bath / shower / sauna /
pool), that is not a notifiable job.

Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU,
that would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He
would then have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior
to doing the work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting
a third party who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

All DIY electrical work in your home is legal. Some of it is
notifiable. All of it needs to be done to an adequate standard.

Perhaps I should have mentioned notifiable as opposed to not being legal.

I genuinely thought extending an existing ring circuit was notifiable?
Whereas making a spur isn't.

It seems I am wrong:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ed_version.pdf

Excluded items: "additional power points or lighting points or any other
alterations to existing electrical circuits (except around baths and
showers)".

On 24/09/2018 12:58, Fredxx wrote:
On 24/09/2018 03:54, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/09/2018 18:32, Fredxx wrote:
On 20/09/2018 14:56, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 20/09/2018 14:20, T i m wrote:
Just a quick question.

What is the (legal?) position re me / one adding an extra
double socket (next to an existing) in a living room for /
with a non d-i-y mate?

You can do whatever you like in/to your own home, or indeed
others homes providing you're not acting as/in a commercial
entity/capacity.

No you can't in a legal sense. You're getting confused with gas,
even then you need BC for changing a boiler.

You cannot legally add a circuit in your own home, nor can you
legally change your consumer unit for a safer one.

I think you are getting a bit confused. Firstly the OP is talking
about extending an existing circuit, not installing a new one.
Since its not in a special location (room containing bath / shower
/ sauna / pool), that is not a notifiable job.

Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU,
that would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He
would then have a choice of either submitting a building notice
prior to doing the work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or
requesting a third party who is authorised to do so, to sign off
the work.

All DIY electrical work in your home is legal. Some of it is
notifiable. All of it needs to be done to an adequate standard.

Perhaps I should have mentioned notifiable as opposed to not being
legal.

Yup, there is a fairly significant difference!

I genuinely thought extending an existing ring circuit was
notifiable? Whereas making a spur isn't.

A spur would be an extension anyway...

Basically, you can extend a circuit in any way you like and its non
notifiable.

Note that latest part P also removed some jobs from the list of
notifiable ones. So kitchens are no longer special locations, and
neither is work on electrical stuff outside.

Have a look at:

https://assets.publishing.service.go..._AD_P_2013.pdf

In the intro it says:

"Changes in the legal requirements
€¢ The range of electrical installation work that is notifiable (where
there is a requirement to certify compliance with the Building
Regulations) has been reduced.

€¢ An installer who is not a registered competent person may use a
registered third party to certify notifiable electrical installation
work as an alternative to using a building control body"

The list of notifiable jobs in in 2.5:

"12.€”(6A) A person intending to carry out building work in relation to
which Part P of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement is required to give a
building notice or deposit full plans where the work consists of€”
(a) the installation of a new circuit;
(b) the replacement of a consumer unit; or
(c) any addition or alteration to existing circuits in a special location."



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/09/2018 23:04, wrote:
On Sunday, 23 September 2018 20:52:13 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 23/09/2018 14:34, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 September 2018 11:38:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 10:09:14 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 September 2018 19:15:49 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 20/09/2018 21:27, tabbypurr wrote:


Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant
safety IRL. It would not upset me to see diyers omitting them. I
expect many do.



The lack of grommets or sleeving would see you loose your NICEIC
entitlement.

As with most things it's a mix of good rules and not so much ones.

Given how cheap a box of grommets and a hank of sleeving is, why would
you choose to omit them?

why are you claiming I choose to omit them?


Why bring the subject up, then? If you are saying you use them - but
think it perfectly OK for others not to? Especially since it doesn't
conform to current regs.

you're funny

And you are talking ********.

any claim in particlar that's '********'?


Saying that earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted.

--
Adam

On 24/09/2018 12:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:43, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:35, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:23, wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 10:42:29 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* John Rumm wrote:
Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU,
that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He
would then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to
doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third
party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

I wonder how many DIYers competent to change their own CU would be
bothered doing any of that?

I'm not finding the data, but somewhere ISTR seeing a figure of 0
diyers having had their local council dept inspect their work.


I've just taken a quick look at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...s-to-your-home


Surprised at how much does:

€¢ installation of a new or replacement heating system or boiler,
regardless of fuel type
€¢ installation of a new or replacement oil tank
€¢ installation of a bathroom if new plumbing is installed or existing
plumbing is altered
€¢ installation of a fixed air conditioning system
€¢ addition of a radiator to an existing heating system (may not
need notifying in some circumstances)
€¢ installation of a new or replacement fuse box (or consumer unit)
or any new electrical circuit connected to the fuse box, and
alterations to electrical installations around a bath or shower
€¢ replacement of window and door units
€¢ replacement of roof coverings on pitched and flat roofs


Flip - and if you do any of that in Sheffield, the charge for
inspection *application* is over £200 - then over £1000 for the
inspection/notice.

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/content...s-charges.html


Last time I did a building notice, there were fees for submission, and
then fees for visits etc which were based on the commercial value of the
job being done. They were somewhat less than for a full plans submission
but still reasonably significant (several hundred at the time, on a job
with a commercial value of perhaps 8K)



I'd read the wrong bit! An extra rad or replacement window for example
would cost about £200 in LA fees. Plus the same again for retrospective
approval. Even so . . .


--
Cheers, Rob

On Monday, 24 September 2018 18:53:44 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 23/09/2018 23:04, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 September 2018 20:52:13 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 23/09/2018 14:34, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 September 2018 11:38:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 10:09:14 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 September 2018 19:15:49 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 20/09/2018 21:27, tabbypurr wrote:

Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant
safety IRL. It would not upset me to see diyers omitting them. I
expect many do.



The lack of grommets or sleeving would see you loose your NICEIC
entitlement.

As with most things it's a mix of good rules and not so much ones.

Given how cheap a box of grommets and a hank of sleeving is, why would
you choose to omit them?

why are you claiming I choose to omit them?


Why bring the subject up, then? If you are saying you use them - but
think it perfectly OK for others not to? Especially since it doesn't
conform to current regs.

you're funny

And you are talking ********.

any claim in particlar that's '********'?


Saying that earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted.

It's a simple fact that they can. DIYers do so every day.
Though fwiw I didn't say 'earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted'. Nor did I say anywhere to do so.


NT

On 24/09/2018 21:23, wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 18:53:44 UTC+1, ARW wrote:

And you are talking ********.

any claim in particlar that's '********'?


Saying that earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted.

It's a simple fact that they can. DIYers do so every day.
Though fwiw I didn't say 'earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted'. Nor did I say anywhere to do so.


You are making yourself look like a ****.





--
Adam

Fredxx wrote:

putting pedantic hat on, this altering and extending a circuit so it
needs approval etc.

No, because it isn't adding a new circuit ...

On 24/09/2018 19:17, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 12:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:43, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:35, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:23, wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 10:42:29 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* John Rumm wrote:
Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the
CU, that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He
would then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to
doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third
party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

I wonder how many DIYers competent to change their own CU would be
bothered doing any of that?

I'm not finding the data, but somewhere ISTR seeing a figure of 0
diyers having had their local council dept inspect their work.


I've just taken a quick look at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...s-to-your-home


Surprised at how much does:

€¢ installation of a new or replacement heating system or boiler,
regardless of fuel type
€¢ installation of a new or replacement oil tank
€¢ installation of a bathroom if new plumbing is installed or existing
plumbing is altered
€¢ installation of a fixed air conditioning system
€¢ addition of a radiator to an existing heating system (may not
need notifying in some circumstances)
€¢ installation of a new or replacement fuse box (or consumer unit)
or any new electrical circuit connected to the fuse box, and
alterations to electrical installations around a bath or shower
€¢ replacement of window and door units
€¢ replacement of roof coverings on pitched and flat roofs


Flip - and if you do any of that in Sheffield, the charge for
inspection *application* is over £200 - then over £1000 for the
inspection/notice.

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/content...s-charges.html



Last time I did a building notice, there were fees for submission, and
then fees for visits etc which were based on the commercial value of
the job being done. They were somewhat less than for a full plans
submission but still reasonably significant (several hundred at the
time, on a job with a commercial value of perhaps 8K)



I'd read the wrong bit! An extra rad or replacement window for example
would cost about £200 in LA fees. Plus the same again for retrospective
approval. Even so . . .

Although retrospective "regularisation" could presumably be applied to a
whole bunch of jobs at once.

Having said that, if its not significant or structural, I can't see any
future buyer being interested.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

T i m wrote:

On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 02:15:43 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Friday, 21 September 2018 23:46:35 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
I'm guessing grommets wouldn't apply to a plastic backbox would they?

No,

Gdgd.

but given how sharp some plastics can be compared to PVC sheating,
perhaps they should.

But what is the purpose of the grommets ITRW? If they are to protect
the cable as it's drawn though the punched hole in say a steel backbox
then the chances are the grommet will pull out anyway? If it's there
to prevent the sharp edge of such a hole cutting though the cable
sheath and conductor insulation once fitted, what sort of vibration
are you expecting in this house? ;-.


Just to get back on topic, I've cut through the wire insulation pulling
a socket out to get at the terminal screws in the course of adding a
socket to a ring. Didn't help that the person who left the grommet off
also stripped the cable sheath back to outside the back box, presumably
to give himself more room to connect three 2.5mm^2 cables to the socket.



Whenever I've fitted a metal box and wiring, when I leave the cables
as they enter the box they would be 'formed' so tat they would sit
with the least possible pressure between cable and box (I do fit
grommets in any case of course).


This would have made it less likely, but not impossible if you omitted
the grommet and it was a very sharp edge.





I used grommets on my meter tails into the CU to tidy up my manky drilled
holes.

Hehe.

Again, I don't generally make manky holes (have a good selection of
tapered / stepped drills and will generally de burr them in plastic or
steel).

Ok, it does take me longer to do stuff but I can't generally do it any
other way ...

Cheers, T i m


--

Roger Hayter

On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 11:23:23 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 10:42:29 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the CU, that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He would then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

I wonder how many DIYers competent to change their own CU would be
bothered doing any of that?

I'm not finding the data, but somewhere ISTR seeing a figure of 0 diyers having had their local council dept inspect their work.


NT

I could embark on a lengthy and foul-mouthed rant about the time, cost and effort getting the council to provide a 'letter of comfort' for a twenty-two year old garage that's built to a considerably better standard than the nearby new houses springing up in their thousands. But I won't.

On 24/09/2018 21:23, wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 18:53:44 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 23/09/2018 23:04, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 September 2018 20:52:13 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 23/09/2018 14:34, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 23 September 2018 11:38:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 September 2018 10:09:14 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 21 September 2018 19:15:49 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 20/09/2018 21:27, tabbypurr wrote:

Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant
safety IRL. It would not upset me to see diyers omitting them. I
expect many do.



The lack of grommets or sleeving would see you loose your NICEIC
entitlement.

As with most things it's a mix of good rules and not so much ones.

Given how cheap a box of grommets and a hank of sleeving is, why would
you choose to omit them?

why are you claiming I choose to omit them?


Why bring the subject up, then? If you are saying you use them - but
think it perfectly OK for others not to? Especially since it doesn't
conform to current regs.

you're funny

And you are talking ********.

any claim in particlar that's '********'?


Saying that earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted.

It's a simple fact that they can. DIYers do so every day.
Though fwiw I didn't say 'earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted'. Nor did I say anywhere to do so.

bloody professionals are just as bad..
had to replace a wireless stat last week and when I did the receiver I
found the electrician (not the plumber) had used the earth as the
switched live, no sleeving either.

Now I wonder what other stuff they have done wrong.
There is a timer for the HW about 4m away so I bet they have done the
same there.

On Monday, 24 September 2018 21:39:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2018 21:23, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 18:53:44 UTC+1, ARW wrote:

And you are talking ********.

any claim in particlar that's '********'?


Saying that earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted.

It's a simple fact that they can. DIYers do so every day.
Though fwiw I didn't say 'earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted'. Nor did I say anywhere to do so.


You are making yourself look like a ****.

I can only make sense of that by concluding that you are failing to distinguish what I said from what you imagined.


NT

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 24/09/2018 10:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
T i m wrote:
My preferred method is to use a normal steel box. Fit wood battens either
side of the hole to the back of the plasterboard and fix the box to those.
That will never come away.

Good idea but that's assuming a plasterboard over stud or decent sized
battens. I'm not sure if this wall is all battens or dot-n-dab / mix
so the gap behind the plasterboard may not be sufficient (for the mini
battens). If it isn't then I'm probably going to have to chop out some
of the blockwork as well (but can then fix the box back to the wall).

Yes - if there is something solid behind the hole, fix to that.

Or use a dry lining box, rather than a normal metal one.

I explained why I don't like them. Apart from having seen several which
have pulled out of the plasterboard.

If you are using flat plate metal sockets, etc, the flange looks untidy to
me.

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 21:39:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2018 21:23, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 18:53:44 UTC+1, ARW wrote:

And you are talking ********.

any claim in particlar that's '********'?


Saying that earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted.

It's a simple fact that they can. DIYers do so every day. Though
fwiw I didn't say 'earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted'. Nor
did I say anywhere to do so.


You are making yourself look like a ****.

I can only make sense of that by concluding that you are failing to
distinguish what I said from what you imagined.


No matter how you wriggle, you said:-

*********************

From:
Subject: Adding an extra 13A socket ...
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:25
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant safety IRL. It
would not upset me to see diyers omitting them. I expect many do.

***********************

Which if you're not upset by it means you approve of it even in a passive
way. And by extension, would mean it's what you do.

But if you're concerned about others taking what you say wrongly - as you
obviously are - make it plain what you mean.

--
*I didn't like my beard at first. Then it grew on me.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 24/09/2018 23:12, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/09/2018 19:17, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 12:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:43, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:35, RJH wrote:
On 24/09/2018 11:23, wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 10:42:29 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* John Rumm wrote:
Even if he were installing a whole new circuit or swapping the
CU, that
would still be legal, however it would also be notifiable. He
would then
have a choice of either submitting a building notice prior to
doing the
work, and allowing LABC to sign off on it, or requesting a third
party
who is authorised to do so, to sign off the work.

I wonder how many DIYers competent to change their own CU would be
bothered doing any of that?

I'm not finding the data, but somewhere ISTR seeing a figure of 0
diyers having had their local council dept inspect their work.


I've just taken a quick look at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...s-to-your-home


Surprised at how much does:

€¢ installation of a new or replacement heating system or boiler,
regardless of fuel type
€¢ installation of a new or replacement oil tank
€¢ installation of a bathroom if new plumbing is installed or existing
plumbing is altered
€¢ installation of a fixed air conditioning system
€¢ addition of a radiator to an existing heating system (may not
need notifying in some circumstances)
€¢ installation of a new or replacement fuse box (or consumer unit)
or any new electrical circuit connected to the fuse box, and
alterations to electrical installations around a bath or shower
€¢ replacement of window and door units
€¢ replacement of roof coverings on pitched and flat roofs


Flip - and if you do any of that in Sheffield, the charge for
inspection *application* is over £200 - then over £1000 for the
inspection/notice.

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/content...s-charges.html




Last time I did a building notice, there were fees for submission,
and then fees for visits etc which were based on the commercial value
of the job being done. They were somewhat less than for a full plans
submission but still reasonably significant (several hundred at the
time, on a job with a commercial value of perhaps 8K)



I'd read the wrong bit! An extra rad or replacement window for example
would cost about £200 in LA fees. Plus the same again for
retrospective approval. Even so . . .

Although retrospective "regularisation" could presumably be applied to a
whole bunch of jobs at once.


Yes, hopefully - it's done by price bands.

Having said that, if its not significant or structural, I can't see any
future buyer being interested.


I'd agree. Except if surveyors (and then solicitors) pick up on that
sort of thing when the hapless DIYer comes to sell it can be used as a
negotiating ploy. Desperate as that might be.



--
Cheers, Rob

RJH wrote:

€¢ installation of a new or replacement heating system or boiler,
regardless of fuel type
€¢ installation of a new or replacement oil tank
€¢ installation of a bathroom if new plumbing is installed or existing
plumbing is altered
€¢ installation of a fixed air conditioning system
€¢ addition of a radiator to an existing heating system (may not
need notifying in some circumstances)
€¢ installation of a new or replacement fuse box (or consumer unit)
or any new electrical circuit connected to the fuse box, and
alterations to electrical installations around a bath or shower
€¢ replacement of window and door units
€¢ replacement of roof coverings on pitched and flat roofs

Scored 5/8 here (though some might not have required notification at the
time they were done)

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 12:02:06 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 21:39:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2018 21:23, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 18:53:44 UTC+1, ARW wrote:

And you are talking ********.

any claim in particlar that's '********'?


Saying that earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted.

It's a simple fact that they can. DIYers do so every day. Though
fwiw I didn't say 'earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted'. Nor
did I say anywhere to do so.


You are making yourself look like a ****.

I can only make sense of that by concluding that you are failing to
distinguish what I said from what you imagined.


No matter how you wriggle, you said:-

*********************

From: tabbypurr
Subject: Adding an extra 13A socket ...
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:25
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant safety IRL. It
would not upset me to see diyers omitting them. I expect many do.

***********************

Which if you're not upset by it means you approve of it even in a passive
way.

it means I'm not concerned about it

And by extension, would mean it's what you do.

BZZT. Basic reasoning failure there.


But if you're concerned about others taking what you say wrongly - as you
obviously are - make it plain what you mean.

I meant what I said, not some other thing you want to make it out to be. I can see that's a challenging idea for a couple of people here.


NT

On 25/09/2018 08:40, dennis@home wrote:


bloody professionals are just as bad..
had to replace a wireless stat last week and when I did the receiver I
found the electrician (not the plumber) had used the earth as the
switched live, no sleeving either.

Now I wonder what other stuff they have done wrong.
There is a timer for the HW about 4m away so I bet they have done the
same there.


Just had exactly the same experience recently even with a fixed (non
wireless) stat as part of a major heating system upgrade. It uses 3
core Brown/Blue/Green&yellow. L&N as expected with the "earth" wire
being used as the switched live.

I found somewhere on the net (but cant find it again just now) that
there are no colour conventions for heating wiring so this is perfectly
acceptable.



--
Chris B (News)

On 25/09/2018 11:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I explained why I don't like them. Apart from having seen several which
have pulled out of the plasterboard.

If you are using flat plate metal sockets, etc, the flange looks untidy to
me.


Even if fitted before the wall is skimmed (to avoid the visible flange)
some flat plate switches and sockets will still not fit dry liners.

--
Adam

On 25/09/2018 18:31, Chris B wrote:
On 25/09/2018 08:40, dennis@home wrote:


bloody professionals are just as bad..
had to replace a wireless stat last week and when I did the receiver I
found the electrician (not the plumber) had used the earth as the
switched live, no sleeving either.

Now I wonder what other stuff they have done wrong.
There is a timer for the HW about 4m away so I bet they have done the
same there.


Just had exactly the same experience recently even with a fixed (non
wireless) stat as part of a major heating system upgrade.Â* It uses 3
core Brown/Blue/Green&yellow.Â* L&N as expected with the "earth" wire
being used as the switched live.

I found somewhere on the net (but cant find it again just now) that
there are no colour conventions for heating wiring so this is perfectly
acceptable.




I doubt if that is true for mains voltage like motorized valves.

I will get some five core and rewire some of it. I need an extra core
anyway as the new stat is a hive with the water control built in.

On 25/09/2018 08:40, dennis@home wrote:

bloody professionals are just as bad..
had to replace a wireless stat last week and when I did the receiver I
found the electrician (not the plumber) had used the earth as the
switched live, no sleeving either.

Now I wonder what other stuff they have done wrong.
There is a timer for the HW about 4m away so I bet they have done the
same there.


That would not be allowed on my shift.


--
Adam

ARW wrote:

dennis@home wrote:

I found the electrician (not the plumber) had used the earth as the
switched live, no sleeving either.

That would not be allowed on my shift.

How come things like this never get addressed in newer IET regs, which
IIRC only states that green yellow singles can't be overmarked?

On 25/09/2018 19:04, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

dennis@home wrote:

I found the electrician (not the plumber) had used the earth as the
switched live, no sleeving either.

That would not be allowed on my shift.

How come things like this never get addressed in newer IET regs, which
IIRC only states that green yellow singles can't be overmarked?
Trust you to point out that green yellow singles cannot be over sleeved.

There is some crap (IMHO) that the green yellow of a flex may be
oversleeved in certain circumstances and used as a line conductor.

I personally would not do it.




--
Adam

On 25/09/2018 15:02, wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 12:02:06 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 21:39:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2018 21:23, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 18:53:44 UTC+1, ARW wrote:

And you are talking ********.

any claim in particlar that's '********'?


Saying that earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted.

It's a simple fact that they can. DIYers do so every day. Though
fwiw I didn't say 'earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted'. Nor
did I say anywhere to do so.


You are making yourself look like a ****.

I can only make sense of that by concluding that you are failing to
distinguish what I said from what you imagined.


No matter how you wriggle, you said:-

*********************

From: tabbypurr
Subject: Adding an extra 13A socket ...
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:25
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant safety IRL. It
would not upset me to see diyers omitting them. I expect many do.

***********************

Which if you're not upset by it means you approve of it even in a passive
way.

it means I'm not concerned about it

And by extension, would mean it's what you do.

BZZT. Basic reasoning failure there.


But if you're concerned about others taking what you say wrongly - as you
obviously are - make it plain what you mean.

I meant what I said, not some other thing you want to make it out to be. I can see that's a challenging idea for a couple of people here.


Shall we cut to exactly what you said and stop ****ing about?

You said "Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant
safety IRL"

Well the grommet is must for safety, the earth sleeving is only there
for identification of the cpc (and not as a barrier).

Now then comes the tail to box. It is easier to tell DIYers just to fit
one than write out the regs where it is, or is not required.




--
Adam

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 20:07:18 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 25/09/2018 15:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 12:02:06 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 21:39:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2018 21:23, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 24 September 2018 18:53:44 UTC+1, ARW wrote:

And you are talking ********.

any claim in particlar that's '********'?


Saying that earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted.

It's a simple fact that they can. DIYers do so every day. Though
fwiw I didn't say 'earth sleeving and grommets can be omitted'. Nor
did I say anywhere to do so.


You are making yourself look like a ****.

I can only make sense of that by concluding that you are failing to
distinguish what I said from what you imagined.


No matter how you wriggle, you said:-

*********************

From: tabbypurr
Subject: Adding an extra 13A socket ...
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:25
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant safety IRL. It
would not upset me to see diyers omitting them. I expect many do.

***********************

Which if you're not upset by it means you approve of it even in a passive
way.

it means I'm not concerned about it

And by extension, would mean it's what you do.

BZZT. Basic reasoning failure there.


But if you're concerned about others taking what you say wrongly - as you
obviously are - make it plain what you mean.

I meant what I said, not some other thing you want to make it out to be. I can see that's a challenging idea for a couple of people here.


Shall we cut to exactly what you said and stop ****ing about?

You said "Earth sleeving, grommet & tail to box offer no significant
safety IRL"

correct

Well the grommet is must for safety, the earth sleeving is only there
for identification of the cpc (and not as a barrier).

Now then comes the tail to box. It is easier to tell DIYers just to fit
one than write out the regs where it is, or is not required.

So the only difference there is the safety or not of the grommet. So if what I said about that is bs, you can tell us why it is unsafe to fit a backbox without a grommet.

PS the cpc is already identified by it being bare.


NT