I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.


No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On Sunday, 13 May 2018 02:20:19 UTC+1, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

that's normal

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

yes, and it'll fail any basic safety test

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

not ASTM approved, another safety fail

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.

given the above 2 features I'd not be surprised if the flex is not what it claims, who knows.

No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

I don't know if trading standards will care enough to do anything. The things may be noncompliant but that's all. Stuff like that is somewhat common.

On something that doesn't match what it should, any claimed IP rating is worth little. The only way to find out will be to disassemble it.

I wouldn't get too excited, just reject it on safety & legal compliance grounds.


NT

That sounds very suspicious. All the features I've seen run at low voltage,
unless its a huge thing as often used in shopping centres.
Sounds like a nightmare when you consider what rats can do to cables on the
ground with no protection.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 02:20:19 UTC+1, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

that's normal

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

yes, and it'll fail any basic safety test

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

not ASTM approved, another safety fail

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.

given the above 2 features I'd not be surprised if the flex is not what it
claims, who knows.

No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

I don't know if trading standards will care enough to do anything. The
things may be noncompliant but that's all. Stuff like that is somewhat
common.

On something that doesn't match what it should, any claimed IP rating is
worth little. The only way to find out will be to disassemble it.

I wouldn't get too excited, just reject it on safety & legal compliance
grounds.


NT

On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:20:17 +0100, Graham.
wrote:


I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

snip

Isn't that exactly the same case with every fish tank heater /
thermostat, underwater fan or submersible (mains) / pond pumps etc so
not an issue in itself?

snip more relevant points though

Cheers, T i m

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f



Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.


http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

--
Adam

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.


Well the cert should be on the company's webs site. Here it is;-)

https://fshaike.en.china.cn/quality.html

Personally I would like to see the product pulled off the market.

--
Adam

Graham. wrote:

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

--
Chris Green
·

Brian Gaff wrote:

That sounds very suspicious. All the features I've seen run at low voltage,
unless its a huge thing as often used in shopping centres.
Sounds like a nightmare when you consider what rats can do to cables on the
ground with no protection.
Brian

Mains voltage submersible pumps are commonplace. I doubt if rodents are
a significant factor for an indoor water feature with the flex in a room
rather than in the house structure. An RCD should protect against live
leakage to the water. So the arrangement could be perfectly
satisfactory, as long as RCD protected against deterioration of the
rubber underwater seal. Whether this item is perfectly satisfactory
cannot be detected from the picture, but on the face of it it could be.


--

Roger Hayter

ARW wrote:

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f



Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.


http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

I have never understood why wholly plastic earth pins are not allowed.
They are common on wall wart type power supplies and I really don't see
that they have any disadvantage over an unconnected metal pin.

--

Roger Hayter

It happens that Roger Hayter formulated :
Mains voltage submersible pumps are commonplace. I doubt if rodents are
a significant factor for an indoor water feature with the flex in a room
rather than in the house structure. An RCD should protect against live
leakage to the water. So the arrangement could be perfectly
satisfactory, as long as RCD protected against deterioration of the
rubber underwater seal.

The RCD would only trip, if the leakage to the water, had somewhere to
go beyond the water. By the looks of it, then it would not be, unless
someone in contact with an earth were to poke a finger in the water.

Personally, I would not want that unit in my home at all, I would class
it as extremely dangerous, if not the risk of shock, the risk of fire.
The Chinese care nothing for safety, nothing for meeting standards and
take every opportunity to fake standards.

On 13/05/2018 11:19, Roger Hayter wrote:
ARW wrote:

On 13/05/2018 02:20, Graham. wrote:

I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f



Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.


http://www.bs1363.org.uk/

I have never understood why wholly plastic earth pins are not allowed.
They are common on wall wart type power supplies and I really don't see
that they have any disadvantage over an unconnected metal pin.


Adam's link includes: "However, earth pins must be solid brass, or, in
the case of plugs intended solely for use with non-earthed devices,
solid plastic. "




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin formulated the question :
Adam's link includes: "However, earth pins must be solid brass, or, in the
case of plugs intended solely for use with non-earthed devices, solid
plastic. "

It makes no mention of half and half.

Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

The shape of the 'pump' suggests it may be a vibrating diaphragm type
pump - no rotating parts, just a diaphragm caused to vibrate at mains
frequency.

On 13/05/18 11:58, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Robin formulated the question :
Adam's link includes: "However, earth pins must be solid brass, or, in
the case of plugs intended solely for use with non-earthed devices,
solid plastic. "

It makes no mention of half and half.

If you hadn't snipped the original content, your comment is null & void.

On 13/05/2018 11:58, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Robin formulated the question :
Adam's link includes: "However, earth pins must be solid brass, or, in
the case of plugs intended solely for use with non-earthed devices,
solid plastic. "

It makes no mention of half and half.

Did you miss this bit in the link?

PLEASE NOTE: Plugs with partially sleeved earth pins are ALWAYS
counterfeit, and are not allowed to be sold, even for non-earthed
applications.

--
Adam

ARW submitted this idea :
Did you miss this bit in the link?

PLEASE NOTE: Plugs with partially sleeved earth pins are ALWAYS counterfeit,
and are not allowed to be sold, even for non-earthed applications.

OK - It made no mention in the quote of half and half earth pins being
acceptable. Obviously that is a counterfeit plug and a counterfeit
fuse.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

Many pond pumps are all plastic in external appearance ,the electric motor
and connections are sealed in the moulding. The impeller is driven by a
magnetic coupling so there is no shaft seal to wear and leak.
The magnet on the impeller is also enclosed in plastic so it doesnt
corrode and may actually be made as a combined component.
The ones in my pond have done more than ten years service now but are
manufactured by a German company to a reasonable standard and costs more
accordingly. One is a pump for a water feature the other a floating
skimming device for leaf debris etc.
The cable is often a sign of a better quality unit , the flex on more
expensive ones is a more flexible rubber type than plain PVC.

GH

On Sun, 13 May 2018 12:05:00 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

I know I have *never* come across one that has a metal case and earth.

I have also come across many many fish tank heaters where the element
is in a glass tube and only 'sealed' with a rubber grommet (that could
be pulled out to allow you to adjust the thermostat, so not even
sealed and bonded).

Cheers, T i m

On 13/05/2018 13:05, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW submitted this idea :
Did you miss this bit in the link?

PLEASE NOTE: Plugs with partially sleeved earth pins are ALWAYS
counterfeit, and are not allowed to be sold, even for non-earthed
applications.

OK - It made no mention in the quote of half and half earth pins being
acceptable. Obviously that is a counterfeit plug and a counterfeit fuse.

Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point - viz
"I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic earth
pins are not allowed."

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point - viz "I
have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic earth pins are
not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally
broken earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a
socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

Martin expressed precisely :
Report it to trading standards

--

+1..

On 13/05/2018 11:19, Roger Hayter wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:

That sounds very suspicious. All the features I've seen run at low voltage,
unless its a huge thing as often used in shopping centres.
Sounds like a nightmare when you consider what rats can do to cables on the
ground with no protection.
Brian

Mains voltage submersible pumps are commonplace.

Yes, I had one in my smaller fishtank - along with mains voltage
submersible heaters in both tanks.

SteveW

On 13/05/2018 12:05, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc.* That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

The shape of the 'pump' suggests it may be a vibrating diaphragm type
pump - no rotating parts, just a diaphragm caused to vibrate at mains
frequency.

More likely a small, centrifugal pump, like a submersible fishtank pump.
The cable is connected to the motor and the entire unit is potted. The
pump rotor sits in the water and is driven magnetically. They are only
small - the bulk of the unit being the attached filter, not the pump.

SteveW

Thanks for all the reposes, particularly those that pointed out that
mains submersible pumps etc are not forbidden per se.

I will limit my complaint to the non-compliant plug.
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

T i m wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 12:05:00 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

I know I have *never* come across one that has a metal case and earth.



Harry B mentioned submersible pumps,I dont think he was restricting the
scope to just pond and aquarium pumps. Not many will have need for a 415
volt one of those in their house.

I €˜m surprised you have never seen a submersible pump for sale or in use
with a metal case in one of the sheds or somewhere like Machine Mart or an
agricultural supplies firm.



GH

It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point - viz "I
have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic earth pins are
not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally
broken earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a
socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

John Ward (JW) on his Youtbe channel calls it an Insulated Shutter
Opening Device

https://youtu.be/p_1y_0GdTFc?t=115

I have often seen the plastic pin break off, sometimes leaving
themselves stuck in the socket. This is unlikly to happen with a brass
pin, even if it is shrouded, so in my mind, as long as the applience
is using L&N only, the shrouded earth pin itself is better than a
plastic one, but obviously sounds alarm bells as to what else might be
wrong.
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On 13/05/2018 13:15, Martin wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:20:17 +0100, Graham. wrote:


I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.


No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

Report it to trading standards


Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/

Scotland and NI have their own equivalents.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally broken
earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

They tend to break off, then you have to plug the device into the same
socket and nothing else there. I don't know whether they are still made,
but you could get 13A sockets which didn't rely on the earth pin to open
the shutter - you just had to insert pins into both line and neutral
simultaneously. That's a better idea as devices that don't require an
earth just need two pins. Our 13A plugs and sockets are rather a rubbish
design.

--
Max Demian

On 13/05/2018 13:15, Martin wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 02:20:17 +0100, Graham. wrote:


I bought this indoor fountain from a large and otherwise reputable
garden centre.

The first thing I noticed that it was broken, a leaf had broken off
the stem, so I will need to return it, then I noticed the electrical
parts and decided no way do I want a replacement.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/0y244f

As you can see the little submersible pump is mains powered, the flex
goes straight in the water!

Other things worthy of note, the earth pin is shrouded, OK there is no
connection to it but it's a sure sign that any compliance markings are
fake.

The so called BS 1363 fuse is probably fake and has no arc quenching
sand, it weighs a gram less than genuine ones. It's also 13A, I would
have expected 3A in such an item

The cable is probably copper, it's not attracted to a magnet it has
2X0.75mm^2 embossed on it, but who know without an autopsy.


No doubt I will get my money back, but I want to make it clear to the
garden centre that this is a serious trading standards issue and they
need to take their remaining stock off the shelves.

I just want to check that what I say to them is completely factual, in
particular what would be the IP rating of a genuine mains submersible
pump, if indeed such a thing exists.

Report it to trading standards

But get your refund first. No point reporting it to the shop people as
they won't be interested/aren't equipped to deal with H&S matters.

--
Max Demian

On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally broken
earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

You haven't read the webpage linked to have you? It clearly says "To
ensure that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means
that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully
inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all
plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

SteveW

On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:03:10 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/

If you're reporting a breach of a particular safety regulation for enforcement action that's not "help about a consumer issue". The OP already knows more about the safety regulations than any CAB advisor :-)

Owain

Max Demian laid this down on his screen :
They tend to break off, then you have to plug the device into the same socket
and nothing else there. I don't know whether they are still made, but you
could get 13A sockets which didn't rely on the earth pin to open the shutter
- you just had to insert pins into both line and neutral simultaneously.
That's a better idea as devices that don't require an earth just need two
pins. Our 13A plugs and sockets are rather a rubbish design.

I think I remember when 13A sockets were not required to have the
shutters(??)

On 13/05/2018 14:13, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:03:10 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
Trading standards teams generally expect consumer complaints to be
channelled through Citizens Advice: in E&W
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...onsumer-issue/

If you're reporting a breach of a particular safety regulation for enforcement action that's not "help about a consumer issue". The OP already knows more about the safety regulations than any CAB advisor :-)



National Trading Standards have consistently told people:

"If you believe that any online or face-to-face seller is selling
potentially dangerous goods, or something youve bought has made you
suspicious, report it to Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline on 03454 04
05 06."

http://www.nationaltradingstandards....safety-checks/


AIUI that's to filter reports and avoid TS staff spending time on
calls/correspondence. But yes, if the OP knows eg *which* Trading
Standards team will deal with the firm, and that they don't already have
enforcement action in progress against them...


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Steve Walker laid this down on his screen :
You haven't read the webpage linked to have you?

No, not fully - I only scanned it, between doing other tasks like
peeling spuds and driving the tractor round to cut the grass.
It clearly says "To ensure
that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the socket many
sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means that continuity
is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully inserted!" Hence why
earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all plastic if an earth is
not required for the device).

Yes of course, my bad!

On 13/05/2018 14:04, Max Demian wrote:
I don't know whether they are still made,
but you could get 13A sockets which didn't rely on the earth pin to open
the shutter - you just had to insert pins into both line and neutral
simultaneously. That's a better idea as devices that don't require an
earth just need two pins. Our 13A plugs and sockets are rather a rubbish
design.


MK make them.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:PAT_test.jpg

--
Adam

On 13/05/2018 14:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Steve Walker laid this down on his screen :
You haven't read the webpage linked to have you?

No, not fully - I only scanned it, between doing other tasks like
peeling spuds and driving the tractor round to cut the grass.
It clearly says "To ensure
that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this
means that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth
is fully inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all
brass (or all plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

Yes of course, my bad!


I was wondering he you had left your brains in bed this morning or were
doing something else when reading it!

--
Adam

ARW presented the following explanation :
I was wondering he you had left your brains in bed this morning or were doing
something else when reading it!


--

I always multiplex Þ

On 13 May 2018 12:54:37 GMT, Marland
wrote:

T i m wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2018 12:05:00 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Chris Green expressed precisely :
That is absolutely normal now with pond pumps etc. That's not to say
that this one is good but the 'design' is allowed I think.

Various clues suggest that item is dangerous. Yes it is common to have
more robustly built 240 or even 415v pumps submerged, but that doesn't
look all that robust. I don't think I have ever come across one which
didn't include a metal case and an earth.

I know I have *never* come across one that has a metal case and earth.



Harry B mentioned submersible pumps,

I know?

I don’t think he was restricting the
scope to just pond and aquarium pumps.

No, but he did include 240V pumps.

Not many will have need for a 415
volt one of those in their house.

See above. ;-)

I ‘m surprised you have never seen a submersible pump for sale or in use
with a metal case in one of the sheds or somewhere like Machine Mart or an
agricultural supplies firm.

Strange but true. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sunday, 13 May 2018 14:07:39 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/05/2018 13:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different* point -
viz "I have never understood why *wholly* [emphasis added] plastic
earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed, the
partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break. On something
which requires an earth, the last thing you want is an internally broken
earth pin, which might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers, even
folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.

You haven't read the webpage linked to have you? It clearly says "To
ensure that the earth connection is made as soon as the plug touches the
socket many sockets place the contact right at the faceplate, this means
that continuity is lost as soon as a plug with a sleeved earth is fully
inserted!" Hence why earth pins are only allowed to be all brass (or all
plastic if an earth is not required for the device).

SteveW

that explanation does not make sense.

Harry Bloomfield wrote
Robin wrote

Yes, but the context of the text I quoted was a *different*
point - viz "I have never understood why *wholly*
[emphasis added] plastic earth pins are not allowed."

I would imagine that is because if a brass pin is actually needed,
the partially sleeved ones have more of a tendency to break.

Havent seen that on any sleeved pin, it doesn't even see the
metal; of the pin smaller than it would be on a non sleeved
one and they are pretty solid on the british ones anyway.

IMO its more likely they arent allowed to be sleeved in case
of a poor out of spec socket sees the earth not make contact
with one where the earth pin is required to conduct.

On something which requires an earth, the last thing
you want is an internally broken earth pin, which
might still allow you to plug the plug into a socket.

Sure, but IMO its unlikely the reason for the ban.

Plastic earth pins are allowed on the likes of phone chargers,
even folding ones. There, just to push the shields out of the way.