On 13/03/2018 03:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...lly-uk-brexit/


"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to €œbully€�
the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the split of
Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the referendum, 67€‰
per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting preference, agreed
that €œthe EU is trying to bully the UK€� in its approach to the talks."




And what can we do with the Russians in retaliation for using nerve gas
on our soil?

Withdraw the England team from the world cup, **** them with a handbag?

And least when we were fighting the Europeans in the 1900's (AKA helping
the French out again) the Russians were on our side.

--
Adam

On 13/03/2018 21:39, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 13-Mar-18 7:27 PM, tim... wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Mar-18 11:30 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/03/18 09:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...eople-believe-

eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/

"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
Â*€œbully€� the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the
split of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the
referendum, 67per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting
preference, agreed that €œthe EU is trying to bully the UK€� in its
approach to the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them to
do: put the interests of the EU and its citizens before those of
Britain.

It isn't though is it?

Its acting entirely in its OWN interest. German manufacturers are
aghast at the possibility of a hard brexit, so is Italy. And yet
Brussels is pursuing a course that will inevitably end there...

Only if the internal politics of the Conservative party force that
result, which they might.

so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to
be forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

The sensible solution would be to stay in the single market ...

Wouldn't be brexit then, would it.


Its just a trade deal, brexiteers say we can have them with anyone.

In article , Nightjar
writes
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-people-believ
e-eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/ "Two in three people believe the
European Union is attempting to €œbully€� the UK in the Brexit
negotiations, according to a new poll.
A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the split
of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the referendum,
67? per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting preference,
agreed that €œthe EU is trying to bully the UK€� in its approach to
the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them to do:
put the interests of the EU and its citizens before those of Britain.
Any impression that this is bullying is down to the false claims of the
Leave campaign about how easy Brexit would be and that they need us
more than we need them.


Putting the EU first - yes. It couldn't give a s*** about its citizens.
--
bert

On 13/03/2018 20:12, pamela wrote:
On 16:49 13 Mar 2018, Andrew wrote:

On 13/03/2018 11:54, dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2018 10:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ÂÂ*ÂÂ*ÂÂ* Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/10/
two-three-people-believe-eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/



"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting
to €�bully€¢
the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the
split of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since
the referendum, 67# per cent of individuals, regardless of
their voting preference, agreed that €�the EU is trying to
bully the UK€¢ in its approach to the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them
to do: put the interests of the EU and its citizens before
those of Britain. Any impression that this is bullying is down
to the false claims of the Leave campaign about how easy Brexit
would be and that they need us more than we need them.

Quite. And now it has been shown just how wrong those optimists
were, they
cry foul.


Brexiteers are always going to blame anything that goes wrong on
someone else.

So far, all the dire predictions by the likes of Osborne have yet
to materialise. Nor has the US economy collapsed, so Trump might,
just, get away with it.

I just have this funny feeling Trump might not get away with it.

In fact it's not certain he will serve his full term as president.

He could well be re-elected.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well the EU seems to want to go back to the 19th century German Empire.

whereas then Brexiteers want rto go back to the Victorian British Empire.


No, we want to go forward to a 21st century global society .

'We' may well want to. What seems to be lacking is other large economies
around the world wanting to join us.


Not stay stuck in a colonial model

Meaning all that talk of how our former colonies are so eager to have a
special trade deal with us was just so much bull****?

--
*No hand signals. Driver on Viagra*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
tim... wrote:
so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

The EU didn't bring about this situation. It is entirely down to the UK.
And was warned about - but ignored - in the run up to Brexit. Just another
of those things Brexiteers prayed would be easily sorted.

Bit like telling a child not to put their hand in a flame - they'll get
burned. But they do it anyway.

--
*It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
That's rather like saying it would be OK to knock down one of the pillars
holding up a bridge. As the remaining ones can do the job just as well.

If the EU needs us to hold it up, we don't want to be in it.

Didn't think you'd get the point about strength in numbers.

--
*Keep honking...I'm reloading.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 14/03/18 00:43, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

The EU didn't bring about this situation. It is entirely down to the UK.
And was warned about - but ignored - in the run up to Brexit. Just another
of those things Brexiteers prayed would be easily sorted.

Bit like telling a child not to put their hand in a flame - they'll get
burned. But they do it anyway.

And those children grow up to be less afraid of the unknown, probably
achieving more than the coddled. If everyone heeded dire warnings, there
would be no progress.

For your benefit, I am saying:
"And those children grow up to be less afraid of the unknown, probably
achieving more than the coddled. If everyone heeded dire warnings, there
would be no progress."

On 13/03/2018 19:27, tim... wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Mar-18 11:30 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/03/18 09:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...lly-uk-brexit/


"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
Â*€œbully€� the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the split
of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the
referendum, 67per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting
preference, agreed that €œthe EU is trying to bully the UK€� in its
approach to the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them to do:
put the interests of the EU and its citizens before those of Britain.

It isn't though is it?

Its acting entirely in its OWN interest. German manufacturers are
aghast at the possibility of a hard brexit, so is Italy. And yet
Brussels is pursuing a course that will inevitably end there...

Only if the internal politics of the Conservative party force that
result, which they might.

so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

tim



Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and see
Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

On 14/03/18 08:28, Tufnell Park wrote:
Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and see
Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

We should just annex S Ireland.



--
€œSome people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of €¨an airplane.€�

Dennis Miller

Tufnell Park wrote:

On 13/03/2018 19:27, tim... wrote:




so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

tim



Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and see
Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

If so, what an excellent idea! I'm sure we could repatriate any who
don't like the idea.

--

Roger Hayter

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 00:45:45 +0000 (GMT), Dave Lowman (News) wrote:


Didn't think you'd get the point about strength in numbers.

Troll-feeding idiot!

On 13-Mar-18 9:39 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 13-Mar-18 7:27 PM, tim... wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Mar-18 11:30 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/03/18 09:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...eople-believe-

eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/

"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
Â*€œbully€� the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the
split of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the
referendum, 67per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting
preference, agreed that €œthe EU is trying to bully the UK€� in its
approach to the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them to
do: put the interests of the EU and its citizens before those of
Britain.

It isn't though is it?

Its acting entirely in its OWN interest. German manufacturers are
aghast at the possibility of a hard brexit, so is Italy. And yet
Brussels is pursuing a course that will inevitably end there...

Only if the internal politics of the Conservative party force that
result, which they might.

so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to
be forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

The sensible solution would be to stay in the single market ...

Wouldn't be brexit then, would it.


It might not be your personal vision of Brexit, but we will have left
the EU, which was the only question on the referendum. Whatever
Brexiteers may think they voted for, there was no question in the
referendum about freedom of movement, or our membership of the single
market, the customs union, Euratom, Europol (insert a large collection
of acronyms here) or our cooperation with Europe in the fight against
terrorism. All of those (and even whether we would leave at all) are
decisions that are up to the government in power.



--
--

Colin Bignell

On 14/03/18 09:22, Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 9:39 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 13-Mar-18 7:27 PM, tim... wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Mar-18 11:30 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/03/18 09:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...eople-believe-

eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/

"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
Â*€œbully€� the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new
poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the
split of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the
referendum, 67per cent of individuals, regardless of their
voting preference, agreed that €œthe EU is trying to bully the
UK€� in its approach to the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them to
do: put the interests of the EU and its citizens before those of
Britain.

It isn't though is it?

Its acting entirely in its OWN interest. German manufacturers are
aghast at the possibility of a hard brexit, so is Italy. And yet
Brussels is pursuing a course that will inevitably end there...

Only if the internal politics of the Conservative party force that
result, which they might.

so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear
to be forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

The sensible solution would be to stay in the single market ...

Wouldn't be brexit then, would it.


It might not be your personal vision of Brexit, but we will have left
the EU, which was the only question on the referendum. Whatever
Brexiteers may think they voted for, there was no question in the
referendum about freedom of movement, or our membership of the single
market, the customs union, Euratom, Europol (insert a large collection
of acronyms here) or our cooperation with Europe in the fight against
terrorism. All of those (and even whether we would leave at all) are
decisions that are up to the government in power.


No, in fact as we are seeing they are *up to the EU*, which is saying
'no' to all of the above unless we are effectively still in the EU,
paying more but with no say whatsoever (so nothing new there, then) and
no representation at all.





--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

In article ,
Richard wrote:
On 14/03/18 00:43, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

The EU didn't bring about this situation. It is entirely down to the UK.
And was warned about - but ignored - in the run up to Brexit. Just another
of those things Brexiteers prayed would be easily sorted.

Bit like telling a child not to put their hand in a flame - they'll get
burned. But they do it anyway.

And those children grow up to be less afraid of the unknown, probably
achieving more than the coddled. If everyone heeded dire warnings, there
would be no progress.

For your benefit, I am saying:
"And those children grow up to be less afraid of the unknown, probably
achieving more than the coddled. If everyone heeded dire warnings, there
would be no progress."

I suppose it is at least progress that you think people should learn by
their mistakes. I'd be quite happy if that only applied to you and the
likes of you, through leaving the EU.

But I'd rather not have my circumstances dictated by those who don't heed
dire warnings.

--
*If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/18 08:28, Tufnell Park wrote:
Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and
see Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

We should just annex S Ireland.

From: The Natural Philosopher
Subject: Even remoaners are not completely stupid...
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 17:25
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

No, we want to go forward to a 21st century global society . Not stay
stuck in a colonial model

--
*The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 14/03/2018 09:12, Roger Hayter wrote:
Tufnell Park wrote:

On 13/03/2018 19:27, tim... wrote:




so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

tim



Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and see
Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

If so, what an excellent idea! I'm sure we could repatriate any who
don't like the idea.

Only a good idea if you want the likes Gerry Adams as the next PM of
Ireland.

Tufnell Park wrote:

On 14/03/2018 09:12, Roger Hayter wrote:
Tufnell Park wrote:

On 13/03/2018 19:27, tim... wrote:




so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

tim



Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and see
Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

If so, what an excellent idea! I'm sure we could repatriate any who
don't like the idea.

Only a good idea if you want the likes Gerry Adams as the next PM of
Ireland.

That's their business - don't see that it would affect us.

--

Roger Hayter

On 14/03/18 09:46, Tufnell Park wrote:
On 14/03/2018 09:12, Roger Hayter wrote:
Tufnell Park wrote:

On 13/03/2018 19:27, tim... wrote:




so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear
to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

tim



Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and see
Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

If so, what an excellent idea!Â*Â* I'm sure we could repatriate any who
don't like the idea.

Only a good idea if you want the likes Gerry Adams as the next PM of
Ireland.

Since MI5 knows where all the bodies are buried, and Gerry knows that
they know, and since there never was a 'peace and reconciliation' Gerry
is allowed to bluster, but he was brought to te table by pressure...and
he is still able to be blackmailed or destroyed or charged with murder.

The price of life was that they brought peace.


--
Of what good are dead warriors? €¦ Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory €¦ The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Mar-18 7:27 PM, tim... wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Mar-18 11:30 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/03/18 09:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...lly-uk-brexit/

"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
€œbully€� the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the split
of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the referendum,
67per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting preference,
agreed that €œthe EU is trying to bully the UK€� in its approach to the
talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them to do:
put the interests of the EU and its citizens before those of Britain.

It isn't though is it?

Its acting entirely in its OWN interest. German manufacturers are
aghast at the possibility of a hard brexit, so is Italy. And yet
Brussels is pursuing a course that will inevitably end there...

Only if the internal politics of the Conservative party force that
result, which they might.

so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

The sensible solution would be to stay in the single market,

With full FoM, paying (disproportionately) into the EU coffers and having to
implement all EU rules (on everything, not just trade) under ECJ
jurisdiction - no chance

I see being in but May's back benchers don't want that,

Nor does any leaver, the above are the fundamental things that caused us to
vote to leave

it is NOT an acceptable solution by light years. It is leaving in name
only - worse that staying in.

(perhaps you meant to say Customs Union?)

while the DUP don't want a border in the Irish Sea.

Even if the DUP didn't hold the casting vote here, do you really think
that's an acceptable solution?

Either way, it comes down to internal party politics.

No. it comes done to what's an acceptable result for leaving.

tim

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Mar-18 9:39 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 13-Mar-18 7:27 PM, tim... wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Mar-18 11:30 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/03/18 09:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...eople-believe-
eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/

"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
€œbully€� the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the split
of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the
referendum, 67per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting
preference, agreed that €œthe EU is trying to bully the UK€� in its
approach to the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them to do:
put the interests of the EU and its citizens before those of
Britain.

It isn't though is it?

Its acting entirely in its OWN interest. German manufacturers are
aghast at the possibility of a hard brexit, so is Italy. And yet
Brussels is pursuing a course that will inevitably end there...

Only if the internal politics of the Conservative party force that
result, which they might.

so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to
be forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

The sensible solution would be to stay in the single market ...

Wouldn't be brexit then, would it.


It might not be your personal vision of Brexit, but we will have left the
EU, which was the only question on the referendum. Whatever Brexiteers may
think they voted for, there was no question in the referendum about
freedom of movement, or our membership of the single market, the customs
union, Euratom, Europol (insert a large collection of acronyms here) or
our cooperation with Europe in the fight against terrorism. All of those
(and even whether we would leave at all) are decisions that are up to the
government in power.

but there was in the campaign literature, and that's what peoe vote for

We don't vote in national elections because we prefer to have a person named
Smith instead of one named Jones as our MP

we vote for their manifesto. And we have every right to expect them too
honour that manifesto when they are elected.

a referendum is the same

any other interpretation is cheating

tim

"Tufnell Park" wrote in message
news
On 13/03/2018 19:27, tim... wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Mar-18 11:30 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/03/18 09:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...lly-uk-brexit/

"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
€œbully€� the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the split
of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the referendum,
67per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting preference,
agreed that €œthe EU is trying to bully the UK€� in its approach to the
talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them to do:
put the interests of the EU and its citizens before those of Britain.

It isn't though is it?

Its acting entirely in its OWN interest. German manufacturers are
aghast at the possibility of a hard brexit, so is Italy. And yet
Brussels is pursuing a course that will inevitably end there...

Only if the internal politics of the Conservative party force that
result, which they might.

so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

tim



Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and the
EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and see Brexit
as a means of acheiving it.

I know that

the point is that we are discussing whether the EU is bullying us or not

and the argument put forward by some is that's "just par for the course" and
that we should have expected it.

and my point is that the EU are bullying us because they are trying to force
a position where we must chose ether one of two unpalatable solutions to the
NI problem, before being allowed to discussing the future EU/UK trade
agreements,

when the solution to the NI problem is easily solved within those EU/UK
trade agreements.

tim

"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
Tufnell Park wrote:

On 13/03/2018 19:27, tim... wrote:




so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to
be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

tim



Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and see
Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

If so, what an excellent idea!

except it will annoy 50% of the population

I'm sure we could repatriate any who
don't like the idea.

I don't think we could - perhaps we could build them an artificial island in
the Irish sea?

tim

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 07:05 13 Mar 2018, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 03:51:33 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...hree-people-be
lieve-eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/

"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
"bully" the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new
poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the
split of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the
referendum, 67?per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting
preference, agreed that "the EU is trying to bully the UK" in its
approach to the talks."

Why bother with the poll, Brexit is happening and we have been
informed that Britain will be much better off outside the EU.

The trade deals are rolling in and the EU is almost totally
superflous.

Which trade deals are you thinking of?

ITYF that wins you a

wooooosh

tim

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 16:49 13 Mar 2018, Andrew wrote:

On 13/03/2018 11:54, dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2018 10:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
   Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/10/
two-three-people-believe-eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/



"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting
to ?�bully?¢
the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the
split of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since
the referendum, 67# per cent of individuals, regardless of
their voting preference, agreed that ?�the EU is trying to
bully the UK?¢ in its approach to the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them
to do: put the interests of the EU and its citizens before
those of Britain. Any impression that this is bullying is down
to the false claims of the Leave campaign about how easy Brexit
would be and that they need us more than we need them.

Quite. And now it has been shown just how wrong those optimists
were, they
cry foul.


Brexiteers are always going to blame anything that goes wrong on
someone else.

So far, all the dire predictions by the likes of Osborne have yet
to materialise. Nor has the US economy collapsed, so Trump might,
just, get away with it.

I just have this funny feeling Trump might not get away with it.

In fact it's not certain he will serve his full term as president.

Short of his having a heart attack, there are no easy ways to remove him

tim

On 14/03/18 10:22, Martin wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 16:49:15 +0000, Andrew
wrote:

On 13/03/2018 11:54, dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2018 10:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...lly-uk-brexit/



"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
€�bully€¢
the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the split of
Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the referendum, 67#
per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting preference, agreed
that €�the EU is trying to bully the UK€¢ in its approach to the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them to do: put
the interests of the EU and its citizens before those of Britain. Any
impression that this is bullying is down to the false claims of the
Leave campaign about how easy Brexit would be and that they need us more
than we need them.

Quite. And now it has been shown just how wrong those optimists were,
they
cry foul.


Brexiteers are always going to blame anything that goes wrong on someone
else.

So far, all the dire predictions by the likes of Osborne have yet to
materialise. Nor has the US economy collapsed, so Trump might, just,
get away with it.

So the value of the pound hasn't plummeted and food prices haven't increased?

Oh dear.

What blatant cherry picking.

So the amount of unemployed hasnt plummeted, and the export level
hasn't imnproved dramatically?

WHY are ytou so desperate to prove that leaving the EU was a disaster?
It wasnt, it isn't and it won't be.

Its just different. And it will take a decade before the real effects
are noticed. And that will depend on what government the UK elects.
Corbyn of course would destroy the UK and the the Limp Dims would say
'we should join Europe again'



--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

On 14/03/18 10:35, tim... wrote:


"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
Tufnell Park wrote:

On 13/03/2018 19:27, tim... wrote:




so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear
to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

tim



Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and see
Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

If so, what an excellent idea!

except it will annoy 50% of the population
#
Well Tony Blair annoyed around 75%

And according to polls feminist legislation annoys around 80%.



Â* I'm sure we could repatriate any who
don't like the idea.

I don't think we could - perhaps we could build them an artificial
island in the Irish sea?

tim





--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
Wouldn't be brexit then, would it.


It might not be your personal vision of Brexit, but we will have left
the EU, which was the only question on the referendum. Whatever
Brexiteers may think they voted for, there was no question in the
referendum about freedom of movement, or our membership of the single
market, the customs union, Euratom, Europol (insert a large collection
of acronyms here) or our cooperation with Europe in the fight against
terrorism. All of those (and even whether we would leave at all) are
decisions that are up to the government in power.

Not really a surprise given so many of the rabid Brexiteers on here can't
agree on what they want. Most *seem* to want tariff free trade with the
EU, but haven't clue on how this might be achieved.

--
*If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 18:47:16 +0000, Tufnell Park
wrote:

snip

I wonder which countries we will look to re support against Russia?

I can see all of the EU turning their backs on us just, as we are
doing to them.

Not so, the EU and US have today announced full backing for the UK's
stance against Russia.

Well, the words are looking good at least with 'the 29 countries
offering full support' etc.

Just think how much less 'strong' it might sound if / when it's just
us on our own?

I guess there are times when being in a gang can have it's advantages,
especially in these unstable times?

Cheers, T i m

On 14/03/2018 10:38, tim... wrote:


"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 16:49Â* 13 Mar 2018, Andrew wrote:

On 13/03/2018 11:54, dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2018 10:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
  ÂÂ* Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/10/
two-three-people-believe-eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/



"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting
to â?�bullyâ?¢
the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the
split of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since
the referendum, 67# per cent of individuals, regardless of
their voting preference, agreed that â?�the EU is trying to
bully the UKâ?¢ in its approach to the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them
to do: put the interests of the EU and its citizens before
those of Britain. Any impression that this is bullying is down
to the false claims of the Leave campaign about how easy Brexit
would be and that they need us more than we need them.

Quite. And now it has been shown just how wrong those optimists
were, they
cry foul.


Brexiteers are always going to blame anything that goes wrong on
someone else.

So far, all the dire predictions by the likes of Osborne have yet
to materialise. Nor has the US economy collapsed, so Trump might,
just, get away with it.

I just have this funny feeling Trump might not get away with it.

In fact it's not certain he will serve his full term as president.

Short of his having a heart attack, there are no easy ways to remove him


They got rid of one after he nearly started WW3 over cuba.

On 14/03/2018 11:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/18 10:22, Martin wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 16:49:15 +0000, Andrew

wrote:

On 13/03/2018 11:54, dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2018 10:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...lly-uk-brexit/




"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
€�bully€¢
the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the
split of
Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the
referendum, 67#
per cent of individuals, regardless of their voting preference,
agreed
that €�the EU is trying to bully the UK€¢ in its approach to the
talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them to
do: put
the interests of the EU and its citizens before those of Britain. Any
impression that this is bullying is down to the false claims of the
Leave campaign about how easy Brexit would be and that they need
us more
than we need them.

Quite. And now it has been shown just how wrong those optimists were,
they
cry foul.


Brexiteers are always going to blame anything that goes wrong on
someone
else.

So far, all the dire predictions by the likes of Osborne have yet to
materialise. Nor has the US economy collapsed, so Trump might, just,
get away with it.

So the value of the pound hasn't plummeted and food prices haven't
increased?

Oh dear.

What blatant cherry picking.

So the amount of unemployedÂ* hasnt plummeted,

Correct for once, it hasn't plummeted.


and the exportÂ* level
hasn't imnproved dramatically?

Also correct it hasn't improved dramatically.


TNP is learning.

On 14/03/18 13:50, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 13-Mar-18 9:39 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

The sensible solution would be to stay in the single market ...

Wouldn't be brexit then, would it.

It might not be your personal vision of Brexit, but we will have left
the EU, which was the only question on the referendum. Whatever
Brexiteers may think they voted for, there was no question in the
referendum about freedom of movement, or our membership of the single
market, the customs union, Euratom, Europol (insert a large collection
of acronyms here) or our cooperation with Europe in the fight against
terrorism. All of those (and even whether we would leave at all) are
decisions that are up to the government in power.

That's pure sophistry.

It's all remeoaners have left.

It was only a majority, not everyone
It was only advisory it carries no legal weight
We can leave the EU but stay in everythng the EU made us join as part of
being in the EU, obey all the EU rules and have even less say in their
formulation, and pay the EU even more.

Or we can commit political economic and cultural suicide by leaving
without a deal and become like....the United States!


--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On Wednesday, 14 March 2018 10:29:58 UTC, tim... wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Mar-18 9:39 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

The sensible solution would be to stay in the single market ...

Wouldn't be brexit then, would it.


It might not be your personal vision of Brexit, but we will have left the
EU, which was the only question on the referendum. Whatever Brexiteers may
think they voted for, there was no question in the referendum about
freedom of movement, or our membership of the single market, the customs
union, Euratom, Europol (insert a large collection of acronyms here) or
our cooperation with Europe in the fight against terrorism. All of those
(and even whether we would leave at all) are decisions that are up to the
government in power.

but there was in the campaign literature, and that's what peoe vote for

We don't vote in national elections because we prefer to have a person named
Smith instead of one named Jones as our MP

we vote for their manifesto. And we have every right to expect them too
honour that manifesto when they are elected.

you're free to expect it, even if it's a bit naive.

a referendum is the same

any other interpretation is cheating

tim

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 10:37 14 Mar 2018, tim... wrote:



"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 07:05 13 Mar 2018, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 03:51:33 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-three-people-
be lieve-eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/

"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting to
"bully" the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new
poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the
split of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since the
referendum, 67?per cent of individuals, regardless of their
voting preference, agreed that "the EU is trying to bully the
UK" in its approach to the talks."

Why bother with the poll, Brexit is happening and we have been
informed that Britain will be much better off outside the EU.

The trade deals are rolling in and the EU is almost totally
superflous.

Which trade deals are you thinking of?

ITYF that wins you a

wooooosh

tim

Throw in a smiley next time!

It wasn't me who wrote the original

tim

In article ,
tim... wrote:
and my point is that the EU are bullying us because they are trying to
force a position where we must chose ether one of two unpalatable
solutions to the NI problem, before being allowed to discussing the
future EU/UK trade agreements,

when the solution to the NI problem is easily solved within those EU/UK
trade agreements.

Go on then, explain how. Will give endless fun shooting holes in your
hypothesis.

Please explain how we can have 'control over our borders' which seems so
important to brexiteers, with one of them open between an EU and non EU
country.

--
*Time is fun when you're having flies... Kermit

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
Wouldn't be brexit then, would it.


It might not be your personal vision of Brexit, but we will have left
the EU, which was the only question on the referendum. Whatever
Brexiteers may think they voted for, there was no question in the
referendum about freedom of movement, or our membership of the single
market, the customs union, Euratom, Europol (insert a large collection
of acronyms here) or our cooperation with Europe in the fight against
terrorism. All of those (and even whether we would leave at all) are
decisions that are up to the government in power.

Not really a surprise given so many of the rabid Brexiteers on here can't
agree on what they want. Most *seem* to want tariff free trade with the
EU, but haven't clue on how this might be achieved.

an FTA

which they have indicated that they are minded to give us

provided that we roll over and give them control of NI first.

Do you really believe that this "land grab" is an acceptable position for
the EU to take here?

tim

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Roger Hayter
wrote:

Tufnell Park wrote:

On 13/03/2018 19:27, tim... wrote:

so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU appear to
be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and see
Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

If so, what an excellent idea! I'm sure we could repatriate any who
don't like the idea.

Perhaps you could go into a bit more detail about what you meant by
"repatriate".

All of the "illegal" "transplantees" who are the cause of the problem here.

If we hadn't have Anglified NI in the first place, it would have left the
Union in 1919 (was it) along with the south

tim

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 14/03/2018 10:38, tim... wrote:


"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 16:49 13 Mar 2018, Andrew wrote:

On 13/03/2018 11:54, dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2018 10:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
   Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Mar-18 3:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/10/
two-three-people-believe-eu-trying-bully-uk-brexit/



"Two in three people believe the European Union is attempting
to â?�bullyâ?¢
the UK in the Brexit negotiations, according to a new poll.

A survey carried out for the Telegraph reveals that while the
split of Leave and Remain voters is largely unchanged since
the referendum, 67# per cent of individuals, regardless of
their voting preference, agreed that â?�the EU is trying to
bully the UKâ?¢ in its approach to the talks."

The EU is doing what any intelligent person would expect them
to do: put the interests of the EU and its citizens before
those of Britain. Any impression that this is bullying is down
to the false claims of the Leave campaign about how easy Brexit
would be and that they need us more than we need them.

Quite. And now it has been shown just how wrong those optimists
were, they
cry foul.


Brexiteers are always going to blame anything that goes wrong on
someone else.

So far, all the dire predictions by the likes of Osborne have yet
to materialise. Nor has the US economy collapsed, so Trump might,
just, get away with it.

I just have this funny feeling Trump might not get away with it.

In fact it's not certain he will serve his full term as president.

Short of his having a heart attack, there are no easy ways to remove him


They got rid of one after he nearly started WW3 over cuba.

you think

a) that was his fault
b) that was the reason

tim

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
and my point is that the EU are bullying us because they are trying to
force a position where we must chose ether one of two unpalatable
solutions to the NI problem, before being allowed to discussing the
future EU/UK trade agreements,

when the solution to the NI problem is easily solved within those EU/UK
trade agreements.

Go on then, explain how. Will give endless fun shooting holes in your
hypothesis.

Please explain how we can have 'control over our borders' which seems so
important to brexiteers, with one of them open between an EU and non EU
country.

Oh my god, not again.

The "control over our borders" that we (apparently all Brexiteers) require
is for people. (Which because we are not going to restrict movement for
tourism/business will be enforced at point of potential
employment/housing/benefits/etc.)

The issue that the EU are objecting to with the NI border is movement of
GOODS (specifically the backdoor importation of non compliant products.)

tim

On 14/03/2018 15:30, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Roger Hayter
wrote:

Tufnell Park wrote:

On 13/03/2018 19:27, tim... wrote:

so which of the two unpalatable solutions to NI that the EU
appear to be
forcing us to choose between, would you choose?

Neither, it's not about trade that could be easily sorted. Ireland and
the EU are looking for 're-unification' by the back door method and
see
Brexit as a means of acheiving it.

If so, what an excellent idea!Â*Â* I'm sure we could repatriate any who
don't like the idea.

Perhaps you could go into a bit more detail about what you meant by
"repatriate".

All of the "illegal" "transplantees" who are the cause of the problem
here.

If we hadn't have Anglified NI in the first place, it would have left
the Union in 1919 (was it) along with the south

So on this argument we could abolish Israel. We could also return the
Americas to the "native" indians who were in all parts of the Americas
before any European arrived, and send all the pesky Saxons etc back to
Germany.

Sounds like a plan.


Depopulating the world and returning everyone to Ethiopia sounds a
better plan.
It would suit environmentalists and TNP as he will have the war he wants.