On 13/05/2018 13:32, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 11:19, Roger Hayter wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:

That sounds very suspicious. All theÂ* features I've seen run at low
voltage,
unless its a huge thing as often used in shopping centres.
Â* Sounds like a nightmare when you consider what rats can do to
cables on the
ground with no protection.
Â* Brian

Mains voltage submersible pumps are commonplace.

Yes, I had one in my smaller fishtank - along withÂ* mains voltage
submersible heaters in both tanks.

SteveW

They should be very waterproof as the mains is just a coil and its
potted in resin.

The only difference between indoor and outdoor is the type of flex used
as PVC flex is very ridged in the cold unlike the "rubber" stuff they
use on outdoor stuff.

On 13/05/2018 20:37, dennis@home wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:32, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 11:19, Roger Hayter wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:

That sounds very suspicious. All theÂ* features I've seen run at low
voltage,
unless its a huge thing as often used in shopping centres.
Â* Sounds like a nightmare when you consider what rats can do to
cables on the
ground with no protection.
Â* Brian

Mains voltage submersible pumps are commonplace.

Yes, I had one in my smaller fishtank - along withÂ* mains voltage
submersible heaters in both tanks.

SteveW

They should be very waterproof as the mains is just a coil and its
potted in resin.

Yes, I've said that in another reply.

The only difference between indoor and outdoor is the type of flex used
as PVC flex is very ridged in the cold unlike the "rubber" stuff they
use on outdoor stuff.

Yes. As is very obvious if I take an extension lead out of the garage
mid-winter.

SteveW

On 13/05/2018 14:04, Max Demian wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally
broken earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a
socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

They tend to break off, then you have to plug the device into the same
socket and nothing else there. I don't know whether they are still made,
but you could get 13A sockets which didn't rely on the earth pin to open
the shutter - you just had to insert pins into both line and neutral
simultaneously. That's a better idea as devices that don't require an
earth just need two pins. Our 13A plugs and sockets are rather a rubbish
design.

MK sockets work(ed?) like that, but it has the disadvantage that people
can plug an unfused, 2-pin shaver lead into a 13A socket.

SteveW

On 13/05/2018 14:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Steve Walker laid this down on his screen :
You haven't read the webpage linked to have you?

No, not fully - I only scanned it, between doing other tasks like
peeling spuds and driving the tractor round to cut the grass.
It clearly says "To ensure
that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this
means that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth
is fully inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all
brass (or all plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

Yes of course, my bad!

Fair enough.

SteveW

On 13/05/2018 19:59, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:07:39 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally broken
earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

You haven't read the webpage linked to have you? It clearly says "To
ensure that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means
that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully
inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all
plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

SteveW

that explanation does not make sense.

Of course it does.

To ensure that the earth pin makes contact well before the live and
neutral (and breaks contact last on unplugging), the earth contact
within the socket is as far forward as possible, while the live and
neutral are a little further back. For the same reasons, the earth pin
is longer than the live and neutral pins. If an earth pin is partly
sleeved, the metal part can have slid right through the contact and the
contacts be only resting on the plastic sleeve - hence no earth
connection. To prevent this, sleeved earth pins are specifically banned.

Non-earthed appliances don't need the earth pin at all, so it is
acceptable for them to have a fully plastic earth pin, purely to open
the shutters on the socket.

SteveW

On 13/05/2018 14:07, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally
broken earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a
socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

You haven't read the webpage linked to have you? It clearly says "To
ensure that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means
that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully
inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all
plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

I used to have some two way 13A adapters that didn't work with the
newfangled sleeved line and neutral pin plugs as the (cast brass)
contacts attempted to contact the insulated parts of the pins.

--
Max Demian

On 13/05/2018 14:34, Robin wrote:
On 13/05/2018 14:13, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:03:10 UTC+1, RobinÂ* wrote:
Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/


If you're reporting a breach of a particular safety regulation for
enforcement action that's not "help about a consumer issue". The OP
already knows more about the safety regulations than any CAB advisor :-)



National Trading Standards have consistently told people:

"If you believe that any online or face-to-face seller is selling
potentially dangerous goods, or something youve bought has made you
suspicious, report it to Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline on 03454 04
05 06."

http://www.nationaltradingstandards....safety-checks/

AIUI that's to filter reports and avoid TS staff spending time on
calls/correspondence.Â* But yes, if the OP knows eg *which* Trading
Standards team will deal with the firm, and that they don't already have
enforcement action in progress against them...

IOW they don't care if Citizens Advice waste their time as they are a
charity.

--
Max Demian

On 13/05/2018 21:19, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 14:04, Max Demian wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed,
the partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On
something which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an
internally broken earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the
plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

They tend to break off, then you have to plug the device into the same
socket and nothing else there. I don't know whether they are still
made, but you could get 13A sockets which didn't rely on the earth pin
to open the shutter - you just had to insert pins into both line and
neutral simultaneously. That's a better idea as devices that don't
require an earth just need two pins. Our 13A plugs and sockets are
rather a rubbish design.

MK sockets work(ed?) like that, but it has the disadvantage that people
can plug an unfused, 2-pin shaver lead into a 13A socket.


It just goes to show that it's bloody hard to make something foolproof.


--
Adam

On 13/05/2018 14:04, Max Demian wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally
broken earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a
socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

They tend to break off, then you have to plug the device into the same
socket and nothing else there. I don't know whether they are still made,
but you could get 13A sockets which didn't rely on the earth pin to open
the shutter - you just had to insert pins into both line and neutral
simultaneously. That's a better idea as devices that don't require an
earth just need two pins. Our 13A plugs and sockets are rather a rubbish
design.

MK sockets work(ed?) like that, but it has the disadvantage that people
can plug an unfused, 2-pin shaver lead into a 13A socket.

SteveW

I have a house full of those MK sockets, and you can't plug a UK
shaver plug into one. You can however easily plug a Europlug into
them. I believe MK tweaked the design in later production sockets so
that a Europlug does not open the shutter.
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:07:39 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally
broken
earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

You haven't read the webpage linked to have you? It clearly says "To
ensure that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means
that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully
inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all
plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

that explanation does not make sense.

Corse it does. When the contacts for the earth pin are as close
to the faceplate as possible so the earth pin makes contact before
the other pins do, the last thing you want is any sleeve on the
earth pin on the inner end of the earth pin because it will then
be possible for the contacts for the earth pin to no longer be in
contact with the earth pin with the plug fully inserted.

The whole point of a sleeve on the active and neutral pins
is so you can't accidentally touch the metal if you finger
ends up on the pins as you plug or unplug the plug while
the tip of the pin is in contact with the contacts in the socket.

There is no point in avoiding contact between your finger
and the metal of the earth pin if the other pins have sleeves.

On 13/05/2018 19:59, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:07:39 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally broken
earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

You haven't read the webpage linked to have you? It clearly says "To
ensure that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means
that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully
inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all
plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

SteveW

that explanation does not make sense.

Of course it does.

To ensure that the earth pin makes contact well before the live and
neutral (and breaks contact last on unplugging), the earth contact
within the socket is as far forward as possible, while the live and
neutral are a little further back. For the same reasons, the earth pin
is longer than the live and neutral pins. If an earth pin is partly
sleeved, the metal part can have slid right through the contact and the
contacts be only resting on the plastic sleeve - hence no earth
connection. To prevent this, sleeved earth pins are specifically banned.

Non-earthed appliances don't need the earth pin at all, so it is
acceptable for them to have a fully plastic earth pin, purely to open
the shutters on the socket.

SteveW

It dosn't explain why a s
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On 13/05/2018 22:44, Graham. wrote:
On 13/05/2018 14:04, Max Demian wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally
broken earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a
socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

They tend to break off, then you have to plug the device into the same
socket and nothing else there. I don't know whether they are still made,
but you could get 13A sockets which didn't rely on the earth pin to open
the shutter - you just had to insert pins into both line and neutral
simultaneously. That's a better idea as devices that don't require an
earth just need two pins. Our 13A plugs and sockets are rather a rubbish
design.

MK sockets work(ed?) like that, but it has the disadvantage that people
can plug an unfused, 2-pin shaver lead into a 13A socket.

SteveW

I have a house full of those MK sockets, and you can't plug a UK
shaver plug into one. You can however easily plug a Europlug into
them. I believe MK tweaked the design in later production sockets so
that a Europlug does not open the shutter.

Many shavers seem to come with European pins - which makes sense. Why
produce a special UK version when shaver sockets usually cater for both
types. My shaver lead will definitely fit a 13A socket.

SteveW

Robin wrote:

On 13/05/2018 11:19, Roger Hayter wrote:
ARW wrote:

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f



Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.


http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

I have never understood why wholly plastic earth pins are not allowed.
They are common on wall wart type power supplies and I really don't see
that they have any disadvantage over an unconnected metal pin.


Adam's link includes: "However, earth pins must be solid brass, or, in
the case of plugs intended solely for use with non-earthed devices,
solid plastic. "

Ok that's good. I obviously did not read it properly.

--

Roger Hayter

On Sunday, 13 May 2018 21:27:45 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 19:59, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:07:39 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally broken
earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

You haven't read the webpage linked to have you? It clearly says "To
ensure that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means
that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully
inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all
plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

SteveW

that explanation does not make sense.

Of course it does.

To ensure that the earth pin makes contact well before the live and
neutral (and breaks contact last on unplugging), the earth contact
within the socket is as far forward as possible, while the live and
neutral are a little further back. For the same reasons, the earth pin
is longer than the live and neutral pins. If an earth pin is partly
sleeved, the metal part can have slid right through the contact and the
contacts be only resting on the plastic sleeve - hence no earth
connection. To prevent this, sleeved earth pins are specifically banned.

Non-earthed appliances don't need the earth pin at all, so it is
acceptable for them to have a fully plastic earth pin, purely to open
the shutters on the socket.

SteveW

quite so.
NT

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

It's indescribably vulgar.

Bill

On 13/05/2018 22:10, Max Demian wrote:
On 13/05/2018 14:34, Robin wrote:
On 13/05/2018 14:13, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:03:10 UTC+1, RobinÂ* wrote:
Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/


If you're reporting a breach of a particular safety regulation for
enforcement action that's not "help about a consumer issue". The OP
already knows more about the safety regulations than any CAB advisor :-)



National Trading Standards have consistently told people:

"If you believe that any online or face-to-face seller is selling
potentially dangerous goods, or something youve bought has made you
suspicious, report it to Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline on 03454 04
05 06."

http://www.nationaltradingstandards....safety-checks/


AIUI that's to filter reports and avoid TS staff spending time on
calls/correspondence.Â* But yes, if the OP knows eg *which* Trading
Standards team will deal with the firm, and that they don't already
have enforcement action in progress against them...

IOW they don't care if Citizens Advice waste their time as they are a
charity.

Citizens Advice gets money from government to provide a public service
and is accountable to government for what it delivers*; TS teams can
stick to their knitting rather than having staff available all the time
to deal with phone calls complaining about - say - the fact furniture
from Ikea comes flat packed; and citizens get a more efficient service
with a single point of contact.

* I'm out of date but a few years ago it had around three quarters of
its funds from the Department for Business, Innovation & Skills.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Monday, 14 May 2018 08:17:24 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
... citizens get a more efficient service
with a single point of contact.

Have you ever tried phoning a CAB?

I don't know where the 0345 helpline is answered, but if you try phoning a local CAB it's probably got one line answered by a sweet old dear who drops her stitches every time the phone rings.

I know they have a difficult and worthwhile job helping the terminally clueless, but I don't see how a CAB helpline somewhere can be a single point of contact for a local council department.

Owain

Bill Wright wrote:

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

It's indescribably vulgar.

Bill

Generally speaking I, too, am a snob when it comes to ornyments; but I
think that thing has a certain je ne sais quoi about it. And I like
watery things.


--

Roger Hayter

On Sunday, 13 May 2018 02:20:19 UTC+1, Graham. wrote:
I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.


The importer/brand owner has a very basic website, but appears to be easily contactable in the UK.

Or you could contact their local trading standards office direct. :-)

Owain

On 14/05/2018 10:27, wrote:
On Monday, 14 May 2018 08:17:24 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
... citizens get a more efficient service
with a single point of contact.

Have you ever tried phoning a CAB?

I don't know where the 0345 helpline is answered, but if you try phoning a local CAB it's probably got one line answered by a sweet old dear who drops her stitches every time the phone rings.

I know they have a difficult and worthwhile job helping the terminally clueless, but I don't see how a CAB helpline somewhere can be a single point of contact for a local council department.


Consumers have been directed away from individual LAs' TS teams to a
national call centre since Consumer Direct was set up in 2004. CA took
over that work when Consumer Direct wound up. Its a national service
operated by CA under (in effect) a multi-million pound contract from
BEIS, bringing economies of scale plus the CA's experience in dealing
with consumers of all kinds and brand recognition. It fits in with the
way National Trading Standards (NTS) was set up to deal with the problem
that local TS teams didn't see the bigger picture or share data. The CA
work with NTS as well as local TS so they can feed in to their national
intelligence. AFAIK none of that involves sweet old dears knitting.

Local TS teams could take over the provision of a full-time service
fielding questions and complaints (many of which won't be within their
remit[1]). Or they could pass the work to the LA's generalist call
centre (where it'd be dealt with along withy complaints about bins,
litter, noise, etc etc). But then either the national database would
disappear or some new body need to be set up to run it.


[1] Even if the problem is square within the remit of TS there's the
issue of geography - eg a consumer P who lives in Accrington buys a
dangerous pump from a trader in Barnsley which was imported by a company
in Colchester. Which is the "local council department" that P should
contact?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/05/2018 14:03, Robin wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:15, Martin wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:20:17 +0100, Graham.
wrote:


I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.


No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

Report it to trading standards


Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/


Scotland and NI have their own equivalents.


What about these people?

http://www.doesitcomply.co.uk/



--
Adam

On 13/05/2018 14:13, wrote:

The OP already knows more about the safety regulations than any CAB
advisor :-)

And I am going to sent the photos to work to see if the apprentices
(that have done a PAT testing course) know more than the OP.

I don't know how many other people would have noticed what the OP
spotted. I looked at Graham's photos before reading his post.


And for anyone wishing to find out if a fuse is a counterfeit there is this

https://www.pat-testing-training.net...fake-fuses.php


--
Adam

On 14/05/2018 18:41, ARW wrote:
snip


What about these people?

http://www.doesitcomply.co.uk/


Interesting, thanks, but short answer is "dunno 'guv". Would you use
them if you came across counterfeit stuff?

Longer answer is that on the one hand I can see it's a way to target
people in the trade ("The mission is to educate and inform contractors,
installers, and specifiers...") rather than consumers.

On the other hand I'm cynical that it's (also) a way for Voltimum to
build its business worldwide by blurring the line between commercial and
public service, in the process gathering info. to send promotional
emails, carry out market research etc. The more so as they are
economical about just how they "notify the relevant state regulator".
I'd be more impressed if they could report eg National Trading Standards
as partners rather than just pray in aid the EIC Charter (which is a
venture with Trading Standards UK but AFAICS not with Voltimum).

On the third hand, I see they do include[1] the advice "Alternatively,
you can report it to Trading Standards via the Citizens Advice website
www.adviceguide.org.uk or call the Citizens Advice consumer helpline on
08454 04 05 06"

[1] at
http://www.doesitcomply.co.uk/articl...ow-the-whistle

Mind you that page'd be better if they gave the up to date number "03454
04 05 06) and linked direct the the page for TS reports
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-more-help/report-to-trading-standards/
But perhaps they gave the website to an apprentice.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/05/2018 19:59, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:07:39 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally broken
earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

You haven't read the webpage linked to have you? It clearly says "To
ensure that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means
that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully
inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all
plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

SteveW

that explanation does not make sense.

Seems ok to me.

A metal earth pin should work reliably as an earth in all circumstances.
With a sleeve it won't some of the time. A plastic one does not ever
need to work as an earth connection.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Tuesday, 15 May 2018 00:11:06 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/05/2018 19:59, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:07:39 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally broken
earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

You haven't read the webpage linked to have you? It clearly says "To
ensure that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means
that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully
inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all
plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

SteveW

that explanation does not make sense.

Seems ok to me.

A metal earth pin should work reliably as an earth in all circumstances.
With a sleeve it won't some of the time. A plastic one does not ever
need to work as an earth connection.

With a plastic sleeve it won't any of the time, as the E plug pin connection is deliberately made near the surface of the socket.


NT

On 15/05/2018 11:13, wrote:
On Tuesday, 15 May 2018 00:11:06 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/05/2018 19:59, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:07:39 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally broken
earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

You haven't read the webpage linked to have you? It clearly says "To
ensure that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means
that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully
inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all
plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

SteveW

that explanation does not make sense.

Seems ok to me.

A metal earth pin should work reliably as an earth in all circumstances.
With a sleeve it won't some of the time. A plastic one does not ever
need to work as an earth connection.

With a plastic sleeve it won't any of the time,

That's not necessarily always the case. There are plenty of socket
designs where the earth connection is a fairly deep "socket" which while
reaching to (or close to) the faceplate, also has contactable metalwork
deeper in the socket.

as the E plug pin connection is deliberately made near the surface of the socket.

Yes, but not exclusively at the surface.

So while you can't rely on a partially sleeved pin working at all,
neither can you reply on it not.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Sorry for posting in the wrong place, but I had not seen the OP. I am a
bit late to this party (been having internet access issues for a couple
of weeks), so this is the first time I have seen Graham's original post
quoted in full...

On 14/05/2018 18:41, ARW wrote:
On 13/05/2018 14:03, Robin wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:15, Martin wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:20:17 +0100, Graham.
wrote:


I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

Not actually that uncommon for submersible pumps in general.

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

Indeed.

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

*if* the flex is genuine (and that is a big if), then it probably is
adequately fault protected by a 13A fuse (assuming that is also to
spec). Overload protection won't be required here.

So yes, a 3A fuse would be more appropriate, but should be safe with a
13A assuming everything is built to the expected specification.

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.

Could equally be ali ;-)

No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

Something ending in a 7 or 8 - i.e. intended for continuous immersion.
(7 if its designed for a depth of no more than 1m)


So looking at that lot, the plug is suspect, as is the fuse. The other
bits are "ok" if they match the claims made by their marking. (which I
would not be surprised if that turned out to not be the case)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/