"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line
is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just
the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to
neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground
will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current
draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Bill

On 17/04/18 03:58, Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line
is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just
the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to
neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground
will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current
draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Bill
That is such nonsense.


--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 17/04/18 03:58, Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line
is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just
the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to
neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground
will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current
draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Bill


WTF? And there's no way to downvote/upvote "answers" or comment/edit them?

Looks like a rubbish site.

On 17/04/18 07:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/18 03:58, Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because
neutral doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say
that line is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from
touching just the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or
ground. Line to neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across
you. Line to ground will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill
you because the current draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Bill
That is such nonsense.



When you crowdsource stupidity...

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...


--
Theres a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

Oh dear, somebody that is not reading their specs very well.
Also the tiny amount of current needed to kill if across the heart is a
sobering thought hence the one hand in the pocket advice I have used all my
life. it can burn you, and damage nerves but its not going to kill you if
you get a shock across your fingers or hand to arm.

Incidentally has anyone here had an RF burn, that is most certainly one of
the worst pains I can recall

--
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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line is
live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just the
line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to neutral
is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground will tingle
a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current draw isn't
nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Bill

On 17/04/2018 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

You are going to be he load if you touch it.

Brian Gaff was thinking very hard :
Incidentally has anyone here had an RF burn, that is most certainly one of
the worst pains I can recall


--

Yes, lots of them. It can burn the skin, but also through to the
underlying tissue, as can HV.

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 03:58:20 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line
is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just
the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to
neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground
will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current
draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Yes some of it is ******** but you are reading it from a UK point of view and
might be interpreting it incorrectly.

They use centre tapped transformers for domestic supplies in the USA so you have
a 110v - 0v - 110v presentation, with two lives at the 110v end of the
transformer at 180 degrees phase difference and a neutral point, also being
earth at the centre tap.

You can thus have 110v loads from live to the centre tapped neutral and circa
220v across the two lives, with no neutral connection.

It's extremely similar to the 110v 55v-0v-55v transformers used here in the UK,
which when correctly wired have the centre tap properly earthed back to what is
the local 240v supply earth.

You touch either of the live connections on the secondary and you get a shock at
55v potential to ground.

You touch the centre point (equivalent of the neutral in the USA) and it's very
close to zero volts with respect to the surrounding earthing / grounding
surfaces.

You contact both secondary 'lives' and you get a shock at 110v potential
difference with 55v potential difference to earth.





--

On 17/04/2018 03:58, Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line
is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just
the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to
neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground
will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current
draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Well its wrong on so many levels... the daft comment about line to earth
being less deadly than line to neutral is perhaps the stand out bit of
"dumbness"!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/04/2018 03:58, Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line
is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just
the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to
neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground
will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current
draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Bill

Probably the same website where people were advised to dry their
dropped-in-the-toilet iPhones in the microwave.

On 17/04/2018 11:08, The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 03:58:20 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line
is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just
the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to
neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground
will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current
draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Yes some of it is ******** but you are reading it from a UK point of view and
might be interpreting it incorrectly.

Even allowing for that, its still pretty dire.

No, let me take that back. Actually allowing for that - it makes no
difference at all, its just as wrong!


They use centre tapped transformers for domestic supplies in the USA so you have
a 110v - 0v - 110v presentation, with two lives at the 110v end of the
transformer at 180 degrees phase difference and a neutral point, also being
earth at the centre tap.

Which highlights that the centre tap is earthed, and hence the comment
about a line to earth shock being less "deadly" makes no sense.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

its wrong on so many levels...

Maybe it's sponsored by the Darwin Awards?

On 17/04/2018 11:38, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/04/2018 03:58, Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line
is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just
the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to
neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground
will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current
draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Well its wrong on so many levels... the daft comment about line to earth
being less deadly than line to neutral is perhaps the stand out bit of
"dumbness"!



Unless you read it in the context of US (and possibly French and other
continental?) systems, where neutral isn't.

But yes, the problem of allowing idiots to crowdsource.

On a more philosophical point, I think it is fair to say that most of
"our" generation treats all traditional "advertising" as damned lies.

What I'd be interested to know is to what extent the snowflake
generation apply the same skepticism to anything on-line. A lot of
people seem to be quick to cry "Photoshop", but I worry whether the
percentage is high enough.

I guess you are never going to stop more suggestible individuals from
getting drawn into the self-reinforcing stuff, be it islamic
radicalisation or something on the opposite wing. Which poses *really*
interesting and difficult questions of internet regulation.

Anyway, I'm calling for cynics and skeptics to unite under the 1660
motto of the Royal Society, "Nullius in verba"!

(For those without the benefit of a classical education, "Take nobody's
word for it").

"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
Unless you read it in the context of US (and possibly French and other
continental?) systems, where neutral isn't.

So in America and (parts of) mainland Europe, is neutral not connected to
earth potential at some point in the distribution chain?

I can see that a earthed-centre-tapped transformer for supplying 220V in
addition to (2x) 110V supply will have a higher potential between live and
neutral than between live and earth, and hence higher current, higher
ability to kill etc. But is the potential between 110V (or 220V in Europe)
live and neutral significantly greater than between live and earth?

On 17/04/2018 09:37, Brian Gaff wrote:

Incidentally has anyone here had an RF burn, that is most certainly one of
the worst pains I can recall.

Pain in a burn is good (FSVOgood).
Better not to get burned at all but a painful one is better than a numb
one that has gone deep.

Barely remembered first aid course stuff:-
It means the nerves are still intact enough to send pain messages to the
brain. A deep burn that has killed all the nerves in the surface layers
(3rd degree) doesn't hurt so much but the skin is a lot more damaged.

Anecdote :-
I remember him (the lecturer) telling us about what percentage of skin
cover each body part equaled, front of leg 10% etc adding up the whole
body only comes to 99% leading to lots of jokes about 1% rise etc.

Yes never let a radio ham use your very high location to run a station
without actually telling you he is attempting to load op a random bit of
wire dangling over a roof.

I still have a slight scar on my palm over 40 years later.


I gues it tends to cook the tissue!
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
Brian Gaff was thinking very hard :
Incidentally has anyone here had an RF burn, that is most certainly one
of the worst pains I can recall


--

Yes, lots of them. It can burn the skin, but also through to the
underlying tissue, as can HV.

Yes anyone remember the Wichita linemean? Spelling could be compromised in
this message. No letters were harmed while it was typed.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 03:58:20 +0100, Bill Wright
wrote:

"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line
is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just
the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to
neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground
will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current
draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Yes some of it is ******** but you are reading it from a UK point of view
and
might be interpreting it incorrectly.

They use centre tapped transformers for domestic supplies in the USA so
you have
a 110v - 0v - 110v presentation, with two lives at the 110v end of the
transformer at 180 degrees phase difference and a neutral point, also
being
earth at the centre tap.

You can thus have 110v loads from live to the centre tapped neutral and
circa
220v across the two lives, with no neutral connection.

It's extremely similar to the 110v 55v-0v-55v transformers used here in
the UK,
which when correctly wired have the centre tap properly earthed back to
what is
the local 240v supply earth.

You touch either of the live connections on the secondary and you get a
shock at
55v potential to ground.

You touch the centre point (equivalent of the neutral in the USA) and it's
very
close to zero volts with respect to the surrounding earthing / grounding
surfaces.

You contact both secondary 'lives' and you get a shock at 110v potential
difference with 55v potential difference to earth.





--

Yes right then, what was that song keep away from third rails?

If that spleen dump at the end was meant to say don't believe everything to
read anywhere then that is always the case, one mans truth is another mans
lie.


I don't believe in Ghosts but something picked up a pen and threw it at me
in an empty room when I was 14 years old.
There are things we do not understand, but ghosts are probably nothing to
do with it.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 17/04/2018 11:38, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/04/2018 03:58, Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it. Because neutral
doesn't have any current in it, but line does, you could say that line
is live. This explains why that you can be shocked from touching just
the line. You can't be by touching just the neutral or ground. Line to
neutral is the most deadliest if it travels across you. Line to ground
will tingle a lot, but it won't necessarily kill you because the current
draw isn't nearly as much as line to neutral."

from: http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_line_wir...lled_live_wire

Well its wrong on so many levels... the daft comment about line to earth
being less deadly than line to neutral is perhaps the stand out bit of
"dumbness"!



Unless you read it in the context of US (and possibly French and other
continental?) systems, where neutral isn't.

But yes, the problem of allowing idiots to crowdsource.

On a more philosophical point, I think it is fair to say that most of
"our" generation treats all traditional "advertising" as damned lies.

What I'd be interested to know is to what extent the snowflake generation
apply the same skepticism to anything on-line. A lot of people seem to be
quick to cry "Photoshop", but I worry whether the percentage is high
enough.

I guess you are never going to stop more suggestible individuals from
getting drawn into the self-reinforcing stuff, be it islamic
radicalisation or something on the opposite wing. Which poses *really*
interesting and difficult questions of internet regulation.

Anyway, I'm calling for cynics and skeptics to unite under the 1660 motto
of the Royal Society, "Nullius in verba"!

(For those without the benefit of a classical education, "Take nobody's
word for it").

In a lot of countries there is still earth at all. I encountered this in the
canary isles many years ago, and from reports I hear not a lot has changed.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
Unless you read it in the context of US (and possibly French and other
continental?) systems, where neutral isn't.

So in America and (parts of) mainland Europe, is neutral not connected to
earth potential at some point in the distribution chain?

I can see that a earthed-centre-tapped transformer for supplying 220V in
addition to (2x) 110V supply will have a higher potential between live and
neutral than between live and earth, and hence higher current, higher
ability to kill etc. But is the potential between 110V (or 220V in Europe)
live and neutral significantly greater than between live and earth?

On 17/04/2018 12:29, NY wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
Unless you read it in the context of US (and possibly French and other
continental?) systems, where neutral isn't.

So in America and (parts of) mainland Europe, is neutral not connected
to earth potential at some point in the distribution chain?

About the only situation where it might not be the case is with an IT
style feed from a generator or inverter. That may have both sides
floating with respect to true earth. I am not aware of any actual fixed
distribution systems that operate like that though.

I can see that a earthed-centre-tapped transformer for supplying 220V in
addition to (2x) 110V supply will have a higher potential between live
and neutral than between live and earth, and hence higher current,
higher ability to kill etc.

Yup you will get higher shock currents between the two ends of the
centre tapped transformer than between one end and the centre. However
both will be lethal in the wrong circumstance.

But is the potential between 110V (or 220V
in Europe) live and neutral significantly greater than between live and
earth?

No, if anything it may be slightly less (depending on the earthing
scheme). Under load the neutral will tend to rise a little in voltage
near the load end, and the line fall a bit, reducing the potential
difference. If the earth is independently connected back to the
transformer or substation (i.e. TN-S) Then it won't see this voltage rise.

(that's why a neutral to earth short often causes a RCD trip)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

AB

On 17/04/18 12:14, newshound wrote:
On a more philosophical point, I think it is fair to say that most of
"our" generation treats all traditional "advertising" as damned lies.

What I'd be interested to know is to what extent the snowflake
generation apply the same skepticism to anything on-line. A lot of
people seem to be quick to cry "Photoshop", but I worry whether the
percentage is high enough.

I guess you are never going to stop more suggestible individuals from
getting drawn into the self-reinforcing stuff, be it islamic
radicalisation or something on the opposite wing. Which poses *really*
interesting and difficult questions of internet regulation.

Anyway, I'm calling for cynics and skeptics to unite under the 1660
motto of the Royal Society, "Nullius in verba"!

(For those without the benefit of a classical education, "Take nobody's
word for it").

After careful consideration I now consider that 95% of what you read or
hear on the media and the internet is more or less total rubbish

The other 5% IS total rubbish.

The first question you ask is 'who paid this person to write this'





--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:27:55 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

If there's potential difference WRT ground it's live even if there's no
current. Neutral can also be slightly live. ;-)

On Wednesday, 18 April 2018 17:46:20 UTC+1, Rob Morley wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:27:55 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

If there's potential difference WRT ground it's live even if there's no
current. Neutral can also be slightly live. ;-)

neutral connections can be live at 240v no less. That's why a combined N&E is not normally permitted in domestic wiring.

The US used to permit it and I gather it was once common for kitchen cookers to have a combined N&E conductor. I hear the incidence of bad outcomes was near zero, but I don't have any direct access to stats to quote.


NT

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:46:17 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:27:55 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

If there's potential difference WRT ground it's live even if there's no
current. Neutral can also be slightly live. ;-)

To measure the potential difference you have to apply a load.

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,
.................................

AB

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 19:51:54 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

To measure the potential difference you have to apply a load.

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

If you don't apply a load the line is already live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,

I considered that aspect and decided it was mostly irrelevant to
domestic wiring issues.

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:46:17 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:27:55 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

If there's potential difference WRT ground it's live even if there's no
current. Neutral can also be slightly live. ;-)

To measure the potential difference you have to apply a load.

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,
................................

AB
In principle you do not have to apply a load, for instance a bridge
method can be used which while it may apply a minimal load, or a minimal
generator during adjustment has neither at balance.


--

Roger Hayter

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 03:13:48 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 19:51:54 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

To measure the potential difference you have to apply a load.

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

If you don't apply a load the line is already live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,

I considered that aspect and decided it was mostly irrelevant to
domestic wiring issues.

Why? Perfectly valid methinks.

The pussycat has been going since 1935 and still isn't dead, or alive
come to that.

So a bit of twin & earth might not be quite as old, but I'm sure the
same logic can be applied :-)

AB

On 18/04/2018 19:51, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,

Didn't know Rommel had a cat. ;O)

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:51:31 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:46:17 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:27:55 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

If there's potential difference WRT ground it's live even if there's no
current. Neutral can also be slightly live. ;-)

To measure the potential difference you have to apply a load.

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,
................................

AB
In principle you do not have to apply a load, for instance a bridge
method can be used which while it may apply a minimal load, or a minimal
generator during adjustment has neither at balance.

Only at the measuring device itself, the bridge must sink current.

Even a minimal load has affected the system, thus taking the conductor
into a condition where it has a potential, or not of course.

AB

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:51:31 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:46:17 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:27:55 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

If there's potential difference WRT ground it's live even if there's no
current. Neutral can also be slightly live. ;-)

To measure the potential difference you have to apply a load.

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,
................................

AB
In principle you do not have to apply a load, for instance a bridge
method can be used which while it may apply a minimal load, or a minimal
generator during adjustment has neither at balance.

Only at the measuring device itself, the bridge must sink current.

The bridge at one side of balance supplies current to the DUT and at the
other side of balance sinks it. It therefore passes through a point of
zero current at balance.


Even a minimal load has affected the system, thus taking the conductor
into a condition where it has a potential, or not of course.

AB


--

Roger Hayter

There is always about .6v drop on a diode as well and you have to load it to
see it I'd imagine as a very high impedance can measure voltages with the
lead just hanging close to an ac source.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Remember, if you don't like where I post
or what I say, you don't have to
read my posts! :-)
"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:51:31 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:46:17 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:27:55 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

If there's potential difference WRT ground it's live even if there's
no
current. Neutral can also be slightly live. ;-)

To measure the potential difference you have to apply a load.

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,
................................

AB
In principle you do not have to apply a load, for instance a bridge
method can be used which while it may apply a minimal load, or a minimal
generator during adjustment has neither at balance.

Only at the measuring device itself, the bridge must sink current.

The bridge at one side of balance supplies current to the DUT and at the
other side of balance sinks it. It therefore passes through a point of
zero current at balance.


Even a minimal load has affected the system, thus taking the conductor
into a condition where it has a potential, or not of course.

AB


--

Roger Hayter

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 12:36:29 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:51:31 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:46:17 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:27:55 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

If there's potential difference WRT ground it's live even if there's no
current. Neutral can also be slightly live. ;-)

To measure the potential difference you have to apply a load.

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,
................................

AB
In principle you do not have to apply a load, for instance a bridge
method can be used which while it may apply a minimal load, or a minimal
generator during adjustment has neither at balance.

Only at the measuring device itself, the bridge must sink current.

The bridge at one side of balance supplies current to the DUT and at the
other side of balance sinks it. It therefore passes through a point of
zero current at balance.


Correct, it depends how the bridge is configured of course.

As the observation has been made, it has affected the measured circuit
thus the the cable has become live, or not.

A bit like sticking a bowl of milk into tiddles safe, it may not be
touched, but the interaction means that Tiddles is alive, or dead
maybe.

AB

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 12:36:29 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:51:31 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:46:17 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:27:55 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

If there's potential difference WRT ground it's live even if there's no
current. Neutral can also be slightly live. ;-)

To measure the potential difference you have to apply a load.

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,
................................

AB
In principle you do not have to apply a load, for instance a bridge
method can be used which while it may apply a minimal load, or a minimal
generator during adjustment has neither at balance.

Only at the measuring device itself, the bridge must sink current.

The bridge at one side of balance supplies current to the DUT and at the
other side of balance sinks it. It therefore passes through a point of
zero current at balance.


Correct, it depends how the bridge is configured of course.

As the observation has been made, it has affected the measured circuit
thus the the cable has become live, or not.

A bit like sticking a bowl of milk into tiddles safe, it may not be
touched, but the interaction means that Tiddles is alive, or dead
maybe.

AB

No, you are simply wrong. The potential (emf) on wire is there totally
irrespective of current flow into a measuring instrument or anywhere
else. There are no quantum effects on the scale involved. For
instance, if the voltage is high enough you will get corona effects
regardless of current flow.

--

Roger Hayter

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 17:56:05 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 12:36:29 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:51:31 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:46:17 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:27:55 +0100
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

If there's potential difference WRT ground it's live even if there's no
current. Neutral can also be slightly live. ;-)

To measure the potential difference you have to apply a load.

When you apply a load, the line becomes live or dead.

Now my mate Erwin has an iffy pussycat,
................................

AB
In principle you do not have to apply a load, for instance a bridge
method can be used which while it may apply a minimal load, or a minimal
generator during adjustment has neither at balance.

Only at the measuring device itself, the bridge must sink current.

The bridge at one side of balance supplies current to the DUT and at the
other side of balance sinks it. It therefore passes through a point of
zero current at balance.


Correct, it depends how the bridge is configured of course.

As the observation has been made, it has affected the measured circuit
thus the the cable has become live, or not.

A bit like sticking a bowl of milk into tiddles safe, it may not be
touched, but the interaction means that Tiddles is alive, or dead
maybe.

AB

No, you are simply wrong. The potential (emf) on wire is there totally
irrespective of current flow into a measuring instrument or anywhere
else. There are no quantum effects on the scale involved. For
instance, if the voltage is high enough you will get corona effects
regardless of current flow.

Emmission of photons, interaction with the observer.

You must have current flow to get a corona incidentally.

A corona tends to be avoided by Electricity suppliers, perhaps not as
wasteful as direct arcing, it does waste power.

AB

On Sunday, 22 April 2018 22:13:16 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 17:56:05 +0100, (Roger Hayter)

You must have current flow to get a corona incidentally.

A corona tends to be avoided by Electricity suppliers, perhaps not as
wasteful as direct arcing, it does waste power.

AB

they waste money but ISTR them tasting ok, at least to a kid


NT

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/04/18 17:23, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).



Well its the nym shifting Pork Sword innit?

What do you expect?


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp