I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.


No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On Sunday, 13 May 2018 02:20:19 UTC+1, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

that's normal

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

yes, and it'll fail any basic safety test

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

not ASTM approved, another safety fail

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.

given the above 2 features I'd not be surprised if the flex is not what it claims, who knows.

No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

I don't know if trading standards will care enough to do anything. The things may be noncompliant but that's all. Stuff like that is somewhat common.

On something that doesn't match what it should, any claimed IP rating is worth little. The only way to find out will be to disassemble it.

I wouldn't get too excited, just reject it on safety & legal compliance grounds.


NT

That sounds very suspicious. All the features I've seen run at low voltage,
unless its a huge thing as often used in shopping centres.
Sounds like a nightmare when you consider what rats can do to cables on the
ground with no protection.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 02:20:19 UTC+1, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

that's normal

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

yes, and it'll fail any basic safety test

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

not ASTM approved, another safety fail

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.

given the above 2 features I'd not be surprised if the flex is not what it
claims, who knows.

No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

I don't know if trading standards will care enough to do anything. The
things may be noncompliant but that's all. Stuff like that is somewhat
common.

On something that doesn't match what it should, any claimed IP rating is
worth little. The only way to find out will be to disassemble it.

I wouldn't get too excited, just reject it on safety & legal compliance
grounds.


NT

Brian Gaff wrote:

That sounds very suspicious. All the features I've seen run at low voltage,
unless its a huge thing as often used in shopping centres.
Sounds like a nightmare when you consider what rats can do to cables on the
ground with no protection.
Brian

Mains voltage submersible pumps are commonplace. I doubt if rodents are
a significant factor for an indoor water feature with the flex in a room
rather than in the house structure. An RCD should protect against live
leakage to the water. So the arrangement could be perfectly
satisfactory, as long as RCD protected against deterioration of the
rubber underwater seal. Whether this item is perfectly satisfactory
cannot be detected from the picture, but on the face of it it could be.


--

Roger Hayter

It happens that Roger Hayter formulated :
Mains voltage submersible pumps are commonplace. I doubt if rodents are
a significant factor for an indoor water feature with the flex in a room
rather than in the house structure. An RCD should protect against live
leakage to the water. So the arrangement could be perfectly
satisfactory, as long as RCD protected against deterioration of the
rubber underwater seal.

The RCD would only trip, if the leakage to the water, had somewhere to
go beyond the water. By the looks of it, then it would not be, unless
someone in contact with an earth were to poke a finger in the water.

Personally, I would not want that unit in my home at all, I would class
it as extremely dangerous, if not the risk of shock, the risk of fire.
The Chinese care nothing for safety, nothing for meeting standards and
take every opportunity to fake standards.

On 13/05/2018 11:19, Roger Hayter wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:

That sounds very suspicious. All the features I've seen run at low voltage,
unless its a huge thing as often used in shopping centres.
Sounds like a nightmare when you consider what rats can do to cables on the
ground with no protection.
Brian

Mains voltage submersible pumps are commonplace.

Yes, I had one in my smaller fishtank - along with mains voltage
submersible heaters in both tanks.

SteveW

On 13/05/2018 13:32, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 11:19, Roger Hayter wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:

That sounds very suspicious. All theÂ* features I've seen run at low
voltage,
unless its a huge thing as often used in shopping centres.
Â* Sounds like a nightmare when you consider what rats can do to
cables on the
ground with no protection.
Â* Brian

Mains voltage submersible pumps are commonplace.

Yes, I had one in my smaller fishtank - along withÂ* mains voltage
submersible heaters in both tanks.

SteveW

They should be very waterproof as the mains is just a coil and its
potted in resin.

The only difference between indoor and outdoor is the type of flex used
as PVC flex is very ridged in the cold unlike the "rubber" stuff they
use on outdoor stuff.

On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:20:17 +0100, Graham.
wrote:


I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

snip

Isn't that exactly the same case with every fish tank heater /
thermostat, underwater fan or submersible (mains) / pond pumps etc so
not an issue in itself?

snip more relevant points though

Cheers, T i m

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f



Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.


http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

--
Adam

ARW wrote:

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f



Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.


http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

I have never understood why wholly plastic earth pins are not allowed.
They are common on wall wart type power supplies and I really don't see
that they have any disadvantage over an unconnected metal pin.

--

Roger Hayter

On 13/05/2018 11:19, Roger Hayter wrote:
ARW wrote:

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f



Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.


http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

I have never understood why wholly plastic earth pins are not allowed.
They are common on wall wart type power supplies and I really don't see
that they have any disadvantage over an unconnected metal pin.


Adam's link includes: "However, earth pins must be solid brass, or, in
the case of plugs intended solely for use with non-earthed devices,
solid plastic. "




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin formulated the question :
Adam's link includes: "However, earth pins must be solid brass, or, in the
case of plugs intended solely for use with non-earthed devices, solid
plastic. "

It makes no mention of half and half.

On 13/05/18 11:58, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Robin formulated the question :
Adam's link includes: "However, earth pins must be solid brass, or, in
the case of plugs intended solely for use with non-earthed devices,
solid plastic. "

It makes no mention of half and half.

If you hadn't snipped the original content, your comment is null & void.

On 13/05/2018 11:58, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Robin formulated the question :
Adam's link includes: "However, earth pins must be solid brass, or, in
the case of plugs intended solely for use with non-earthed devices,
solid plastic. "

It makes no mention of half and half.

Did you miss this bit in the link?

PLEASE NOTE: Plugs with partially sleeved earth pins are ALWAYS
counterfeit, and are not allowed to be sold, even for non-earthed
applications.

--
Adam

Robin wrote:

On 13/05/2018 11:19, Roger Hayter wrote:
ARW wrote:

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f



Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.


http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

I have never understood why wholly plastic earth pins are not allowed.
They are common on wall wart type power supplies and I really don't see
that they have any disadvantage over an unconnected metal pin.


Adam's link includes: "However, earth pins must be solid brass, or, in
the case of plugs intended solely for use with non-earthed devices,
solid plastic. "

Ok that's good. I obviously did not read it properly.

--

Roger Hayter

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.


Well the cert should be on the company's webs site. Here it is;-)

https://fshaike.en.china.cn/quality.html

Personally I would like to see the product pulled off the market.

--
Adam

Graham. wrote:

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

The shape of the 'pump' suggests it may be a vibrating diaphragm type
pump - no rotating parts, just a diaphragm caused to vibrate at mains
frequency.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

Many pond pumps are all plastic in external appearance ,the electric motor
and connections are sealed in the moulding. The impeller is driven by a
magnetic coupling so there is no shaft seal to wear and leak.
The magnet on the impeller is also enclosed in plastic so it doesnt
corrode and may actually be made as a combined component.
The ones in my pond have done more than ten years service now but are
manufactured by a German company to a reasonable standard and costs more
accordingly. One is a pump for a water feature the other a floating
skimming device for leaf debris etc.
The cable is often a sign of a better quality unit , the flex on more
expensive ones is a more flexible rubber type than plain PVC.

GH

On Sun, 13 May 2018 12:05:00 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

I know I have *never* come across one that has a metal case and earth.

I have also come across many many fish tank heaters where the element
is in a glass tube and only 'sealed' with a rubber grommet (that could
be pulled out to allow you to adjust the thermostat, so not even
sealed and bonded).

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 12:05:00 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

I know I have *never* come across one that has a metal case and earth.



Harry B mentioned submersible pumps,I dont think he was restricting the
scope to just pond and aquarium pumps. Not many will have need for a 415
volt one of those in their house.

I €˜m surprised you have never seen a submersible pump for sale or in use
with a metal case in one of the sheds or somewhere like Machine Mart or an
agricultural supplies firm.



GH

On 13 May 2018 12:54:37 GMT, Marland
wrote:

T i m wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 12:05:00 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

I know I have *never* come across one that has a metal case and earth.



Harry B mentioned submersible pumps,

I know?

I don’t think he was restricting the
scope to just pond and aquarium pumps.

No, but he did include 240V pumps.

Not many will have need for a 415
volt one of those in their house.

See above. ;-)

I ‘m surprised you have never seen a submersible pump for sale or in use
with a metal case in one of the sheds or somewhere like Machine Mart or an
agricultural supplies firm.

Strange but true. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 13/05/2018 12:05, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc.* That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

The shape of the 'pump' suggests it may be a vibrating diaphragm type
pump - no rotating parts, just a diaphragm caused to vibrate at mains
frequency.

More likely a small, centrifugal pump, like a submersible fishtank pump.
The cable is connected to the motor and the entire unit is potted. The
pump rotor sits in the water and is driven magnetically. They are only
small - the bulk of the unit being the attached filter, not the pump.

SteveW

Thanks for all the reposes, particularly those that pointed out that
mains submersible pumps etc are not forbidden per se.

I will limit my complaint to the non-compliant plug.
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

It's indescribably vulgar.

Bill

Bill Wright wrote:

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

It's indescribably vulgar.

Bill

Generally speaking I, too, am a snob when it comes to ornyments; but I
think that thing has a certain je ne sais quoi about it. And I like
watery things.


--

Roger Hayter

On Sunday, 13 May 2018 02:20:19 UTC+1, Graham. wrote:
I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.


The importer/brand owner has a very basic website, but appears to be easily contactable in the UK.

Or you could contact their local trading standards office direct. :-)

Owain

Martin expressed precisely :
Report it to trading standards

--

+1..

On 13/05/2018 13:15, Martin wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:20:17 +0100, Graham. wrote:


I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.


No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

Report it to trading standards


Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/

Scotland and NI have their own equivalents.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:03:10 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/

If you're reporting a breach of a particular safety regulation for enforcement action that's not "help about a consumer issue". The OP already knows more about the safety regulations than any CAB advisor :-)

Owain

On 13/05/2018 14:13, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:03:10 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/

If you're reporting a breach of a particular safety regulation for enforcement action that's not "help about a consumer issue". The OP already knows more about the safety regulations than any CAB advisor :-)



National Trading Standards have consistently told people:

"If you believe that any online or face-to-face seller is selling
potentially dangerous goods, or something youve bought has made you
suspicious, report it to Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline on 03454 04
05 06."

http://www.nationaltradingstandards....safety-checks/


AIUI that's to filter reports and avoid TS staff spending time on
calls/correspondence. But yes, if the OP knows eg *which* Trading
Standards team will deal with the firm, and that they don't already have
enforcement action in progress against them...


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/05/2018 14:34, Robin wrote:
On 13/05/2018 14:13, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:03:10 UTC+1, RobinÂ* wrote:
Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/


If you're reporting a breach of a particular safety regulation for
enforcement action that's not "help about a consumer issue". The OP
already knows more about the safety regulations than any CAB advisor :-)



National Trading Standards have consistently told people:

"If you believe that any online or face-to-face seller is selling
potentially dangerous goods, or something youve bought has made you
suspicious, report it to Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline on 03454 04
05 06."

http://www.nationaltradingstandards....safety-checks/

AIUI that's to filter reports and avoid TS staff spending time on
calls/correspondence.Â* But yes, if the OP knows eg *which* Trading
Standards team will deal with the firm, and that they don't already have
enforcement action in progress against them...

IOW they don't care if Citizens Advice waste their time as they are a
charity.

--
Max Demian

On 13/05/2018 22:10, Max Demian wrote:
On 13/05/2018 14:34, Robin wrote:
On 13/05/2018 14:13, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:03:10 UTC+1, RobinÂ* wrote:
Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/


If you're reporting a breach of a particular safety regulation for
enforcement action that's not "help about a consumer issue". The OP
already knows more about the safety regulations than any CAB advisor :-)



National Trading Standards have consistently told people:

"If you believe that any online or face-to-face seller is selling
potentially dangerous goods, or something youve bought has made you
suspicious, report it to Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline on 03454 04
05 06."

http://www.nationaltradingstandards....safety-checks/


AIUI that's to filter reports and avoid TS staff spending time on
calls/correspondence.Â* But yes, if the OP knows eg *which* Trading
Standards team will deal with the firm, and that they don't already
have enforcement action in progress against them...

IOW they don't care if Citizens Advice waste their time as they are a
charity.

Citizens Advice gets money from government to provide a public service
and is accountable to government for what it delivers*; TS teams can
stick to their knitting rather than having staff available all the time
to deal with phone calls complaining about - say - the fact furniture
from Ikea comes flat packed; and citizens get a more efficient service
with a single point of contact.

* I'm out of date but a few years ago it had around three quarters of
its funds from the Department for Business, Innovation & Skills.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/05/2018 14:13, wrote:

The OP already knows more about the safety regulations than any CAB
advisor :-)

And I am going to sent the photos to work to see if the apprentices
(that have done a PAT testing course) know more than the OP.

I don't know how many other people would have noticed what the OP
spotted. I looked at Graham's photos before reading his post.


And for anyone wishing to find out if a fuse is a counterfeit there is this

https://www.pat-testing-training.net...fake-fuses.php


--
Adam

On 13/05/2018 14:03, Robin wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:15, Martin wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:20:17 +0100, Graham.
wrote:


I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.


No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

Report it to trading standards


Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/


Scotland and NI have their own equivalents.


What about these people?

http://www.doesitcomply.co.uk/



--
Adam

On 14/05/2018 18:41, ARW wrote:
snip


What about these people?

http://www.doesitcomply.co.uk/


Interesting, thanks, but short answer is "dunno 'guv". Would you use
them if you came across counterfeit stuff?

Longer answer is that on the one hand I can see it's a way to target
people in the trade ("The mission is to educate and inform contractors,
installers, and specifiers...") rather than consumers.

On the other hand I'm cynical that it's (also) a way for Voltimum to
build its business worldwide by blurring the line between commercial and
public service, in the process gathering info. to send promotional
emails, carry out market research etc. The more so as they are
economical about just how they "notify the relevant state regulator".
I'd be more impressed if they could report eg National Trading Standards
as partners rather than just pray in aid the EIC Charter (which is a
venture with Trading Standards UK but AFAICS not with Voltimum).

On the third hand, I see they do include[1] the advice "Alternatively,
you can report it to Trading Standards via the Citizens Advice website
www.adviceguide.org.uk or call the Citizens Advice consumer helpline on
08454 04 05 06"

[1] at
http://www.doesitcomply.co.uk/articl...ow-the-whistle

Mind you that page'd be better if they gave the up to date number "03454
04 05 06) and linked direct the the page for TS reports
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-more-help/report-to-trading-standards/
But perhaps they gave the website to an apprentice.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Sorry for posting in the wrong place, but I had not seen the OP. I am a
bit late to this party (been having internet access issues for a couple
of weeks), so this is the first time I have seen Graham's original post
quoted in full...

On 14/05/2018 18:41, ARW wrote:
On 13/05/2018 14:03, Robin wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:15, Martin wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:20:17 +0100, Graham.
wrote:


I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

Not actually that uncommon for submersible pumps in general.

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

Indeed.

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

*if* the flex is genuine (and that is a big if), then it probably is
adequately fault protected by a 13A fuse (assuming that is also to
spec). Overload protection won't be required here.

So yes, a 3A fuse would be more appropriate, but should be safe with a
13A assuming everything is built to the expected specification.

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.

Could equally be ali ;-)

No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

Something ending in a 7 or 8 - i.e. intended for continuous immersion.
(7 if its designed for a depth of no more than 1m)


So looking at that lot, the plug is suspect, as is the fuse. The other
bits are "ok" if they match the claims made by their marking. (which I
would not be surprised if that turned out to not be the case)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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\================================================= ================/

On 13/05/2018 13:15, Martin wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:20:17 +0100, Graham. wrote:


I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.


No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

Report it to trading standards

But get your refund first. No point reporting it to the shop people as
they won't be interested/aren't equipped to deal with H&S matters.

--
Max Demian