Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
T i m wrote:
The idea of not carrying a few tools around for when they are inevitably
needed seems odd to me.

Likewise, which is exactly what my Leatherman is to me, just as my
hands or feet are 'tools' and aren't (under my daily use) used as
weapons, although they could be?

And in a recent high profile killing, the weapon was a screwdriver.

It is almost always things like that or kitchen knifes, extremely rarely
pocket knifes.



Maybe it depends what sort of person you are and what you could
typically be doing at nearly any time of the day. Like, it's a Bank
Holiday Monday and just gone noon and I've already used my Leatherman
3 or 4 times, just 'pottering about'.

You've been pottering about the streets looking for things to fix? Don't
think many would object to you carrying any tools you wish around the
house - or on the way to a job where they'll be needed.

Huge wrote:
On 2018-05-07, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
T i m wrote:

So for those of us who regularly carry a 'pen / pocket-knife' or
multitool with a non-locking sub 3" blade
I think with the current knife-crime issue, there's zero chance of
getting the classifications relaxed as 'they' don't want to send out any
message that is seen to condone carrying knives.

I carry a small Stanley knife (along with a handful of screwdrivers,
pliers, penlight, etc) in my laptop bag, but that is basically only ever
in my house, car, or on a customer site, the times I'd even walk down a
road with it are rare, so I don't plan to remove the knife.

The idea of carrying around a multi-tool at all times just in case it
might be needed seems odd to me.

After all, Mother State will look after you at all times, right? And
indeed, once everything is owned and controlled by the State, you
won't need any tools, because everything will be perfect.

Probably those who would also object to an ID card.

Huh! One determining factor seems to be a recognition of their inability
to map read well enough to follow a footpath. The multi-tool provides a
way forward without significant loss of face.

I've been carrying a Leatherman for nearly 30 years. I can map-read perfectly
well.


I have been carrying a pocket knife for over 60 years including to
school, I used to carve ducks from balsa with a razor blade under the
desk at school, I have never killed anyone.

On Mon, 7 May 2018 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, 8 May 2018 00:31:44 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Huge wrote:

The idea of carrying around a multi-tool at all times just in case it
might be needed seems odd to me.

After all, Mother State will look after you at all times, right?

Are you ****ed again?

And
indeed, once everything is owned and controlled by the State, you
won't need any tools, because everything will be perfect.

Try reading what you've written when sober and see if it still makes sense
to you. If it does seek treatment.

I just find it very funny some on here won't even leave the house without
taking things for every eventuality with them.

No-one ever mentioned being prepared for every eventuality. But being trivially easily prepared for some common situations seems sensible enough.

Certainly to those of us with many many years experience of relying
(in many cases) on such. eg, a 'number of times' the fact that I had
*MY* multitool on *ME* has saved the day. From replacing the clutch
cable on the Sierra Estate at the side of the road to removing some
swarf from the float valve on my Bedford CF campervan. I had a
reasonable set of tools on the van, including a socket set and a range
of ring and open ended spanners but not the right size open ender to
undo the fuel pipe union or a screwdriver short enough to undo the
float bowl screws themselves (tight under the bulkhead). The
Leatherman coped with both and 10 minutes later we were on our way.
Yes I could have called the AA but this was before I had a mobile
phone, we were on a hard shoulder of a dual carriageway and I had the
means and ability to sort it out myself. Leatherman Multitools aren't
cheap so am I expected to keep one in / on every vehicle I own and
every one I travel in? Similar situation with every house I visit
where they don't have tools but something needs fixing?

It's no longer legal though.

It isn't? Even if it's a 'permitted' daily carry?

Huge does have a point this time.

That's the thing. Pistols were banned from private ownership in spite
of few legally held guns ever being involved in crime. Even though
they are illegal it doesn't seem to stop people using them to shoot
other people in our cities (often in broad daylight), just as driving
without all the proper paperwork or dealing drugs is pretty common.
;-(

As long as people want to hurt / rob other people the criminals will
find a way and it will be completely irrelevant what 'laws' they put
in place to try to prevent that. I'm not saying we shouldn't do
anything, it's just what we do shouldn't also impact the everyday law
abiding citizen.

Start arresting every reasonable and law abiding person for carrying a
'permitted' pocket knife or multitool just because a minority use
'knives' (and rarely pocket knives or Multitools) for crime against
the person and there simply wouldn't be enough prison places
available.

The only way to prevent such crime is to have metal detectors and
security on every house door and in the middle of every street, and
forcing everyone though them (and searching every car) as mentioned,
as a Nanny State.

Would even 'life' or the death penalty stop many do you think (before
they are caught I mean). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 8 May 2018 12:58:13 +1000, FMurtz wrote:

Huge wrote:
snip

I've been carrying a Leatherman for nearly 30 years. I can map-read perfectly
well.


I have been carrying a pocket knife for over 60 years including to
school, I used to carve ducks from balsa with a razor blade under the
desk at school,

;-)

I have never killed anyone.

Good to know. ;-)

What we are actually talking about here isn't knives or even guns it's
the people holding them and their reason / justification so to do.

So it's basically down (IMHO and to some degree) down to one being a
'Warm and fuzzy' (who wouldn't typically hurt anyone, possibly only in
self defence) or a 'Cold and prickly' would wouldn't care if they hurt
someone (even if they didn't have to) as long as they got what they
wanted.

Isn't that why soldiers have their 'Warm and fuzzy' drilled out of
them but many still suffer later with the likes of PCSD? Isn't a
reason many (young especially) knife carriers give is that it's 'kill
or be killed' (as an innocent victim)?

I think a lot of is down to respect ... the lost of respect for those
they should be respecting (their parents, the Police, fellow citizens)
and an ill founded sense of respect for things that are bogus (like
their postcode or their 'right' to supply drugs in that area etc).

Cheers, T i m

On 06/05/18 19:55, Steve Walker wrote:
On 06/05/2018 19:25, Andy Burns wrote:
Cursitor Doom wrote:

TimW wrote:

I have an idea that folding knives with locking handles are
illegal
I'd be very, very surprised if that were so.

Prepare to be surprised ...

https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

Yes, apparently, according to minutes from the meetings that took place
to prepare this legislation, it was made clear that the intention was to
not make locking knives illegal, as it was considered a safety feature
to prevent work knives suddenly folding in use. Somehow that was omitted
and they have never gone back to change the law.

As with a number of laws which were flawed when written and never
amended. I wonder why the powers that be seem happy to write new laws
but often seem unwilling to correct old one.

--

Jeff

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 May 2018 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, 8 May 2018 00:31:44 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Huge wrote:

The idea of carrying around a multi-tool at all times just in case
it
might be needed seems odd to me.

After all, Mother State will look after you at all times, right?

Are you ****ed again?

And
indeed, once everything is owned and controlled by the State, you
won't need any tools, because everything will be perfect.

Try reading what you've written when sober and see if it still makes
sense
to you. If it does seek treatment.

I just find it very funny some on here won't even leave the house
without
taking things for every eventuality with them.

No-one ever mentioned being prepared for every eventuality. But being
trivially easily prepared for some common situations seems sensible
enough.

Certainly to those of us with many many years experience of relying
(in many cases) on such. eg, a 'number of times' the fact that I had
*MY* multitool on *ME* has saved the day. From replacing the clutch
cable on the Sierra Estate at the side of the road to removing some
swarf from the float valve on my Bedford CF campervan. I had a
reasonable set of tools on the van, including a socket set and a range
of ring and open ended spanners but not the right size open ender to
undo the fuel pipe union or a screwdriver short enough to undo the
float bowl screws themselves (tight under the bulkhead). The
Leatherman coped with both and 10 minutes later we were on our way.
Yes I could have called the AA but this was before I had a mobile
phone, we were on a hard shoulder of a dual carriageway and I had the
means and ability to sort it out myself. Leatherman Multitools aren't
cheap so am I expected to keep one in / on every vehicle I own and
every one I travel in? Similar situation with every house I visit
where they don't have tools but something needs fixing?

It's no longer legal though.

It isn't? Even if it's a 'permitted' daily carry?

Huge does have a point this time.

That's the thing. Pistols were banned from private ownership in spite
of few legally held guns ever being involved in crime. Even though
they are illegal it doesn't seem to stop people using them to shoot
other people in our cities (often in broad daylight), just as driving
without all the proper paperwork or dealing drugs is pretty common.
;-(

But making it illegal to carry particular knives does
allow the cops to arrest, charge and convict those they
find doing that, they don't have to wait until they stab
someone with it and have to prove that they did that.

As long as people want to hurt / rob other people the criminals
will find a way and it will be completely irrelevant what 'laws'
they put in place to try to prevent that. I'm not saying we
shouldn't do anything, it's just what we do shouldn't also
impact the everyday law abiding citizen.

Not possible with that last with knives. And hardly any law abiding citizen
is impacted much when knives with less than a 3" blades are allowed.

Sure, a few may have to get a new multitool, but that is hardly
the end of civilisation as we know it. Just like not allowing you
to carry what can be used to stab people in hand bags on planes.

Start arresting every reasonable and law abiding person
for carrying a 'permitted' pocket knife or multitool

That isnt what happens.

just because a minority use 'knives' (and rarely pocket
knives or Multitools) for crime against the person and
there simply wouldn't be enough prison places available.

But if any pocket knife was allowed, those arseholes that stab people
would just have those instead of the knives they currently use.

The only way to prevent such crime is to have metal
detectors and security on every house door and in the
middle of every street, and forcing everyone though them
(and searching every car) as mentioned, as a Nanny State.

Banning knives that are used to stab people does allow the
cops to arrest, charge and convict those they find with those
knives without having to catch them stabbing someone.

That reality TV series 'Ambulance' has an amazing number
of those who get stabbed and need an ambulance every
single day in London, even with the ban in place. Very
few of the stabbers ever get arrested, let alone convicted.

Would even 'life' or the death penalty stop many
do you think (before they are caught I mean). ;-)

In message , Huge
writes
On 2018-05-07, Tim Lamb wrote:

Huh! One determining factor seems to be a recognition of their inability
to map read well enough to follow a footpath. The multi-tool provides a
way forward without significant loss of face.

I've been carrying a Leatherman for nearly 30 years. I can map-read perfectly
well.

OK. I hope, faced with an agricultural barbed wire fence, you would have
the courtesy to accept that it was there for legitimate reasons and
choose an alternative route or climb over without damage.

Sold off ex-railway land is an example here. The stretch bought by the
County Council is open for cyclists, walkers and horseriders. The
private stretch, bought by our then landlords, is levelled, fenced and
cropped. Roughly once a year (since 1977) rather than walk along the
by-pass verge, some misguided pedestrian will climb over the initial
post and rail fence (topped with barbed wire) and then cut their way out
to join a bridleway.



--
Tim Lamb

In article ,
wrote:
I just find it very funny some on here won't even leave the house
without taking things for every eventuality with them.

No-one ever mentioned being prepared for every eventuality. But being
trivially easily prepared for some common situations seems sensible
enough. It's no longer legal though. Huge does have a point this time.

Well, I've been told you need your Leatherman, a torch, your phone and
gawd knows what else when you pop out to post a letter. So I'd guess you'd
add to that your wallet with every single card etc you might ever need and
your Kindle in case you decide to have a read on the way.

By the time you've stowed that lot away, you've missed the last post...

--
*My wife has a slight impediment in her speech. She stops to breathe.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Certainly to those of us with many many years experience of relying
(in many cases) on such. eg, a 'number of times' the fact that I had
*MY* multitool on *ME* has saved the day. From replacing the clutch
cable on the Sierra Estate at the side of the road to removing some
swarf from the float valve on my Bedford CF campervan.

You actually have a vehicle and don't carry a basic toolkit in it? That is
silly.

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
wrote:
I just find it very funny some on here won't even leave the house
without taking things for every eventuality with them.

No-one ever mentioned being prepared for every eventuality. But being
trivially easily prepared for some common situations seems sensible
enough. It's no longer legal though. Huge does have a point this time.

Well, I've been told you need your Leatherman, a torch, your phone and
gawd knows what else when you pop out to post a letter. So I'd guess you'd
add to that your wallet with every single card etc you might ever need and
your Kindle in case you decide to have a read on the way.

By the time you've stowed that lot away, you've missed the last post...

:-)

I carry an upper range Swiss Army Knife, no magnifier or pozi-drive but
it does have an a corkscrew to the detriment of my pocket linings.

I also carry my full complement of cards without much concern. I don't
*shop* as such and consider myself a poor target for pickpockets.


--
Tim Lamb

On Tuesday, 8 May 2018 11:55:22 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:

I carry an upper range Swiss Army Knife,

this one?
https://www.amazon.com/Wenger-16999-.../dp/B001DZTJRQ


NT

On Tue, 08 May 2018 06:24:20 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

On Tuesday, 8 May 2018 11:55:22 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:

I carry an upper range Swiss Army Knife,

this one?
https://www.amazon.com/Wenger-16999-.../dp/B001DZTJRQ

Useless. Tha blades are blunt.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 May 2018 11:55:22 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:

I carry an upper range Swiss Army Knife,

this one?
https://www.amazon.com/Wenger-16999-.../dp/B001DZTJRQ


NT

That is the most useless thing I have ever seen

On 08/05/2018 14:24, wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 May 2018 11:55:22 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:

I carry an upper range Swiss Army Knife,

this one?
https://www.amazon.com/Wenger-16999-.../dp/B001DZTJRQ


Check out the reviews, brilliant.

Mike (Sent from my Wenger 16999)

In message ,
writes
On Tuesday, 8 May 2018 11:55:22 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:

I carry an upper range Swiss Army Knife,

this one?
https://www.amazon.com/Wenger-16999-.../dp/B001DZTJRQ

Ha! And the trailer to carry!

While I do use the screwdriver blades, I have found the rivets securing
the blade assembly can fail if subjected to regular twisting forces.

--
Tim Lamb

On Tue, 08 May 2018 10:44:36 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Certainly to those of us with many many years experience of relying
(in many cases) on such. eg, a 'number of times' the fact that I had
*MY* multitool on *ME* has saved the day. From replacing the clutch
cable on the Sierra Estate at the side of the road to removing some
swarf from the float valve on my Bedford CF campervan.

You actually have a vehicle and don't carry a basic toolkit in it?

No?

That is
silly.

Yes, it would be (IMHO).

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 8 May 2018 09:35:39 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Huge
writes
On 2018-05-07, Tim Lamb wrote:

Huh! One determining factor seems to be a recognition of their inability
to map read well enough to follow a footpath. The multi-tool provides a
way forward without significant loss of face.

I've been carrying a Leatherman for nearly 30 years. I can map-read perfectly
well.

OK. I hope, faced with an agricultural barbed wire fence, you would have
the courtesy to accept that it was there for legitimate reasons and
choose an alternative route or climb over without damage.

Why would Huge / I consider an act of vandalism and potentially
trespass, just because we may carry the means to do both?

Sold off ex-railway land is an example here. The stretch bought by the
County Council is open for cyclists, walkers and horseriders. The
private stretch, bought by our then landlords, is levelled, fenced and
cropped. Roughly once a year (since 1977) rather than walk along the
by-pass verge, some misguided pedestrian will climb over the initial
post and rail fence (topped with barbed wire) and then cut their way out
to join a bridleway.

Ah, so you are comparing us with criminals or 'going equipped'. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 08/05/2018 14:33, FMurtz wrote:
wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 May 2018 11:55:22 UTC+1, Tim LambÂ* wrote:

I carry an upper range Swiss Army Knife,

this one?
https://www.amazon.com/Wenger-16999-.../dp/B001DZTJRQ


NT

That is the most useless thing I have ever seen

It makes an excellent shop display.
Which I believe is what it was.

In message , T i m
writes
On Tue, 8 May 2018 09:35:39 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Huge
writes
On 2018-05-07, Tim Lamb wrote:

Huh! One determining factor seems to be a recognition of their inability
to map read well enough to follow a footpath. The multi-tool provides a
way forward without significant loss of face.

I've been carrying a Leatherman for nearly 30 years. I can map-read perfectly
well.

OK. I hope, faced with an agricultural barbed wire fence, you would have
the courtesy to accept that it was there for legitimate reasons and
choose an alternative route or climb over without damage.

Why would Huge / I consider an act of vandalism and potentially
trespass, just because we may carry the means to do both?

Ah! I only said *one* determining factor. I have no reason to believe
you or Huge are guilty of any.

There is probably a long list somewhere but it must include the widely
held belief that farmers/landowners deliberately obstruct public rights
of way.

Sold off ex-railway land is an example here. The stretch bought by the
County Council is open for cyclists, walkers and horseriders. The
private stretch, bought by our then landlords, is levelled, fenced and
cropped. Roughly once a year (since 1977) rather than walk along the
by-pass verge, some misguided pedestrian will climb over the initial
post and rail fence (topped with barbed wire) and then cut their way out
to join a bridleway.

Ah, so you are comparing us with criminals or 'going equipped'. ;-)

Definitely going equipped:-)

--
Tim Lamb

On Tue, 8 May 2018 20:52:09 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

Why would Huge / I consider an act of vandalism and potentially
trespass, just because we may carry the means to do both?

Ah! I only said *one* determining factor. I have no reason to believe
you or Huge are guilty of any.

Good. ;-)

There is probably a long list somewhere but it must include the widely
held belief that farmers/landowners deliberately obstruct public rights
of way.

Whilst I'm sure it's done and certainly has been done in the past
(especially in the more remote areas), I'm pretty sure there would be
'issues' if they tried such things today (and on the more popular /
actually used) routes.

Sold off ex-railway land is an example here. The stretch bought by the
County Council is open for cyclists, walkers and horseriders. The
private stretch, bought by our then landlords, is levelled, fenced and
cropped. Roughly once a year (since 1977) rather than walk along the
by-pass verge, some misguided pedestrian will climb over the initial
post and rail fence (topped with barbed wire) and then cut their way out
to join a bridleway.

Ah, so you are comparing us with criminals or 'going equipped'. ;-)

Definitely going equipped:-)

Good ... we are ... for all sorts of legitimate and often daily
situations. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 08 May 2018 07:55:28 +0000, Huge wrote:

Because that would mean admitting that they are wrong. Politicians are
never wrong. Because the "output" from politicians is laws. More and
more laws. (I've always favoured setting a limit, such that before they
can pass a new one, they have to repeal an old one.) Because passing new
legislation is easier than amending existing(?)

Built-in sunset clauses for all new legislation might be a way to go. Let
the damn Acts expire unless they're still genuinely needed.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

On 07/05/2018 08:57, T i m wrote:
As an aside, I think the law looks for 'sharps or points', as might
airlines and if my 88 year old Mum can have her small sewing scissors
confiscated before boarding a flight (or suggestions of people having
tweezers confiscated pre a flight), what of a fine screwdriver or awl
on a multitool?

One of my colleagues bought a nice digital micrometer in China when we
were there. Airport confiscated it

Andy

On 10/05/2018 21:48, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 07/05/2018 08:57, T i m wrote:
As an aside, I think the law looks for 'sharps or points', as might
airlines and if my 88 year old Mum can have her small sewing scissors
confiscated before boarding a flight (or suggestions of people having
tweezers confiscated pre a flight), what of a fine screwdriver or awl
on a multitool?

One of my colleagues bought a nice digital micrometer in China when we
were there. Airport confiscated it

But apparently, go to Switzerland, buy a Swiss army knife and as long as
the blade is less than 6cm, you will be allowed to board a plane from a
Swiss airport with it - but may have it confiscated if you have another
connection en-route.

The international rules are apparently 6cm, but some countries impose
stricter ones.

SteveW

On Thu, 10 May 2018 21:48:45 +0100, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 07/05/2018 08:57, T i m wrote:
As an aside, I think the law looks for 'sharps or points', as might
airlines and if my 88 year old Mum can have her small sewing scissors
confiscated before boarding a flight (or suggestions of people having
tweezers confiscated pre a flight), what of a fine screwdriver or awl
on a multitool?

One of my colleagues bought a nice digital micrometer in China when we
were there. Airport confiscated it

Why ... did they want one themselves.

Cheers, T i m